Actually, after looking at the feat again, I think it works a little differently than we're assuming. MC just allows you to count your skill ranks as caster levels for qualifying for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Misc. items. There aren't any other restrictions listed. Apparently if you have Craft: Basket weaving and take MC, you can them take Craft Magic Arms and Armor and use it to make any weapon or armor. Who knew?
Well, let's see...
PFRPG Core Book (page 130): "Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats,substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
Looks pretty much like I thought. Your chosen skill level (that you've associated your MC feat with) is your "caster level" and you can create items using that skill if you have the relavent item creation feats. You associate this feat with one skill. It doesn't specify what items you can create (other than "simple", no spell trigger or spell activation items), but it does say "Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items." To me, that says the skill relates to the type of magic item you can create. Which makes sense. Some one who is great at forging mundane sword blades can create a magic sword as well. That doesn't mean he's gifted at creating boots or lutes. Just swords. A case of RAW and RAI not quite meeting where they should?
My 2 cp.
*edit* Otherwise your going to have mundane craftsmen churning out endless piles of every variety of magic items like some assembly line. I think the feat is intended to allow some limited creation of magic items, not just anything you like. On the other hand there are mythic tales about craftsmen whose skill allowed them to create magical things that weren't normally associated with their craft skill. *sigh* Still, I think I would be more restrictive on this. Ymmv.
So, if the fighter is using his father's +1 falchion, you don't all him to later make that +2?Hey, if dear old Dad's falchion +1 is not up to snuff he can make his own +2 one. I don't know, but I don't see magic as a "bolt on" type of thing. Again, ymmv.
I agree..but I have no problem using the value of the +1 falchion, melted down for reforging, as payment towards the costs to manufacture the +2 sword. The +2 falchion (IIRC) requires about 4000GP worth of materials to construct. the sale price/value of the +1 falchion is 2000GP (technically 1000 to build though so I should probably use that). Ergo, I would count the +1 falchion as 1000 of the 4000GP worth of materials required for a +2 falchion.
Batts
So, if the fighter is using his father's +1 falchion, you don't all him to later make that +2?Hey, if dear old Dad's falchion +1 is not up to snuff he can make his own +2 one. I don't know, but I don't see magic as a "bolt on" type of thing. Again, ymmv.I agree..but I have no problem using the value of the +1 falchion, melted down for reforging, as payment towards the costs to manufacture the +2 sword. The +2 falchion (IIRC) requires about 4000GP worth of materials to construct. the sale price/value of the +1 falchion is 2000GP (technically 1000 to build though so I should probably use that). Ergo, I would count the +1 falchion as 1000 of the 4000GP worth of materials required for a +2 falchion.
Batts
I'm coming in late here, but thought i should clarify this point. Page 553 of Core states:
"The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
That's effectively what you're saying Iczer, but you don't actually need to melt down the +1 sword.
I think the intention of the wording is the unsaid '..where relevant..'
Profession smith could be used for armour, weapons etc. I wouldn't use it to make folding boats though. Likewise Craft carpentry is good for making quarterstaves, the occasional wooden breastplate, or the aforementioned folding boat, but probably not a flying carpet.
Time for the GM to moderate where he feels comfortable though.
Batts
Actually, after looking at the feat again, I think it works a little differently than we're assuming. MC just allows you to count your skill ranks as caster levels for qualifying for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Misc. items. There aren't any other restrictions listed. Apparently if you have Craft: Basket weaving and take MC, you can them take Craft Magic Arms and Armor and use it to make any weapon or armor. Who knew?
My problem is the "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." Under the item creation rules there are usually two skills mentioned you can use to enchant something. One is Spellcraft the other is whatever Craft or Profession skill fits for making the item. The sentence in the feat description can either mean that you are only allowed to enchant items where you are allowed to use the skill you took the feat for or it can mean that the skill replaces whatever skill would usually be used for the enchanting, especially since you can't use the feat with other skills.
You missed an easy one...
Farmer/Gardener - Magic beans
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As mentioned above, the crafter does not have to ~make~ the item in question - only enchant it. If they have figured out a way to use cooking to turn a regular sword into a masterwork sword, more power to them.
Magic is like cooking. Think about it.
Spells are recipes. You need to have all the ingredients or no one wants to buy the the spell cake.
So a Cook making a magical item makes sense. It's icing on the sword for non-casters everywhere!
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I feel like this, if your GM/DM is willing to let you get away with it (making ANY magic item with WHATEVER skill,) that's his own deal. He has to live with it. I just feel that it violates the spirit of the rule. Plain and simple. I think it is silly of a player to ask... that's just irresponsible role-playing! ^_^
Yeah, in all seriousness, I'm pretty sure the whole point of this was to emulate the fantasy trope of the craftsman that, while they don't have any supernatural abilities and they aren't spellcasters, they make the one perfect version of an item that is pretty much a magic item, due to their amazing skill.
I think the reason that the Profession skills end up on the list has to do with the corner case situations of overlap. For example, magical food . . . do you use Craft (Pastries) for that, or do you have Profession (Cook). You could argue that it creates an item, so its a craft skill, but it creates an item that normally isn't going to be around for very long.
Well, I'd point out that back in a little well-known story that goes by the name of "Forgotten Realms", Bruenor Battlehammer, a pure dwarf fighter and king of Mithral halls, crafted a +3 mithral dwarven thrower maul for his adoptive barbarian son. He spent a lot of time carving runes on the head of the hammer (Equivalence of spells, I guess), and used expensive diamond dust in the sealing of the runes.
That didn't use spells, but certainly needed particular crafting knowledges to magically imbue the item. I guess the feat illustrates such.
In any case, it gets cheesy if the character using such a feat is a combat munchkin that doesn't play out his crafting heritage much, so DM discretion is advised.
Yeah, in all seriousness, I'm pretty sure the whole point of this was to emulate the fantasy trope of the craftsman that, while they don't have any supernatural abilities and they aren't spellcasters, they make the one perfect version of an item that is pretty much a magic item, due to their amazing skill.
That's certainly how I would rule it.
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Well, I'd point out that back in a little well-known story that goes by the name of "Forgotten Realms", Bruenor Battlehammer, a pure dwarf fighter and king of Mithral halls, crafted a +3 mithral dwarven thrower maul for his adoptive barbarian son. He spent a lot of time carving runes on the head of the hammer (Equivalence of spells, I guess), and used expensive diamond dust in the sealing of the runes.
That didn't use spells, but certainly needed particular crafting knowledges to magically imbue the item. I guess the feat illustrates such.
In any case, it gets cheesy if the character using such a feat is a combat munchkin that doesn't play out his crafting heritage much, so DM discretion is advised.
If I remember correctly... Bruenor read from a scroll, threw the diamond dust in the air, and flash! All done... So a spell was done... technically. But, it IS a good example of a master crafter, perhaps he didn't want to risk that +5 DC, eh? ^_^
I would be also be inclined to consider this like a swordsmith named Masamune, whose blades were so perfect that they were almost mystical in quality!
Well, I'd point out that back in a little well-known story that goes by the name of "Forgotten Realms", Bruenor Battlehammer, a pure dwarf fighter and king of Mithral halls, crafted a +3 mithral dwarven thrower maul for his adoptive barbarian son. He spent a lot of time carving runes on the head of the hammer (Equivalence of spells, I guess), and used expensive diamond dust in the sealing of the runes.
That didn't use spells, but certainly needed particular crafting knowledges to magically imbue the item. I guess the feat illustrates such.
In any case, it gets cheesy if the character using such a feat is a combat munchkin that doesn't play out his crafting heritage much, so DM discretion is advised.
I always looked at that as a good example of an Incantation from Unearthed Arcana, and wrote it up that way for Candlekeep at one point in time. Mainly because it did have some spell "window dressing" and wasn't just covered under the crafting of the hammer.
So, if the fighter is using his father's +1 falchion, you don't all him to later make that +2?Hey, if dear old Dad's falchion +1 is not up to snuff he can make his own +2 one. I don't know, but I don't see magic as a "bolt on" type of thing. Again, ymmv.I agree..but I have no problem using the value of the +1 falchion, melted down for reforging, as payment towards the costs to manufacture the +2 sword. The +2 falchion (IIRC) requires about 4000GP worth of materials to construct. the sale price/value of the +1 falchion is 2000GP (technically 1000 to build though so I should probably use that). Ergo, I would count the +1 falchion as 1000 of the 4000GP worth of materials required for a +2 falchion.
Batts
I'm coming in late here, but thought i should clarify this point. Page 553 of Core states:
"The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
That's effectively what you're saying Iczer, but you don't actually need to melt down the +1 sword.
I'd guess you would be re-forging the blade, rather like Aragorn's blade was reforged in LotR. So the original blade would be raw materials for the new, thus cutting down on the costs. So, in effect you would "melt down" the original blade :)
Or profession (midwife) to make magical babies!
I thought there was a whole different profession involved in actually making the baby.
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I'd like a crack at seeing if I can help clear up some of the confusion regarding the Master Craftsmen feat.
I'm going to use a suit of armor for my example.
To create a magical suit of armor, you essentially need to do two things. First, you need to acquire or fabricate a of suit of armor (masterwork). Second, you need to enchant said armor.
The skill Craft (Armor) allows you to fabricate a suit of armor from raw materials (leather, metal etc). The skill Craft (Armor) does not allow you to enchant armor no matter how many skill ranks you have in the skill.
The feat Craft Arms and Armor allows you to enchant suits of armor. The feat Craft Arms and Armor does not allow you to fabricate suits of armor, only enchant them.
To enchant suits of armor, it is a requirement that you have the Craft Arms and Armor feat. The prerequisite for this feat is you need to have a spell caster level of 5.
So at this point, someone with just the skill could fabricate the armor, but not enchant it. Someone with just the feat could enchant the armor, but not actually fabricate it. The first guy needs to find someone with the feat, while the second guy only needs to find/purchase/steal/etc a suit of armor (masterwork). Someone with the skill and the feat is good to go. All of this assumes they are successful on all checks and rolls.
Now, the Master Craftsmen feat allows those without the requisite 5 caster levels to use the ranks of some skill craft or profession to qualify for the Craft Arms and Armor feat. You substitute these ranks for your caster level and you must also use the skill ranks of that chosen skill for the check to enchant the armor. That is all.
The Master Craftsmen feat does not allow you to fabricate armor, you still need the skill Craft (Armor) for that. Nor does the Master Craftsmen feat allow you to enchant armor. For that you still need the feat Craft Arms and Armor.
The Master Craftsmen feat gives non-spell casters the ability to enchant a restricted assortment of magical items. Weapons, armor and wondrous items, non of which can be spell trigger or spell completion items.
It is also worth noting that non-spell casters, will still usually have a tougher time than regular spell casters, as they will find it harder to meet other spell requirements for item enchantment. Meaning a higher DC check.
Anyhow, as to use the example of the guy with skill Profession (Mime) making a suit of full plate +1. First he needs 5 ranks in Profession (Mime). Second, he needs to take the feat Master Craftsmen (Mime). Third he needs to take the Craft Arms and Armor feat qualifying with his ranks in Mime in place of the prerequisite caster levels . At this point he either needs to find/purchase/steal/etc a suit of masterwork full plate or he needs to take skill ranks in Craft (armor) and successfully fabricate a masterwork suit of full plate from raw materials and meeting time requirements etc.
He then enchants the armor using the Craft Arms and Armor feat, substituting his skill ranks in Profession (Mime) for his caster level and skill check (which is usually a Spellcraft check, but not with Master Craftsmen in the mix). He must also meet all other requirements for magic item creation (armor in this example) and suffering any penalties to his DC check as normal.
In the end, while it may seem a little silly to enchant a suit of armor using, essentially, ranks in Mime. He didn't in fact fabricate the armor using Mime. Nor did he actually enchant it with Mime. He enchanted the armor by learning to enchant arms and armor (as per the feat expenditure) by using his expertise in a skill or profession in place of actual magical aptitude.
It is also worth noting that our Mime from the example cannot fabricate and/or enchant, any wondrous magical items, as that would require (possibly) other skills in craft as well as yet another feat (required).
I think that some of the confusion is born of the similarity of the names of skill Craft and the Craft feats. In my opinion, the feats should have been called Enchant Arms and Armor, Enchant Wondrous Items etc. You can't actually craft anything with the feats alone.
This is my take anyhow. Hopefully this helped clear up some things...
Cheers
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My problem is the "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." Under the item creation rules there are usually two skills mentioned you can use to enchant something. One is Spellcraft the other is whatever Craft or Profession skill fits for making the item. The sentence in the feat description can either mean that you are only allowed to enchant items where you are allowed to use the skill you took the feat for or it can mean that the skill replaces whatever skill would usually be used for the enchanting, especially since you can't use the feat with other skills.
Any skill that is listed in the magical item creation requirements is not actually a hard requirement. (Example: Boat, Folding has a bit about "creator must have 2 ranks in the Craft (ships) skill"). As with spells listed in the item creation requirements (again in the boat, the fabricate spell is listed), these can be ignored* for a +5 to the DC to create the item in question.
EDIT: *unless the item being created is a spell trigger or spell completion magic item. Then the spells listed are required and cannot be ignored for the +5 DC penalty.
EDIT: *unless the item being created is a spell trigger or spell completion magic item. Then the spells listed are required and cannot be ignored for the +5 DC penalty.
Which doesn't matter for the Master Craftsman feat. A non-caster can not create a spell trigger or spell creation magic item. It's prohibited in the Master Craftsman feat description. Just a "simple" magic item. And, again, I would think the skill / profession tied to the feat has to have some connection to the type of item being created. As always, ymmv.
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Which doesn't matter for the Master Craftsman feat. A non-caster can not create a spell trigger or spell creation magic item. It's prohibited in the Master Craftsman feat description. Just a "simple" magic item.
Agreed. I wasn't commenting specifically about Master Craftsmen, more to the skill versus spellcraft check bit...
And, again, I would think the skill / profession tied to the feat has to have some connection to the type of item being created. As always, ymmv.
Of course it is "silly" to think of a mime creating magic armor, but like I said, the mime part is largely irrelevant to the creation of the magic armor. It does not come into play in the fabrication of the armor. It is merely the substitution for magical aptitude for the enchantment part of the equation, which they paid for and learned by the expenditure of the feat. It is like graduate studies. Expertise in Profession (Mime) got you a degree and acceptance to post graduate work, Craft Arms and Armor. :)
Cheers
craft (tailoring) can arguably cover every slot except rings. tis also the go to craft for slotted wondrous items.
You really have to apply reason. Otherwise you have Profession Wetnurse, Profession Groom, and Profession Ragpicker all somehow able to make magic swords, somehow, by nursing babies, grooming horses, and finding rags to sell.
Ditto Profession Hairdresser.
I think it's better for each GM to just say "This is the list of magical professions for my world and all the other ones are mundane" and have done with it.
I think it's better for each GM to just say "This is the list of magical professions for my world and all the other ones are mundane" and have done with it.
Personally I'd put the onus on the players: if they can come up with a cool enough description of how they're making the item with their profession they can make it.
Personally, I use Profession (Leatherworker) as an acceptable skill for most wondrous items, and, with a stretch of imagination, even arms and armors.
And, thinking about what a spellcaster actually does when casting spell (especially Silent ones), a Mime is perfectly acceptable as a "non-magical spellcaster".
Baker/Brewer/Cook - Magical consumables (Ooh, magic gingerbread men!)
That witch in "Hansel and Gretel" just got a whole lot more scary. She's taking over the woods, one gingerbread regiment at a time. (Beware the Cavalry)
So a character that has "Master Craftsman(alchemy)" still can't brew potions?
Ditto Profession Hairdresser.
"Hairstyle of Opposing Alignment"
Ooh ooh!
Mime-Scrolls of silence.
Maybe invisible boxes?
I didn't check. Did I beat anyone to the punch?
Why aren't permanently invisible version of mundane objects accounted for in the "wondrous items" section?
Probably because you don't need a feat to create them:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/permanencyPermanent invisibility on an item costs 5000 gp to cast, so probably 10 000 gp to buy.
You really have to apply reason. Otherwise you have Profession Wetnurse, Profession Groom, and Profession Ragpicker all somehow able to make magic swords, somehow, by nursing babies, grooming horses, and finding rags to sell.
Wetnurse - Can see the magic in little children's eyes, and knows that if she lays a blade in the teardrops of threehundred and twenty-four newborn babies, the blade shall become a beacon of light to destroy those who puts sorrow in the heart of children.
Groom - More or less the same thing, has collected the magic hairs of a thousand black horses or whatever.Ragpicker - So skilled they can find magical items among the junk they live in.
All it takes is a little fantasy.
I figured I'd take MC for my Alchemist to make oils and whatnots, it's thematically proper for an inexperienced yet cutting edge alchemist.
And since it's alchemy there's a wider range of what you could make, i would think. Almost anything can be treated with oils and distilled moonbeams.
Oils operate under the potion mechanics and are spell trigger items. You cannot make items that basically cast a spell. That would include Exliers (wonderous items). What you can do is make a limited use item that grants a simlar effect but is not actually the spell. Say an Oil of Magic Weapon, you can't make that with Master Craftsman. You can make a single use item that grants a +1 enhancement bonus when applied to a weapon.
ehh profession is mostly a RP thing, but I do like the idea of Profession:Pickpocket, such as going after easy marks for a day for some change. Does profession still give a +2 bonus to something related to it?
Ironically, I think Profession Pickpocket could apply to a lot of things but not picking pockets. That's covered by Slight of Hand. The profession could give you benefits on being a street urchin, think Oliver Swift here, or maybe avoiding pursuit\prosecution if you're caught.
I could see a Profession Pickpocket check used to know which judge\court you want to appear in for an easy case or a bonus on fencing items.
Sigurd
Isnt it implicit that the only magic items you're going to be able to make are those that your profession would?
I'd allow a craft (cooking) magic item crafter to make those items which can be cooked (potions I guess).
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't see the problem. You can take profession (mime) and be able to make magical versions of everything a mime can make (ie nothing...) :/
No, you can make magical invisible boxes. Walls of Force, baby!
I had a Master Crafted Prostitute in a game I ran. She took her ranks in Profession (prostitute) and had class levels in Sorcerer. It was kept in check by two very basic rules hashed out before the campaign even began:
-no your caster level does not stack with your skill ranks for making items. You're not getting away with giant caster levels for items.
and
-anything you make as a Master Crafted Prostitute has to make sense. That means you have to convince me you can make it.
She ended up being able to make a multitude of cloaks, headbands of charisma, belts of dexterity and/or constitution, resistance items, hats of disguise, gaudy brooches of various magics, etc.
We only explored the wondrous item half of the feat in my game. Admittedly it was the side with more options as I doubt the chainmail bikini made with Profession (prostitute) would protect any better than a chainmail bikini made by an armorsmith.
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Professions as listed in the PF Ref Doc:
architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter
Architect/Engineer - Magically reinforced structures
Baker/Brewer/Cook - Magical consumables (Ooh, magic gingerbread men!)
Farmer/Gardener - Magic fields? Magic Crops?
Scribe - Magical tomes?
Tanner - Magical leathers, magical clothing (leather)
Herbalist - Magical poultices, teas, etc.
The others would be hard pressed to explain to me how they are crafting magical items...
Just what I would rule as DM...
Profession: Gambler is also easy to explain. You spent that much money and time to win the item or upgrade service in bets.
You know, the more I think about it, the easier it becomes to justify making just about anything with just about any profession/craft.
Farmer Bob had the magic touch. Everyone knew it. Young warriors from the village would show up at his hut with their newly minted masterwork weapons, a bag of gold, and a large diamond. Bob would send them away as often as not, but sometimes, when he felt it was right, he'd take their hard earned treasure (keeping the gold for himself, of course) and plant the rest in his prize winning garden along with a single cabbage seed. Two days of constant tending were needed, but, more often than not, sunset on the second day found a fully grown cabbage plant with the hilt of a now freshly enchanted sword sticking up through the top of the plant. As he peeled away the cabbage leaves to free the weapon, he'd give thanks to the earth for its bounty. Farmer Bob would always smile enigmatically at the look of wonder on his customers faces. "Care for the earth, and it will care for you," he'd sometimes say.
That kind of magic might not be for everyone's campaign, but I think most settings would allow for it.
Profession: Gambler is also easy to explain. You spent that much money and time to win the item or upgrade service in bets.
Or perhaps you're such a good gambler that even the gods of fortune smile upon you. The item would have to have been in the pot, though.
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Profession: Gambler is also easy to explain. You spent that much money and time to win the item or upgrade service in bets.Or perhaps you're such a good gambler that even the gods of fortune smile upon you. The item would have to have been in the pot, though.
And if a character spends a much time gambling at major events as he would actually working on crafting an item in earnest he is BOUND to come across come pretty strange wagers.
So when do we start requiring need Craftsman Skill Blacksmith, Craftsman Skill Armor, Skill Knowledge (Arcane), Profession ( miner), Profession (smith), Skill Spellcraft, & Skill Use Magic Device
Plus
Feats: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Master Craftsman, Magic Aptitude, & skill Focus.
((end exaggeration here))
VS
Buy the blood Armor from a smith, Cast spells: Enchant item, spell, spell, Permanency.... DONE.
((old D&D red box set way))
What ever happend to Magic was Magic.
I really do not see why someone needs both a Feat: Craft Magic Arms & Armor and the Craft Armor skill. As one should be used to create magic items and the other should be used to create Non-Magic items. Then having to make a SpellCraft skill check after that.... ?? why just to justify another reason for having a skill.
(( oh just ignore me... am ranting and raving out of old time sake... pulled the old 36 page PHB out of the Red box set today, and just noticed how much the rules were simpler, faster, easier to play.... which magic was used more for role play than meta-gaming. Oh, buy the way what ever happen to that 9th level wizard spell "" Create Monster "" that let wizards create magic monster out of nothing like Chimera's, Basilisk, Cockatrice, Dragon Turtles, Owl Bears, Slimes and Jelly's, etc ?? ))
It really depends on the mood of the campaign. Having a farmer who enchants weapons by planting them with cabbage is like having his wife who makes an efreeti jug out of a sauerkraut crock, explaining while the efreet who comes out is so irate: Not only did the woman with umpteen ranks in Profession Homemaker imprison him in a sauerkraut crock, she never took the sauerkraut out and he's been stewing in salted cabbage and bacon!
Certainly amusing, but if you're doing high fantasy, the master smith and the master alchemist are fine, but the magical hausfrau is not going to work for the genre. Fairytales and low fantasy, sure, but not high fantasy or sword and sorcery.