Master Craftsman... er...?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Exchange

Dorje Sylas wrote:


Oils operate under the potion mechanics and are spell trigger items. You cannot make items that basically cast a spell. That would include Exliers (wonderous items). What you can do is make a limited use item that grants a simlar effect but is not actually the spell. Say an Oil of Magic Weapon, you can't make that with Master Craftsman. You can make a single use item that grants a +1 enhancement bonus when applied to a weapon.

I'm looking at PF core pg 458 right now, which is saying Potions are Use activated, as are a great many other things, I'm not certain these are 'spell trigger' items after all. and I'm not so sure of the second thing you said. Aren't most oils/potions and elixers single use as it is?

Where did you find this info? I'd love to take a look.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

It really depends on the mood of the campaign. Having a farmer who enchants weapons by planting them with cabbage is like having his wife who makes an efreeti jug out of a sauerkraut crock, explaining while the efreet who comes out is so irate: Not only did the woman with umpteen ranks in Profession Homemaker imprison him in a sauerkraut crock, she never took the sauerkraut out and he's been stewing in salted cabbage and bacon!

Certainly amusing, but if you're doing high fantasy, the master smith and the master alchemist are fine, but the magical hausfrau is not going to work for the genre. Fairytales and low fantasy, sure, but not high fantasy or sword and sorcery.

I have to disagree. The tone of the "making" and the "maker" is set by the DM.

Profession: Executioner

Robert the Bloody knew there was magic in the blood, and after years of experimenting with techniques, last meals, prayers, and other variables, he had finally unlocked the secrets. Wealthy patrons, often working through intermediaries, would deliver a finely crafted weapon and suitable payment. For the next two days he would make the rounds of the various gaols and prisons, amputating the hands of thieves, decapitating murderers, castrating rapists, all while reciting the proper benedictions and making the proper offerings. At the end of his rounds, the once mundane weapon now glowed with the power he had stolen from his victims. All in the name of justice, of course.

Contributor

Mynameisjake wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

It really depends on the mood of the campaign. Having a farmer who enchants weapons by planting them with cabbage is like having his wife who makes an efreeti jug out of a sauerkraut crock, explaining while the efreet who comes out is so irate: Not only did the woman with umpteen ranks in Profession Homemaker imprison him in a sauerkraut crock, she never took the sauerkraut out and he's been stewing in salted cabbage and bacon!

Certainly amusing, but if you're doing high fantasy, the master smith and the master alchemist are fine, but the magical hausfrau is not going to work for the genre. Fairytales and low fantasy, sure, but not high fantasy or sword and sorcery.

I have to disagree. The tone of the "making" and the "maker" is set by the DM.

Profession: Executioner

Robert the Bloody knew there was magic in the blood, and after years of experimenting with techniques, last meals, prayers, and other variables, he had finally unlocked the secrets. Wealthy patrons, often working through intermediaries, would deliver a finely crafted weapon and suitable payment. For the next two days he would make the rounds of the various gaols and prisons, amputating the hands of thieves, decapitating murderers, castrating rapists, all while reciting the proper benedictions and making the proper offerings. At the end of his rounds, the once mundane weapon now glowed with the power he had stolen from his victims. All in the name of justice, of course.

Your counter-example is "executioner," a grim profession quite at home in high fantasy, sword and sorcery, and sturm und drang gothic.

Let's see you do the same with a profession that inspires a bit less dread, such as hairdresser, pie baker, or florist.

And no, you don't get to do a Sweeney Todd with the hairdresser and pie baker or a Little Shop of Horrors with the florist. No sideline as a serial killer or servant of an alien horror. Just hairdos, pies and flower arrangements. Make us view these as things of high fantasy, sword and sorcery, or gothic horror without adding extraneous plot elements.

Lantern Lodge

*ahem* CHALLENGE!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Me'mori wrote:
*ahem* CHALLENGE!

Challenge...accepted.

Devonia the Deft. Expert 7

Feats:
Skill Focus: Profession (Hairdresser)
Master Craftsmen
Craft Magic Arms and Armor

Devonia had spent her life learning her trade. She began at the docks offering short cuts to lice ridden sailors, with only a single set of shears and a snaggly-toothed comb. Eventually her skill and hard work had allowed her to purchase one shop, then another, each in a better district of Absalom than the one before. Her favorite customers, by far, were not the mewling aristocrats who prattled endlessly about matters of court, or even the dowdy housewives who saved a years wages to try and regain the attentions of wandering husbands. No, her favorites were the soldiers who guarded the city's walls. Young and bold, their hair was thick and strong, like her own, long lost son's had been.

Before a new campaign was to begin, she would close her shop and visit the barracks. For the cost of a copper she would cut their hair, saving a lock or braid from each of them. Some would return as heroes, but most would die in some foreign land, leaving behind a grieving mother, just as her son had. To those who grieved she would deliver the hair she taken from their lost loved one. They seemed to find great comfort in it, as did she.

For those for whom no one grieved, the lost, the lonely, the orphans, she would keep their last locks, and when she cut the hair of a new soldier who did not speak of home or hearth or family, she would ask if they would be willing to allow her to clean and oil their armor, as a token of respect for their service. At night, when the whispy clouds covered the sky like a flowing mane, she would tie a single strand of hair around every link or rivet, each one with a different knot, and she would speak the names of the missing dead who had no one else to mourn them.

The process was long and arduous, but when it was done the armor was better than it was before, and, more often than not, the soldier would return home. Sometimes the stories would come back to her, of blows turned aside that should have maimed, of arrows deflected that should have killed. As she curled the bangs of yet another self absorbed debutante, Devonia would smile to herself. She was sure her son was smiling with her, as he sat at a table in some far off heaven, surrounded by his fallen brothers that only she remembered.

Contributor

*applauds* Well done.

You mixed in personal tragedy and patriotism, but tying up locks of the hair of the dead is old magic and I'm glad someone remembered it.

I should also note that the Lebkuchen hearts still sold at German fairs date back to the ones carried as battle charms by Roman soldiers, so pie baker has an easy twist on the same story.

And the florist could be done as some Tianese gentlewoman enchanting things via the feng shui of perfectly ordered Ikebana.

Lantern Lodge

I thought about attempting the same sort of treatment for the florist that was given for the barber, but you beat me to it, and I'm not sure I would have done the preceding justice.


Thanks for the kind words. It was a fun challenge. Thanks for making it.

And let me be clear about something. I actually agree with KAM. Master Craftsmen absolutely makes the most sense for Master armorers, weaponsmiths, alchemists, and the like.

That having been said, I'm concerned that sometimes the hobby gets a little too caught up in "realism" and logic and loses some of the fantastic. The whole "M class planet around a G class star" explanation of the gaming world, for example. A little to much Star Trek and not enough LoTR, Conan, Elric, and <insert iconic fantasy novel/movie here>. I think it's nice to keep a little of the mystery and the wonder and the mythic.

Again, thanks for the kind words. It really was a lot of fun.

P.S. Here's my counter challenge. A Master armorer or weaponsmith who has a Craft Magic Item feat OTHER than armor or weapons. :)

Edit: Oh, and to be fair, I did kinda gloss over (as in "completely ignore") some of the crunch requirements like the MW item requirement and the cost of crafting. In a campaign, those would certainly have to be addressed.

Scarab Sages

Chris Mortika wrote:
Bookkeeping is a Profession. It's like being an accountant.
Zmar wrote:
And filling your tax papers isn't magic? :D

Based on what I see from my 'customers', it often falls under Craft (Cooking the books)...


Oliver McShade wrote:

What ever happend to Magic was Magic.

I really do not see why someone needs both a Feat: Craft Magic Arms & Armor and the Craft Armor skill. As one should be used to create magic items and the other should be used to create Non-Magic items. Then having to make a SpellCraft skill check after that.... ?? why just to justify another reason for having a skill.

Misunderstanding here.

For *regular* enchanting (not with Master Craftsman), you only need the feat, and a spellcraft check. You can *alternatively* use craft (armorsmithing) instead of spellcraft, and someone using Master Crafstman must use it, but doesn't need spellcraft.

Scarab Sages

MaxAstro wrote:

I think limiting what items can be made based on the craft skill is excessive nerfing of the feat...

As mentioned above, the crafter does not have to ~make~ the item in question - only enchant it. If they have figured out a way to use cooking to turn a regular sword into a masterwork sword, more power to them.

Baste it in Awesome Sauce™

Shadow Lodge

Snorter wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:

I think limiting what items can be made based on the craft skill is excessive nerfing of the feat...

As mentioned above, the crafter does not have to ~make~ the item in question - only enchant it. If they have figured out a way to use cooking to turn a regular sword into a masterwork sword, more power to them.

Baste it in Awesome Sauce™

You see, enchanting a weapon is a lot like cooking. If you don't have the right ingredients, you won't have any magic in the blade. Take this Vorpal Sword for example. I needed something with a sharp flavor to get the supernatural edge, so I made a casserole and put the sword in it.

From: Cooking up Magic(or how to cook a Vorpal Sword)™.

Contributor

Requires a small house ruling to expand Master Craftsman beyond Craft Magic Weapons and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item, but certainly one that I'd allow....

"You are the weakest link!" declared Guildmaster Thunderhammer, throwing the shirt on the bench before Ardin. "Our guild has standards to uphold, but look at this!"

Ardin looked. It was one of his shirts, the large jumper rings in the mithral chain hammered with his personal mark as well as the mark of the crafthall. It was blackened with soot. There was also a large hole in the center, stained with blood.

"A lance?" Ardin touched the edge of the hole. It went through both sides.

"Might have well as been but no. A dragon's horn. Red, as you can tell from the scorching. About the only good thing that can be said is that they slew the beast while the poor bugger who was stuck on the horn stayed there and distracted it." The guildmaster snorted. "But our guild has standards to uphold. You link chainmail as deftly as any master in the guild, but you seem incapable of doing anything with the special polishes and burnishers we've given you other than toss them down the crapper! Where's the magic, Ardin? Where's the magic?"

Ardin looked at the mail glumly.

"Just take it apart and start over. Thankfully, even magic doesn't help much with an angry dragon, so I can claim the magic broke when the shirt did--even if we both know better!"

Ardin was left with the shirt. He set about removing the ruined links first, seeing if there were any that could be salvaged.

One larger jumper was curiously bright, somehow untouched by both soot and blood except in one spot. Ardin removed it, noting as he did that the rivet was bright red, having scraped against the dragon's horn and caught a chip, looking like a jewel in a finger ring.

Ardin had moved passed despondency and into silliness. He might as well wear his shame as a badge of honor. On impulse, he put the ring on his finger. *PUT ME IN THE FIRE* said a voice in his head.

"Who said that?" asked Ardin.

*I AM NALANTHIERON THE RED! LET ME TASTE THE FLAMES!*

Ardin suddenly found himself reaching into the forge and picking up a live coal with the hand with the ring.

It didn't burn.

Ardin began to smile and walked towards the guildmaster....


*applause*

Brilliant! And a standing ovation for making it a single scene (with dialogue) instead of exposition (like mine). Much respect.

Contributor

Glad you enjoyed. But all this said, I think our examples also underscores the original point that certain professions lend themselves more readily than others and you have to get particularly convoluted with your item crafting to justify how someone with Craft Bookbinder is making magic boots or Craft Cobbler is making magic books, or how either of these items are somehow enchanted by Profession Chessmaster.

Yes, I think we can all come up with narrative explanations on how the chessmaster is able to do it, but it's frankly inobvious. You expect that you get your magic boots at the cobbler and not from the chessmaster, the bricklayer, the potter, or the guy who makes his living snipping the testicles off goats.

I think it's reasonable to limit Master Craftsman to the obvious crafts and if you decide to make something that you wouldn't reasonably go to a certain specialty for, it's going to look like it was made by that particular specialty. Sif's golden hair was made by a dwarven goldsmith, not a wigmaker, and consequently the magic wig looked like the actual gold it was made from. Pretty? Yes. Natural looking? No.

The guy who snips testicles off goats? I do not want to see the Robe of Eyes he made, it is NSFW, and moreover, even if he's somehow disguised it, I think anyone doing Analyze Dweomer is going to have to make a Call of Cthulhu-style SAN check.

Scarab Sages

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
The guy who snips testicles off goats? I do not want to see the Robe of Eyes he made, it is NSFW, and moreover, even if he's somehow disguised it, I think anyone doing Analyze Dweomer is going to have to make a Call of Cthulhu-style SAN check.

He'd have a good, if unorthodox, line in Crystal Balls, though.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One point to keep in mind. For the fellow who has decided that he wants to take 'Profession: Mime' and craft arms and armor with it... the character will only start crafting equipment at level 7.

Lvl 5 - Master Craftsman (due to prereq of 5 skill ranks).
Lvl 7 - Craft Arms & Armor.

So you are crafting equipment 2 levels after spellcasters have already started... or 4 levels after in the case of Craft Wondrous Items.

And chances are, if someone is planning on going this route it is because you don't have a caster who is planning to take these feats in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.


I was annoyed the feat was limited to only arms, armor, and wondrous items. Why bother calling out it can't be used on spell-trigger or spell-activation items when arms, armor, and (most?) wondrous items aren't in those categories anyway?


I see this as mainly an NPC feat, this way in a story line you could be off trying to save a 15th level expert who is capable of making X magic item from the clutches of the evil king, or the evil king could be snatching all the craftsmen of the land up to fuel his magical weaponed host of dark knights and freeing the craftsmen is part of the mission (after all its really hard to imprison high level spell casters but still want them to cast spells and do magic things!)

Also it's semi amusing for a dwarven smith who is a fighter, but i think its more of a story device.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I used it for a PC of mine: wiz (diviner) only 1 level then rogue.
He was focused on surprise round and acting fast & often (let's not go into optimization, I wanted a themed PC)

I had a weapon as bonded item, and took master craftsman @ lvl 5
due to the bonded item, I could enchant my weapon starting lvl 5, without any delay.

I agree it's not optimized, but it's handy !

Vrischika


Love this feat, but use it sparingly in my campaigns. Only true masters of their crafts, or NPCs with PC Classes, get the use of it.

Made a Dwarf Cleric (12) with this who was an Armorsmith. Horribly bigoted towards Half-Orcs and Elves, and anyone with a bat familiar or pet, very old-school Torag follower. Had an intense rivalry with a Half-Orc Barbarian (7) who was a Weaponsmith a Human Expert (10) who had maximum ranks in both Armorsmith and Leather Worker, and had taken the feat twice for each Craft Skill.

Dwarf Cleric made a living selling heavy armor and shields, but hated Orcs and Elves. Had a long-running feud with an ex-adventurer who was an expert at making weapons, who had a friend who was basically very much like that Armorsmith in Dragon Age: Origins, an 'artiste' who was incredibly fussy with his work. All three also had access to that feat in the Final Dragon (or was it Dungeon?) magazine that allowed them to add little tweaks to their work, such as greater protection, more damage or bonuses due to the 'fancy' make of the armor, etc.

That said, I also used this waaaaaay back for a Halfling Expert (5) with maximum ranks in {Brewer} who also had taken Skill Focus for his Crafting Skill. Man could brew beer that would make a Dwarf forswear the stone and an Elf cut down a tree. Nut-ale that granted the ability of the Bless spell if a full tankard was drunk, mead that granted bonus hit-points or stabilizing rolls, several types of beer that granted minor (+1) bonus to the various ability scores and even a whiskey that was a powerful disinfectant, providing both a magical and alchemical bonus to heal-checks to dealing with poison and/or disease.

Basketweaver? Think Magic Bags, but as baskets and cornucopias.

Glassblower? Magic Mirror, Glass-steel weapons and armor perhaps, but only items that are a collection of large pieces, such as Breastplate, Full- and Half-Plate and weapons such as Swords and Maces, items that are fundamentally 'one piece' or close enough that the majority of the item can be made of magically reinforced Glass. Also items that can bend and distort light, but that is going to the extremes of the craft.

Cook? Think potions but in the form of food. Potion of Cure Light Wounds? Marge's famous beef jerky. Potion of Bark Skin? Wilbur's hard-boiled Cockatrice Eggs. Potion of Cure Disease? Angelfood Cake.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

HalfOrcHeavyMetal wrote:
That said, I also used this waaaaaay back for a Halfling Expert (5) with maximum ranks in {Brewer} who also had taken Skill Focus for his Crafting Skill. Man could brew beer that would make a Dwarf forswear the stone and an Elf cut down a tree. Nut-ale that granted the ability of the Bless spell if a full tankard was drunk, mead that granted bonus hit-points or stabilizing rolls, several types of beer that granted minor (+1) bonus to the various ability scores and even a whiskey that was a powerful disinfectant, providing both a magical and alchemical bonus to heal-checks to dealing with poison and/or disease.

Beer Keg of Manly Chest Hair Growing = Manual of Bodily Health ???

This beer keg contains a fine imperial stout, but entwined within the wood is a powerful magical effect. If anyone drinks this entire keg, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of 6 days, he gains an inherent bonus from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of keg) to his Constitution score. Once the keg is emptied, the magic disappears from the wood and it becomes a normal keg.

I am so doing this!


So then what about like say I am a fighter with Craft (Blacksmithing), Master Craftsman, and Craft Arms and Armor. So, I want to make a +1 Keen dagger. Would I be able to by myself (as it's not spell-trigger or spell-completion)?

I see 3 possibilities...

1. Cannot make keen dagger.
2. Must have wizard friend cast keen for me.
3. Master Craftsman feat lets me make the keen dagger without needing the spell.

So, which one is the case?

Dark Archive

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

So then what about like say I am a fighter with Craft (Blacksmithing), Master Craftsman, and Craft Arms and Armor. So, I want to make a +1 Keen dagger. Would I be able to by myself (as it's not spell-trigger or spell-completion)?

I see 3 possibilities...

1. Cannot make keen dagger.
2. Must have wizard friend cast keen for me.
3. Master Craftsman feat lets me make the keen dagger without needing the spell.

So, which one is the case?

I believe its #2


Name Violation wrote:
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

So then what about like say I am a fighter with Craft (Blacksmithing), Master Craftsman, and Craft Arms and Armor. So, I want to make a +1 Keen dagger. Would I be able to by myself (as it's not spell-trigger or spell-completion)?

I see 3 possibilities...

1. Cannot make keen dagger.
2. Must have wizard friend cast keen for me.
3. Master Craftsman feat lets me make the keen dagger without needing the spell.

So, which one is the case?

I believe its #2

Or #3 with a +5 Craft DC for ignoring the spell pre-req?


Slaunyeh wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

So then what about like say I am a fighter with Craft (Blacksmithing), Master Craftsman, and Craft Arms and Armor. So, I want to make a +1 Keen dagger. Would I be able to by myself (as it's not spell-trigger or spell-completion)?

I see 3 possibilities...

1. Cannot make keen dagger.
2. Must have wizard friend cast keen for me.
3. Master Craftsman feat lets me make the keen dagger without needing the spell.

So, which one is the case?

I believe its #2
Or #3 with a +5 Craft DC for ignoring the spell pre-req?

It is #3 with a +5 Craft DC.

Just think of it as you are such a good swordsmith that that you can do with your skill and passion what some weedy wizard can only do by casting a spell.


Gallo wrote:
Slaunyeh wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

So then what about like say I am a fighter with Craft (Blacksmithing), Master Craftsman, and Craft Arms and Armor. So, I want to make a +1 Keen dagger. Would I be able to by myself (as it's not spell-trigger or spell-completion)?

I see 3 possibilities...

1. Cannot make keen dagger.
2. Must have wizard friend cast keen for me.
3. Master Craftsman feat lets me make the keen dagger without needing the spell.

So, which one is the case?

I believe its #2
Or #3 with a +5 Craft DC for ignoring the spell pre-req?

It is #3 with a +5 Craft DC.

Just think of it as you are such a good swordsmith that that you can do with your skill and passion what some weedy wizard can only do by casting a spell.

That's awesome.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jared Ouimette wrote:

Professional Strippers need Thongs of Enhancement.

Professional Pole Dancers could make Ten Foot Poles of Slipperiness.

LOL you just inspired me to make a Thong of Enchantment for my Sacred Prostitute of Calistrae. Hehe.

As for mastercrafting, I'm willing in my game to have (NPC smiths, none of the PCs are good enough to be master crafters, or likely to want to be) master crafters use the "+5 DC for requisites not met" to produce magical effects - essentially if a player wants a +1 flaming sword, the smith would buy a fireball scroll and "apply" it in the crafting process. The smith doesn't know HOW to cast the spell, he just knows the way of "transferring" the spell (maybe the scroll is put into the hilt or the metal during the forging process).

However players would by far be best looking for a wizard/cleric smith than a master crafter expert because the end price will be cheaper, and faster. As a rule, my master crafters will normally only make simple/common things which they know they can sell easily, such as +1 armour. I do have one shop though run by an ex-adventurer couple, one of whom is a fighter and the other a wizard, and effectively he makes the armour/weapon and then she enchants it accordingly.


NekoDaimyo wrote:
Man, I could totally Profession(Bookkeeping) my way into making some +5 Tomes of Clear Thought.

Lol. The notion that a clever enough accountant could mystically doctor the numbers on his character sheet to increase his ability scores strikes me as funny and brilliant.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:

I'd allow a craft (cooking) magic item crafter to make those items which can be cooked (potions I guess).

Part of me would want to allow Craft (Cooking) to allow for certain types of books, if only for the horrible pun.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Where I can see where you are coming from, in cooking being a 'craft', Cooking already falls under Profession.


Cooking is a profession skill, rather than craft, likely because while you are indeed "creating" things, they don't last.

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