I know we don't have the Pathfinder RPG version of Flyby Attack yet, but we know it exists as the new Bestiary Preview II has at least one monster with this feat. I'm now assuming this works as in 3.5 and I have a question about this after reading the feat again.
Previously I have always assumed that it is basically Spring Attack for flying movement but without the added ability to avoid attacks of opportunity. Until now I have always played it that way that a flying creature cannot use Spring Attack while flying and would need Flyby Attack and would provoke attacks of opportunity. Otherwise the Flyby Attack feat would make no sense. However Spring Attack, as written, does not exclude other modes of movement than walking. So I assumed this was a case of "rules as intended" over "rules as written".
After reconsidering Flyby Attack now, it seems to me, though, that this feat does indeed allow a creature to make a single attack (its standard action for the round) and then move and perform another standard action (perhaps another attack) on its way (its move action for the round). Which means, for example: attack, fly, cast spell, fly on; or attack, fly, attack again.
Is that correct? Or am I misreading something?
If it is correct, I guess this routine could be combined with Spring Attack for something like this: attack opponent 1, fly, attack opponent 2, fly on - without drawing an attack of opportunity from opponent 2 (no such luck with opponent 1 though).
Also I think it would be possible to use Vital Strike on the attack at the beginning of the round as long as you don't use the extra standard action to make an attack.
No. Flyby Attack uses both your move and your standard action, it's just that you have more choices with how to use that standard action than with Spring Attack. With Spring Attack, your only choice is to make a single melee attack. With Flyby Attack, you can use it in any way you could use a normal standard action. You don't get two standard actions a round, you just get to interrupt your movement with the one you get.
No. Flyby Attack uses both your move and your standard action, it's just that you have more choices with how to use that standard action than with Spring Attack. With Spring Attack, your only choice is to make a single melee attack. With Flyby Attack, you can use it in any way you could use a normal standard action. You don't get two standard actions a round, you just get to interrupt your movement with the one you get.
I don't think that is correct. Yes, you can perform other standard actions than an attack action, but consider this: if the only use of Flyby Attack over the otherwise superior Spring Attack would be to be able to do something other than attack - why on earth would the feat be named Flyby Attack? Also, check out the feat's wording (emphasis mine):
Benefit
When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Note that is says "another standard action". That makes no sense with your interpretation.
Think about what you're proposing. You're proposing that any spellcaster with a fly speed gets to cast three spells a round (two standard action and one quickened). Do you realize how badly that breaks the game? There's a reason Quicken Spell is a +4 level adjustment -- casting a second spell in a round is just that powerful.
As for why it's called "Flyby Attack"? Generally, dragons breathing fire on you from above is called an attack. If it was worded like Spring Attack, they wouldn't be able to breathe fire, because their breath weapons are all standard actions, not melee attacks (or even ranged attacks). Flyby Attack was invented mainly for dragons -- you'll note that EVERY example dragon has it, even the wyrmling brass.
Think about what you're proposing. You're proposing that any spellcaster with a fly speed gets to cast three spells a round (two standard action and one quickened). Do you realize how badly that breaks the game? There's a reason Quicken Spell is a +4 level adjustment -- casting a second spell in a round is just that powerful.
That is not what I am proposing. I'm proposing to interpret it as "attack-fly-standard-fly", not "standard-fly-standard-fly", i.e. the first action must be an attack action, which precludes casting a spell. Also the prerequisite of this feat means more than just being able to gain a fly speed by some magical means.
And where are you getting that "the first action must be an attack" from? The word attack is used nowhere in Flyby Attack's rules except as part of the phrase "flyby attack", clearly referring to the feat itself rather than a rules definition. Furthermore, you specifically suggest that it allows taking two standard actions when you point out that it says "another standard action". With no restriction on what this mythical first standard action can be, it thereby follows that it can be any standard action. Thus, two standard spells a round. Or a spell and a breath weapon, a spell and a SLA, etc etc.
And there are plenty of spellcasters that have natural flight speeds, including PC races such as avoral and raptoren. Are you really OK with Raptoren being able to cast twice as many spells a round as a human wizard just because they have a racial flight speed?
Or how about a pit fiend spellcaster? Do you really want him to be able to cast spells AND bomb the party with his at-will blasphemy every round?
Furthermore, forcing flyby attack to require an attack action to initiate severely nerfs its intended use: strafing runs by dragons.
And where are you getting that "the first action must be an attack" from? The word attack is used nowhere in Flyby Attack's rules except as part of the phrase "flyby attack", clearly referring to the feat itself rather than a rules definition. Furthermore, you specifically suggest that it allows taking two standard actions when you point out that it says "another standard action". With no restriction on what this mythical first standard action can be, it thereby follows that it can be any standard action. Thus, two standard spells a round. Or a spell and a breath weapon, a spell and a SLA, etc etc.
You are right, I had something else on my mind.
And there are plenty of spellcasters that have natural flight speeds, including PC races such as avoral and raptoren. Are you really OK with Raptoren being able to cast twice as many spells a round as a human wizard just because they have a racial flight speed?
Personally I could care less about raptorans or any of the other esoteric new races invented to sell more books even if they could cast wish at will. Also, avorals are not a PC race, especially not in the mindset of the Pathfinder RPG.
Or how about a pit fiend spellcaster? Do you really want him to be able to cast spells AND bomb the party with his at-will blasphemy every round?
Pit fiend spellcasters are not supported by the rules (at least 3.5), normally. Pit fiends advance by adding hit dice, not class levels.
Furthermore, forcing flyby attack to require an attack action to initiate severely nerfs its intended use: strafing runs by dragons.
So where is this intention stated? If that is the intention of the feat, then why do, for example, the giant eagle, the air elemental, or the pegasus have it with nothing else to do but make an attack and where Spring Attack would clearly be superior.
Pit fiend spellcasters are not supported by the rules (at least 3.5), normally. Pit fiends advance by adding hit dice, not class levels.
Really? The Monstrous Manual disagrees with you. Page 290, "IMPROVING MONSTERS":
Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels.
Furthermore, the rules specifically give details for how to advance monsters with class levels, and there's a 3.5 supplement entirely devoted to the concept of giving monsters class levels.
I'd call that "supported by the rules".
And, honestly, even if it weren't supported by the rules, pit fiends still get devastating at-will spells. Fireball, power word stun, teleport, etc etc. That's enough to qualify them as spellcasters (and can even qualify them for feats and prestige classes that require those SLAs as spells or spells of their level).
So where is this intention stated? If that is the intention of the feat, then why do, for example, the giant eagle, the air elemental, or the pegasus have it with nothing else to do but make an attack and where Spring Attack would clearly be superior.
Because it's more flavorful? Since when are monster stat blocks optimized? Hell, I can't count the number of monsters that have Toughness or Endurance when any feat at all would be superior.
I disagree about the improving of monsters. I think it is the intention that monsters can only take class levels when that is stated on the Advancement line of their statblock. And yes, of course, a pit fiend has powerful spell-like abilities, but that doesn't make him a spellcaster as per the rules (i.e. doesn't qualify for item creation feats).
You are, of course, right about non-optimized statblocks
I guess we will have to wait and see how the feat gets worked up in the Bestiary.
You're welcome to your belief, but it's not supported by Paizo. They include quite a number of monsters in their adventures that have character classes which the MM say advance by hit dice. As an example, there's a succubus with Bard levels in Rise of the Runelords.
I know, and they have also changed that rule in Pathfinder.
Really? Can you give me a source? That's news to me.
I always thought Fly-by attack was more a variation of Ride-by Attack than it was Spring Attack:
Ride-By Attack (Combat)
While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a
foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge
action, you may move and attack as if with a standard
charge and then move again (continuing the straight line
of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t
exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount
do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent
that you attack.
So, on a charge, and only on a charge, you can continue past the creature you were charging, having used your one attack on the way. Simply substitute Fly for Ride on the skill prerequisite, and a feat called Aerial Combat to replace Mounted Combat, and you get Fly-by Attack.
It is not a spring attack, because a spring attack allows you to change directions.
You can change directions during a Flyby Attack, as long as you make your Fly check to do so.
Really? Can you give me a source? That's news to me.
I can't give you my source due to an NDA, but Paizo employees, especially Jason and James, have commented on the new monster advancement rules here on several occasions.
Really? Can you give me a source? That's news to me.I can't give you my source due to an NDA.
Fair enough :)
I look forward to seeing the Bestiary, regardless. It's not like I can't throw out rules I don't like.
There's a good reason to take Flyby Attack instead of Spring Attack. The prerequisites for Spring Attack are two other feats and a Dex of 13. The prerequisites for Flyby Attack are a fly speed. If you have a fly speed, Flyby Attack has a much lower cost.
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Revisiting this thread now that the Bestiary is out. Flyby Attack reads as follows (italics mine):
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
So it sees a creature with this feat can indeed make two attacks while flying.
Revisiting this thread now that the Bestiary is out. Flyby Attack reads as follows (italics mine):
So it sees a creature with this feat can indeed make two attacks while flying.
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
Flavor text is flavor text. It has no rules impact. If it did, Channel Smite wouldn't be usable with Touch spells, Double Slice would always add at least 1 damage, Empower Spell would only affect damage, etc.
I think the 'another' wording isn't optimal/ could probably be clarified/Errata'd,
but if the Feat was granting you another Standard Action it would clearly state that. As is, 'another' is probably in reference to the Move Action, not an 'un-mentioned normal Standard Action'.
The inclusion of the word 'another' is NOT a 100% clear indication of a 2nd Standard Action, but is just as explicable by being a simple common-English reference to Fly-By's Move Action (albeit less than clear in D&D rules terms), which is ultimately the less problematic explanation. Again, if the "2 Standard Actions" was intended, it would be clearly spelled out BECAUSE of it's huge signifigance.
The Flavor Text is clearly an Errata issue (if Flyby isn't in fact granting a 2nd Standard Action),
and should read something like "you can MOVE before and after an Attack".
Re: Monsters with Class Levels, Paizo has abandoned Level Adjustment *FOR PC's*,
adding Class Levels to NPC Monsters is still valid and rules exist for scaling their CR.
Paizo simply doesn't want to validate Monster PCs and their statements here on the board state that they consider balancing an NPC Monster for one encounter and a PC for many many encounters are very different things: They *DID* include rules for NPC Monsters w/Class Levels, just not for Monstrous PCs.
Revisiting this thread now that the Bestiary is out. Flyby Attack reads as follows (italics mine):
So it sees a creature with this feat can indeed make two attacks while flying.
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
It's probably a typo. It more than likely should read "before, during, or after"
This is from the hypertext d20 but I'm sure this hasn't changed much.
"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."
If the feat were really granting an additional standard action for the round, I think it would be more clear about that. Also, why would you get to take TWO standard actions when it's very specific about not being able to take your second move action?
I think the "before, during, or after" would make more sense as well with the "Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move."
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Revisiting this thread now that the Bestiary is out. Flyby Attack reads as follows (italics mine):
So it sees a creature with this feat can indeed make two attacks while flying.
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
I just ran into this interpretation for the first time with a druid player who was summoning things. The player felt strongly that RAW the feat says both you can make an attack before andafter it moves, and the benefit states you can take another standard action, meant the feat grants two attacks. The player figured this was a variant of a full attack for creatures who, as they are flying, will fall if they take a full-attack routine.
I vetoed that interpretation, but other players were divided exactly 50/50 on how the feat is supposed to work.
I think this needs a FAQ tag, and to get cleaned up.
Whoa, thread revival galore.
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Spring Attack and Ride-by Attack, while slightly different in usage, essentially perform the same function. They alow you to move in some fashion, make an attack, and move again. Thematically, this represents jousting and sniping. It would seem logical that Fly-by Attack would perform the same function, just applied to flying creatures. This would represent the typical dragon strafing attack, just that it can substitute a breath weapon instead of a standard, melee attack. Seems logical to me. However, the RAW is very confusing. Since its appearance in 3.5, our group has been split on how it really works. It seems to read, albeit cryptically, that a flying creature can take a standard action, move, and take another standard action, with the caveat that the second standard action cannot be substituted with a move. My first issue is that the language seems to interchange the use of 'attack' and 'standard action' as the same thing. Obviously, that has to be wrong, and, in play, makes no sense? Can a dragon can cast a spell, dive on the target/s, stop, and use it's breath weapon? Or would it allow a melee attack, a move, and then a standard action? That would require the flying creature to start it's turn in reach of the target. That seems to go against the whole point of being a flying creature, in that it stays out of reach. Either way, the whole thing seems very odd to me and doesn't scale with other feats. It has no prerequisite (other than a fly speed) and grants a bonus standard action?!? Can my eldritch knight with Fly use this (albeit only when flying) to attack, move away and then cast? Holy cr@p!! And, if he does, can he cast two spells in a round (with quicken) AND attack?!? HOLY CR@P!!!
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the benefit line is rules. thats what counts.
So are you implying then that the word "another" in the benefits, indicates a 2nd standard action? That would allow a dragon to cast a spell, move, and then use it's breath weapon. Seems broken to me.
Also, would this feat, combined with Spring Attack allow a flying creature to move, attack, move, standard action? Also, seems broken
I have been watching this blog for a while, my group thinks the wording is clear (standard-move-standard) it says nothing about it needing to be an attack. My question is should a player character be able to take it if he qualifies for it.
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
Bump.
Opinions, people, opinions!
Please?
(Why don't I give one? Because I'm in Vee'Cou's gaming group and we want outside opinions.)
The feat is intended for creatures with natural fly speeds, but a GM is the final source on whether or not a player can take a monster feat. I would allow it if he the player qualified for it somehow.
As to the issue of whether or not an attack is required, the answer is no. You can perform any standard action. The flavor mentions attack because is the primary intention of the feat when it was thought of but if you compare it to similar feats like spring attack and ride by attack you are not restricted to an attack.
The PC in question is a monstrous humanoid that can fly with a spell-like ability usable at will. If he is allowed to take this feat it might make him overpowered compared to the rest of the group. He meets all the prerequisites but it might turn the group’s fifth wheel in to its main combatant.
James Jacobs cleared this up a while back, you get one attack in the middle of your move action. It's poorly worded, but does not allow an extra attack. HERE is the link to the thread with his reply.
The PC in question is a monstrous humanoid that can fly with a spell-like ability usable at will. If he is allowed to take this feat it might make him overpowered compared to the rest of the group. He meets all the prerequisites but it might turn the group’s fifth wheel in to its main combatant.
Flying with am SLA does not qualify the PC. That is not natural flight. If that were the case a wizard with the fly spell could take the feat.
Flying with am SLA does not qualify the PC. That is not natural flight. If that were the case a wizard with the fly spell could take the feat.
The Fly by Attack prerequisites say nothing about the fly speed needing to be a natural fly speed but the hard part is that it’s a monster feat so that makes who takes it very select.
If there is a add on some where please let me know
Herken Didwyk thanks for the link.
I realize this post is very old, has been revived twice already, and has been addressed in another interpretation thread as not allowing two standard actions. However, I just ran into this in my game today, interpreted it as granting two standard actions, realized it was broken, and found this thread researching it. It seems confusing, but I think I thought up an interpretation that makes sense, so I wanted to post it for anyone else looking this up later.
It works as intended if you consider the Flyby Attack as the standard action. That is, in any situation where a monster would get a standard action (such as a surprise round, is a zombie, is slowed, or gets a normal round), the standard action can be a Flyby Attack. By using up the standard action, Flyby Attack has to grant another attack within itself to be at all useful. The intent of giving the dragon strafing ability and the fact that the breath weapon isn't an attack means that they had to state it as a standard action.
So, it might read "When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action (in addition to the one used to initiate the Flyby Attack) at any point during the move." The line "The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack." prevents monsters from getting two moves and an attack.
I guess it is also implied that the standard action inside the Flyby Attack cannot be another Flyby Attack. Otherwise, that could be chained to get infinite movement.
But this point of view interprets the Flyby Attack as a standard action just like any other Special Attack in the 3.5 PHB (pages 154-160).
Interesting point that the Flyby Attack doesn't avoid the Attack of Opportunity like Spring Attack and Ride-By Attack. Also, Ride-By attack allows the double move with the attack.