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Stealing from some random poor village isn't really going to be worth your time at 3rd level, but you are not powerful enough to try and hack your way into the kings treasury. You've got a dagger that can cut through most material and the clothes on your back. If you are a rogue...and you have enough stealth... you might be able to sneak into some noble or rich merchants summer home to steal some baubles... maybe.
I never asked about "some random poor village", I asked about a government -- let's say for a medium-size kingdom.
For example, the gov't building that houses property records. Some 3rd level PC (based on Lokie's statement) crawls through the sewers underneath and chisels up into the area where property records are kept. Once there he modifies said records so that friends of his are now large property owners.
How does a GOVERNMENT protect against such a thing?
They can't go around having permanent walls of force erected around every building. And any idiot with an adamantine toothpick and break through ANY mundane security they might have...
Stealing from some random poor village isn't really going to be worth your time at 3rd level, but you are not powerful enough to try and hack your way into the kings treasury. You've got a dagger that can cut through most material and the clothes on your back. If you are a rogue...and you have enough stealth... you might be able to sneak into some noble or rich merchants summer home to steal some baubles... maybe.I never asked about "some random poor village", I asked about a government -- let's say for a medium-size kingdom.
For example, the gov't building that houses property records. Some 3rd level PC (based on Lokie's statement) crawls through the sewers underneath and chisels up into the area where property records are kept. Once there he modifies said records so that friends of his are now large property owners.
How does a GOVERNMENT protect against such a thing?
They can't go around having permanent walls of force erected around every building. And any idiot with an adamantine toothpick and break through ANY mundane security they might have...
Seriously... whats stopping said character from doing that with normal steel tools? Steel can cut stone just fine and using proper tools would carve stone nearly as fast as your adamantine toothpick.
Whats stopping the same 3rd level character from just impersonating an office worker and sneaking in to substitute forgeries of any government paperwork? (That'd be allot easier, leave a heck of allot less evidence, and require far less physical toil.)
P.S. - "Any idiot" with a adamantine toothpick is more than likely going to get caught trying to chisel into a building or have said building collapse on him anyway. Reminds me of worlds stupidest criminals and people getting caught in air ducts trying to sneak into buildings and calling emergency services to get them out.
Also Mundane defenses still include patrols which will notice some jerk trying to cut his way in. Again with the collapsing things in on himself, the knowing where he is going, and the simply solution of the harden spell (core spell adds to hardness is permanent)
Beyond that even if the guy with the toothpick is ignoring hardness, he still must get through the several hundred hit points the stone has. That's going to take more than a round or two even for a level 20 fighter. That will be loud.
Beyond that? The golems that guard the vaults, the fact that in a kingdom most of the wealth isn't actually in a vault... it's the land owned, the fortifications built, the luxuries of the mansions, the food in the farms, the slaves/serfs/thralls it owns, the ships of the navies, the equipment of the armies, et al.
Wealth is very rarely in the form of currency.
If you want "realism" you need to embrace all of that "realism".
Not that these points weren't addressed before... you simply ignored them the first, second and subsequent times they were brought up.
Actually, there's a spell for exactly this question: Repel Wood.
There could be some argument as to whether a stalk of celery counts as wood, but since it's the fleshy stalk of a plant, and can even be noted to have woody filaments, it should reasonably count.
In any case, the spell creates an irresistible force which pushes the wood directly away from the druid at 40 MPH.
40 MPH is not particularly fast, but is fast enough to cause some damage. Now, assuming the druid has a friend ready to drop a sufficient quantity of celery into the path of his Repulsion, it might be possible to bombard an adamantium door with it. It would probably do more damage if it were frozen first, but Plant Growth and Wall of Ice would take care of that, giving the druid numerous blocks of frozen celery to hurl at the door.
I'm not sure how long it would take, but eventually some damage is enough damage.
Actually, there's a spell for exactly this question: Repel Wood.
There could be some argument as to whether a stalk of celery counts as wood, but since it's the fleshy stalk of a plant, and can even be noted to have woody filaments, it should reasonably count.
In any case, the spell creates an irresistible force which pushes the wood directly away from the druid at 40 MPH.
40 MPH is not particularly fast, but is fast enough to cause some damage. Now, assuming the druid has a friend ready to drop a sufficient quantity of celery into the path of his Repulsion, it might be possible to bombard an adamantium door with it. It would probably do more damage if it were frozen first, but Plant Growth and Wall of Ice would take care of that, giving the druid numerous blocks of frozen celery to hurl at the door.
I'm not sure how long it would take, but eventually some damage is enough damage.
Yet... at that point you are working on the hardness of ice which equates to that of steel. (just enough that it cut open the Titanic) Unfortunately, the game does not equate for speed in the case of "falling damage", just the distance traveled and weight of the object.
I do not have the stats on the spell right in front of me for how far the spell pushes things. If this was even allowed though, you'd need some fairly large chunks of frozen veggies, and even then... I would still be unsure of the damage it could do vs. adamantine.
EDIT: In the case of the Titanic... it was many tons of steel slamming into many tons of ice.
Yet... at that point you are working on the hardness of ice which equates to that of steel. (just enough that it cut open the Titanic) Unfortunately, the game does not equate for speed in the case of "falling damage", just the distance traveled and weight of the object.I do not have the stats on the spell right in front of me for how far the spell pushes things. If this was even allowed though, you'd need some fairly large chunks of frozen veggies, and even then... I would still be unsure of the damage it could do vs. adamantine.
Remember that falling damage is applied to both that which is fallen on and that which did the falling. So in the case of the Titanic it did 20d6 "fall" damage to the iceberg... and 20d6 fall damage to itself.
Not sure this could help in the situation of falling frozen veggies... however I'm sure something could be rigged up.
Yet... at that point you are working on the hardness of ice which equates to that of steel. (just enough that it cut open the Titanic) Unfortunately, the game does not equate for speed in the case of "falling damage", just the distance traveled and weight of the object.I do not have the stats on the spell right in front of me for how far the spell pushes things. If this was even allowed though, you'd need some fairly large chunks of frozen veggies, and even then... I would still be unsure of the damage it could do vs. adamantine.
Remember that falling damage is applied to both that which is fallen on and that which did the falling. So in the case of the Titanic it did 20d6 "fall" damage to the iceberg... and 20d6 fall damage to itself.
Not sure this could help in the situation of falling frozen veggies... however I'm sure something could be rigged up.
The main point was... yes ice can damage steel. However, this was a massive amount of relatively "thin" steel smashing into a solid compressed mass of ice at high speed.
Repel Wood can only push your smallish blocks of frozen veggies 60 ft. (if allowed) before normal forces act upon them again. Yet, max speed of this force is 40ft. a round. So, max 4d6 points of damage from distance.
The spell has no cap on how big an object it can move...
Yet... at that point you are working on the hardness of ice which equates to that of steel. (just enough that it cut open the Titanic) Unfortunately, the game does not equate for speed in the case of "falling damage", just the distance traveled and weight of the object.I do not have the stats on the spell right in front of me for how far the spell pushes things. If this was even allowed though, you'd need some fairly large chunks of frozen veggies, and even then... I would still be unsure of the damage it could do vs. adamantine.
Remember that falling damage is applied to both that which is fallen on and that which did the falling. So in the case of the Titanic it did 20d6 "fall" damage to the iceberg... and 20d6 fall damage to itself.
Not sure this could help in the situation of falling frozen veggies... however I'm sure something could be rigged up.
The main point was... yes ice can damage steel. However, this was a massive amount of relatively "thin" steel smashing into a solid compressed mass of ice at high speed.
Repel Wood can only push your smallish blocks of frozen veggies 60 ft. (if allowed) before normal forces act upon them again. Yet, max speed of this force is 40ft. a round. So, max 4d6 points of damage from distance.
The spell has no cap on how big an object it can move...
I correct myself... Pathfinder falling damage is different. So, assuming small blocks of veggies traveling at least 30 feet... max damage is 2d6. If you somehow hurled your block of frozen veggies 150 in a round, it'd deal 4d6.
If you somehow made a solid "Colossal" block of frozen celery, it could then deal 10d6 for moving 30 ft. or 20d6 if it moved 150.
That is of course if the DM doesn't say that celery by its very nature is not solid or contain enough mass... at which point it would only deal half the above listed amounts.
I never asked about "some random poor village", I asked about a government -- let's say for a medium-size kingdom.
For example, the gov't building that houses property records. Some 3rd level PC (based on Lokie's statement) crawls through the sewers underneath and chisels up into the area where property records are kept. Once there he modifies said records so that friends of his are now large property owners.
How does a GOVERNMENT protect against such a thing?
I would ask: "What is the real life analog of such a thing, and how would it be handled in real life?"
So suppose you have access to a powerful (but expensive) cutting torch and you know that property records are held in a flimsy steel filing cabinet somewhere. What kind of situations could occur as a result?