A little gem about 0 level spells.


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 259 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>

Something jumped up from the rules regarding zero level spells.

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

As you see, it's these spells that are not expended, not the spell slots. This means that a metamagiced cantrip can be cast again and again just like any other cantrip.

Generally speaking, this is not too useful save for a few things.

1) Extended Daze. A 2-round stop doing anything spell. Usable only for the first few levels, because enemy HD rises quickly over 4, and daze doesn't affect them anymore.

2) Quickened acid splash. A little turret for shooting down nasty insects and keeping trolls from regenerating. Not good for much else, and of questionable worth for a 4th level slot.

3) Silent Ghost Sound. When you really really want to remain unheard while making sounds, go with this.


Thinking out loud here.

In a lot of cases do they not still use a higher level spell slot? Therefore it may have been a cantrip but now its filling one of your first level slots and thereby whilst you may cast the "un"metamagic version at will, the enhanced one comes off your 1st level daily allowance.


That Extended Daze does take up one 1st level spell slot, but it doesn't expend it when cast. See that quote in first post.


Lehmuska wrote:
That Extended Daze does take up one 1st level spell slot, but it doesn't expend it when cast. See that quote in first post.

Your missing my point, your cantrip doesnt expend thats fine and you can cast that cantrip another 20 thousand times without any metamagic on it, however you lose a level one slot though as for instance playing a wizard you set your slots at the start of the day so it slots into a level 1 hole.

If playing a sorceror you lose a level 1 slot as per normal.


This is one phrase where extra meaning cant be read into it on its own. It only talks about cantrips not enhanced cantrips through meta magic.


This is how metamagic works. It enhances a spell, at the cost of a higher level spell slot required to cast the spell. It doesn't magically turn a spell into a higher level spell. An Empowered fireball is a 3rd level spell, regardless of the fact that it takes a 5th level slot. It works the same way for cantrips.

Edit: And the fact that there's no special rules for cantrips and metamagic tells us that they don't have any special rules to follow regarding metamagic and cantrip interaction.


Lehmuska wrote:
This is how metamagic works. It enhances a espell, at the cost of a higher level spell slot required to cast the spell. It doesn't magically turn a spell into a higher level spell. An Empowered fireball is a 3rd level spell, regardless of the fact that it takes a 5th level slot. It works the same way for cantrips.

Thanks you answered your own point..at the cost of a higher level spell slot, so you can still cast a non meta magic cantrip all day but you lose a level 1 slot every time you cast the meta magic version.

Thats what I am saying.

Im pointing out you cant keep casting the meta magic version all day is all.

I know the rule, I DM pathfinder I was just paraphrasing.

Metamagic has its own rules, its not an excuse to find ways round it ;)


Dracon wrote:
Thanks you answered your own point..at the cost of a higher level spell slot, so you can still cast a non meta magic cantrip all day but you lose a level 1 slot every time you cast the meta magic version.

Point out where I did that.

A cantrip has a property that says it's not expended when cast and can be used again.

A cantrip with metamagic is still a cantrip. It might take up some other spell slot, but it's a cantrip.

Therefore, a cantrip with metamagic is not expended when cast and may be used again.


Lehmuska wrote:
Dracon wrote:
Thanks you answered your own point..at the cost of a higher level spell slot, so you can still cast a non meta magic cantrip all day but you lose a level 1 slot every time you cast the meta magic version.

Point out where I did that.

A cantrip has a property that says it's not expended when cast and can be used again.

A cantrip with metamagic is still a cantrip. It might take up some other spell slot, but it's a cantrip.

Therefore, a cantrip with metamagic is not expended when cast and may be used again.

Your missing my point your cantrip isnt expended but you as a wizard have say 4 level 1 spell slots per day.

You cast an enhanced cantrip you now have 3 level 1 spell slots. You can still cast the level 0 slot cantrip all day though.

You dont get free higher spell slots for enhanced cantrips no matter if your cantrips are free to use all day.

I think you may need an official ruling, but its certainly not a gem and I dont know many DMs who would let it through.

Sovereign Court

I find those nice little quirks.

A wizard with Silent & Still Ghost Sound (2nd-level slot) and Eschew Materials feat would be the extreme ventriloquist. Always talking somewhere else.


Dracon wrote:
Your missing my point

I find it hard to argue your point if you don't back it up with rules.


Lehmuska wrote:
Dracon wrote:
Your missing my point
I find it hard to argue your point if you don't back it up with rules.

I am giving you the rules, you are trying to bend them. When you have read and understood the rules you will be free to say that line again.

I have given you the full step by step, I am sorry I could not be any clearer for you.

According to what you think I have an unlimited allotment of level 1 and above to put enhanced cantrips in. You unfortunately are wrong.


I'm with Dracon on this. When you metamagically change a cantrip, it's no longer a "cantrip" but a spell.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.”

When you can fit a metamagicked spell into one of the slots listed on Table: Wizard under the number "0", which this paragraph begins by calling out explicitly, please let me know.

Actually, no, don't bother.

Liberty's Edge

Sorry mate Dracon is spot on with what he says. Once a 0 level spell is increased to a level 1 spell by adding metamagic feats onto it it no longer is classed as a 0 level spell. Therefore it is subject to the limited spell alllottments that your 1st level spells are limited to.


tejón wrote:
PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.”

When you can fit a metamagicked spell into one of the slots listed on Table: Wizard under the number "0", which this paragraph begins by calling out explicitly, please let me know.

Actually, no, don't bother.

I heard gnomes could use 0 level spell slots for ninth level spells once...or was it halflings?


Dracon wrote:
I am giving you the rules, you are trying to bend them. When you have read and understood the rules you will be free to say that line again.

No. You haven't given me rules. You've given me something you claim as rules. Nowhere have you for example quoted PRD or the core rulebook.

Anyway, I should be wrong about this. Cantrips shouldn't work like this. However, until there's sufficent evidence against them working like this, they do.

Dark Archive

Lehmuska wrote:
Dracon wrote:
I am giving you the rules, you are trying to bend them. When you have read and understood the rules you will be free to say that line again.

No. You haven't given me rules. You've given me something you claim as rules. Nowhere have you for example quoted PRD or the core rulebook.

Anyway, I should be wrong about this. Cantrips shouldn't work like this. However, until there's sufficent evidence against them working like this, they do.

PFSRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

This is a really simple GM fix.

Cantrips are 0 level spells. As soon as you apply metamagic the level of spell is > 0. This means that you cannot recast them, as they cease being 0 level spells. If you play that raw, feel free, but that's the wackiest interpretation I know of, and I highly doubt anyone with a rational mind would allow it, even in PFS where they are forced to play RAW.

EDIT: TO clarify the point, in this case the cantrip description is referring not to the spells themselves, but the slots.


Lehmuska wrote:
Dracon wrote:
I am giving you the rules, you are trying to bend them. When you have read and understood the rules you will be free to say that line again.

No. You haven't given me rules. You've given me something you claim as rules. Nowhere have you for example quoted PRD or the core rulebook.

Anyway, I should be wrong about this. Cantrips shouldn't work like this. However, until there's sufficent evidence against them working like this, they do.

There is evidence if you read the metamagic rules and feats.

"empowered spell" - An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spells actualy level.

Right from actual rules: an empowered daze uses up a level 2 slot.

I have three level 2 slots available today. Ill put my "EMPOWERED" daze into one of them..righto. I still have daze as a 0 level.

WIZARD: Can cast that level 2 slot empowered daze ONCE unless he has prepared three of them. Can cast 0 slot/level daze unlimited.

SORCEROR: Can cast level 2 slot empowered daze up to three times. Can cast 0 slot/level daze at will.

Edited: To tone it down a bit

Dark Archive

Dracon wrote:
Lehmuska wrote:
Dracon wrote:
I am giving you the rules, you are trying to bend them. When you have read and understood the rules you will be free to say that line again.

No. You haven't given me rules. You've given me something you claim as rules. Nowhere have you for example quoted PRD or the core rulebook.

Anyway, I should be wrong about this. Cantrips shouldn't work like this. However, until there's sufficent evidence against them working like this, they do.

No disrepect but I could copy and paste the rulebook for you, but I envisage you would still not read it. There is perfect evidence if you read the metamagic rules and feats.

"empowered spell" - An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spells actualy level.

Right from actual rules: an empowered daze uses up a level 2 slot.

Oooh I have three level 2 slots available today. Ill put my "EMPOWERED" daze into one of them..righto. I still have daze as a 0 level.

WIZARD: Can cast that level 2 slot empowered daze ONCE unless he has prepared three of them. Can cast 0 slot/level daze unlimited.

SORCEROR: Can cast level 2 slot empowered daze up to three times. Can cast 0 slot/level daze at will.

Dracon, calm down dude, this is a case where you aren't on the same wavelength. He's arguing that cantrips refers to 0 level spells, not the 0 level spell SLOTS.


The whole point is that RAW Lehmuska is absolutely correct, even though his interpretation is against the spirit of the rules. This is what's called a rules loophole. And yes, I am aware that its easy to fix with a house rule. However, for example in an organized play environment, we don't have that luxury. Until an official errata, the rules are that a cantrip that gets metamagic'ed is still a cantrip and follows the rules of cantrips.


Dissenger spelt it out perfectly and its not a GM fix as it says can prepare a number of cantrips (just a name for the slot left over from 1st ed or whatever) which are 0 level spells.

Metamagic means it aint a 0 level spell no more so the rule of unlimited casting no longer applies.


Navdi wrote:
The whole point is that RAW Lehmuska is absolutely correct, even though his interpretation is against the spirit of the rules. This is what's called a rules loophole. And yes, I am aware that its easy to fix with a house rule. However, for example in an organized play environment, we don't have that luxury. Until an official errata, the rules are that a cantrip that gets metamagic'ed is still a cantrip and follows the rules of cantrips.

Cantrip is just a name Navdi, we are talking level 0 spell slots. Ignore the name cantrip. it could be empowered to ninth level slot and still called a cantrip but you cant cast it unlimited.

"Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells,"

means

Im afraid anyone who tries that on would be looking for a new group every week.

Sovereign Court

Are people dyslexic? Let's quote PRD again.

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

Cantrips are 0-level spells. Thus cantrips are spells. Neithan's argument is destroyed. Moving on.

Also, cantrips are 0-level, meaning they have a level. Metamagic increases the level of the slot which it uses. 0 + 1 = 1, meaning it uses 1st-level slot. There are no 0-level slots, but there are 1-level slots, which metamagic'd cantrips use. Moving on.

These spells are cast like any other spell. So far so good. This way they'd use the slot as normal. Seems like- oops! Oh let's see, "But they are not expended when cast and may be used again."

So, they are spells, right? Metamagic doesn't change what it is, it changes how it works. Thus, it's still a spell. A spell. And according to the exception it is not expended, i.e. doesn't use a slot.

Also another quote:

PRD wrote:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

So, cantrip is a spell, and according to rules you can fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. You can put a cantrip to a 9-level slot if you really want. Metamagic doesn't make this any different.

Conclusion: Cantrips with metamagic don't expend the slot they are put into. However they are by no means powerful or game-breaking, merely just funny.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I believe Dracon and everyone else are describing the process as it is intended, however I can agree that to some extent the wording is potentially open to interpretation - this is what the OP is referring to.

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

A wizard who prepares a Cantrip using a metamagic feat has still prepared a Cantrip, just not in a Zero level slot. The PRD also states that "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell...", so a metamagic enhanced cantrip is still a 0-level spell.

So if you read literally then yes, a metamagic enhanced cantrip could be cast At Will, however I have no doubt that this was not the intention, nor would it be allowed by many GMs.


Dissinger wrote:
Dracon, calm down dude, this is a case where you aren't on the same wavelength. He's arguing that cantrips refers to 0 level spells, not the 0 level spell SLOTS.

I was going to write a long post about this, but that about sums it up.

I think I'll still give the evidence for why a cantrip is a level 0 spell and not a level 0 slot. Boldings should spell it out nicely.

PRD wrote:

Sorcerers

Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.

Amusing discovery, by the way. A sorcerer has no such thing as a level 0 slot but it still has level 0 spells. How can this be if a cantrip is a level 0 slot? If you're going to tell me I'm wrong on this, could you please quote the rules that say so, otherwise your post will be just empty words. (just to be on the safe side, that "you" in previous sentence is a generic one.)

PRD wrote:

Wizards

Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).


DigitalMage wrote:

I believe Dracon and everyone else are describing the process as it is intended, however I can agree that to some extent the wording is potentially open to interpretation - this is what the OP is referring to.

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

A wizard who prepares a Cantrip using a metamagic feat has still prepared a Cantrip, just not in a Zero level slot. The PRD also states that "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell...", so a metamagic enhanced cantrip is still a 0-level spell.

So if you read literally then yes, a metamagic enhanced cantrip could be cast At Will, however I have no doubt that this was not the intention, nor would it be allowed by many GMs.

Nice post to finish on mate and yes your right we are all explaining this as intended rather than how much we can read a line and use it to our advantage (and our group will tell you I am a bit of a powergamer myself), you can read whatever you like into almost any written work, rulebooks are no different. However whether its in organised play or home play I could never see this going through any DM.

Dark Archive

Deussu wrote:

Are people dyslexic? Let's quote PRD again.

PRD wrote:
Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

Cantrips are 0-level spells. Thus cantrips are spells. Neithan's argument is destroyed. Moving on.

There are no 0-level slots, but there are 1-level slots, which metamagic'd cantrips use.

PRD says what now? I think there are quite clearly 0 level spell slots, otherwise you could not prepare them, as it refers them under spells per day, which would mean there are in fact 0 level spell slots.

QED.


Also by the way I am perfectly calm that was just a step by step through it ;)

It seems you have already made up your mind how you would play it so please enjoy your games doing so.

My wavelength was simply if its in a level 1 slot, it expends that level 1 slot for the day. If its in a level 0 slot i.e not metamagic applied in anyway, it doesnt expend.

(n.b I toned down that other post as fair enough after reading back it did come across a little over-zealous.)

Sovereign Court

Dissinger wrote:

PRD says what now? I think there are quite clearly 0 level spell slots, otherwise you could not prepare them, as it refers them under spells per day, which would mean there are in fact 0 level spell slots.

QED.

How observant! Good, good!

Yes, there are 0-level slots, amusingly only with wizards though. What about sorcerers? Oh well, it doesn't really make a difference to the argument at hand. My bad.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Acid Splash (1d3 Cold Damage) (Lvl 0)

Silent Acid Splash (Lvl 1)
Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 2)
Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 3)
Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 5)
Maximised Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 8)

BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!

Or for more random beardiness

Quickened Maximised Empowered Enlarged Acid Splash (Lvl 9)

BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AS A FREE ACTION AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!

I HAVE BECOME DEATH! DESTROYER OF... erm... KOBOLDS!

Dark Archive

Deussu wrote:
Dissinger wrote:

PRD says what now? I think there are quite clearly 0 level spell slots, otherwise you could not prepare them, as it refers them under spells per day, which would mean there are in fact 0 level spell slots.

QED.

How observant! Good, good!

Yes, there are 0-level slots. That doesn't really make a difference to the argument however. My bad.

It does when you think the mention of 0-level spells refers to the slots, and not the spells that are put into them.

That description could easily mean that instead of the interpretation you guys seem to. Its more reasonable too.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Deussu wrote:
PRD wrote:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

Interesting quote from the PRD and it leads me to this...

A wizard wants to prepare the following Cantrips: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic and Light. However he only has three 0-level spell slots, so to prepare all four Cantrips he uses a 1-level spell slot (for Light).

No metamagic here, he has prepared 4 cantrips according to the Wizard Table. Does he get to cast Light (prepared in the 1-level slot) at will or only once?

While I think most people will agree that using the literal reading of the Cantrip write up to use Metamagic enhanced cantrips at will would be a bit too powerful (and probably not what was intended) I can see that the OP's reading of the RAW would be more likely to be accepted by a GM if the player wanted to use higher level slots to cast extra Cantrips at will.

So a clever rules lawyer would first propose a scenario like I did above and a GM may reasonably allow it, however by doing so the GM would set a precedent that the rule talks about spells and not spell slots, opening the door for the rule lawyer to then press the metamagic enhanced cantrip loop hole.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Acid Splash (1d3 Cold Damage) (Lvl 0)

Silent Acid Splash (Lvl 1)
Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 2)
Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 3)
Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 5)
Maximised Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 8)

BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!

Or for more random beardiness

Quickened Maximised Empowered Enlarged Acid Splash (Lvl 9)

BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AS A FREE ACTION AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!

I HAVE BECOME DEATH! DESTROYER OF... erm... KOBOLDS!

I was going to ask how high you could get it too level wise lol.

1) I think Kobold protection league going to be involved there.

2) Admittedly you may be using time stop or something else, but there is bound to be a very annoying combination in there somewhere.

Sovereign Court

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Acid Splash (1d3 Cold Damage) (Lvl 0)

Silent Acid Splash (Lvl 1)
Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 2)
Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 3)
Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 5)
Maximised Empowered Enlarged Silent Still Acid Splash (Lvl 8)

BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!

Or for more random beardiness

Quickened Maximised Empowered Enlarged Acid Splash (Lvl 9)

BEHOLD MY 4 DAMAGE AS A FREE ACTION AT 130 FEET DISTANCE AT WILL AND DESPAIR!

I HAVE BECOME DEATH! DESTROYER OF... erm... KOBOLDS!

Hehe, thank you Dudemeister. :) As much as I talk in favor of endless acid splash turretry, it's very ineffective and frankly stupid.

But come on, you'd get to play an autoturret! *PEW PEW PEW* "Take that, you filthy kobolds! Bwahaha!"


Dissinger wrote:

It does when you think the mention of 0-level spells refers to the slots, and not the spells that are put into them.

That description could easily mean that instead of the interpretation you guys seem to. Its more reasonable too.

But sorcerers and bards have no level 0 spell slots (or spells per day, as they might be called somewhere). How can cantrips be spell slots if sorcerers and bards don't have them?


DigitalMage wrote:
Deussu wrote:
PRD wrote:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

Interesting quote from the PRD and it leads me to this...

A wizard wants to prepare the following Cantrips: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic and Light. However he only has three 0-level spell slots, so to prepare all four Cantrips he uses a 1-level spell slot (for Light).

No metamagic here, he has prepared 4 cantrips according to the Wizard Table. Does he get to cast Light (prepared in the 1-level slot) at will or only once?

While I think most people will agree that using the literal reading of the Cantrip write up to use Metamagic enhanced cantrips at will would be a bit too powerful (and probably not what was intended) I can see that the OP's reading of the RAW would be more likely to be accepted by a GM if the player wanted to use higher level slots to cast extra Cantrips at will.

So a clever rules lawyer would first propose a scenario like I did above and a GM may reasonably allow it, however by doing so the GM would set a precedent that the rule talks about spells and not spell slots, opening the door for the rule lawyer to then press the metamagic enhanced cantrip loop hole.

Actually mate thinking about I would not hesitate to allow a person preparing a level 0 without enhancement within his level 1 slot (effectively for the day sacrificing a level 1 slot whether its wizard or sorceror) because in fact he/she is actually losing out for the benefit of using a minor at will. (some good damaging level 1 spells for instance).


Lehmuska wrote:
Dissinger wrote:

It does when you think the mention of 0-level spells refers to the slots, and not the spells that are put into them.

That description could easily mean that instead of the interpretation you guys seem to. Its more reasonable too.

But sorcerers and bards have no level 0 spell slots (or spells per day, as they might be called somewhere). How can cantrips be spell slots if sorcerers and bards don't have them?

It doesnt matter either way in that regard until you metamagic it where it comes into spell slot territory.

Liberty's Edge

LMAO. DM_aka_Dudemeister that example of the empowered acid splash cracked me up.
Seriously though i think most of us know the way it is supposed to be used and how it should read so lets not waste time argueing over something thats just common sense. Just enjoy the game lifes too short. Unless your Violet Staunton huh Dracon lol?

Dark Archive

Lehmuska wrote:
Dissinger wrote:
Dracon, calm down dude, this is a case where you aren't on the same wavelength. He's arguing that cantrips refers to 0 level spells, not the 0 level spell SLOTS.

I was going to write a long post about this, but that about sums it up.

I think I'll still give the evidence for why a cantrip is a level 0 spell and not a level 0 slot. Boldings should spell it out nicely.

PRD wrote:

Sorcerers

Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.

Amusing discovery, by the way. A sorcerer has no such thing as a level 0 slot but it still has level 0 spells. How can this be if a cantrip is a level 0 slot? If you're going to tell me I'm wrong on this, could you please quote the rules that say so, otherwise your post will be just empty words. (just to be on the safe side, that "you" in previous sentence is a generic one.)

PRD wrote:

Wizards

Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

You do point out something interesting. It could be a case that since the sorcerer doesn't have spells per day for his cantrips, it creates a situation he could theoretically waste feat choices to any number of times per day cast his zero level spells as a full round action to cast spells, when the wizard could not.

Due to differing mechanics, they can hardly be called the exact same class feature, as one is based on spells prepared, and the other on spells KNOWN.

So in this case, you'd have to be a sorcerer to create a full round action to cast a level 0 spell.

Cute, but hardly in any way shape or form useful. Unless you want to quicken it to make it a swift action. I guess you could get some mileage out of it...


Leave the cantrip and look at the feat. When a cantrip is modified by a meatmagic feat it occupies a higher spell slot thus locking the slot. Now when said spellcaster casts his spell he releases the energy from the metamagic feat thus expending the spell slot. The metamagic is gone not the cantrip. So what you would get would be one use of a modified cantrip and then a higher level slot locked with a cantrip spell.


voorhees wrote:

LMAO. DM_aka_Dudemeister that example of the empowered acid splash cracked me up.

Seriously though i think most of us know the way it is supposed to be used and how it should read so lets not waste time argueing over something thats just common sense. Just enjoy the game lifes too short. Unless your Violet Staunton huh Dracon lol?

Shes so far beyond challenge ratings, the rules would collapse trying to convert from Chaosium rules ;)

Cthulhu himself was out last time she called round, but the curtains were twitching ;)


Frostflame wrote:
Leave the cantrip and look at the feat. When a cantrip is modified by a meatmagic feat it occupies a higher spell slot thus locking the slot. Now when said spellcaster casts his spell he releases the energy from the metamagic feat thus expending the spell slot. The metamagic is gone not the cantrip. So what you would get would be one use of a modified cantrip and then a higher level slot locked with a cantrip spell.

Nice way of putting it.

Dark Archive

Fear my Chain, Extended, Twinned, Repeating Daze!

And, when I get high enough level, I can Persist Prestidigitation. Yanno, just because I can.

Dark Archive

Set wrote:

Fear my Chain, Extended, Twinned, Repeating Daze!

And, when I get high enough level, I can Persist Prestidigitation. Yanno, just because I can.

^ this is why I worry about it...add heightened to the mix and things could get real...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Anyway, I was reading Complete Mage the other day after being posted in the direction of Reserve Feats. If you want some At Will damage spells, Reserve Feats are the way to go.

Have a 2nd Level Acid spell in a prepared slot? Then with the Acidic Splatter feat you can go around lobbing 2d6 acid damage attacks all day (as long as you don't cast that 2nd level Acid spell).

If a GM allows Reserve Feats i actually don't think they should have an issue with metamagic enhanced cantrips at will.


DigitalMage wrote:

Anyway, I was reading Complete Mage the other day after being posted in the direction of Reserve Feats. If you want some At Will damage spells, Reserve Feats are the way to go.

Have a 2nd Level Acid spell in a prepared slot? Then with the Acidic Splatter feat you can go around lobbing 2d6 acid damage attacks all day (as long as you don't cast that 2nd level Acid spell).

If a GM allows Reserve Feats i actually don't think they should have an issue with metamagic enhanced cantrips at will.

Dont go all power gamer you, it doesnt fit the persona ;) Some things added later in by the people at Wizards went a bit craaaazzzyy trying things out.

Besides as they say in star wars, they are a bit of a trap and in reality aint that fantastic.


Reserve feats are a bit like making a wizard into a warlock, and I cant say warlocks overpowered because I play one in your Freeport...damn

It does start to put you in the blaster-caster pigeonhole a bit, whereas the controller is always a fun mage choice and a favourite of any party.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Frostflame wrote:
Now when said spellcaster casts his spell he releases the energy from the metamagic feat thus expending the spell slot. The metamagic is gone not the cantrip.

Could you post a reference that states that the metamagic is "used up" - just in case we wanted to point it out to a rules lawyer?

The Exchange

Dissinger wrote:
Set wrote:

Fear my Chain, Extended, Twinned, Repeating Daze!

And, when I get high enough level, I can Persist Prestidigitation. Yanno, just because I can.

^ this is why I worry about it...add heightened to the mix and things could get real...

Wouldn't heighten actually increase the level of the spell and hence render it not a cantrip?

1 to 50 of 259 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / A little gem about 0 level spells. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.