Wait, here's an eye...
And here's a hand...
And a head.
Wanted: Trustworthy surgeon good with a saw.
Somehow, ever since Justin Achilli dared saying "Really, Saulot was a vampire saint" a year before him being outed as the most nefarious villain in the oWoD (Saulot, not Justin) I've started taking all "official statements" with a grain of salt. =P
What's this about Saulot? I always loved the Salubri, but I'm not really entirely read-up on the metaplot (I hated even trying to keep up with it), so I'd love to know exactly what this is all about. I wiki'd Saulot, but I didn't see anything.
What's this about Saulot? I always loved the Salubri, but I'm not really entirely read-up on the metaplot (I hated even trying to keep up with it), so I'd love to know exactly what this is all about. I wiki'd Saulot, but I didn't see anything.
From the Masquerade of the Red Death novel:
Saulot had an ambitious childe, ambition he exploited manipulating this childe into thinking he could destroy him by creating a clan of super-vampires up to the task. This ambitious childe would later be known as Saint Germaine, and we all know his pet project as the infamous Clan Tremere. You see, contrary to the antediluvians who could muster the will to strike down their creators, vampires from the 4th generation ownward are all unable to resist the will of their respective antediluvian, so Saint Germaine created an experimental "clan" whose blood was different enough as for them to be able to act against Saulot without being rendered helpless by his mere voice. What Saint Germaine didn't know, however, is that all this time he has been manipulated by Saulot into doing just that* and, having passed his soul to Tremere's body and blood, Saulot gained control over the Clan Tremere while still holding rein over the Salubri.
There's also mentions of Saulot as a most evil demon that perpetrated all kind of atrocities in Kindred of the East plus more bits of insinuation here and there in other books which I can't remember off the top of my head. It's so sad White-Wolf decided to drop this story arc altogether during their haphazardly improvised gehena (the Saulot thing had been going on for years).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Saulot spoilers
He seems to have become major bipolar and founded the Baali, possibly as Devil Tigers that went wrong. His own clan became the kindler gentler vampires as a whole, possibly as a perversion of the path of thousand whispers. He arranged for Tremere to do the big D on him, and engaged in a multicentury long battle of wills with Tremere, which he eventually won.
In addition to the three factions above, some of his followers survived in Africa where they devolved into a really nasty group of soul suckers. (The notes for Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom said to really make Saulot out to be a bastard, to make his face turn better in the end).
Meanwhile of the '8 surviving salubri', one of their 'kids' says frak this and chows down on his mentor, and creates the Salubri antitribbu It's implied that Saulot might be involved there too, which would give him a twisted Respendent Crane.
Finally in Lair of th Hidden and Gehenna he reappears as the 'good vampire saint' again. So... it really depends on what you see.
I'd point out that most of the novels are not metaplot canon.
Oh, and as to 'what killed him' it reminds me of Eberron and the Mournlands. Keith knows what killed it, but it's not essential to any plots.
|
Your new avatar is disturbing, cappa.When I saw this post, Daigle, I thought you were talking about StudPuffin's avatar -- that it's your old avatar.
-W. E. Ray
I went with this one because I was sick of that rusty pigeon that I used to have. Until I can find a good Puffin avatar around here, this is it.
And if Daigle used to have this avatar, then he has great tastes... or at least used to. Hehe.
|
|
Mattew,
still it was always clear the so called saint was the most evil and despicable villain in the oWoD... a setting full of vile, evil and despicable villains
snif I still waited for ventrue to retun with all the artifacts he had found and hidden, ready to wage war in the last nights of gGehenna to protect Cain and Seth's childers as his grandsire had commanded him... bastards they actually killed him... snif... yeah i was sold by the 1st clan Book Ventrue, so what? :P
|
I am less curious about the hows, whys, and whats of Aroden's death than why Pharasima did not warn her followers and let them be driven insane by the event.Because that's not what Pharasma does. She's perhaps the oldest of the deities in Golarion and her ways are not always for mortals to understand. Also... there's always a chance that Pharasma DIDN'T know what was going to happen until it did. And an even better chance that she did know but kept it from her followers as a method to winnow out the weak among her followers. Or perhaps she has a use for insane followers and let them go crazy on purpose. She's not good aligned, so she's not necessarily a nice person all the time.
She's an enigma!
And that is why I love her!!
At the moment of birth, she knows where a particular soul will end up, but she reserves her official verdict until the last possible moment as she knows prophecies can be wrong or fail. She believes in fate and predestination but understands the need for vagueness and misinterpretation to allow for the illusion of free will.
At the moment of birth, she knows where a particular soul will end up, but she reserves her official verdict until the last possible moment as she knows prophecies can be wrong or fail. She believes in fate and predestination but understands the need for vagueness and misinterpretation to allow for the illusion of free will.
From Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal:
Philosopher: "If God knows the future, the future must already be detremined. If the future is already determined, we have no control over our future actions. If we have no control over our future actions, we can't be judged based on them. So either there's no hell, or God is a jerk!"
About ten seconds later, in Hell's waiting room:
Satan: "Struck by lightning?"
Philosopher: "Struck by lightning."
|
|
From Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal:Philosopher: "If God knows the future, the future must already be detremined. If the future is already determined, we have no control over our future actions. If we have no control over our future actions, we can't be judged based on them. So either there's no hell, or God is a jerk!"
About ten seconds later, in Hell's waiting room:
Satan: "Struck by lightning?"
Philosopher: "Struck by lightning."
Minor Tangent:
My favourite daily webcomic, to be sure. They do videos now too. "The Plumber" broke my brain.It would have taken something pretty shattering to have killed off a major diety. They don't just slip in the shower and hit their head. Well, maybe a Realms god would(they seem more prone to death than a level one commoner in a room full of housecats), but not a Golarion one...they're pretty badass.
|
"Journal of Kols,
Day 1.
A god died today in his apartment in the city of Axis. The entire city screams like an abattoir filled with retarded kobolds. The hollow beauty of this city hides a rotten undercurrent, somebody killed a god and I intend to find out who and why.
Quis custodiet ipsos dieties?"
"Journal of Kols,
Day 1.
A god died today in his apartment in the city of Axis. The entire city screams like an abattoir filled with retarded kobolds. The hollow beauty of this city hides a rotten undercurrent, somebody killed a god and I intend to find out who and why.
Quis custodiet ipsos dieties?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would say that while it may have come as a surprise to the rest of the world, it could hardly have come as a surprise to Aroden himself.
So why didn't he prevent his own death?
There could be many reasons for this. First and foremost, if he was the type to take a hand in shaping history as he went along, his knowledge of the future would likely be of the "many worlds" type, i.e. allowing him to choose the actions that would bring a future he liked. However, it is quite possible that ALL possible futures would bring his own demise, giving him no choice in the matter. It could also be a question of his survival coming only with prices he wasn't prepared to pay, such as changing too much himself, ushering in an age of doom instead of uncertainty, or the like. Finally, it's not certain that all other actions were predictable, such as those taken by the other gods. It's quite possible that he got assassinated somehow.
He really shouldn't have called Calistria "fat"...
. Well, maybe a Realms god would(they seem more prone to death than a level one commoner in a room full of housecats)
Small threadjack, pre 4e realms gods did not die often at all. Most of the ones that died did so in the ToT at which point they were very mortal. Before that most faded(but not true death) when they lost worshipers and only a few died. Mystrul comes to mind but she choose to die so magic would not
end thread jack
Okay how do I close this can of worms that I opened?
Even if you could close the can, the worms would still be free to crawl into the earth and out of your reach.
I would say that while it may have come as a surprise to the rest of the world, it could hardly have come as a surprise to Aroden himself.
So why didn't he prevent his own death?
There could be many reasons for this. First and foremost, if he was the type to take a hand in shaping history as he went along, his knowledge of the future would likely be of the "many worlds" type, i.e. allowing him to choose the actions that would bring a future he liked. However, it is quite possible that ALL possible futures would bring his own demise, giving him no choice in the matter. It could also be a question of his survival coming only with prices he wasn't prepared to pay, such as changing too much himself, ushering in an age of doom instead of uncertainty, or the like. Finally, it's not certain that all other actions were predictable, such as those taken by the other gods. It's quite possible that he got assassinated somehow.
He really shouldn't have called Calistria "fat"...
While my knowledge of Golarion is not a hundredth that of the average poster on these boards, I can't help but comment...
Maybe Aroden saw that his death would be better for the people in the long run, so he allowed it to happen. Isn't that what gods are supposed to do?
Maybe he died of his own prescience, like Paul Atreides of the Dune books?
But like I said, I don't really know Golarion. I only just started reading the Gazetteer.
Indeed, that IS what a god of prophecy is SUPPOSED to do. A good one, at any rate. That doesn't mean they do it... some gods are all too human.
Aroden is dead.
No, he's just pining for the fjords...
All that slander. Do I sound dead to you?
For the record: As the god of prophecy, I would see my death coming from a millennium away. I'd take precautions. Being a god of traditions, I'd go with one of the classics. Like hitting on a hundred mortal women and begetting demi-divine progeny to fuel my divine resurrection.
In fact, I'd keep them together and give them a quest. I'd pave the way for this from day 0. I'd instil in them the lust for discovery and create a society just for them, based in my very own city.
interestingly enough... being dead doesn't hut him up... at least I am not the only one who suffer him... but you all too...
well now to keep the ehavens free of demons and continue the campaign to free the universe of evil and chaos! my army to my!
The ungratefulness! Listen to that, people. They use you as a career step stone and when they make it, you're dead to them.
Or are you still mad at me that I didn't include you in my backup plan, the one with all the godspawn. I enjoyed our dates, but you never seemed like a mother to me. Too much career woman in you. Half the time, you're harassing the fiends, and the rest of the time, you're watching your priestesses frolicking with netherspawn and crazy clowns. I can't have a child of mine be abandoned like that, or be exposed to all that violence and debauchery!
So why didn't he prevent his own death?
It's a huge hoax. He even has the Jacobsaur in on it.
One day, when they all gather to talk about him - maybe mourn him, maybe mock him - he'll jump out from behind a tree and say SURPRISE!!!
Everyone will laugh.
I helped him with this one.
He really shouldn't have called Calistria "fat"...
It was a "phat". With a "pee age". He complimented her. That's what you get to try to talk like those kids.
I know, it still throws me sometimes even though I've been using this one for over a year now.Your new avatar is disturbing, cappa.When I saw this post, Daigle, I thought you were talking about StudPuffin's avatar -- that it's your old avatar.
-W. E. Ray
Totally.
|
|
Totally.I know, it still throws me sometimes even though I've been using this one for over a year now.Your new avatar is disturbing, cappa.When I saw this post, Daigle, I thought you were talking about StudPuffin's avatar -- that it's your old avatar.
-W. E. Ray
That avatar... my only weakness...
<dies>
Wait, here's an eye...
And here's a hand...
I don't get it. Your point is?
|
Wait, here's an eye...
And here's a hand...
I don't get it. Your point is?
The point is that, like Taliesin, all things Vancian never die...
They move to Asia; they get sent to Ravenloft; WotC tries to kill them but true gamers ignore WotC while Paizo, etc. support them -- And all things Vancian come back, never really dying.(Jack is still alive, right?)
Arodin, unfortunately, has nothing to do with Vecna. Or Jack Vance. Or Vancian Magic. Or Taliesin Hoyle.
So he's dead.
Even if we find a Hand and Eye.
RIP Arodin
-W. E. Ray
** spoiler omitted **Aroden is dead.
...so if we ever DO reveal how he died, that revelation will mesh with everything we've done. At this point, we've no plans to ever reveal how he died, though.
Pulled a Carradine in Rovagug's closet.
That was one of the best parts of my plan. You made the perfect "witness".
That corpse was one of Xanderghul's clones.
|
Aroden is dead.
This is official. It's a KEY part of the campaign's flavor and history, and it's not something that we're going to "reverse" or cheat out of. He's dead.
As for HOW he died... for internal consistency, we have the reasons decided on in-house so that we can be consistent in how those reasons ripple things along, so if we ever DO reveal how he died, that revelation will mesh with everything we've done. At this point, we've no plans to ever reveal how he died, though.
OK, his physical self died.... but he must have taken his place in the pantheon...? otherwise how do his clerics get their spells, they do get spells don't they? And if Arodens Clerics are granted spells (from him), he cant be REALLLLY dead? Or am I mistake?
OK, his physical self died.... but he must have taken his place in the pantheon...? otherwise how do his clerics get their spells, they do get spells don't they? And if Arodens Clerics are granted spells (from him), he cant be REALLLLY dead? Or am I mistake?Aroden is dead.
This is official. It's a KEY part of the campaign's flavor and history, and it's not something that we're going to "reverse" or cheat out of. He's dead.
As for HOW he died... for internal consistency, we have the reasons decided on in-house so that we can be consistent in how those reasons ripple things along, so if we ever DO reveal how he died, that revelation will mesh with everything we've done. At this point, we've no plans to ever reveal how he died, though.
Aroden's clerics don't get spells.
Aroden's clerics don't get spells.
Because they've all been very naugty!
Okay, so Aroden's really truly, we-mean-it dead. I assumed that, actually.
And Paizo doesn't plan to tell us how or why. I'm fine with that, it lets me pick a reason that works for my games.
SO: In my games Prophecy is a vast cosmic machine. You can't have prophecies about the too-far future, you have to get closer. But the longer that machine chugs onward, the more set prophecies become. So, as God of Prophecy, Aroden could see them earliest and best, maybe even tweak them when they had wiggle-room. He didn't create prophecies, just got a heads-up on them long before they were set, and could then nudge them in a direction before too many details become set.
And of course, he could reveal the prophecies he saw to his allies and worshipers.
Then,he was coming back. A new age of peace and happiness was on the way. He'd let that be seen early and often, because there was no reason not to spread the good news. Priests, gods, devils, they all knew.
But then, before his arrival and before any other force in the universe noticed - gods of death and mortal seers included - Aroden saw the eventual price of his return. He saw a terrible prophecy, and it was set. No wiggle room, no other options. The cosmic machine had too much force for Aroden to nudge this one.
The only way out? Break the machine. Aroden died as an act of divine will, pitting his full divine power against *himself*, to break one prophecy, and thus destroy all others. Even a greater god can't break powerful prophecy without consequences, but the cosmic machine couldn't stop him from destroying himself.
The machine shatters. The world bucks, clerics go mad, and gods stare in shock and horror. The force of prophecy - all prophecy - is reset to zero. No one knows what's coming now. And it'll be centuries, if not eons, before the future gains enough rigidity, before the cosmic machine gains enough momentum, for seers to see the future once more.
Aroden died to save us from the future, and no one, god, demon or angel, will ever know why or how.
So.. what are other GMs using for the cause in their games?
|
|
So.. what are other GMs using for the cause in their games?
Lord gyr appears from nowhere, an archimage with enough power and money to save the city in a moment of need and asking control of all magic in Absalom instead of its ports... it makes people question what is going on... too misterious... I say he is Aroden or at least an spark of the great god... but... that is my story.
|
|
So why punish them?Because they've all been very naugty!Aroden's clerics don't get spells.
he still complains for the fact that they joined my clergy and I am the one giving them their power... excepto the evil ones... I think they where the ones who began the corruption of Cheliax while we fighted in the Worldwound...
he still complains for the fact that they joined my clergy and I am the one giving them their power... excepto the evil ones... I think they where the ones who began the corruption of Cheliax while we fighted in the Worldwound...So why punish them?Because they've all been very naugty!Aroden's clerics don't get spells.
Joined your clergy? Ha, more like intimidated into.
Because YOU Demanded it!
New from Mojo! The movie that will inflame chests, light fires, and rattle cages all over!
************SANCTIFIED! THE STORY OF THE HARLOT QUEEN************
Find out -what- happened during those days of ordeal in Tar Baphon's captivity!
Delve into the reasons why ex-goddess Arazni considered throwing the halo and get a change of career that would drop golarian jaws to the floor!
And more important! Take a sneak-peek at her new and improved life... UNCUT! UNCENSORED! Plus! Order Sanctified: Special Collector's Edition now and get free a limited-edition home video of the lovely undead couple: Geb and Arazni sharing their private, quality time with YOU!
And that's not all! In these times of crisis, Mojo also delivers affordable streaming so no one is left out! Take your place inside the fire now!
Because YOU Demanded it!
New from Mojo! The movie that will inflame chests, light fires, and rattle cages all over!
************SANCTIFIED! THE STORY OF THE HARLOT QUEEN************
Find out -what- happened during those days of ordeal in Tar Baphon's captivity!
Delve into the reasons why ex-goddess Arazni considered throwing the halo and get a change of career that would drop golarian jaws to the floor!
And more important! Take a sneak-peek at her new and improved life... UNCUT! UNCENSORED! Plus! Order Sanctified: Special Collector's Edition now and get free a limited-edition home video of the lovely undead couple: Geb and Arazni sharing their private, quality time with YOU!
And that's not all! In these times of crisis, Mojo also delivers affordable streaming so no one is left out! Take your place inside the fire now!
I am flattered, but so much has happened. It would take a miniseries at least.
If you really want to get some viewers though, Iomedae and I can get into a mudpit. Lawful good epicness at its greatest! *whispering to the Camera* And can someone explain why Iomedae is aligned with the Chelish?
I am flattered, but so much has happened. It would take a miniseries at least. If you really want to get some viewers though, Iomedae and I can get into a mudpit. Lawful good epicness at its greatest!
And Mojo listens! Just sign here, and you'll be ready for a miniseries -and- a trilogy!
*whispering to the Camera* And can someone explain why Iomedae is aligned with the Chelish?
I'm not sure, something about a place where she can let the dominating side of her faith be, or so I heard.
I am flattered, but so much has happened. It would take a miniseries at least. If you really want to get some viewers though, Iomedae and I can get into a mudpit. Lawful good epicness at its greatest!And Mojo listens! Just sign here, and you'll be ready for a miniseries -and- a trilogy!
*whispering to the Camera* And can someone explain why Iomedae is aligned with the Chelish?I'm not sure, something about a place where she can let the dominating side of her faith be, or so I heard.
Alright *signs with a flourish and a holy sigil.*
Where do we begin?
*clucking her teeth about Iomedae* How typical. I'm all for a good crusade. But seriously, part of the appeal of religion is that it's an option.
Where do we begin?
The best thing is, we already started. I look forward to a long and profitable work relationship.