I've got a sorcerer in my campaign that just learned touch of idiocy and is looking forward to using it A LOT.
The only problem is that I've been playing D&D for about five years and for some reason this spell never got used.
Does anyone have any tips on how to run characters with reduced mental stats? I'm aware of the mechanical penalties and the particular problems for spellcasters, but I'm a little fuzzier on how to adjust an NPC's personality when their mental faculties essentially get randomly rearranged.
In addition to Snorter's good advice, I'd add turn on the TV and watch the news and/or reality TV, throw in a few soaps too.
If a creature has its mental stats dropped, that can manifest in a variety of ways. Maybe it isn't as focused as before and instead of gunning for that sorcerer because we all know arcane magic=bad day, it gets more easily distracted when the fighter runs up and hits it. In short, the creature may display a poorer sense of tactics and strategy. If driven low enough, the creature in question might become reckless as well. Decreases in Int generally mean slower to learn, slower to grasp new concepts, while Wis decreases mean less common sense, less willpower, and arguably less discipline. Less Cha means less friendly, comes on the wrong way, and less persuasive.
As a final point, look at the ability scores section of the book and see what it says about these stats to give you an idea what they really reflect. If you can find some NPCs with lower scores in the right areas, they can also give you some insight (you DO have Dungeon or Pathfinder materials around to consult, right?).
Yes I have the Pathfinder Core rules. I have a firm grasp on what the mental stats mean and how they work and I doubt I'd have any issues if the spell only affected one stat. It would be even easier if this spell was going to be limited to combat encounters and I could just have an enemy make bad calls and draw some AoO's.
But, say that my sorcerer friend in chatting up an NPC he wants information from. The NPC is reserved and naturally suspicious and isn't telling the sorcerer nearly enough. So the sorcerer tags him with a Touch of idiocy spell. Lets assume he cast the spell some time ago and has just been holding the charge so a casual touch to discharge it shouldn't require too high of a bluff check to mask from passerby.
But what about the target? His Int is now an effective 7 his Wis a 9 and his Cha is a 4. How likely is it that he could recognize a spell had been cast on him? How intelligently could he even communicate this to the people around him? Does his natural suspicion stay intact or can he not stay focused long enough to make assumptions of peoples intent?
A lot of this falls into the grey areas of how the attributes work together to make a personality, and if the personality is altered and to what degree when these are changed.
Yes I have the Pathfinder Core rules. I have a firm grasp on what the mental stats mean and how they work and I doubt I'd have any issues if the spell only affected one stat. It would be even easier if this spell was going to be limited to combat encounters and I could just have an enemy make bad calls and draw some AoO's.
But, say that my sorcerer friend in chatting up an NPC he wants information from. The NPC is reserved and naturally suspicious and isn't telling the sorcerer nearly enough. So the sorcerer tags him with a Touch of idiocy spell. Lets assume he cast the spell some time ago and has just been holding the charge so a casual touch to discharge it shouldn't require too high of a bluff check to mask from passerby.
But what about the target? His Int is now an effective 7 his Wis a 9 and his Cha is a 4. How likely is it that he could recognize a spell had been cast on him? How intelligently could he even communicate this to the people around him? Does his natural suspicion stay intact or can he not stay focused long enough to make assumptions of peoples intent?
A lot of this falls into the grey areas of how the attributes work together to make a personality, and if the personality is altered and to what degree when these are changed.
As a DM, I'd run it this way...
If the NPC was suspicious for something he'd noticed, or been told/warned about, I'd make him a little less so, and the longer the sorc talked him up after the spell, the less suspicious he'd be (as he kinda forgets why he was so suspicious, or what he was told), since those things are based on memory, recall, and observation (all three of which are based of mental stats). If he was a anturally suspicois person (even paranoids have enemies...the meen in the black suits told me so!!!!), he'd continue to be so, since that is a personality trait, and personality isn't determined by stats. Of course, with his lowered mental stats, he's much more likely to be susceptable to persuasion (Bluff, Diplomacy, ect), since his ability to resist has just been, by and large, obliterated.
My basic rule of thumb for these kinds of spells is this: Mental stats determine your capabilities, your personality determines what you do with your capabilities. I hate saying it, but if you've ever read a Drizzt book...remember back when he was underdark, still a kid....he had the potential to be a swordsman, or a spellcaster...which is a raw stats issue...he ended up being a swordsman...because thats what he wanted...
It means that you'll stick your head in the microwave to get yourself a tan.
Problem is with a Charisma of 4 the target is more likely to retreat within himself and actually be less forthcoming, not because of guardedness or guile, but rather shyness. And his information would now be less reliable because of misremeberes information or a loss of the graps of a plan's intricacies.
It's actually a really bad idea to use as an interrogation spell. Rather counterproductive.
Director of Game Development
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It means that you'll stick your head in the microwave to get yourself a tan.You may even be prone to squeezing the Charmin when Mr.Wimple's not around.
Thank you both. It was the first thing I thought when I saw the thread title, as well.
There's also the fun that this sorcerer is going to try to hold the charge on a spell in a social situation where the duration of the effect is 10 min/level. I hope no one bumps into this guy, it could get ugly even if it's just the waiter with a tray of drinks . . .
Also, not every society has the same traditions and taboos. I hope the sorcerer doesn't try this on the local shaman in a culture where there's no contact allowed with the clergy!
Anyway, the sorcerer may find that people are more talkative (effect possibly of low Wisdom), less talkative (lower Charisma), less focused (Int), wander off topic (combination). If he really wants to get information, he'd do better to get ranks in social skills and then use eagle's splendor. As it is, he's trying the arcane version of getting a person drunk in the hopes that they'll talk to him and tell him what he wants. That works sometimes, but not always. This is also assuming a person doesn't realize they're suddenly slower on the uptake and otherwise not functioning at full mental capacity. Given the sudden onset of the malady, it wouldn't be a big leap to conclude that the sorcerer did something to them and then react accordingly.
In addition to Snorter's good advice, I'd add turn on the TV and watch the news and/or reality TV, throw in a few soaps too.
Lathiira, he's looking for how others act when affected by idiocy, not how to turn yourself into an idiot! :-)
It means that you'll stick your head in the microwave to get yourself a tan.
Liking the Weird Al reference, Frogboy...
In addition to Snorter's good advice, I'd add turn on the TV and watch the news and/or reality TV, throw in a few soaps too.Lathiira, he's looking for how others act when affected by idiocy, not how to turn yourself into an idiot! :-)
I didn't say you had to watch it for long! Besides, it's for research: he can make a few Will saves, right?;)
I appreciate that some might see this thread as a quick and easy way to throw in some digs and insults at people they politically disagree with. However doing so will earn you some deletions and perhaps a time out. I've removed one post already. Consider that a warning.
I appreciate that some might see this thread as a quick and easy way to throw in some digs and insults at people they politically disagree with. However doing so will earn you some deletions and perhaps a time out. I've removed one post already. Consider that a warning.
I greatly underestimated these boards' tolerance for goofing around. I'll alter my modus apparandi to not include things which I think might fall under an off-color tone, though my filter is not so good.
I appreciate that some might see this thread as a quick and easy way to throw in some digs and insults at people they politically disagree with.
That would be too easy.
I go for the difficult targets. They earn more points.
But as for the original advise: Read everything you can get about Taldor. A country founded and run by people under the influence of a persistent, intensified touch of idiocy. All citicens are under this curse.
One day a man came up with the cure for this curse, but there was a condition: If you were cured, you would have to leave the country.
The people who accepted the cure left to create the country called "Cheliax".
shtuff
U no insalt me! ME NO STOOPID!
Thank you both. It was the first thing I thought when I saw the thread title, as well.It means that you'll stick your head in the microwave to get yourself a tan.You may even be prone to squeezing the Charmin when Mr.Wimple's not around.
I think I just dated myself. Oh, well. On to "I Wanna New Duck". Quack, quack, quack...quack, quack-qua-quack.
ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) and FAS (Fetal alchol Syndrome) are both good examples of this.
Stephen E
As one who suffers from ADD I'm kinda curious why you say it reflects on low wisdom.
In my case at least, I've learned over time how to focus on tasks and improved my concentration. But in situations where there is ALLOT going on or there is allot of input into my brain I have a hard time grasping it all. Even more so when I'm overly tired. (I.E - Multiple people talking at me or near me in a loud environment)
However... I've very good at thinking "outside the box" and have a fair dose of common sense.
ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) and FAS (Fetal alchol Syndrome) are both good examples of this.
Stephen E
As one who suffers from ADD I'm kinda curious why you say it reflects on low wisdom.
In my case at least, I've learned over time how to focus on tasks and improved my concentration. But in situations where there is ALLOT going on or there is allot of input into my brain I have a hard time grasping it all. Even more so when I'm overly tired. (I.E - Multiple people talking at me or near me in a loud environment)
However... I've very good at thinking "outside the box" and have a fair dose of common sense.
I take it as "low wisdom might have an effect as if someone has ADD", not that folks with ADD have a low wisdom. I can see where he is coming from - folks with ADD might seem as being not as sharp as others, taking into account that they have a hard time getting things done efficently. I should know. I am not diagnosed with ADD or anything, but focusing on any task for a long time is quite hard for me, and focusing on anything while there is a lot of distraction is nigh-impossible for me - it is sufficient that the TV is running and my wife already has a hard time keeping my attention focused on her. And big parties? I hate them, can´t focus on small talk, get distracted by anything and everything, can´t filter the background noise of others talking. I can easily see why this behaviour can people lead to believe I´m inattentive (if they are benign) or dense (if they are not). Add that I´m awkward and easliy hushed in social situations, and I won´t come across as particularly bright or charming. The 12 Cha I put in my profile are quite flattering, they come from one of the online progs where you can determine your D&D game stats.
So, I wouldn´t take this as being meant to be offensive.
Stefan
I would recommend reading "Flowers for Algernon," by Daniel Keyes. Particularly if you were a PC trying to role-play the effects of lowering ability scores. Of course, I would recommend "Flowers for Algernon" for just about any reason, but that's just me.
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I would recommend reading "Flowers for Algernon," by Daniel Keyes. Particularly if you were a PC trying to role-play the effects of lowering ability scores. Of course, I would recommend "Flowers for Algernon" for just about any reason, but that's just me.
Ooh, seconded.
And it shows the effects of artificially raising mental stats, in the first half of the book, which makes the deterioration in the second half more poignant, since he realises what he's losing.
If you correlate intelligence with ability to learn and ability to draw conclusions, and you correlate wisdom with ability to retain information, recall information, and to gain insight based on previous experiences, you'll note that much of the effects are the same, if for different reasons.
A no-intelligence creature with wisdom cannot draw his own conclusions, but is capable of doing many things if he's done them before, or eventually figured them out, or is assisted, he can "go through the motions." His charisma modifier will dictate how well he can generally get others to assist him, and his general mood.
A no-wisdom creature with intelligence is essentially someone who seems capable as normal, but suffers lots of forgetfulness, amnesia, and will basically be forced to relearn every task he's come across, each time he does it. His charisma will likely effect if he's bothered by this fact, or if he enjoys the challenge, thus will dictate, again, whether or not people will want to help him.
A no-charisma creature will essentially take any means possible to get people to prevent communication. Shyness, belligerence, running away, showing off your booger collection you keep in your pocket, etc.
I've got a sorcerer in my campaign that just learned touch of idiocy and is looking forward to using it A LOT.
The only problem is that I've been playing D&D for about five years and for some reason this spell never got used.
Does anyone have any tips ...
Ban the spell, much simpler :)
ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) and FAS (Fetal alchol Syndrome) are both good examples of this.
Stephen E
As one who suffers from ADD I'm kinda curious why you say it reflects on low wisdom.
In my case at least, I've learned over time how to focus on tasks and improved my concentration. But in situations where there is ALLOT going on or there is allot of input into my brain I have a hard time grasping it all. Even more so when I'm overly tired. (I.E - Multiple people talking at me or near me in a loud environment)
However... I've very good at thinking "outside the box" and have a fair dose of common sense.
As Strphil<sp> correctly theorised I was referring to how ADD affects people creating similiar effects to low wisdom. My observation of a Sister and Nephew with ADD is that it commonly causes behaviour that IMO mimics "unwise" behaviour. FAS even more so. In a way I think of it like the Tiefling beastiery character. Has Cha -2 except as a Sorceror. They aren't really -2 Cha, but in many situations they function as -2 Cha.
I suspect that some forms of Autistim could be represented as a -2 (or greater) to Cha or Int, not because they're incapable of social interaction or actually stupid, but because they are missing a lot of intinctive social interaction software that most people come with and have to work it out from scratch. As a Wizard or Sorceror they have their full stat, but for functioning with people the ability bonus to their skill ranks are lower.
Stephen
I guess my own experiences are different than what your observations tell you. Either that or my case is just different/milder than that of your sister and nephew. (could be ADD vs ADHD - H= Hyperactivity)
Autism is another very interesting case. I can see where most autistic people might be said to be a good model for low Charisma because of the often poorly developed social skill-set. They might also seem to be a good model for low Wisdom as well from a outside perspective. From what I know about autistics (what very little that is) is that they are often incredibly intelligent. Its just that that intelligence is focused inwards to a extreme or otherwise extremely focused on what does have their attention.
As I've seen INT vs. WIS shown elsewhere, Intelligence tells you its raining and Wisdom tells you to get out of the rain.
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I guess my own experiences are different than what your observations tell you. Either that or my case is just different/milder than that of your sister and nephew. (could be ADD vs ADHD - H= Hyperactivity)
Autism is another very interesting case. I can see where most autistic people might be said to be a good model for low Charisma because of the often poorly developed social skill-set. They might also seem to be a good model for...
Don't forget that officially its ALL ADHD now. Its just type one for the milder version, and type 2 for the other.
And as a guy with type 2, let me tell you, it SUCKS.
As for how they would act, I would say some people are comparing wisdom and intelligence. Intelligence is book smarts, the epitome of a nerd's talents. It is the sum of all the facts you knwo that allow you to answer yes or no questions to determine what the situation is.
Wisdom, is more common sense. Its the way of determining what is a good or bad idea. Its looking at the whole picture and noticing the minute details that in turn allow you to make a better decision. Its the knowledge of right and wrong.
Charisma is your force of personality. It is how a character presents himself and their presence in a situation.
If you lack intelligence, you lack information that you could give.
If you lack wisdom, you lack the ability to judge situations and how to act within them.
If you lack Charisma you lack the ability to assert yourselves in ordinary conversation. You'll be shy possibly (though in this case its more shaken. If you've ever had a conversation with an intense person, that would be what you're experiencing. Now imagine you don't have the ability to deflect that intensity.)