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This thread is funny.
Okay, what can we produce with this awesome *new* power we've unleashed?!
A) A fire fighter! A cleric with a quickened Create Water sprouts more water than a battalion of commoners with buckets. Hooray!
B) A sneaky freaky wizzie, wandering around the town. A Still & Silent Ghost Sound makes odd commercial ads be heard all around town, spoken by no one!
C) Artistic super-speed sorcerer, who paints graffiti with a quickened Arcane Mark. No one will stop this rascal from painting the town pink!
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Besides as they say in star wars, they are a bit of a trap and in reality aint that fantastic.
yes, I have been reading up on some threads about them (the comparison with Warlock was made there as well).
So, although we have initially reacted with horror at the OP's suggestion of interpretting the RAW in the way he has, now that someone has pointed out that it "reality aint that fantastic" maybe the OP's suggestion isn't that unreasonable?
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Okay, what can we produce with this awesome *new* power we've unleashed?!
I wish there was a 'Mass Metamagic' that allowed one to turn a single effect spell into an area effect spell.
I'd love to have a version of Open/Close that affected every door and window in a room, so that the evil whatever could gesture dramatically at the heroes and every door and window slams shut violently behind them, just like in a horror movie.
Sorcerer - "You'll never leave here alive, heroes!" [doors and windows slam shut dramatically]
Barbarian - "24 for Init. I charge, Power Attack and Rage, critting with my Keen Thundering Burst Holy Falchion."
Sorcerer - "Urk!" "Note to self. Less drama. More Save or Dies."
Acid Splash (1d3 Cold Damage) (Lvl 0)
Silent Acid Splash (Lvl 1)
Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 2)
Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 3)
Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 5)
Maximised Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 8)BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!
Or for more random beardiness
Quickened Maximised Empowered Enlarged Acid Splash (Lvl 9)
BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AS A FREE ACTION AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!
I HAVE BECOME DEATH! DESTROYER OF... erm... KOBOLDS!
And its a touch attack you may miss, just to make it more scary!
Okay, what can we produce with this awesome *new* power we've unleashed?!I wish there was a 'Mass Metamagic' that allowed one to turn a single effect spell into an area effect spell.
I'd love to have a version of Open/Close that affected every door and window in a room, so that the evil whatever could gesture dramatically at the heroes and every door and window slams shut violently behind them, just like in a horror movie.
Don't forget the open version of the spell, that would open every door, bag, pouch, pocket, belt, shoelaces, armor straps and so on (of course, will negates).
Edit: maybe not the armor straps.
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Heighten is the one metamagic feat you never want to add to it because it does change the spell's level. As soon as the spell's actual level changes it no longer can be cast at will.
Yes, and I think the write up of that feat supports this exception, even reading the Cntrip write up literally.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
So a Cantrip subject to Heighten metamagic is prepared and cast as a 1-level spell as it effectively becomes a 1-level spell, and no longer a 0-level spell and as such no longer subject to the At Will clause.
Besides as they say in star wars, they are a bit of a trap and in reality aint that fantastic.yes, I have been reading up on some threads about them (the comparison with Warlock was made there as well).
So, although we have initially reacted with horror at the OP's suggestion of interpretting the RAW in the way he has, now that someone has pointed out that it "reality aint that fantastic" maybe the OP's suggestion isn't that unreasonable?
I know what you were trying to do there you know matey, I have known you long enough for that.
To be fair I am sitting here thinking of ways it could really annoy situations having metamagic'd up to the nines a level 0 spell and I am struggling.
Admittedly I was arguing more for rules interpretations including the spirit of it (which may seem strange to you after my shadow run character ;) ) and agree it has gone all out of proportion.
I personally wouldnt give up a higher level spell slot anyway but it would make fantastic menders/fire fighters/small time thieves etc :)
Sorry if anyone took my posts as a bit intense, I see the funny side of it mixed in with the rules side ;)
Are people dyslexic?
Actually I am, pdq69 all look the same to me.
Dyslexics aren't stupid, don't know if you were using that as an insult or not. Sorry if I am being over sensitive.DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD UNTIE!
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Okay, what can we produce with this awesome *new* power we've unleashed?!I wish there was a 'Mass Metamagic' that allowed one to turn a single effect spell into an area effect spell.
I'd love to have a version of Open/Close that affected every door and window in a room, so that the evil whatever could gesture dramatically at the heroes and every door and window slams shut violently behind them, just like in a horror movie.
Don't forget the open version of the spell, that would open every door, bag, pouch, pocket, belt, shoelaces, armor straps and so on (of course, will negates).
Edit: maybe not the armor straps.
<hippy>All the metamagic feats in the world can't help you open the one thing that needs opening most. Your mind man! </end hippy>
Darn. I thought this was a funny harmless loophole.
Now it gets kind of bad.
Add Sanctum Spell from Complete Arcane. Now you have infinite 1st level spells.
Unlike cantrips, those can be used for something other than some weird fun.
Darn. I thought this was a funny harmless loophole.
Now it gets kind of bad.
Add Sanctum Spell from Complete Arcane. Now you have infinite 1st level spells.
Unlike cantrips, those can be used for something other than some weird fun.
If we were playing hockey I think a sin bin would be in order ;)
Darn. I thought this was a funny harmless loophole.
Now it gets kind of bad.
Add Sanctum Spell from Complete Arcane. Now you have infinite 1st level spells.
Unlike cantrips, those can be used for something other than some weird fun.
Sanctum spell raises the caster level and the effective spell level of the spell by 1 when cast within the defined sanctum, and lowers it by 1 when cast outside of the sanctum. A Sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the same level.
Not fantastic though as it raises the "effective spell level" within the sanctum so wouldnt garner you a great boost as to me its like garnering you a plus 1 save dc on that cantrip at will unlimited, but I see where your coming from.
So would be great for getting another d6 on fireball but apart from that you still only have so many fireballs or whatever.
If we were playing hockey I think a sin bin would be in order ;)
Is that a threat? My google-fu brings up descriptions of violent play.
Edit: Dracon, the sanctum spells would be cast outside the sanctum, thus turning 1st level spells into 0th level spells.
Edit2: Sanctum spell does nothing for caster level. Only spell level is affected.
If we were playing hockey I think a sin bin would be in order ;)Is that a threat? My google-fu brings up descriptions of violent play.
Well you going to sin bin implies you were the one who committed the foul and were given 1 minute off play ;)
Dont know the ins and outs I dont watch/play hockey lol
If we were playing hockey I think a sin bin would be in order ;)Is that a threat? My google-fu brings up descriptions of violent play.
Edit: Dracon, the sanctum spells would be cast outside the sanctum, thus turning 1st level spells into 0th level spells.
On the edit yeah it would reduce a 1st level sanctumed spell to 0 slot which would then by RAW apply unlimited casts.
But then I suppose if we were playing nice ;)
The first level would cast at an "effective level of 0" thereby reducing number of missiles/damage etc but it states,
A Sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the same level.
it does not alter the slot of the spell so technically its still used up thereby no infinite,
The first level would cast at an "effective level of 0" thereby reducing number of missiles/damage and save dc but it states,A Sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the same level.it does not alter the slot of the spell so technically its still used up thereby no infinite,
Number of missiles is based on caster level, not spell level.
Save DC is not present in magic missile.
Spell slot used is irrelevant with RAW and and infinite cantrips. Spell level is not.
The first level would cast at an "effective level of 0" thereby reducing number of missiles/damage and save dc but it states,A Sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the same level.it does not alter the slot of the spell so technically its still used up thereby no infinite,Number of missiles is based on caster level, not spell level.
Save DC is not present in magic missile.
Spell slot used is irrelevant with RAW and and infinite cantrips. Spell level is not.
Just giving broad examples on number of missiles etc, not stating full spell descriptions here. Flame missile from one of the non wizards books has a save dc for example.
Im going to sign off here by simply saying:
Effective level does not equal actual level so the point still stands re infinite spells
Twist away my friend twist away.
Cantrip is a word used to describe level 0 spells. Previously, there were at least two quotes that stated as much. This means that if a spell is counted as a level 0 spell, it is a cantrip.
Spell slot is not spell level, because one can use a spell slot of a higher level to cast a lower level spell. This was also stated previously. Also, if this was not the case, everybody would have heighten spell for free.
Sorcerers and bards have no 0 level spell slots. Even this was stated previously. This means that spell slots can't be the same as spell levels.
Some other things about whether or not the metamagic feat actually changes the spell level:
First,counterspell. From PRD:
"Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered."
Which seems to me to say the metamagiced spell is still its original level.
{So a lone kobold sorcerer can undo DM_aka_Dudemeister's Destroyer of Kobolds. Well, it may take a few kobold sorc's as to ensure at least one makes the spellcraft check each round.}
Second, save DC's. For example, from the Empower feat, "Saving throws ... are not affected, ..." which again seems to say the spell level is not changed by the metamagic.
And finally, back to Spellcraft skill regarding identifying spells as they are being cast- the PRD doesn't mention if metamagic changes the DC. People from both sides of the argument- are you consistent with how you treat this? (Although I think I would up the DC, not because the spell is a higher level, but because it is being cast in an unusual way, especially something like quicken- much less time to recognize.)
Also, if you say that a metamagiced spell is higher level spell, Globe of Invulnerability will be nerfed.
Something jumped up from the rules regarding zero level spells.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).As you see, it's these spells that are not expended, not the spell slots. This means that a metamagiced cantrip can be cast again and again just like any other cantrip.
You are mistaken in your interpretation, and I am sure you already know that.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: 3-16 under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
I enphasize Table: 3-16 since it is key to interpreting the function of 0-lvl spells.
A 1st lvl wizard has 3 cantrips available, 3 0-lvl spells, 3 0-lvl spell slots. This information is listed on table 3-16, as described in the rules, under the Spells per Day / 0 column.As soon as you apply a metamagic feat to a 0-lvl spell it takes up a higher level spell slot and is no longer a cantrip, and can therefore not bee cast at will.
However, you are free to interpret the rules in any way you want and to house rule anything into your campaign, but I must insist that you keep in mind which are house rules and what is Pathfinder.
If your main ambition is to give your players a lot of at will powers I would suggest you invest in a copy of the 3.5 Complete Mage handbook or D&D 4E.
I see a lot of statements claiming that a spell is the same thing as a spell per day (or spell slot), but no supporting evidence. Could you perhaps provide me with some?
As soon as you apply a metamagic feat to a 0-lvl spell it takes up a higher level spell slot and is no longer a cantrip, and can therefore not bee cast at will.
So, Any rules supporting that part? Except the idea that a spell is the same as a spell slot. I'd hate to ask for that twice in one post.
Edit, because I don't want to spam my posts to this thread so soon:
If a metamagiced cantrip is no longer a 0 level spell, why don't you calculate save DC according to the spell's new level on any other metamagic feat except heighten spell?
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It is certainly grammatically ambiguous. The description talks of 'spells' not 'slots', which leans to one side, and the explicit reference to the table leans back towards only cantrips occupying a o-th level slot refreshing - as in "it's only a cantrip if prepared in a 0-th level slot'.
"These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again." - this taken by itself would indicate that any 0-th level spell, whatever level slot used to memorise it, is not expended once cast.
It's a matter for DMs to rule as they see fit and for Paizo to clarify for PFS.
Edit: Ooh, this may have been thought of. Quoting from the book
Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison or domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).
As there are no 0-th level Cure spells, this seems to be explicitly excluding putting an orison into a higher level slot, using it for spontaneous casting as healing, and then having it refresh.
If your main ambition is to give your players a lot of at will powers I would suggest you invest in a copy of the 3.5 Complete Mage handbook or D&D 4E.
Ouch, that's going to leave a mark.
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Something jumped up from the rules regarding zero level spells.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).As you see, it's these spells that are not expended, not the spell slots. This means that a metamagiced cantrip can be cast again and again just like any other cantrip.You are mistaken in your interpretation, and I am sure you already know that.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: 3-16 under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).I enphasize Table: 3-16 since it is key to interpreting the function of 0-lvl spells.
A 1st lvl wizard has 3 cantrips available, 3 0-lvl spells, 3 0-lvl spell slots. This information is listed on table 3-16, as described in the rules, under the Spells per Day / 0 column.
As soon as you apply a metamagic feat to a 0-lvl spell it takes up a higher level spell slot and is no longer a cantrip, and can therefore not bee cast at will.However, you are free to interpret the rules in any way you want and to house rule anything into your campaign, but I must insist that you keep in mind which are house rules and what is Pathfinder.
If your main ambition is to give your players a lot of at will powers I would suggest you invest in a copy of the 3.5 Complete Mage handbook or D&D 4E.
Unless you heighten the spell it is still a 0-level spell taking up a higher spell slot.
Just as preparing a 1st level spell in a 9th level spell slot (metamagicked or not) is still a 1st level spell.
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I enphasize Table: 3-16 since it is key to interpreting the function of 0-lvl spells.
I considered this, but that table also lists the number of 1 level spells slots, 2nd level spell slots etc of the wizard.
I would use the same table to determine how many cantrips enhanced by metamagic I could prepare in a day, so this doesn't explicitly rule out the OP's interpretation.
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If your main ambition is to give your players a lot of at will powers I would suggest you invest in a copy of the 3.5 Complete Mage handbook or D&D 4E.Ouch, that's going to leave a mark.
I am not sure what you mean by that remark. I took Diego Winterborg's comment as a sincere suggestion, indeed in a thread I started on RPG.net about how to use official 3.5 books to gain the best bits of Pathfinder and 4e someone pointed me to Complete Mage and the Reserve Feats as a potential way to get At Will spells.
Also, it was when reading the 4e Wizard's At Will Cantrips powers that I first wanted to play a Wizard (the 3.5 Wizard never appealed to me) and I couldn't help but think of the roleplaying possibilities - narrating how my Wizard character waves his hand causing the candles on the table to light before sitting down to speak with the off-duty guard.
As soon as you apply a metamagic feat to a 0-lvl spell it takes up a higher level spell slot and is no longer a cantrip, and can therefore not bee cast at will.So, Any rules supporting that part? Except the idea that a spell is the same as a spell slot. I'd hate to ask for that twice in one post.
- Considering that only an explicit twisting of the rules allows for your interpretation and that table 3-16 is self explanatory, I cannot see that you need more rules than the ones you have already provided yourself.
Edit, because I don't want to spam my posts to this thread so soon:
If a metamagiced cantrip is no longer a 0 level spell, why don't you calculate save DC according to the spell's new level on any other metamagic feat except heighten spell?
- Cantrip and spell have all been used as synonims for spell slot in the text you provide. That is obvious when you refer to the table in mention.
But the explanation you are asking for is on pages 112-113.
Just to reinforce, since it seems as if some people didn't catch it.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
This is the correct way of using the phrase "the exception proves the rule". This description describes this metamagic feat raising the spell level is an exception to the rule that metamagic feats do not raise the spell level.
Heighten spell is about the only way (the only way I know at least) to actual raise the level of a spell, which is important because it matter for things like spell DC. Thus unless a heighten spell is used, an orison is still an orison, whether it uses a higher level slot due to just being prepared in such or due to metamagic being used.
If your main ambition is to give your players a lot of at will powers I would suggest you invest in a copy of the 3.5 Complete Mage handbook or D&D 4E.Ouch, that's going to leave a mark.I am not sure what you mean by that remark. I took Diego Winterborg's comment as a sincere suggestion, indeed in a thread I started on RPG.net about how to use official 3.5 books to gain the best bits of Pathfinder and 4e someone pointed me to Complete Mage and the Reserve Feats as a potential way to get At Will spells.
Also, it was when reading the 4e Wizard's At Will Cantrips powers that I first wanted to play a Wizard (the 3.5 Wizard never appealed to me) and I couldn't help but think of the roleplaying possibilities - narrating how my Wizard character waves his hand causing the candles on the table to light before sitting down to speak with the off-duty guard.
Aside from this whole scharade about cantrips, I realy like PF's take on orisons and cantrips and think it is a better approach than the 4E power system.
With that said I think reserve feats are a great way of giving your wizard that extra flavor. I used them to play a Loremaster specialized in the Wind Dukes of Aqaa for great effect.With that said I will only permit them in my group if they add flavor to the character in question - wizards and sorcerers have enough fire power the way they are.
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Aside from this whole scharade about cantrips, I realy like PF's take on orisons and cantrips and think it is a better approach than the 4E power system.
With that said I think reserve feats are a great way of giving your wizard that extra flavor. I used them to play a Loremaster specialized in the Wind Dukes of Aqaa for great effect.
With that said I will only permit them in my group if they add flavor to the character in question - wizards and sorcerers have enough fire power the way they are.
I'm not sure at-will metamagicked cantrips are really what I'd consider extra fire power lol.
Unless you get to 20th level and REALLY dislike kobolds...
or believe a 2 round daze (on monsters with 4 or less hit dice no less) is truly the most game breaking ability of all...
or... the horror... extending open/close to open a window from over 50 ft. away, the terrible draft that might be let in.
I'm not sure at-will metamagicked cantrips are really what I'd consider extra fire power lol.
Unless you get to 20th level and REALLY dislike kobolds...
or believe a 2 round daze (on monsters with 4 or less hit dice no less) is truly the most game breaking ability of all...
or... the horror... extending open/close to open a window from over 50 ft. away, the terrible draft that might be let in.
I agree on that.
The problem with these small wholes is the same that applies to clothes. It starts with a little whole, and if you let your kids poke their fingers through it for long enough without mending it, they end up ruining it.The at-will metamagic cantrip is minor thing that in very rare/specific situations will come into play, but there is no telling how such an interpretation might affect later rule additions.
And actually your point goes both ways - why are people so willing to twist and bend the system until it breaks in order to get a very limited advantage? At best I find it infantile and af worst I consider they might have a dubious agenda.
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And actually your point goes both ways - why are people so willing to twist and bend the system until it breaks in order to get a very limited advantage? At best I find it infantile and af worst I consider they might have a dubious agenda.
Copied from another thread where a similar question was asked...
First, for some people discussing RAW and trying to find loopholes can be fun - a game in itself. Sometimes people would have no intention of abusing these loopholes but find it fun to see what could be possible using the RAW. For examples of this see Pun Pun and his infinitely high ability scores!
Second, people like to discuss these interpretations of RAW so that if a player of theirs brings up the issue, they have already thought about the issue, had other people point out obscure rules that don't allow that loophole etc.
Thirdly, people going to conventions, and / or playing in organised play campaigns (like Pathfinder Society) like to identify any mis-interpretations, or gain official clarification, so that despite having a stranger GMing you, you can gain an idea of how other people will interpret a rule.
And a new fourth one...
Sometimes, by discussing the implication of a rule that at first looks to be munchkiny and twisted, it comes to light that it might not be so bad actually, and that by using the RAW it actually allows for some other very reasonable uses (e.g. my example of using a 1-level slot to prepare an extra non-enhanced cantrip and still being able to use it At Will).
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I'm not sure at-will metamagicked cantrips are really what I'd consider extra fire power lol.
Unless you get to 20th level and REALLY dislike kobolds...
or believe a 2 round daze (on monsters with 4 or less hit dice no less) is truly the most game breaking ability of all...
or... the horror... extending open/close to open a window from over 50 ft. away, the terrible draft that might be let in.
I agree on that.
The problem with these small wholes is the same that applies to clothes. It starts with a little whole, and if you let your kids poke their fingers through it for long enough without mending it, they end up ruining it.The at-will metamagic cantrip is minor thing that in very rare/specific situations will come into play, but there is no telling how such an interpretation might affect later rule additions.
And actually your point goes both ways - why are people so willing to twist and bend the system until it breaks in order to get a very limited advantage? At best I find it infantile and af worst I consider they might have a dubious agenda.
If kids are poking holes in your clothes you've got Mending at will to fix them ^_^. Heck you can have a maximised enlarged mending if you've got a 6th level spell slot to spare ~_^
I don't think something like this really goes against the spirit of the rules though. If the spirit of the rules are to have fun (and none of the other classes seem to be hurt by this interpretation) then this interpretation is more than valid. As far as I can tell it gives the spellcaster a minor at-will ability with a little kick at the cost of a more powerful and useful spell.
In short I'm not seeing a bug, I'm seeing a feature.
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I am giving you the rules, you are trying to bend them. When you have read and understood the rules you will be free to say that line again.No. You haven't given me rules. You've given me something you claim as rules. Nowhere have you for example quoted PRD or the core rulebook.
Anyway, I should be wrong about this. Cantrips shouldn't work like this. However, until there's sufficent evidence against them working like this, they do.
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).This is a really simple GM fix.
Cantrips are 0 level spells. As soon as you apply metamagic the level of spell is > 0. This means that you cannot recast them, as they cease being 0 level spells. If you play that raw, feel free, but that's the wackiest interpretation I know of, and I highly doubt anyone with a rational mind would allow it, even in PFS where they are forced to play RAW.
EDIT: TO clarify the point, in this case the cantrip description is referring not to the spells themselves, but the slots.
The only metamagic feat that actually increases the effective spell level of a spell is Heighten Spell. So I think the OP has a point, this is a rules loop hole, but it also isn't a particularly powerful one.
I'm not sure I wouldn't DM rule it away if it became abused, but still not so powerful that it matters that much.
And actually your point goes both ways - why are people so willing to twist and bend the system until it breaks in order to get a very limited advantage? At best I find it infantile and af worst I consider they might have a dubious agenda.
Dude, if we pretend there's no problems in the rules, they'll never get fixed. I consider it infantile to close your eyes and refuse to see the problem.
Edit: @Galnörag, This wasn't powerful until post 62. Then it became problematic.
^ this is why I worry about it...add heightened to the mix and things could get real...Fear my Chain, Extended, Twinned, Repeating Daze!
And, when I get high enough level, I can Persist Prestidigitation. Yanno, just because I can.
You fear the ability of a 17th level wizard to daze a 4 HD humanoid for several rounds?
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You fear the ability of a 17th level wizard to daze a 4 HD humanoid for several rounds?^ this is why I worry about it...add heightened to the mix and things could get real...Fear my Chain, Extended, Twinned, Repeating Daze!
And, when I get high enough level, I can Persist Prestidigitation. Yanno, just because I can.
I refuse to come out from under the bed until 17th level wizards are no longer a threat to kobolds.
The real problem as I see it is that people new to RPGs might end up more confused about how to interpret the rules. I think we have all seen people posting questions based on gross misinterpretation of rules.
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The real problem as I see it is that people new to RPGs might end up more confused about how to interpret the rules. I think we have all seen people posting questions based on gross misinterpretation of rules.
I agree completely. Jason did a fantastic job with the rules, however there are still areas where the grammar is loose and more than one interpretation is possible. It's not his fault: I spend all day reading specifications and pointing out ambiguities and yet when I write something that seems perfectly clear, someone else points out similar problems.
Pointing them out on the boards is the best way to get them clarified. Plus 9 times out of 10 someone chimes in with a rule from a different section that removes the ambiguity.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Edit: @Galnörag, This wasn't powerful until post 62. Then it became problematic.
After some reflection, I applaud your creativity, sirrah. It is exploiting a loophole to make a cantrip closer to a reserve feat than anything else.
I don't worry about Sanctum spell, since I don't use Complete Arcane ;-)
It does give spontanious casters an advantage, if I'm reading your interpretation correctly. As long as the sorcerer has a) the Maximise spell feat and b) an uncast 4th level spell slot she can throw maximised acid splashes as a full round action until the cows come home. The Wizard has to memorize the maximised acid splash, taking up a 4th level slot, but doesn't lose that slot when the spell is cast, and does it as a standard action. The sorcerer's advantage is he can use that same slot to maximise ray of frost, where the Wizard would need to memorize maximised ray of frost in another slot.
So an 8th level sorcerer can take one of those precious 4th level slots and do an additional 1d3 points of damage every round. I can live with that.
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I agree it is still a cantrip BUT you lose a slot of the appropriate enhanced level if you put meta magic on it. You still have unlimited cantrips but your higher level slots are being lost.
What about if you don't put meta magic on it (but still put it in a higher level slot)? Is the higher level slot lost and therefore you only get to cast that cantrip once?
That's interesting. I seem to recall something about me being "able to use my existing library of 3.5 products" if I switch from 3.5 to PFRPG.
That's interesting. I seem to recall something about me being "able to use my existing library of 3.5 products" if I switch from 3.5 to PFRPG.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that half-baked feats like Sanctum Spell should be suddenly immune to silly hijinks when going from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
I was actually looking at metamagicked cantrips a couple of weeks ago (specifically to use in combination with the Magical Lineage trait), and I didn't see any cantrips that benefitted much from metamagic. Extended Daze was the best I could come up with, and that gets obsolete pretty quickly.