I've personally found the backlash against drizzt clones to be far more troublesome than drizzt clones themselves.
Amen.
Doesn't matter if the drow is anything like drizzt or not, it's always a "Drizzt Clone."If someone wants to play a Chaotic Good drow who dual-weilds scimitars, then I am going to call it a Drizzt clone no matter how much they deny it.
Because that's what it is.
If they instead wanted to play, say, a Lawful Evil drow, or a drow wizard, or basically a drow that isn't a Drizzt clone, then we would have no problems. Hypothetically.
What about a Chaotic Good Drow Rogue that weilds a short sword and shortbow? Or a Chaotic Good Drow Cleric of Elistraee? Or a Chaotic Good Drow Sorcerer with a draconic bloodline?
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I liked the notion that certain races (which, in my mind, were descended from fey and originally came from a seelie or unseelie place, including elves (seelie) and goblinoids (unseelie)) were inherently mutable. An elf who lived in the arctic would become pale, more resistant to cold and not nearly as nimble. One who lived in the darkest depths of the jungle would become darker of skin (skin tone matching surrounding lighting conditions, so mountain dwelling grey elves are pale, while subterranean drow are dark). Same for goblins, with even more wildly different appearances, so that a dozen goblins in a raiding party might not be recognizable as the same species, let alone related through inbreeding...
Other races, like dwarves, would be immutable and never adapt or interbreed with others. A dwarf is a dwarf is a dwarf. Why would he need to be anything else? If the conditions are hostile, the dwarf will use tools to adapt his environment, and beat it into submission, he won't go all soft and adapt *himself* like some namby-pamby elf. Stone and steel can be melted and broken and shaped and reshaped anew. A dwarf is made of harder stuff than that. No dwarven subraces need apply, and even duergar had the same base stats (but were likely to blow a feat now and then to get some unusual talents).
Honestly, that makes me want to play a Chaotic Good drow who duel-wields scimitars in homage to drizzt, but who is actually nothing like him (fr'ince, a schmoozing, fast-talking drow bard). But I guess I'm just stubborn like that. :)
Part of me wants to say "there is more to a character than race, weapon and alignment", but the fact is if they're duel-wielding scimitars then they were almost certainly "inspired" by the lonesome black-clad ranger.
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Actually, on a serious note, I have always liked the idea of "human sub-races." It really brings out the personality of the various ethnic and cultural groups. For example: Chardians are a hardy and outgoing people, but their habit of ignoring things that would rather not know makes them slow on the uptake. They get +2 Con, +2 Cha, and -2 Wis. On the other and Ventarians are quick and observant, but standoffish. They get +2 Dex, +2 Wis, and -2 Cha. It actually gives a little depth to the game and makes humans just as different from each other as they are from elves and dwarves.
Nature did too. Hence Neanderthals, and possibly flores man.
I liked the notion that certain races (which, in my mind, were descended from fey and originally came from a seelie or unseelie place, including elves (seelie) and goblinoids (unseelie)) were inherently mutable. An elf who lived in the arctic would become pale, more resistant to cold and not nearly as nimble. One who lived in the darkest depths of the jungle would become darker of skin (skin tone matching surrounding lighting conditions, so mountain dwelling grey elves are pale, while subterranean drow are dark). Same for goblins, with even more wildly different appearances, so that a dozen goblins in a raiding party might not be recognizable as the same species, let alone related through inbreeding...
Other races, like dwarves, would be immutable and never adapt or interbreed with others. A dwarf is a dwarf is a dwarf. Why would he need to be anything else? If the conditions are hostile, the dwarf will use tools to adapt his environment, and beat it into submission, he won't go all soft and adapt *himself* like some namby-pamby elf. Stone and steel can be melted and broken and shaped and reshaped anew. A dwarf is made of harder stuff than that. No dwarven subraces need apply, and even duergar had the same base stats (but were likely to blow a feat now and then to get some unusual talents).
That's the game I'm probably going to run next month.
Right down to goblins being bad-fey and elves being good-fey (though I'm casting gobliniods, trolls and kobolds more as "fey outcasts" who grew ugly and mean after being kicked out of the fey court, rather than adopting the seelie/unseelie dichotomy).
I am using two elven subraces- wood elves and iron elves- but they aren't genetic. Most elves are wood elves. Elves abandoned the ruins of their disastrous magical empire ages ago and swore an oath never to return, and those who break that oath become "iron elves", losing their connection to the forest and gaining an addiction to magic.
Similar things can happen with other fey races. Gnomes who become too reclusive and obsessive can become brownies, while those who grow too bold and violent might turn into redcaps.
A Drizzt clone is a Drizzt clone regardless of how much backstory you write for it to pretend otherwise.
A Drizzt clone is a Drizzt clone regardless of how much backstory you write for it to pretend otherwise.
Okay, apparently there isn't more to a character than race, weapon and alignment.
My mistake.
I still like sea elves
Hypothetically, if someone were to create a drow ranger called "Tzzird", who had a panther as an animal companion, and went for two-weapon style with scimitars, then no amount of backstory could make it anything other than a Drizzt clone.
The more mechanically different from Drizzt, the less roleplaying is required to distance the character sufficiently.
The half sea-elf in Races of Faerun really captured my imagination. I may have to remake my old half sea-elf cleric of Isis as an Oracle one day.
Everytime I try to get out!
Okay few more musings about sub-races. I like the notion of Elf sub-races because of their fey nature.
Dwarves to my thinking create subraces based on clanship as well area/location.
Again I do like sub-races if for no other reason as that your elf or hobgoblin are not my elf or hobgoblin.
After reading all the post I'm starting to think a lot of the anti-subrace feeling comes from the basic formula of DND, go out meet new cultures and races and kill them as fast as you can because they are differnt so must be monsters, then raid their treasures. If I play a Drizzt clone, or any given race at all, well after wiping out entire races and cultures save your fellow player character well it just leads to questioning self and examing your place in the universe and who and what we 'heros' really are. Who wants that?
TTFN DRE
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I still like sea elves
Love sea elves. Unfortunately, they have the 'decker' problem (from Shadowrun) in that their unique abilities are best used when seperated from the party. (Since, generally, the rest of their party won't be able to breathe underwater, etc. leaving the sea elf player going off by himself while the other three players stand around holding their cheese, or, worse yet, turning on the television...)
Races (or classes) that work better on their own (like stealth-focused rogues, who are punished by hanging around their clumsy, noisy comrades, and denied the use of a class role without actually abandoning the party...) aren't always the best thing for a team-oriented game, with encounters balanced for a four-man group. That sea elf off exploring, or that rogue who has snuck into the enemy base, is going to be well and truly screwed if they run into something that's an appropriate challenge for the party.
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All I ask for is human subraces. Where are my jungle humans, my ice humans, my lava humans?!?!? Or maybe we could have different stats for humans of different ethnicities! If an elf who likes to study can be a different species, why can't the Asian analogue humans be a different species?
Oh right. Because it's a dumb and generally offensive idea. I suppose translating it to non-human races makes it less offensive, but I'm not sure about the dumbness.
Count me in as a hater of subraces with different stats/abilities, particularly those based on environmental/elemental themes (and, a happy camper that Paizo will treat subraces as different cultures/ethnicities with the same base stats instead). If I never see another frost elf or hill dwarf or kabuto gnome, I will be happy.
The tiefling thing is irrelevant. Tiefling is a grab bag category of humans descended from extra planar creatures, which are themselves a grab bag of various monsters with different abilities and appearances. It's not as if they are a consistent race to start with, nor is it the case that they are different based on the environment they inhabit or the culture they come from. Once Pathfinder comes out with the ice tiefling, then I will be annoyed. But the betentacled tiefling descended from Cthulhu? Sign me up.
To you, Sebastian, the OP and to everyone else who have stated a similar opinion.... I agree.
Grey elves, high elves, wood elves, wild elves, hill dwarves, mountain dwarves, etc. aren't bad if they get treated the same as human ethnicities (same stats as the base race, cosmetic physiological differences, different cultures, different languages/dialects, etc.).
Sure, I can see certain subraces getting special treatment (like drow) to reflect divine and/or magical intervention/interference. However, these should be extreme and rare cases.
One thing I will agree with is the idea that non-humanoids SHOULD have varied ethnicities that don't have different stats, even if you are using subraces as well.
To go back to Tolkien, Telari and Noldor elves were almost certainly different races, as were Telari and Moroquendi ("dark elves" who never went to Valenor, even though they were Telari-descended). Granted, Tolkien never exactly wrote D&D stats for his creations, but he states in detail that exposure to the light of Valenor fundamentally and permanently changes all those who go there.
However, even among the elves who stayed behind, we still have a wide range of cultures: the patient shipwrights of the West, the incredibly timid and elusive "wild elves" of the East (or was it South?), and finally the proud and cultured "Sindar" of Doriath (whose descendants Bilbo & Co. paid a visit to).
These were very different peoples, but there is no reason at all to give them different game stats. They're all Moroquendi (elves that didn't go to Valenor). And that doesn't mean they all share the same culture.
In D&D fiction, I think there's a tendency to use sub-races instead of different cultures or ethnic groups, which I agree can lead to shoddy worldbuilding.
However, whenever someone tries to play a renegade drow, the rest of the group screams "DRIZZT!".Maybe because the player in our group named her character "Grazzt" then right after the complaints about LA (which the GM waived) she asked "What do you mean I have to take a -4 attack penalty on all my dual scimitar attack rolls?!?"
Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in other groups.
Very true, very true. It would be pretty silly of me to say that no one ever tries to build drizzt. =)
However, in my experience, you can't play a chaotic good drow without people rolling their eyes. Drizzt cast a HUGE shadow on the game, and I've personally found the backlash against drizzt clones to be far more troublesome than drizzt clones themselves.
I played a half-drow favored soul of Eliestree. I used a big bastard sword, armor and a shield (exotic weapon to use it one handed). I never once took a level of Ranger, never once dual wielded. Honestly, I've never even read a Drizzt novel. I just liked the idea of a half-drow raised by his Drow mother on the surface. She was an exile of a royal house that was destroyed. She wasn't royalty herself, just a loyal retainer who feared for her life, so she fled to the surface. She ended up being a priestess of Eliestree.
It was a really fun character.
I still like sea elvesLove sea elves. Unfortunately, they have the 'decker' problem (from Shadowrun) in that their unique abilities are best used when seperated from the party. (Since, generally, the rest of their party won't be able to breathe underwater, etc. leaving the sea elf player going off by himself while the other three players stand around holding their cheese, or, worse yet, turning on the television...)
Races (or classes) that work better on their own (like stealth-focused rogues, who are punished by hanging around their clumsy, noisy comrades, and denied the use of a class role without actually abandoning the party...) aren't always the best thing for a team-oriented game, with encounters balanced for a four-man group. That sea elf off exploring, or that rogue who has snuck into the enemy base, is going to be well and truly screwed if they run into something that's an appropriate challenge for the party.
Just chiming in to say ' I like Sea-Elves too! ' but found whatever advantages they had quickly become drowned in a party of adventurers.
Ah well ... wonder if there was anything that could make their racial advantage be of more use to the party (in/out) of combat. Kinda like the PF ranger. eg: allows the party +2 swim checks ... etc ... <-- not a great example :p
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In D&D fiction, I think there's a tendency to use sub-races instead of different cultures or ethnic groups, which I agree can lead to shoddy worldbuilding.
QFT. This is not only true for fiction, but for game backgrounds as well IMO. What is the point of dwelling on (mostly minor) game stat differences when the same space could be used to elaborate on the cultural details that can be used for better roleplaying? Mind you, more fluff does not automatically make anybody a better roleplayer, but the chance is there. With game stats, not so much.
Stefan
However, whenever someone tries to play a renegade drow, the rest of the group screams "DRIZZT!".Maybe because the player in our group named her character "Grazzt" then right after the complaints about LA (which the GM waived) she asked "What do you mean I have to take a -4 attack penalty on all my dual scimitar attack rolls?!?"
Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen in other groups.
Very true, very true. It would be pretty silly of me to say that no one ever tries to build drizzt. =)
However, in my experience, you can't play a chaotic good drow without people rolling their eyes. Drizzt cast a HUGE shadow on the game, and I've personally found the backlash against drizzt clones to be far more troublesome than drizzt clones themselves.
Yeah I could see that being an issue. I just don't normally allow people to play drow period... or if they do I make sure that I inform them that they'll be suffering the social stigma of being a member of a race renowned for cruelty, sadism, and murder. There were actually quite a few decent drow characters in the realms to look to for inspiration, but when a stat block is as nice as the drow one is (again, don't even get me started on the 2nd ed drow. ridiculous.) it's hard to gauge the players real interest in being a drow. Normally if I allow it, the PC gets the standard elf suite and suffers the social stigmas I id'd earlier.
It just wasn't a race that was designed to be available to PC's, and I prefer not to allow it.
Hypothetically, if someone were to create a drow ranger called "Tzzird", who had a panther as an animal companion, and went for two-weapon style with scimitars, then no amount of backstory could make it anything other than a Drizzt clone.Now I'll agree with you that that is an obvious Driz'zt clone.
And I agree that creating a Driz'zt clone that obvious can be a bit annoying. On the other hand, I do have the equally annoying intention of one day playing the Anti-Driz'zt:
** spoiler omitted **...
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAH! The anti drizzt just about killed me.
You know, looking at it there's still one sub race I'm going to miss... I've always really enjoyed the Grugach / wild elves.
Was the index of the Pathfinder Bestiary unveiled ?
Because there is a possibility that some common subraces like those of elves (sylvan, drow) or dwarves (duergar) will be inside...
Drow should powerful and feared and 100% NPC! When you PC them you make them weaker monsters or too powerful PC's.
All I ask for is human subraces. Where are my jungle humans, my ice humans, my lava humans?!?!? Or maybe we could have different stats for humans of different ethnicities! If an elf who likes to study can be a different species, why can't the Asian analogue humans be a different species?
Oh right. Because it's a dumb and generally offensive idea. I suppose translating it to non-human races makes it less offensive, but I'm not sure about the dumbness.
Count me in as a hater of subraces with different stats/abilities, particularly those based on environmental/elemental themes (and, a happy camper that Paizo will treat subraces as different cultures/ethnicities with the same base stats instead). If I never see another frost elf or hill dwarf or kabuto gnome, I will be happy.
The tiefling thing is irrelevant. Tiefling is a grab bag category of humans descended from extra planar creatures, which are themselves a grab bag of various monsters with different abilities and appearances. It's not as if they are a consistent race to start with, nor is it the case that they are different based on the environment they inhabit or the culture they come from. Once Pathfinder comes out with the ice tiefling, then I will be annoyed. But the betentacled tiefling descended from Cthulhu? Sign me up.
To you, Sebastian, the OP and to everyone else who have stated a similar opinion.... I agree.
Grey elves, high elves, wood elves, wild elves, hill dwarves, mountain dwarves, etc. aren't bad if they get treated the same as human ethnicities (same stats as the base race, cosmetic physiological differences, different cultures, different languages/dialects, etc.).
Sure, I can see certain subraces getting special treatment (like drow) to reflect divine and/or magical intervention/interference. However, these should be extreme and rare cases.
My idea of the antidrizzt character was a flamboyant male Bard who is obsessed with fashion and secretly wants to make enough gold adventuring to open up a hair salon and spa. Not a small shop on the street, but a huge decked out place made of marble with bath houses and master level masseuses (can't spell those words).
My idea of the antidrizzt character was a flamboyant male Bard who is obsessed with fashion and secretly wants to...All I ask for is human subraces. Where are my jungle humans, my ice humans, my lava humans?!?!? Or maybe we could have different stats for humans of different ethnicities! If an elf who likes to study can be a different species, why can't the Asian analogue humans be a different species?
Oh right. Because it's a dumb and generally offensive idea. I suppose translating it to non-human races makes it less offensive, but I'm not sure about the dumbness.
Count me in as a hater of subraces with different stats/abilities, particularly those based on environmental/elemental themes (and, a happy camper that Paizo will treat subraces as different cultures/ethnicities with the same base stats instead). If I never see another frost elf or hill dwarf or kabuto gnome, I will be happy.
The tiefling thing is irrelevant. Tiefling is a grab bag category of humans descended from extra planar creatures, which are themselves a grab bag of various monsters with different abilities and appearances. It's not as if they are a consistent race to start with, nor is it the case that they are different based on the environment they inhabit or the culture they come from. Once Pathfinder comes out with the ice tiefling, then I will be annoyed. But the betentacled tiefling descended from Cthulhu? Sign me up.
To you, Sebastian, the OP and to everyone else who have stated a similar opinion.... I agree.
Grey elves, high elves, wood elves, wild elves, hill dwarves, mountain dwarves, etc. aren't bad if they get treated the same as human ethnicities (same stats as the base race, cosmetic physiological differences, different cultures, different languages/dialects, etc.).
Sure, I can see certain subraces getting special treatment (like drow) to reflect divine and/or magical intervention/interference. However, these should be extreme and rare cases.
... pet poodle :D ?
That's animal companion poodle, mister.
Conjured by way of a figurine of FABULOUS power.
Golarion. It's not your father's Forgotten Realms.
Nice.
Myself I love sub races.
Why do elves all have to be nature loving magic users.
Why are all dwarves rock bound anti social drunks.
Ok this is a bit of an over statement but still elves by there very nature should have sub races there intune with nature.
Why are the elves of a temperate forest the same as elves of a lush jungle rainforest?
I love the idea of races actually mattering.
Sub-races go more to that idea instead of being a one page after thought.
But if you don't want sub races you don't have to have them.
That's animal companion poodle, mister.
Conjured by way of a figurine of FABULOUS power.
Sorry, ... was thinking of Bag of Queer Tricks ... my bad :D
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I see a lot of people missing the chartuese halfing, the thing I miss the most is the port-o-potty elf.
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My idea of the antidrizzt character was a flamboyant male Bard who is obsessed with fashion and secretly wants to make enough gold adventuring to open up a hair salon and spa. Not a small shop on the street, but a huge decked out place made of marble with bath houses and master level masseuses (can't spell those words).
You don't mess with the Zztohan?
I'm not sure if the subraces were in the 1e phb, but if subraces weren't there, they were in the Dragonlance core book for 1e, so it predates 2e.It all started back in 2e with the tallfellow, stout and hairfoot halflings methinks...or was it 1e?
They were in the 1e Monster Manual. The different subraces basicly mimiced the "subraces" of Middle Earth.
If someone wants to play a Chaotic Good drow who dual-weilds scimitars, then I am going to call it a Drizzt clone no matter how much they deny it.Because that's what it is.
Not close enough. Without the whole remorse and introspection, the troubled past (in other words: the whole emo part), as well as the magical panther animal companion, not to mention the "hunter mode", it's still not a clone.
I might be generous and say that you can call it a clone and not abuse the word too much.
But people cry wolf, uh, I mean Clone, as soon as it's a drow. Often, they don't even have the CG alignement (or anything that isn't typical for a drow).
Other races, like dwarves, would be immutable and never adapt or interbreed with others. A dwarf is a dwarf is a dwarf.
That would explain why a lot of people (99% of those I've seen play a dwarf) are incapable of going even one millimetre off the Road Of Playing A Dwarf As It Is Supposed To be...
A Drizzt clone is a Drizzt clone regardless of how much backstory you write for it to pretend otherwise.Okay, apparently there isn't more to a character than race, weapon and alignment.
My mistake.
Yeah. That and attack power.
Hypothetically, if someone were to create a drow ranger called "Tzzird", who had a panther as an animal companion, and went for two-weapon style with scimitars, then no amount of backstory could make it anything other than a Drizzt clone.
No, the definition of "clone" would make it everything but a Drizzt clone.
the social stigma of being a member of a race renowned for cruelty, sadism, and murder.
Why would something like that have a social stigma?
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Why would something like that have a social stigma?
the social stigma of being a member of a race renowned for cruelty, sadism, and murder.
In a game where the only way to advance in power and ability is to bust into people's homes, kill them and take their stuff? That sort of 'social stigma' would probably be a selling point. :)
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My idea of the antidrizzt character was a flamboyant male Bard who is obsessed with fashion and secretly wants to make enough gold adventuring to open up a hair salon and spa. Not a small shop on the street, but a huge decked out place made of marble with bath houses and master level masseuses (can't spell those words).
I thought that character already existed, as Jarlaxle?
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But people cry wolf, uh, I mean Clone, as soon as it's a drow. Often, they don't even have the CG alignement (or anything that isn't typical for a drow).
It doesn't even have to a drow for people to scream Clone. My human ranger/fighter(headed for Horiszon walker), was raised in an elven community because his dad had been killed protecting the elves from a demon invasion. He grew up teaching himself how to fight with two short swords. Even though he ended up using a bastard sword and a dagger, my DM still called him a Clone.
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But people cry wolf, uh, I mean Clone, as soon as it's a drow. Often, they don't even have the CG alignement (or anything that isn't typical for a drow).It doesn't even have to a drow for people to scream Clone. My human ranger/fighter(headed for Horiszon walker), was raised in an elven community because his dad had been killed protecting the elves from a demon invasion. He grew up teaching himself how to fight with two short swords. Even though he ended up using a bastard sword and a dagger, my DM still called him a Clone.
Clone of what?
Why would something like that have a social stigma?
the social stigma of being a member of a race renowned for cruelty, sadism, and murder.In a game where the only way to advance in power and ability is to bust into people's homes, kill them and take their stuff? That sort of 'social stigma' would probably be a selling point. :)
Exactly! Sure, the common folk will hate you, but they're only 1st-level commoners, anyway, beneath notice because they drop so little XP and treasure.
But people cry wolf, uh, I mean Clone, as soon as it's a drow. Often, they don't even have the CG alignement (or anything that isn't typical for a drow).It doesn't even have to a drow for people to scream Clone. My human ranger/fighter(headed for Horiszon walker), was raised in an elven community because his dad had been killed protecting the elves from a demon invasion. He grew up teaching himself how to fight with two short swords. Even though he ended up using a bastard sword and a dagger, my DM still called him a Clone.
I blame poor education. People just don't know what clone actually means.
Everything's a clone. That guy with the white facepaint, the red nose, and the oversized shoes is a clone, too!
Driz'zt.How is a human wielding a bastard sword and short sword a clone of Driz'zt
The other day, my aunt was visiting me, complaining about all those movies and game triggers (to be fair to me, they're in or on my TV rack. And they were wii games, and wii remotes and GC joypads) She said I should put them in a drawer. I don't have many drawers here, and I didn't think much about why that is.
Now I know: I hate drawers. People like to put things into drawers to stop thinking about them. Lazy. Too lazy to use the brain and think about things. Just put it away.
That human ranger with bastard sword and short sword is like that, too. He's not really a game trigger. He's a wii remote. His weapons aren't movies, they're video games.
But people don't want to use their brain long enough to make distinctions like that. So it's all the same.