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| 18 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
So...
1) Do I use the weight of the original item, or the new, mithril item?
2) Is the cost of masterwork included in 500gp/lb of non-armor items?
Thanks.
[Note: this is a re-post from another thread (here). There was a lot of great discussion there, but nothing definitive, and I'd like and official answer, if possible. Thanks.]
When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
So...
1) Do I use the weight of the original item, or the new, mithril item?
2) Is the cost of masterwork included in 500gp/lb of non-armor items?Thanks.
[Note: this is a re-post from another thread (here). There was a lot of great discussion there, but nothing definitive, and I'd like and official answer, if possible. Thanks.]
Use the original weight of the weapon BEFORE mithral, not after. You are applying mithral to the original...basically its a template. The problem solves itself.
I'd also use a minimum of 1 lb weight, in case some ninny wants to make shuriken out of mithral, or something. Working on small objects is no less tedious then bigger ones, and in the case of mithral, making a weapon with almost no weight behind it is actually hampering the weapon. Mass = dmg!
If you were going to introduce Monte Cook's finessable weapons property into your game, I'd suggest they all be made out of darkwood or mithral.
==Aelryinth
Use the original weight of the weapon BEFORE mithral, not after. You are applying mithral to the original...basically its a template. The problem solves itself.
In 100% agreement here and a template is the best way to think about it.
I'd also use a minimum of 1 lb weight, in case some ninny wants to make shuriken out of mithral, or something.....
==Aelryinth
Not in agreement actually as I don't think your taking into account the correct prices of masterwork shurikens vs mithral shurikens. Shuriken are treated as ammunition for many purposes including crafting which means you craft the value as if you where making 50 of them.
Masterwork
300gp/50 Shurikens = 6gp for a single Shuriken
6gp*5 = 30gp for a set of 5
Final cost=30gp
Mithral
50 Shurikens weigh 5 lbs
5lbs*500gp = 2500gp
2500gp/50ammunition=50gp the cost of a single shuriken
50gp*5 Shurikens = 250gp for a set of 5.
Final cost=250gp
For a one time use item 250gp is pretty high and is over eight times higher than the masterwork version. So I don't see any reason for it to be even higher.
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Use the original weight of the weapon BEFORE mithral, not after. You are applying mithral to the original...basically its a template. The problem solves itself.In 100% agreement here and a template is the best way to think about it.
It just seems counter-intuitive to pay for twice as much mithril as you are going to actually use. But that is the only way we've been able to make the calculations come out reasonable. The calculation and the formula easy, it's just weird ... "Here's a pound of gold. Make me a half pound statue." No wonder high-end smiths make so much money!
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Why does it have to be that +500 gp per lb. is how much the mithral itself works? This is a table for affixing increasing gold prices to base items. Why can't the table just be referencing the item's base weight?
Thinking in game-mechanics terms and in terms of templates, it makes perfect sense like that. It's just, thinking in-world, I can't imagine paying for something in terms of what it would have cost had it been made out of a heavier material, especially when the whole point of the special material is that it's light. One never pays for a pound of flour as if it weighed as much as lead. You pay for something based on what the actual object weighs.
What I am/was having trouble accepting is that you have to think about this one formula out-of-game. But maybe it's like DeBeers - a consortium of mithril smiths has agreed to price mithril items by the weight of their non-mithril equivalents rather than on the weight of the final product. Or maybe half the mithril is destroyed in the process of making something, necessitating the purchase of twice as much metal as will end up in the final product (at least that's what they tell you!).
I don't have too much experience with calculating the prices of items, but this particular formula seems to be an anomaly in that it is so illogical from a character's POV. But at this point, I'll just shut up and accept it. Thanks all for humoring me :).
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Why does it have to be that +500 gp per lb. is how much the mithral itself works? This is a table for affixing increasing gold prices to base items. Why can't the table just be referencing the item's base weight?Thinking in game-mechanics terms and in terms of templates, it makes perfect sense like that. It's just, thinking in-world, I can't imagine paying for something in terms of what it would have cost had it been made out of a heavier material, especially when the whole point of the special material is that it's light. One never pays for a pound of flour as if it weighed as much as lead. You pay for something based on what the actual object weighs.
What I am/was having trouble accepting is that you have to think about this one formula out-of-game. But maybe it's like DeBeers - a consortium of mithril smiths has agreed to price mithril items by the weight of their non-mithril equivalents rather than on the weight of the final product. Or maybe half the mithril is destroyed in the process of making something, necessitating the purchase of twice as much metal as will end up in the final product (at least that's what they tell you!).
I don't have too much experience with calculating the prices of items, but this particular formula seems to be an anomaly in that it is so illogical from a character's POV. But at this point, I'll just shut up and accept it. Thanks all for humoring me :).
The second thing you said is more likely. It's possible that in order to work with Mithril at all, you have to roll a natural 20 or take 20. Taking 20 implies one failure (which would destroy half the materials).
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Why did nobody bring this up during the Beta you may wonder. The answer is simple - since mithril provided no benefit besides lower weight for weapons, no one ever bothered with mithril weapons.
Nobody complains about rules they aren't using. They simply aren't noticed.
Also, the rules for special materials weren't in beta.
Also, the rules for special materials weren't in beta.Why did nobody bring this up during the Beta you may wonder. The answer is simple - since mithril provided no benefit besides lower weight for weapons, no one ever bothered with mithril weapons.
Nobody complains about rules they aren't using. They simply aren't noticed.
True, nobody can argue rules that don't exist.
I'd go with weight of item before applying the material in quesiton. It seems fair.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, the rules for special materials weren't in beta.Why did nobody bring this up during the Beta you may wonder. The answer is simple - since mithril provided no benefit besides lower weight for weapons, no one ever bothered with mithril weapons.
Nobody complains about rules they aren't using. They simply aren't noticed.
Exactly my point, mithril was changed after the beta. Anything not in the Beta would default to 3.5 SRD. These prices are exactly as they were in 3.5 SRD.
Right, but since there weren't in the actual Beta document, they weren't much commented on, since they were out of sight, out of mind. There were issues with mithril that did get commented on, and got changed, but since they weren't in the document that was Beta, they didn't get the same level of scrutiny that other rules did.
Senior Software Developer
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I took the "Jason please" out of the thread title -- Jason's pretty much committed to reading and answering as much as he can, and I think it can be assumed that every poster wants his or her thread in this forum read and answered by Jason. :-)
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When pricing anything other than armor and shields, mithral costs 500gp/lb. Items made from mithral weigh 1/2 their regular weight. When I figure the cost, am I using the original pre-mithral weight, or the new made-of-mithral weight? Logic would say the new weight because that's how much mithral I'm buying to make my item.
This comes up because I wanted a mithral dagger. A dagger normally weighs 1 lb so I figured a mithral one would weigh 1/2 pound. 1/2 lb of mithral costs 250gp (and includes the price of masterwork), plus 2 for the base price of a dagger. That seems like 252gp for a mithral dagger.
Wait! A regular masterwork dagger costs 302! And the mithril one is harder, lighter and counts as silver vs. damage resistance. Mechanics-wise that's all wrong. But logically, why would I pay for a pound of mithril (500gp) when I'm only using 1/2?
So...
1) Do I use the weight of the original item, or the new, mithril item?
2) Is the cost of masterwork included in 500gp/lb of non-armor items?Thanks.
[Note: this is a re-post from another thread (here). There was a lot of great discussion there, but nothing definitive, and I'd like and official answer, if possible. Thanks.]
Uase the original weight of the weapon BEFORE mithral, not after. You are applying mithral to the original...basically its a template. The problem solves itself.
==Aelryinth
Actually it turns out that this is incorrect. Been waiting for something to indicate whether you use the weight of the mithril item or the original and finally we have it. According to Ultimate Equipment Guide a pot weighs 4lbs and costs 8SP. A mithril pot weighs 2lbs and costs...1001gp, thus the cost of items (including weapons) made of mithril is indeed 500gp * mithril item's weight. The mithril waffle iron also shows this. The results I was hoping for and which in fact makes the most sense to me. Why pay for the weight of an item you're not buying, after all. Hooray! Mithril Wakizashi's here I come.
Yours and others' suggestions of a min wt of items and weapons (I wouldn't include ammo) for the price calculation does seem logical though. 1lb would make sense as any item would thereby cost more than the normal MW equivalent, but as it stands there doesn't seem to be anything in the rules to enforce this.
I do disagree with your mass equals damage statement, though. Force is generally considered the driver behind damage. The equation for force is F=1/2 mv^2 thus you actually get more force out of velocity and of course it's easier to get a lighter weapon to higher speeds. Mithril items are stated as being as strong at their iron counterparts thus the decrease in weight making them weaker seems to be a non factor as well. That's my 2 cents on all things mithril.
The equation for force is F=1/2 mv^2
Actually, (1/2 m v^2) is the equation for kinetic energy, not force.
Force is F=ma.
Good old Newton.
The equation for force is F=1/2 mv^2Actually, (1/2 m v^2) is the equation for kinetic energy, not force.
Alas, you are correct. F=ma=mdv/dt=dp/dt. To think I passed the FE exam once upon a time and certainly noone would believe it now. :( Rather than go into a discussion of inelastic collisions/momentum and such I'll just say that velocity also matters, thus equating mass to be the only factor in damage is not correct.
Rather than go into a discussion of inelastic collisions/momentum and such I'll just say that velocity also matters, thus equating mass to be the only factor in damage is not correct.
Of course. Both mass and velocity are part of kinetic energy, and momentum.
(I think I shouldn't open the can of worms containing spin and rotational kinetic energy, as most weapons aren't exactly used in a straight line only...)
The mithral cookware in UE makes the OP look even more like a FAQ candidate than ever. Especially for PFS, and other alphabet soups.
In my game I made it clear when my players found 4 mithril bars in an old dwarven keep that I will be using the kilobar-standard so that all bars weigh 1 kilo, or roughly 2 lbs. Mithril being lighter just made the bars double the size for the same weight. I then told them that 1 lb of mithril is worth 500 GP and that their 4 kgs or 8 lbs would be worth 4000 GP.
Then if you wanna craft a mithril full plate you would need +9000 for being a mithril heavy armor = 10500 GP. But since you only pay 1/3 the price in materials that would be 3500 GP worth of mithril. In the case of these Big mithril bars (same size as 8 iron bars) they would have enough to make a full plate, but not enough to be able to make any mistakes in the crafting and waste materials.
Hope you guys like my ruling.
Glacier
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Design Manager
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Use the original weight of the weapon BEFORE mithral, not after. You are applying mithral to the original...basically its a template. The problem solves itself.Actually it turns out that this is incorrect. Been waiting for something to indicate whether you use the weight of the mithril item or the original and finally we have it. According to Ultimate Equipment Guide a pot weighs 4lbs and costs 8SP. A mithril pot weighs 2lbs and costs...1001gp, thus the cost of items (including weapons) made of mithril is indeed 500gp * mithril item's weight. The mithril waffle iron also shows this. The results I was hoping for and which in...
This came up in our PFS game just recently and I'm curious if there's been any further clarification. Right now it looks like the most recent core items are priced at 500 * final weight in mithril. Curious as to whether this is how it should be calculated.
This came up in our PFS game just recently and I'm curious if there's been any further clarification. Right now it looks like the most recent core items are priced at 500 * final weight in mithril. Curious as to whether this is how it should be calculated.
There has been no further clarification. And the examples in the books don't help. Ultimate Equipment has mithral cookware, which is priced at the reduced weight, not the items original weight.
Then there is the Wreath of Blades spell in Ultimate Combat, which requires 4 mithral daggers as a focus, and clearly states they cost a minimum of 502gp each. Which is what a mithral dagger would cost when priced on the items original weight.
(Even worse is that this issue not only affects mithral, but Ultimate Equipment introduced darkleaf cloth. It also cuts weight in half, and is priced at 500gp/pound. But like mithral, no mention of whether the price is based on the items original weight, or its new reduced weight.)
The problem with a 500 gp/lb. value for mithral, is that at that price there are many official mithral items that if purchased at their official market price, and then melted down would yield mithral for much less.
The most egregious example being a 1,100 gp mithral shirt weighing 10 lbs. Any player could just buy the shirt and melt it down to get mithral for 110 gp/lb. And to craft such a shirt, the armorer must have a supplier willing to sell mithral for 1/3 of that (36.7 gp/lb.)
Even if we double the price of mithral light armor to +2,000 gp, there is the next example of a 1,020 gp mithral heavy shield weighing 5 lbs. Any player could just buy the shield and melt it down to get mithral for 204 gp/lb. And to craft such a shirt, the armorer must have a supplier willing to sell mithral for 1/3 of that (68 gp/lb.)
A market value of mithral as a raw material of ~68 gp/lb. implies a market price for miscellaneous mithral items of +200 gp/lb. (using the mithral weight), or +100 gp/lb. (using the original weight).
So if a GM were to ask me for +500 gp/lb. for already crafted items, I would ask if I could commission a crafter to do the work using mithral I supply. Presuming the GM says yes, I would then buy and melt down, mithral shirts to save a ton of money.
In my game I made it clear when my players found 4 mithril bars in an old dwarven keep that I will be using the kilobar-standard so that all bars weigh 1 kilo, or roughly 2 lbs. Mithril being lighter just made the bars double the size for the same weight. I then told them that 1 lb of mithril is worth 500 GP and that their 4 kgs or 8 lbs would be worth 4000 GP.
Your value of mithril doesnt make sense. 500GP/lb is the value of a finished item crafted from mithril, not the material cost. And as pointed out by another poster, if you treat mithril as 500GP/lb you have a huge market issue as people would buy mithril chain shirts, break them down and sell the mithril that was worth more than the finished shirt...
That's also presuming the entire thing is made out of mithril. Even with a chain shirt, you'd have a gambeson or leather jerkin underneath (similar to studded leather but without the studs). Then if a DM wanted to argue with you to prevent such cheesery, he could say the weight also included things like the rest of your outfit - pants, boots, etc - things necessary to be dressed respectably enough to be seen in public.
With a shield, to prevent such tomfoolery, the DM could argue that a steel shield isn't entirely steel - but instead is a solid sheet of metal mounted onto a wooden backing. Easier to affix handles/straps to woood than it is steel/mithril, without threatening the integrity of the shield's blocking surface by punching holes in it.
That's also presuming the entire thing is made out of mithril. Even with a chain shirt, you'd have a gambeson or leather jerkin underneath (similar to studded leather but without the studs). Then if a DM wanted to argue with you to prevent such cheesery, he could say the weight also included things like the rest of your outfit - pants, boots, etc - things necessary to be dressed respectably enough to be seen in public.
With a shield, to prevent such tomfoolery, the DM could argue that a steel shield isn't entirely steel - but instead is a solid sheet of metal mounted onto a wooden backing. Easier to affix handles/straps to woood than it is steel/mithril, without threatening the integrity of the shield's blocking surface by punching holes in it.
The weight of other worn gear has nothing to do with the calculations in my posts, that would always be extra to the weight an cost of any armor.
I also considered the arguments about some items being made from more that one material, but every depiction and detailed description of mithral shirts I have seen is pretty clear that they are just that, a shirt made of mithral links without anything else underneath. I.E. such a shirt can be worn unnoticed under regular clothing. Even if there was some fabric included, it would not reasonably be more than a pound or two, most of the weight would still be the mithral which at half the weight of steel, is still much heavier than cloth.
Just to play devils advocate, lets say that a 10 lb. mithral shirt only contains 5 lbs. of mithral; that is still a max raw material cost of +1000 gp / 5 lb. / 3 (crafting rules) = 66.67 gp/lb.
Special material prices do not translate into amount of the material used.
They are a game mechanic to represent how mechanically valuable (as opposed to economically valuable) that special material is when applied to that category of armor.
Trying to state that X armor has X amount of mithral in it is futile.
- Gauss
Special material prices do not translate into amount of the material used.
They are a game mechanic to represent how mechanically valuable (as opposed to economically valuable) that special material is when applied to that category of armor.
Trying to state that X armor has X amount of mithral in it is futile.
- Gauss
I know why the armor cost what it does (game mechanics and balance), I'm just pointing out that once that valuation exists it gives a limit to the value of mithral that can be calculated.
Going with the most forgiving approach possible: The rules require that an item be primarily made of a material to gain the benefit of said material. So a 10 lb., 1100 gp., mithral shirt must contain at least 5 lbs. of mithral. That give an absolute maximum value for mithral as a raw material of 73 gp./lb. (= +250 gp/lb.) So for the +500 gp/lb. to be economically viable, one would have to make light armor double the price at +2000 gp.
Other assumptions only make mithral worth even less, which leads to one conclusion. The official price of a mithral shirt is too low to exist economically with the given value of mithral itself. What you do with that information is up to you, but not liking it does not make it go away.
Special material costs is something that needs to be reevaluated by the design team, in my opinion. This isn't the first time that it's come up - most frequently I remember seeing the fact that a mithral dagger for a small creature costs less than a masterwork dagger of regular iron or steel, yet is treated as masterwork because of the material.
Economics have no place in D&D/Pathfinder. Every time people try to apply economics to this game it ends up badly.
As a half-joke I call GP what it really is: treasure points (TP, lol). It is one metric for measuring the power of a character. Nothing more.
- Gauss
The question was answered via equipment examples in Ultimate Equipment. Mithral is priced with the new reduced weight.
- Gauss
The question was answered via equipment examples in Ultimate Equipment. Mithral is priced with the new reduced weight.
- Gauss
The simplest fix for mithral weapons might be to "clarify" that mithral weapons are priced by their new lower weight, but such pricing does not include the masterwork cost.
I.E. armor has special numbers and those include masterwork. Other items do not have special costs, and the cost by weight does not include masterwork.
Are there any official mithral weapons that state they are masterwork and have a price.
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The question was answered via equipment examples in Ultimate Equipment. Mithral is priced with the new reduced weight.
The problem with this argument is that, as has already been pointed out, there are now items in different books priced differently. Some use the original weight, and some use the new Mithral weight. Both pricings cannot both be correct, so we need a clarification and/or errata.
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I'm sure "items that weigh less than half a pound" would have to be included in any final ruling, but for special material ammunition costs specifically you'd probably have to make a separate thread.
(although I'm still unclear why you're unhappy with the answers I've given you before regarding Mithral ammunition)
MJBurrage, mithral weapon prices shouldn't be priced by weight anyhow. They should have a flat cost like most of the other special materials.
Nefreet, could you point out the contradictions? I must have missed them.
LazarX, Herolab is not writing the game, Paizo is, and Herolab has been known to be incorrect on occasion. Citing Herolab is not proof that Ultimate Equipment is incorrect.
Note: I also always believed it to be the original weight of the item before the property is applied. I am not saying I like that the item's cost is the weight after the property is applied. It is counter-intuitive.
- Gauss
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@ Gauss
The Wreath of Blades spell from Ultimate Combat states that a 1 pound Mithral dagger costs 502gp.
Now, granted, UC came out much earlier than UE, so we would need errata on one of the books, at least.
Nefreet, thanks for that reference. Any other references that you are aware of?
- Gauss
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I also never noticed that Mithral and Platinum are the same value per pound. Adamantine is listed at 300gp/lb. Useful information in this discussion, imo.
Mithral Manacles are not Steel Manacles made out of Mithral. They are a completely different type of Manacles.
Standard Manacles have 10hp. Iron or Steel has 30hp per inch of thickness.
Mithral Manacles have 30hp. Mithral also has 30hp per inch of thickness.
So based on this they are 3 times as thick as normal manacles. If anything they should be 2lbs*3/2 = 3lbs instead of 2lbs/2 = 1lb.
Assuming pricing is based on the reduced weight they are priced correctly.
- Gauss
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I've mentioned this in other threads, but if I went into a shop that was advertising mithral at the (book) price of 500gp/lb, and I gave them 500gp I would expect a pound of mithral.
If they tried to charge me 1000gp on the grounds that if it were steel instead of mithral it would weigh two pounds....!
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As a jewelry salesman, one of the most annoying assumptions I hear from customers is that if the price of gold is $X/ounce, then the jewelry they're looking to purchase should not cost a penny more.
I apply the same logic to purchasing special materials in Pathfinder, although I have to admit these recent disturbances raise my doubts.
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As a jewelry salesman, one of the most annoying assumptions I hear from customers is that if the price of gold is $X/ounce, then the jewelry they're looking to purchase should not cost a penny more.
I apply the same logic to purchasing special materials in Pathfinder, although I have to admit these recent disturbances raise my doubts.
Second this. Any item is going to cost more than the sum of its component parts. Saying that an item made of mithral costs 500gp per pound of the finished item says nothing about the cost of mithral. It does almost certainly include the cost of working the mithral. And any material is going to be easier to work in some ways as opposed to others.
Use skills and craft it yourself. The Price is 500g per pound of the original components, but the Cost it's 1/3. You do not even need feats to craft it, since weapons and armor made of Mithral are not considered magic yet. You just need a high enough craft skill.