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So, he wants to try and remake his character, even after me telling him he will always be lackluster in combat.
so, personally I gave everyone 25pt buy for the game, (monks and rogues get 5 additional points)
so he has a 30 pt buy. He wants to be charming (almost bard like, but doesn't want to play a bard... :/) I recommened a muse-touched aasimmar and he liked it. SO.
level 10, muse-touched rogue, decent Cha. Also, I meshed rogue + ninja tricks together for his benefit, basically rogue has a "guile" pool, (admittedly, I stole this name from a post I read looooong ago and the poster's board name escapes me and I apologize) that works off his Cha. Just like a ninja.(I felt that letting it work off WIS would actually be a tad to strong but I am reconsidering due to his performance.)
I was thinking about suggesting.
Str: 12
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha :16
stats after racials and the +2 from levels.
any thoughts? He is the newest player in the group and I would really like to get him shining in some moments.
oh, in-case anyone wishes to know the group consists of.
Invulnerable rager bar-bar
Pally
wizard
Druid
Gunslinger/Inquisitor (this combo actually does well so far)
so yeah, he has a hard road in front of him lol. luckly he does have some good fun in most non-combat situations.
Thoughts/Ideas? As said he is open to anything with a charming, bravado, swashbucklerly feel. (in a way dartanial from 3 musketeers vibe, the live-action Disney one)
Have you seen the swashbuckler from the ACG playtest? It seems like it would fit your concept well. They have a "Panache" pool that works similar to a gunslinger's grit, and is a full BAB class, so he'll keep up in combat.
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actually I haven't looked much into the new classes as of yet. I may have to search them out.
I did find this, I think it may be 3rd party though.
go to Swashbuckler
With two tanks in the party, he just needs to take some of the flanking feats/traits, and hopefully get one or two of them to also take them. Or you can rule that only one PC needs to take the feat.
Outflank,Assault Leader,Gang Up, etc.
a Menacing weapon. With this and some of those feats, he will boost the tanks also, everyone benefits.
The pally and the bbn need to be his 'flanking buddies" Emphasize to all the need for tactics instead of showboating.
If he can flank, or the wiz can make him invis, he can really rock. Seriously- none of this "rouges are teh suxxor" crud. Now, he also need to be able to survive some hits too. Give him some cool protective items.
There are also some cool rogue talents that add a great deal to survivability, but sadly are usable only once a day.Resiliency,Defensive Roll, Redirect Attack , etc. If those were usable 3X + stat liek wizard, sorc and just about every other class, they'd be great.
I also ruled that Stand Up does not provoke.
Interesting magic item: CUTTHROAT'S APPRENTICE.
If he wants to be a combat rogue he should be strength based instead of dex, but what skills does he see himself using a lot.
Also do you use humanoids or monsters more? I ask because his acrobatics wont hold up much past level 10 so if that is why he is going with dex he can drop it. He can do more damage with a two handed weapon than TWF'ing.
Even a melee inquisitor would make a better combat rogue, realistically.
Whatever you do, though, don't fall for the most common rogue trap and invest in TWF as a non-human partial-BAB character. You'll never get anything done, especially around monsters with reach or a large size (which usually mean that tumbling at half speed may not even get him around into a flanking position).
If you have to pick a rogue, you'll be forced to invest feats in improving willpower and fortitude, and it's best to stick to weapon focus and power attack otherwise. Consider feats like the "step up" chain, forgo improved initiative (since you'll get the first hit in and then die), and take a long hard look at spring attack. If you really want additional attacks, it's better to go for combat expertise and the trip chain than TWF. Maybe a splash into Lorewarden and carry a polearm for reach?
options
Add a Rogue only feat that makes Dex primary for to hit and melee damage.
Let the rogue have sneak attack damage when striking any monsters ect that is in combat with a ally.
the pally is usually the king of social encounters (also, being the most outspoken and social person there helps with this)
Probably the latter. Mechanically, the paladin has a nice skill list, but way too few skill points. The rogue should be able to do a decent job as a people person here, but that is partly due to the player. Also, what skills does he have?It would be good to have encounters where he can show them off. Mind you, being able to infiltrate the enemy HQ only works if the Paladin doesn't get the entire group to charge it blindly...
In combat, with 6 people (and possibly an animal companion, which could take the feat where it counds as occupying adjacent squares for flanking) he should not have big problems getting his sneak attacks off. If he has free feats (especially if combat expertise gets a bit of a buff, it isn't exactly great now), the gang up feat can also help - he counts as flanking every time he attacks a foe threatened from 2+ allies. With such a large party, it should not be a problem. Weapon finesse and agile weapons are also very nice in such cases, but I imagine he has that already.
Also, personally I am a fan of a rogue with daggers or kukri and butterfly's sting (another feat), but this is more of a support build. Every time you crit, you can forgo it to essentially "donate" the crit to the ally that strikes him in melee next... such as that barbarian with the *3 greataxe.
STR based scout Rogue. 3 or 4 level dip into Weapon Master Fighter. This gets Weapon Training and Weapon Specialization. It also boosts his BAB a bit, and shores up his FORT save. He also gets much needed armor proficiencies.
Wield a polearm like a Bardiche and a spiked gauntlet or cestus and spiked armor. Use Power Attack and possible Arcane Strike and Combat Reflexes. Improved Initiative is also great for a Rogue. Wear a Breastplate or Kikko Armor, and either make it mithril or upgrade to Mithril Plate. Depends on if you want a little more mobility or a little more AC. Invest in Gloves of Dueling, granting an additional +2 to hit and damage.
Now you can flank and threaten out to 10 feet, allowing more sneak attack. Scout Rogue allows the addition of Sneak Attack if you charge at 4th level, and if you move 10 feet at 8th. Cestus/Spiked Armor allows yo uto attack inside your threat range, if necessary. Gloves of Dueling, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Weapon training give a collective +4/+5 to attack and damage respectively.
Good traits include Armor Expert, Reactionary, Dangerously Curious, and Pragmatic Activator.
On that note, invest heavily into Use Magic Device; perhaps going as far as Skill Focus.
EDIT: Boarding Pike of Repelling may be a worthy investment as well, if you permit it to be further enchanted at higher levels.
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He wants to either go TWF, or 1-handed rogue. (pushing swashbuckler hard here but.. he LIKES the rogue talents..)
so, as much as I agree with the 2-handed stuff, Its a no go.
skills he uses often.
acrobatics
Stealth
UMD
Perception (lawls)
Bluff (feints)
Climb (to his credit, he makes very good use of this and others in down-time, he has the most money out of all the PCs!)
Appraise
and a few others that never seem to stick out.
also, its not so much as he doesn't get sneak attack, its the fact that other PCs are very optimized. (though not min/maxed so by any means)
any suggestions on a swashbuckler build?
1-handed is quite hard and I'd suggest a move to the duelist PrC as soon as he can. If you want to, I'd tweak the rogue swashbuckler PrC so it gets weapon training for something - it should fit the bill of what your player is looking for, but right now it strikes me as quite bad. This concept is better done by fighters, monks (who effectively use their off hand to attack or bind) and their ilk. A rogue/fighter may make a decent duelist, but even then I'd keep a dagger in the off hand (unless I am going for a crane style build, but the rogue doesn't have the feats to pull it off so well).
TWF is okayish imo, but it definitely depends on how optimized and teamwork-oriented the other PCs are. The knife master gets 1d8 sneak attack dice with various knives and related light blades (1d4 with everything else), which could give him a bit more damage. I've heard of people TWF-ing with a two-hander and blade boots or armor spikes, but I'm not sure the player will like that. Multiclassing could also do him good, if he doesn't want to stick to rogue full-time.
Conceptually, for a swashbuckler-ish full rogue I am tempted to go for a knife master with twf, perhaps with a few ranged feats for versatility. If I were to optimise, though, I might mix the build with either fighter or vivisectionist alchemist levels, though.
P.S.: I like the idea of taking eldritch heritage on rogues or ninjas with decent charisma, and the serpentine bloodline can be amazing even if only for the extra attack that you can add SA dice to. Oh, and it comes with poison. There are a few more hidden gems there if you can spare the feats.
He wants to either go TWF, or 1-handed rogue. (pushing swashbuckler hard here but.. he LIKES the rogue talents..)
so, as much as I agree with the 2-handed stuff, Its a no go.
skills he uses often.
acrobatics
Stealth
UMD
Perception (lawls)
Bluff (feints)
Climb (to his credit, he makes very good use of this and others in down-time, he has the most money out of all the PCs!)
Appraise
and a few others that never seem to stick out.also, its not so much as he doesn't get sneak attack, its the fact that other PCs are very optimized. (though not min/maxed so by any means)
any suggestions on a swashbuckler build?
A couple things stick out here:
1.) he insists on the least effective combat styles.2.) His party is very optimized.
He will therefore continue to have the exact same problems as before. IF he insists on being a Rogue (a class notorious for requiring high levels of optimization), he needs to be as optimized as possible to contribute comparably to his party mates.
That, or he needs to be a different class a la blackbloodtroll's constant, unasked for, but often accurate suggestion.
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Uh...with those stats, and using ninja ki-pool mechanics, and TWF with Agile weapons and Weapon Finesse, his damage and effectiveness should be pretty solid, really.
I'm...honestly not sure what the problem is. I mean...Rogues tend not to be the best things ever, but TWF helps a lot, Ki-pool helps a lot, and sky-high Dex should help a lot...
Is he not already TWF with weapon finesse? Is he not using his Guile Pool? what's going on here? Also, what level is this?
any thoughts? He is the newest player in the group and I would really like to get him shining in some moments.
A 30 point buy is not a good start for a new PF player. All following characters will feel weak compared to his first one.
Create situations for the rogue. Some non-combat situations, stealth missions, traps , combats with special terrain that require movability. Everything that dont require 'max damage' are for rogues. In general the rogue has the most options for non-combat situations. Sadly a lot of players reduce PF to combat, combat and more combats.
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any thoughts? He is the newest player in the group and I would really like to get him shining in some moments.
A 30 point buy is not a good start for a new PF player. All following characters will feel weak compared to his first one.
Create situations for the rogue. Some non-combat situations, stealth missions, traps , combats with special terrain that require movability. Everything that dont require 'max damage' are for rogues. In general the rogue has the most options for non-combat situations. Sadly a lot of players reduce PF to combat, combat and more combats.
its not his FIRST character, he played DnD before (limited experience with that as well) with rolled stats that were higher. early on he did well with those, but now, the casters are starting to become more versatile. as neither take many combat spells and just take utility spells.
from my view. if he just changes a couple of feats around and re-trains his stats I think he will be fine. But It is a more combat heavy campaign I am running with war and the like. I think he enjoys the character and the class (the way he plays it) in general, but he seems to feel lackluster compared to other classes, which I say is just a side effect of being a rogue, homebrew fixes or not. I usually try to play with rules as written with only small changes here and there to classes and skills.
the problem is, on half the fights the Mooks are dead before he can take full attacks while flanking. (seriously, what DOESN'T a barbarian SMASH) I love his character concept, and the more I think about it the more I think he would enjoy the swashbuckler, either the ACG one or the 3rd party one I found and I will probably push those. for an Idea he loves the "duelist" persona and enjoys the few moments he can "duel" another person for a few rounds utilizing all his feats (feint, disarm ect)... when they work..
Also, I think I may add a feat -Doublestrike: A character can make one attack with each weapon he is wielding as a standard action, taking all normal penalties. perquisites: TWF, BaB+6 \
EDIT: When I GM I usually always give 25pt buy to most. Unless we all agree on playing a "grittier" campaign.
The whole "even after me telling him he will always be lackluster in combat" makes me wonder if the player himself feels he has a problem. IMO the idea about swashbuckling is to look good and be awesome, actual efficiency need not be the highest priority :P . I think the player won't necessarily mind if he gets some decent diplomancing on or gets other great check results. Ultimately, though, the player needs to think of cool things to do, and that depends on him (although it doesn't hurt to give him a bit of a hint by mentioning convenient chandeliers, stairways and the like).
BTW, I think feinting is not very good for a rogue due to being very feat-intensive. If there was a feat that lets you do sneak attack damage (or at least part of it) on a critical, this would be great here. The 3.5 rogue/swashbuckler combo lived off that. Right now, rogues really don't benefit much from critical hits, which you'd expect to be a big thing for swashbucklers of any class. For example, what if you made a spinoff of the sap adept feat, giving a rogue extra damage equal to twice the SA die on a critical hit made as part of a sneak attack, with a follow up feat letting them do SA damage on every crit?
I know you said he does not want to play a bard, but how about an archeologist bard. They lose bard’s performance for luck. Between this and a few spells like heroism he should be ok in combat. A lot of people get hung up on the name of the class, but that is not what is important. What is important is what the character can do.
I've read a variety of "fixes" for the rogue and like Rogue Glory's approach, as well as some of the stuff I've seen from Rite (a lot of this is on the PFSRD under the archetype sections). I've also seen it recommended to allow them more than standard wealth by level so they have a lot of things to UMD on demand. I think a mix of those approaches should help out a lot.
As a GM, I think I'd slip in a lot of special forces-style missions and sabotage rather than straight combat and let the rogue use the craft traps rules from Rogue Glory to lay mines and booby traps as well as deal with same. When the wizard's out of spells after the party's been running from leapfrog ambushes for the past 3 days, he'll still be going strong, so you can play that us as well. A high UMD and golf bag of half-used wands and other consumables should help him out quite a bit, too.
I've no idea if this will help, but if I were going to make a "swashbuckler" I think I'd go maneuver master 1/rogue(probably ninja, actually) 4/lore warden x, and then prestige off into duelist or shadowdancer. Urban barbarian or cleric might fit in there somewhere, too.
The maneuver master would supply plenty of dirty trick: blind moves to allow more sneak attacks and allow you to reposition, drag, or trip foes and let the barbarian and pally finish the job. The maneuvers can be described as pretty classic "swashbuckler" moves, with flipping cloaks over people's heads, cutting their forehead to let blood run into their eyes, pulling rugs out from under them, etc. I'd probably want a whip for reach, or a net that I'd describe as a cloak. I'd run him with a batman belt full of stuff to account for odd scenarios, be on combat support when I couldn't sneak attack and probably try to pick up a useful cohort such as a Faerie Dragon or Pseudodragon via the leadership feat or maybe the Advanced Rogue talent + improved familiar feat and use their telepathy to keep us all linked and coordinated, as well as to help detect foes.
The Swashbuckler and Slayer are probably more to his liking. Especially the Slayer as it has the same feel but is able to back it up with his combat ability. Rogue Talents are available too as is Trapfinding.
Slayers make good TWFers and function well with a Cornugon Smash build.
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Hmmm... Can shamelessly suggest this homebrew Rogue as an alternative? It's pretty similar to the normal Rogue, but its revised Rogue Talents are... >gasp!< actually useful!
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I hear all the time "Rogues are underpowered".
Absolute nonesense. It's just most people don't know how to play Rogues effectively. If you cooperate with the party tank, or find a way to get opponents flat-footed a lot, a high level Rogue can dump out truckloads of SA damage.
Doubly so if your DM lets you take the "re-roll all 1s" trick, and you stack it with some Assassin levels or something. Personally I allow Craven and Improved Sneak Attack from 3.5, so that makes Rogues even more powerful...
Come to think of it... I may write a Rogue guide.
Rogues are a little underpowered...but only a little, and mostly because Ninjas are just flat-out better (at least in combat). Letting Rogues grab a Ninja-size Ki Pool and use it for the same things fixes a whole lot of the issues with Rogue.
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Hmmm... Can shamelessly suggest this homebrew Rogue as an alternative? It's pretty similar to the normal Rogue, but its revised Rogue Talents are... >gasp!< actually useful!
I will shamelessly +1 your shameless promotion. I read through and it seems pretty solid.
Hmmm... Can shamelessly suggest this homebrew Rogue as an alternative? It's pretty similar to the normal Rogue, but its revised Rogue Talents are... >gasp!< actually useful!I will shamelessly +1 your shameless promotion. I read through and it seems pretty solid.
Well, thank you very much for the kind words, sir. I'm glad you like it. Hopefully more people will take a look at it and enjoy the homebrew and/or come up with their own ideas.
Here is my quick homebrew solution that I think will solve your problem-
Use the swashbuckler and create your own archetype - instead of getting deeds at levels 1/7/11/15 you get rogue/ninja tricks. Replace the 'guile' pool with Panche (though I like the term guile better to be honest). That should let him get the tricks he wants while being more fightery - there aren't that many must have rogue talents I hope and if there are he's complaining too much.
(You keep the deeds at level 3 because..... Precise Strike....)
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here are some build suggestions I will be giving him.
1 rogue, 1 slayer, 1 swashbuckler
Rogue, (with homestuff)
Str: 12
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha :16
stats after racials and the +2 from levels.
Feats
1-weapon Finesse
2-Vanishing Trick
3-TWF
4-Shadow Clone
5-Mobility
6-Offensive Defense
7- Extra Guile (ki)
8- combat training- Improved TWF
9-Improved TWF feint
10-Crippling strike.
Slayer, Human
Str:20
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:14
Cha:7
Feats
1- TWF
2- Ranger Combat style- Double Slice
3- Weapon focus Shortsword
4- Fast Stealth
5- shadowstrike
6- Ranger combat style- Improved TWF
7- Combat Expertise
8- Slowing Strike
9- Improved TW Feint
10- Evasion
Swashbuckler, Muse-touched Aasimar
Str:10
Dex:20
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:14
Cha:16
1- finesse, Combat reflexes
3-Extra panache(grit)
4-Pihrana Strike
5-Iron Will
7-weapon focus Rapier
8-weapon specialization
9-Extra Panache
11- Sig deed, opportune parry and riposte
first swashbuckler myself, so thoughts?
Extra Panache twice probably isn't needed. I'd replace dodge and one extra panache with something else. Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization stand out but could be anything, perhaps Shadow Strike if concealment is a problem in your games.
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Extra Panache twice probably isn't needed. I'd replace dodge and one extra panache with something else. Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization stand out but could be anything, perhaps Shadow Strike if concealment is a problem in your games.
ooo I see I can take them. ok. so dodge will be replaced by weapon spec. defiantly.
here are some build suggestions I will be giving him.
1 rogue, 1 slayer, 1 swashbucklerRogue, (with homestuff)
9-Improved TWF feint
Are you letting him take Improved Two-Weapon Feint without regular Two-Weapon Feint? (I had a TWF with Two-weapon feint, and it was not really all that good.) You're better off trying to get into flanking, so Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack were much more useful.
Slayer, Human
Str:20
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:14
Cha:7Feats
1- TWF
2- Ranger Combat style- Double Slice
3- Weapon focus Shortsword
4- Fast Stealth
5- shadowstrike
6- Ranger combat style- Improved TWF
7- Combat Expertise
8- Slowing Strike
9- Improved TW Feint
10- Evasion
Unless you're ignoring all prerequisites, these stats don't qualify for any of the TWF tree: minimum 15 Dex.
For a Str-based TWF, a dip into Martial Artist Monk is probably your best bet (assuming you don't want to be lawful), because you get TWF and Double Slice for free. You'll still take the half-damage on Power Attack on the off hand unless you're using unarmed strike, but you get two feat slots back and have absolutely no Dex requirements.
Also, Feint feats are going to suck with 7 charisma, because it's a bluff check.
Swashbuckler, Muse-touched Aasimar
Str:10
Dex:20
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:14
Cha:161- finesse, Combat reflexes
3-Extra panache(grit)
4-Pihrana Strike
5-Iron Will
7-weapon focus Rapier
8-Dodge
9-Extra Panache
11- Sig deed, opportune parry and ripostefirst swashbuckler myself, so thoughts?
My only issue with this is that Piranha Strike doesn't work with rapiers: it's specifically only light weapons, unless you home rule it.
If you're actually doing the level progression, I'd probably take Iron Will at 3rd level, just to survive long enough to need the extra panache. If not, it doesn't matter.
Something you might consider for a Dex-based/agile enchantment character is a dip into Urban Barbarian. Being able to increase your Dex as free action is pretty nice, and it stacks with your belt of Dex/Cat's Grace enhancement bonuses.
Remember what a rogue-ninja's thinly-sliced bread and butter is: The Sneak Attack.
When does he get sneak-attack?
1. When he goes first (aka opponent flat-footed)
2. When he goes first with a ranged weapon
3. When opponent can't see him (invisible)
4. When he's flanking
Rogues MUST invest highly in initiative.
They MUST go before the opponent as often as possible. Reactionary Trait, Improved Initiative and Items that grant initiative bonuses are manditory.
Rogues CAN sneak attack with ranged weapons if they go before the opponent. Have him get Sniper's Goggles.
Shuriken don't appear impressive initially, but re-consider the Flurry of Stars as an opening move: 4 attacks at 10th. So potentially 4 x (d2 + 5d6)
Consider the Wakizashi. Consider it with Improved Critical. It crits on 15-20, therefore it hits 15-20 no matter how high the opponents AC is.
My Ninja's routine looked like this:
Opening Round: Flurry of Stars, move out of way but close enough to melee next time.
2nd Round: Move to Flank, Sneak attack (standard), Vanishing Trick (swift)
3rd Round: Sneak attack (full-round, 4-5 hits), Vanishing Trick (swift), 5 foot step.
Repeat step 3.
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And for social-- Your Pally is the Diplomatic Face, that everyone likes and trusts.
Your Rogue can be your bluffing, infiltrating, Con Man. Have info that only he can gather from Whorehouses, Pesh Dens, Gambling Halls, etc... He can go where the paladin can't. And... he can lie like a rug.
Consider the Wakizashi. Consider it with Improved Critical. It crits on 15-20, therefore it hits 15-20 no matter how high the opponents AC is.
The Wakizashi is a nice weapon, it's light so it qualifies for Pirana Strike, it's piercing and slashing as opposed to the rapier which is only piercing.
However, just because a weapon threatens a critical does not mean it automatically hits, only natural 20's offer that benefit.
Consider the Wakizashi. Consider it with Improved Critical. It crits on 15-20, therefore it hits 15-20 no matter how high the opponents AC is.
I like the rest of your post, but this is incorrect. It only hits automatically on a 20.
edit: ninja'd...quite possibly with a wakizashi.
My apologies for the misinformation. We played that any confirmed critical was a hit. (It still had to confirm, tho)
I think improving Sneak Attack is like increasing a Fighter's DPR... It's technically a buff, but completely fails to address the real issues with the class.
For Rogue to be a viable class, it should get:
- Better defenses (especially saving throws)
- Better accuracy
- Better utility and versatility at mid/high level (when spells steal skills' thunder)
- More unique features (Rogue Talents that are cool and actually worth a damn would be great!)
- The ability to invest in Int and Cha without gimping themselves.
- The acknowledgement that Trap Finding is not useful enough to be considered a class' main feature. At best, it's a secondary ability. It's either completely useless or extremely boring (Roll Perception. Roll Disable Device. The End. Yeah! That's some fun right there! Rolling dice without any thinking or decision-making involved. ¬¬')
Fix that and you fix Rogues.
I hear all the time "Rogues are underpowered".
Absolute nonesense. It's just most people don't know how to play Rogues effectively. If you cooperate with the party tank, or find a way to get opponents flat-footed a lot, a high level Rogue can dump out truckloads of SA damage.
Doubly so if your DM lets you take the "re-roll all 1s" trick, and you stack it with some Assassin levels or something. Personally I allow Craven and Improved Sneak Attack from 3.5, so that makes Rogues even more powerful...
Come to think of it... I may write a Rogue guide.
The problem with rogue at high levels is they are glass cannons. If the rogue can hit with all their attacks they can do a ton of damage. The problem is if that doesn't drop you subject of the sneak attack the retaliation can very well drop the rogue in 1 round. This due the rogues low AC and lower hit points compared to the tank. At high levels the AC climbs faster than the rogue's to hit bonus. So they tend to miss more often.
To give an example the rogue in our RotRL game was fine till the last part. At the time the rogue down almost every fight. There were couple fights that weren't that bad stuff where the rogues reflex and evasion saved him.
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Given that he likes a swashbuckling sort of feel...why on earth does the Slayer build intended for him have Cha 7?
I mean, I know the class doesn't need it per se, but it can use it every bit as much as the Rogue (well, sans UMD) and he seems to want it. Heck, you could grab Traits for Diplomacy and UMD and keep them both Class Skills. If he wants Charisma and one of your builds lacks it, he'll not play that one...so what's the point of even having it as an option?