The knowledge skills also cover a fairly wide area of knowledge, and it should take a while before you get around to learning all the simple questions in a field. A second level character is still at the beginning of his career.
"What is the basic effect of a Chill Touch spell" is probably a DC 10 Knowledge(Arcana) check. I find it perfectly reasonable that a second level wizard, specializing in enchantment with necromancy as an opposition school, might not know that. (It's more shocking that a second level necromancer would have the same chance of not knowing.)
The knowledge skills also cover a fairly wide area of knowledge, and it should take a while before you get around to learning all the simple questions in a field. A second level character is still at the beginning of his career.
"What is the basic effect of a Chill Touch spell" is probably a DC 10 Knowledge(Arcana) check. I find it perfectly reasonable that a second level wizard, specializing in enchantment with necromancy as an opposition school, might not know that. (It's more shocking that a second level necromancer would have the same chance of not knowing.)
See, I'd rate that as a DC 15 + spell level question, are at the least a DC 11 + spell level (11 in order to cover 0-level spells). If it's a DC 10 question, that means even an untrained person can as often as not answer it on average. For the Specialist, I'd grant a +2 for spells in his school and a -2 for prohibited school spells.
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Wow, I am amazed at how long this thread has turned out. Thanks everyone for your opinions. There are very good arguments on both sides. My group is split in the middle pretty much the same as the thread. Our DM has decided to only allow Bards the take 10 knowledge checks. He said that most of the examples of " who is the ruler of this country, and where can i find the market" he considers to be "common knowledge" that should not require a check on the part of locals. He thinks it is all in how you define "common knowledge" and what you require a knowledge check for. I'm not sure what way to to go on it, but the decision has been made for me. One last thing. For those that do allow any character to take 10 on knowledge checks, how would you rule the Loremaster ability works? Thanks again everyone. I've really enjoyed this thread.
One last thing. For those that do allow any character to take 10 on knowledge checks, how would you rule the Loremaster ability works? Thanks again everyone. I've really enjoyed this thread.
Yep, interesting conversation...
I haven't altered my position from the first post--Bards are special in that they can take 10 any time, regardless of distraction or danger. Thus they are the only characters that can take 10 on Knowledge checks in the heat of battle, thus identifying monster abilities with more certainty.
... but in the context of, say, a Pathfinder Society, game a GM cannot prevent a player from taking 10 on a Knowledge check.Is this really the way society games are played? The GM "cannot" do something? Hmmmn?
Pathfinder Society games are expected to be run using the core rules for PRPG as far as I know. Since the core rules allow a character to take 10 on Knowledge checks, I would expect a PFS GM to allow such. Now, with that said I haven't followed the PFS guideline evolution closely over the last year, so perhaps it does allow for house rules. That would, however, be very surprising to me as an organized play environment generally requires more standardization.
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Pathfinder Society games are expected to be run using the core rules for PRPG as far as I know. Since the core rules allow a character to take 10 on Knowledge checks, I would expect a PFS GM to allow such. Now, with that said I haven't followed the PFS guideline evolution closely over the last year, so perhaps it does allow for house rules. That would, however, be very surprising to me as an organized play environment generally requires more standardization.... but in the context of, say, a Pathfinder Society, game a GM cannot prevent a player from taking 10 on a Knowledge check.Is this really the way society games are played? The GM "cannot" do something? Hmmmn?
You are correct, it doesn't allow house rules. Interpretations of rules however can differ. One DM could argue (not saying that I am here) that the intent of the rule was to not allow Knowledge checks and shows the Bard ability as proof. That being said, I agree that rules as written skew this issue more towards your interpretation (Can take 10 on knowledge checks regardless outside of combat), personally as a DM I don't see that in a house game. Whether it would apply in PFS or not could actually be in question.
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I guess I've just always wondered why the gaming community historically plays the game differently when out in public. *I know I'll catch hell for that comment, but while I realize the historical need for regulation and uniformity, it just always struck me as a little disingenuous that's all.*
Maybe that's not the case.
DC Type of Knowledge
5 Widely known to all but a few.
10 Common, known by at least a substantial minority of the local population.
15 Uncommon – not generally public knowledge, but can be found easily with a little searching.
25 Rare - known by only a few people, but can be found with some work.
35 Obscure, known by few, hard to come by – known mostly to learned scholars or knowledge buffs.
45 Extremely obscure, known by very few, probably forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge.
The above is from a document I found on the WWW but now can't find the link.
If people want I can email the word document. It is really quite good, covers all knowledge skills, with examples, etc.
I allow PCs to Take 20 if using a big library like in Greyhawk City
I guess I've just always wondered why the gaming community historically plays the game differently when out in public. *I know I'll catch hell for that comment, but while I realize the historical need for regulation and uniformity, it just always struck me as a little disingenuous that's all.*
Maybe that's not the case.
I don't think it's a public vs. private thing so much as the necessity of regulated play. Any organized play event has to have some sort of standardization in order to keep things "fair" in the eyes of the players. We can play any way we want at home. For instance, I heavily modify hit points, only use Con damage/drain to reflect real physical damage, and allow players to use hit points to power class abilities/spells. All house rules that, in my opinion (and in my games, not everyone else's) make the game better. I'd never use any of these in organized play because too many people expect a specific baseline of game mechanics in order to play. It would create too much chaos if I used my house rules, much less if every GM used his or her house rules. The same applies to any variant interpretation of game mechanics, such as this situation with taking 10 on Knowledge checks. PFS, of course, does other things to standardize play, such as limiting source books, changing the XP and wealth systems, etc. that have this same goal of presenting a simplified/unified system for all participants.
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I have decided to play dirty and cheat a bit, allowing a sort of "virtual double check".
By this I mean that I consider my characters to continually take 10 on every question they encounter by default. I really cannot stand when DMs ask for the cleric character to roll Knowledge (Religion) to understand that the three eyed chakal is the holy symbol of Lamashtu (or the closed black fist is the symbol of Bane, in FR). My old DM in AD&D asked me to roll Etiquette every time my cavalier PC was greeting a noble or a king, basically risking every time to offend the ruler and being swept in jail. Those in my opinion are such simple, routine tasks that every cleric character should know without checking. You don't ask your fighter to check if they understand that bladed weapon the dwarf is wielding is a battle axe. Olympic weightlifters don't make strength checks to clean and jerk, or they would regularly fail 5% of the times even when they're training. I train for powerlifting 5 times a week, and I can assure I do NOT fail my lifts 5% of the times (although critical fumbles are - sigh - an occurrence sometimes).
Therefore my ruling is that PCs automatically know, out of combat, every kind of information that has a DC of 10 + skill bonus or less.
The aspiring pathfinder rogue in my group has +8 bonus on Knowledge (History) checks. I am ruling she automatically knows every bit of knowledge in his fields of study (I ruled that she described her general studies before beginning to play) that have DC 18 or less.
If she faces a very difficult question (DC 19+), I make her roll.
This is basically discordant vs the RAW rules, as the rogue implicitly rolls TWICE, once taking 10, once rolling. This gives her a sensible advantage, but rarely I have seen a game that suffers from giving players some extra help. Playing strictly by the rules, the Knowledge skill system just seems a bit awkward.