from P.549 of the PFRPG rule book, second paragraph.
Can I have some examples please?
Is it a spell they can't cast, or a CL that is too high?
What can be built without a prequisite?
Say you're a wizard and you want to build an amulet of NA. Because barkskin(druid spell) is a prereq, you would then calculate the DC for crafting and then add +5.
Some items have several spells tied to them in creation. Some have other types of prereqs. The way I see it to read is, however many of those prereqs listed under the item that the caster doesn't meet, you have to add +5(for each one) to the DC of creation.
Any magical item can be built without the proper prereq but not without the proper Craft feat. The CL must always be met. There is no way around that.
Take Apparatus of the Crab:
Your CL must be 19th
You must have the Craft Wondorous Item feat
animate object spell
continual flame spell
8 ranks in knowledge(engineering)
The DC to create this is 24(5+CL). If the creator doesn't have any of the latter 3 prereqs, the DC goes up to 39. You can still create it but it's gonna be a lot tougher.
Hope this helps!
I was looking through the rules and there is one other change I noticed in the rules. In order to create a wand you must actually have the spell prepared or known. Under 3.5 I think you were allowed to have have one person craft and another provide the spell.
If you don't have the spell does that mean you take +5 DC and still need someone else to cast it or are you off the hook for the spell if you take the 5?
also ...
I'm guessing there is no requirement to cast that given spell everyday of work, sense I don't see it anywhere in the book.
First full paragraph of page 549 states: "you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Don't know if this means you have to provide the spell yourself, but the spell definitely must be provided.
If you don't have the spell does that mean you take +5 DC and still need someone else to cast it or are you off the hook for the spell if you take the 5?
also ...
I'm guessing there is no requirement to cast that given spell everyday of work, sense I don't see it anywhere in the book.
You don't need the spell at all. The +5 DC replaces that. Like Ogre said, in 3.5 you can get someone to cast the spell for you. I'm guessing you could still get someone to help you in that regard to avoid the higher DC. I haven't read the Core thoroughly on this but I guess that's still holds true. I wouldn't see why not.
It seems like, IMO, that this seems more geared toward wondrous items, magic armor, and magic weapons. Not so much staffs, wands, and potions. Of course there all always exceptions to both.
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You don't need the spell at all. The +5 DC replaces that. Like Ogre said, in 3.5 you can get someone to cast the spell for you. I'm guessing you could still get someone to help you in that regard to avoid the higher DC. I haven't read the Core thoroughly on this but I guess that's still holds true. I wouldn't see why not.
It seems like, IMO, that this seems more geared toward wondrous items, magic armor, and magic weapons. Not so much staffs, wands, and potions. Of course there all always exceptions to both.
But on page 549 it says:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created."
My reading of this means that the +5DC is for if you have someone else meet the requirement. Can someone provide a definitive verdict?
But on page 549 it says:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created."
My reading of this means that the +5DC is for if you have someone else meet the requirement. Can someone provide a definitive verdict?
Keep reeding the paragraph....
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
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The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
Yes, I read this but it still seems to say that if the caster doesn't know the spell then its a +5DC to get someone else to cast it ... (combined with the quote saying all requirements must be met).
Maybe I'm the only one who reads it that way?
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.Yes, I read this but it still seems to say that if the caster doesn't know the spell then its a +5DC to get someone else to cast it ... (combined with the quote saying all requirements must be met).
Maybe I'm the only one who reads it that way?
I can understand the confusion, but I think the way it is worded, it is saying that having the spell available through a magic item or another caster qualifies as meeting the prerequisite. Without getting to grammar nazi about it, the statement is included in the sentence talking about meeting the prerequisites. The statement about not meeting prerequisites is in a new sentence, so is a separate statement.
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As I read it, there are only 2 item creation prerequisites that cannot be satisfied with the +5 DC to the creation check. These are the creation feat and any spells needed for spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
In other words, if you wanted to create a Belt of Physical Perfection, the prerequisites are: caster level 16, craft wondrous item feat, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace.
The standard DC is caster level (16) + 5 (as on page 548) or +10 (as on page 112) [this question is being addressed in another thread]
for this example, let us assume page 112 is right. The DC is then 26.
Now let's assume the caster is only level 12, and has none of the required spells. The belt is not a spell-trigger or spell completion, so that is 4 ignored prerequisites. 26 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = DC 46. More likely he will end up making a cursed item, but he can still try.
On the flipside, items like wands and scrolls (spell-trigger and spell-completion) must have the creation feat and the required spell(s) prepared but can still ignore other prerequisites (like caster level) by adding +5 to the DC.
As I read it, there are only 2 item creation prerequisites that cannot be satisfied with the +5 DC to the creation check. These are the creation feat and any spells needed for spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
Actually, there are three: The creation feat, spells for spell-trigger or spell-completion items, and caster level (page 460 is pretty clear on that one)
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As I read it, there are only 2 item creation prerequisites that cannot be satisfied with the +5 DC to the creation check. These are the creation feat and any spells needed for spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
Actually, there are three: The creation feat, spells for spell-trigger or spell-completion items, and caster level (page 460 is pretty clear on that one)
Ah, thanks. I was looking for where the CL requirement was described - of course, I was foolishly looking in the Magic Item Creation section of the book...
Actually, there are three: The creation feat, spells for spell-trigger or spell-completion items, and caster level (page 460 is pretty clear on that one)As I read it, there are only 2 item creation prerequisites that cannot be satisfied with the +5 DC to the creation check. These are the creation feat and any spells needed for spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
I disagree. The only prerequisite required to craft an item is the creation feat.
As per page 549 under creating magic items, it states:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create pelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Supporting evidence is found in the Master Craftman Feat.
The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
I love this rule. Since the word "mandatory" in this case seems a bit arbitrary, however, I might try a small change: lacking the item creation feat instead adds +10 to the DC. This opens up magic item creation to non-casters, making craftsmanship itself inherently magical.
I wouldn't allow this for scrolls, wands, and staffs, items that specifically pertain to casters (where a mandatory caster level as a feat prereq makes sense).
Actually, there are three: The creation feat, spells for spell-trigger or spell-completion items, and caster level (page 460 is pretty clear on that one)As I read it, there are only 2 item creation prerequisites that cannot be satisfied with the +5 DC to the creation check. These are the creation feat and any spells needed for spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
I disagree. The only prerequisite required to craft an item is the creation feat.
As per page 549 under creating magic items, it states:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create pelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.Supporting evidence is found in the Master Craftman Feat.
The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
I don't think your reading the whole feat. It states that you chose a Craft or Profession skill that you have at least 5 ranks in, and can use those ranks as your caster level to qualify for two specific craft feats. It then goes to say that you use your ranks in that craft skill as your caster level from making those items. How does that in any way support the idea that you can ignore caster level requirements?
Page 460, Pathfinder RPG, under Magic Item Descriptions, Caster Level:
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a
higher minimum on the creator’s level)
And on Page 461, Pathfinder RPG under Requirements:
Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.
And then on Page 549, Pathfinder RPG, under Magic Item Creation:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic
item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not
meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation
feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger
and spell-completion magic items without meeting
their spell prerequisites.
Theres no place in any of the text that states that caster level is a prerequisite, or that even implies that. Page 461 in fact, that the prerequisites for the requirements to create an item are listed AFTER the caster level.
This came up for me in Beta, and the players and I disagreed.
However I won't elaborate in great detail, other than to say both points of view that we had.. are already represented by posters in this thread.
Reading this is like deja vu.
So I have a vested interest in seeing a definitive answer on this from Jason Bulmahn.
P.461 - "The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level."
This is the clearest I've seen it stated anywhere.
The text from p.460 was in the 3.5 book and *quickly* errata'd - the Caster Level (CL) of an item was never a prerequisite. [A perfectly find houserule, and a common not-harmful misinterpretation, but never actually a prerequisite.]
So again, "The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level."
Caster Level is not a prerequisite unless it is listed after the item's caster level. That sounds inane, until you see all the items that actually *do* this - Ioun Stones for instance state clearly "your caster level must be at least 12" to make one. Spell Storing on a weapon is similar.
That makes the caster level a prerequisite, but still not an absolute one, so you can take a +5 to the DC to overcome it. If this were not true, there would be no need to list this additional text for these feats.
So DC for Belt of Physical Perfection is CL 16 + X (5 or 10 depending on rule clarification) + 0/5 (have/don't-have Cat's Grace) + 0/5 (Bull's Str) + 0/5 (Bear's End). Total anywhere from 21 to 41. Caster Level is not an issue in that though.
...The CL must always be met. There is no way around that.
Take Apparatus of the Crab:
Your CL must be 19th
Hmmm? That's not how it was in 3.5. Is that a PF change?
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I keep bringing this up in the various threads but I will bring it up again here.
The Caster Level of an item is not a requirement unless it is a weapon, armor, or shield.
It is not listed under Requirements, and only the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat actually mentions it as being required. The other feats do not. CL is used for the purposes of setting the crafting DC, the DC to identify it, the aura of the item, etc. It is not a requirement for crafting (unless weapon/armor/shield).
Edit: Majuba points this out before me. Well done acolyte. I will see to it that your Quarterstaff receives a +1 enhancement.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Caster Level is not a prerequisite unless it is listed after the item's caster level. That sounds inane, until you see all the items that actually *do* this - Ioun Stones for instance state clearly "your caster level must be at least 12" to make one. Spell Storing on a weapon is similar.
I agree. There are a few oddball exceptions. Weapons and Armor have a caster level restriction on the creator:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
I can't find the 3.5 restriction on intelligent item creation in the PRD (the one that requires the creator to be caster level 15th or higher). Maybe that's a PF change?
I keep bringing this up in the various threads but I will bring it up again here.
The Caster Level of an item is not a requirement unless it is a weapon, armor, or shield.
It is not listed under Requirements, and only the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat actually mentions it as being required. The other feats do not. CL is used for the purposes of setting the crafting DC, the DC to identify it, the aura of the item, etc. It is not a requirement for crafting (unless weapon/armor/shield).
Edit: Majuba points this out before me. Well done acolyte. I will see to it that your Quarterstaff receives a +1 enhancement.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
I hate to disagree with a god (well...not really...) but...
Again, page 460 of the Pathfinder RPG:
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster level
So, if your caster level is below the items caster level, there is no way to bypass that. If your trying to create an item listed as CL 16, you have to have a caster level 16. Yes, there are items where the items caster level is lower than a listel level prerequisite, the Scarab, Golembane is a good example. Its an 8th caster level wonderous item, that under requirements lists that creator must be 10th level. In that case, an 8th level caster could take a +5 DC to ignore the listed level prequisite. But something like the Belt of Physical Perfection, a CL 16 item, using spells most casters know by level 5, still isn't creatable at 5th level, since CL isn't a prerequisite.
I hate to disagree with a god (well...not really...) but...
Again, page 460 of the Pathfinder RPG:
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster levelSo, if your caster level is below the items caster level, there is no way to bypass that. If your trying to create an item listed as CL 16, you have to have a caster level 16. Yes, there are items where the items caster level is lower than a listel level prerequisite, the Scarab, Golembane is a good example. Its an 8th caster level wonderous item, that under requirements lists that creator must be 10th level. In that case, an 8th level caster could take a +5 DC to ignore the listed level prequisite. But something like the Belt of Physical Perfection, a CL 16 item, using spells most casters know by level 5, still isn't creatable at 5th level, since CL isn't a prerequisite.
It is possible under the pathfinder rules to make magic items without even being a spell caster. Master crafters can create any magic item other than a spell completion item.
A master smith can use his ranks of smithing to make magic weapons and armor. An alchemist could make potions. A jeweler could even make your Scarab of Golembane. If they had the required item creation feats.
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For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level.
I find that single blurb to be...out of place. Without it, everything makes sense. Craft Magic Arms and Armor specifically mentions caster level as a requirement, indicating it is not normally so. Some items mention caster level under the Requirements, indicating it is not always a requirement.
But this blurb... is annoying. It most definitely was not this way in 3.5, the FAQ clarified that, so it would be a PRPG unique change. It also makes the Craft feats a lot less useful. We actually played this way (thinking CL was a requirement) for a while back in RotRL before one of us saw the FAQ, and both crafters were regretting their feat choice. Often an item seemed to have such a silly high CL for what it required (I remember a few items in particular that required level 1 spells but had a CL of 10+) and other items that they seemed to start finding / being able to afford early on had a much higher CL that by the time they got to that point they didn't need to craft them anymore (+2 ability score items being CL 8? Lame).
I am hoping this blurb is just bad wording or a mistake. If not, I will be a little sad.
I hate to disagree with a god (well...not really...) but...Again, page 460 of the Pathfinder RPG:
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster levelSo, if your caster level is below the items caster level, there is no way to bypass that.
This is easy to misread |: It should say:
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s [chosen] caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level.
Choosing what caster level to make the item is different than having a prerequisite of a caster level. You can pick whatever caster level you want when you make a wonderous item provided it's higher than the caster level listed. You have to make the appropriate crafting check (usually spellcraft) to make the item based on the caster level *you picked*.
I'm bumping this back up.. I'd really like Jason to review it, if he'd be so kind.
I just took this feat so I thought I'd give it a bump too.
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As I read it, there are only 2 item creation prerequisites that cannot be satisfied with the +5 DC to the creation check. These are the creation feat and any spells needed for spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
In other words, if you wanted to create a Belt of Physical Perfection, the prerequisites are: caster level 16, craft wondrous item feat, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace.
The standard DC is caster level (16) + 5 (as on page 548) or +10 (as on page 112) [this question is being addressed in another thread]
for this example, let us assume page 112 is right. The DC is then 26.
Now let's assume the caster is only level 12, and has none of the required spells. The belt is not a spell-trigger or spell completion, so that is 4 ignored prerequisites. 26 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = DC 46. More likely he will end up making a cursed item, but he can still try.On the flipside, items like wands and scrolls (spell-trigger and spell-completion) must have the creation feat and the required spell(s) prepared but can still ignore other prerequisites (like caster level) by adding +5 to the DC.
I hope it gets cursed with Gender Change. Imagine a Half-Orc monk donning a Belt of Gender Changing Physical Perfection. He'd be the loveliest half-orc in all the land!
I understand item crafting as follows:
So by what I seem to be reading in the core rule book and various posts a crafter cannot create a flaming weapon until 10th level? Every game I have ever been in (3.5 or Pathfinder) always had better treasure acquired by then. The only reason any of my players (or when I was not a dm any of my fellow players or my characters) did not make our own magic items was the XP cost. Why bother to loose XP when you could go thumping and get it anyway.
I guess that was more of a rant than a question.
But what I have observed is that this issue defiantly needs clarification.
So by what I seem to be reading in the core rule book and various posts a crafter cannot create a flaming weapon until 10th level? Every game I have ever been in (3.5 or Pathfinder) always had better treasure acquired by then.
One wouldn't be able to apply the flaming special ability to a weapon until level 10, but at that point a crafter could create a +3 keen flaming ghost touch weapon.
Applying any single ability to a weapon at level 10 may not stack up to what an adventurer would find in their travels. But applying multiple abilities to such a weapon can.
i kind of figured that... thanks for the clarification.
I am kind of curious about one other thing though. In the ruling as I understand it, you have to have at least 3 times the enhancement bonus you are putting on a weapon… and any other prerequisites you don’t meet add a cumulative +5 to the DC to create it.
So as per our say 10th level fighter with Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Mastercraftsman feats could in theory create a +3 Keen Flaming Burst Long sword, with the DC to create being 27 (CL 12 for flaming burst +5 for not having 12 ranks in Craft(weaponsmith) +5 for not having any one of the optional spells)
Is this correct as he meets the required CL/Ranks for the +3 or would he not be able to create it as he does not meet the CL/Ranks requirement for Flaming Burst.
I believe the latter may be the correct answer...
I understand item crafting as follows:
Every requirement must be met to craft a magic item, as well as caster level. There is no way to bypass this. You can't enchant a sword with the flaming weapon special ability without providing the magical energies needed to power said ability. A belt of dwarvenkind can't be created by anyone other than a dwarf.
Unless crafting a spelltrigger or spell-completion item, an item's creator can meet spell requirements through the use of outside sources, such as casting spells from other magic items or hiring another spellcaster to provide them. Every such requirement that an item's creator does not personally meet incurs the cumulative +5 penalty to DC; it should be more difficult to infuse an item with magical energies that an individual is not personally familiar with.
In the case of spelltrigger or spell-completion items, the item's creator must personally meet the spell requirements. Such requirements cannot be cast from a scroll or similar item, in essence transferring the spell from one item to another. Nor can they be cast by another spellcaster; in such an instance the other spellcaster should be the one crafting the item in the first place.
For what it's worth Heaven's Agent, your interpretation is spot on with how I interpret it. Completely agreement.
My players have disagreed, taking the interpretation some of the previous posters in this thread have adopted. However, they've respected my ruling on it.
It's just unfortunate that I've had to drag the GMing Gavel out and make a ruling. Because they look at you like, "Well, it's your game so we have to do it your way." It happens, but I prefer not to have to do that on a rule that should be clear and objective.. and not subjective.
(Paging Mr. Bulmahn! And I'm not tring to be a whiner and complain, but I'd just love for this to be clearer..)
Hmm. I understand item crafting as follows:
This was all made clear in the Beta playtesting forums, I'll shall endeavor to provide a link in an edit. The language regarding prerequisites at the time was the same.
So as per our say 10th level fighter with Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Mastercraftsman feats could in theory create a +3 Keen Flaming Burst Long sword, with the DC to create being 27 (CL 12 for flaming burst +5 for not having 12 ranks in Craft(weaponsmith) +5 for not having any one of the optional spells)
DC would be 27, but for 5 + CL 12 + 5 no flaming burst spells + 5 no keen edge. He meets the 9th caster level prereq for the sword being +3.
Edit:Okay, here is the forum where everything was discussed (wow hard to find). There is a *lot* of back and forth on what the penalties should be, so please don't read too much into the details, just that the prerequisites are being discussed as things that can be bypassed with an increase to the DC. Thread.
Here's a precise post from Jason with that same thought (again, the DCs/modifiers he mentions don't seem to have made it into the final, just the general idea here).
I think I have the source of confusion nailed down.
There is definitely a shift between PF and 3.5 when it comes to item creation.
From the Magic Item Description section under Caster Level:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
This is a clear difference between 3.5 and PF. Pathfinder seems to state definitely that the creator's caster level "must be as high as the item's caster level" -- there's no "choosing" option, which is implied in the 3.5 version.
So it seems there are two separate restrictions in PF -- a restriction on the caster level imposed on all non-potions/scrolls/wands and, for weapons and armor, an additional restriction where the creator's caster level must be at least 3 times the enhancement bonus.
(side note: Why oh why wasn't this text moved to the magic item creation section? No wonder it's confusing, especially to people who have played 3.5. . .)
Edit:Okay, here is the forum where everything was discussed (wow hard to find). There is a *lot* of back and forth on what the penalties should be, so please don't read too much into the details, just that the prerequisites are being discussed as things that can be bypassed with an increase to the DC.
While I do honestly appreciate the effort in finding this, Majuba, it doesn't really apply in this discussion. All that was essentially brain storming, focusing on what could be part of the final product. Now we're discussing what has been included in the Core Rules, a very different beast. We need an official post on the matter.
i kind of figured that... thanks for the clarification.
I am kind of curious about one other thing though. In the ruling as I understand it, you have to have at least 3 times the enhancement bonus you are putting on a weapon… and any other prerequisites you don’t meet add a cumulative +5 to the DC to create it.
So as per our say 10th level fighter with Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Mastercraftsman feats could in theory create a +3 Keen Flaming Burst Long sword, with the DC to create being 27 (CL 12 for flaming burst +5 for not having 12 ranks in Craft(weaponsmith) +5 for not having any one of the optional spells)
Is this correct as he meets the required CL/Ranks for the +3 or would he not be able to create it as he does not meet the CL/Ranks requirement for Flaming Burst.
I believe the latter may be the correct answer...
OK, obviously the following is based on how I understand the final crafting system:
Your fighter could not add the flaming burst special ability until his effective caster level reached 12. That said, there's nothing preventing him from staring on his longsword now.
I would recommend treating each special ability as a unique enchantment process; You can always add abilities to a magic item, and it just makes things easier to break it down in such a manner.
9,000 gp, 18 days to complete, Craft (weapons) DC 14 (5 + 9 [CL])
7,000 gp, 14 days to complete, Craft (weapons) DC 20 (5 + 10 [CL] + 5 [cannot cast keen edge])
NOTE: Because your fighter cannot cast keen edge himself, he has to find other means of acquiring the magic required for the enchantment. He could get someone else to provide the spell each day of crafting. Or he could use a wand of keen edge, or even multiple scrolls of keen edge, activated by successful Use Magic Device checks.
At level 12, provided your warrior maintains maximum ranks in his Craft skill, he could add the flaming burst ability to his longsword.
20,000 gp, 40 days to complete, Craft (weapons) DC 22 (5 + 12 [CL] + 5 [cannot cast flame blade, flame strike, or fireball])
NOTE: Once again, because your fighter cannot provide the spell energy himself, he needs to obtain it from another source for each day of crafting.
I understand item crafting as follows:
Every requirement must be met to craft a magic item, as well as caster level. There is no way to bypass this. You can't enchant a sword with the flaming weapon special ability without providing the magical energies needed to power said ability. A belt of dwarvenkind can't be created by anyone other than a dwarf.
Unless crafting a spelltrigger or spell-completion item, an item's creator can meet spell requirements through the use of outside sources, such as casting spells from other magic items or hiring another spellcaster to provide them. Every such requirement that an item's creator does not personally meet incurs the cumulative +5 penalty to DC; it should be more difficult to infuse an item with magical energies that an individual is not personally familiar with.
In the case of spelltrigger or spell-completion items, the item's creator must personally meet the spell requirements. Such requirements cannot be cast from a scroll or similar item, in essence transferring the spell from one item to another. Nor can they be cast by another spellcaster; in such an instance the other spellcaster should be the one crafting the item in the first place.
I believe your interpretation is wrong based on the text on page 549. The +5 DC to the check replaces the missing requirement. I believe that is the intent, not to raise the DC of each component the creator personally does not meet yet still must obtain.
The comments about the requisite feat and the spell for spell-completion and -triggering items being mandatory are the key. If those are the only exceptions, then it becomes clear that caster level and other enabling prerequisites are not mandatory and thus may be met by substitution... of the +5 DC.
I believe your interpretation is wrong based on the text on page 549. The +5 DC to the check replaces the missing requirement. I believe that is the intent, not to raise the DC of each component the creator personally does not meet yet still must obtain.
The comments about the requisite feat and the spell for spell-completion and -triggering items being mandatory are the key. If those are the only exceptions, then it becomes clear that caster level and other enabling prerequisites are not mandatory and thus may be met by substitution... of the +5 DC.
I took that section into consideration already. The text never claims the +5 is intended to replace the missing requirement:
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I consider the comments about the requisite feat and the spell for spell-completion and spell-triggering items being mandatory to indicate that a crafter must personally meet these requirements, and nothing more. Equally important, though, is the statement that appears earlier in the paragraph:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Regardless of +5 penalties incurred while crafting an item, I read this to mean that all the magical energies to do so have to be made available. One can't create a metal longsword without a metal blade. One shouldn't be able to enchant a magic item without magic. These energies can be obtained from sources other than the item's creator, but they have to be supplied.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
To me, this indicates that besides the item creation feat, there is no other requirement to craft a magical item.
So, for your earlier example of crafting a flaming sword, as long as you have Craft Magic Arms and Armor, a 5th level caster could attempt to create the sword (as long as they had the feat).
They would take a hit on the DC due to not meeting the caster level, and possibly a second one if they do not know the proper spell, but they could attempt to craft the flaming sword.
This helps to explain why there are cursed items in the world, as less experienced casters had/have/are attempting to make ambitious magic items.
They would take a hit on the DC due to not meeting the caster level, and possibly a second one if they do not know the proper spell, but they could attempt to craft the flaming sword.
This depends on whether or not Caster Level is considered a "prerequisite" for crafting an item or a "restriction" for creating an item.
A prerequisite has traditionally (in 3.5) been spells, feats, class abilities, even a requirement that a caster be a certain level.
Now, with PF's new wording, a caster level might be a prerequisite *or* it might be simply a limit that cannot be overcome, even by a crafting check.
In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
This text seems to imply that a caster level is not necessarily a prerequisite. If so, it should read:
In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and other prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
However, other places seem to imply that caster level is a prerequisite:
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
I guess I would lean toward the view that caster level is a prerequisite (and thus can be avoided with a high enough crafting check), but I don't think the wording is clear at all |:
This helps to explain why there are cursed items in the world, as less experienced casters had/have/are attempting to make ambitious magic items.
Yes, but even with the DCs I mentioned for the +3 keen flaming burst longsword, its possible to fail the skill check to the point that a cursed item is created.
Cursed items are supposed to be somewhat rare, and the smaller failure chance would make them so. Additionally, based on how I understand the crafting rules, it would take a total of 72 days of work to complete the weapon, each of which would require a noncaster to successfully activate an item through Use Magic Device or pay a caster to provide a spell multiple times. In such circumstances, speeding up the crafting process would be an understandable choice, and would incur an additional +5 penalty. Even more opportunity for a cursed item to be created.
Ultimately, this topic's been talked to death; it needs to be officially clarified. That's all there is to it.
I took that section into consideration already. The text never claims the +5 is intended to replace the missing requirement:
PFGRD wrote:
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
I consider the comments about the requisite feat and the spell for spell-completion and spell-triggering items being mandatory to indicate that a crafter must personally meet these requirements, and nothing more. Equally important, though, is the statement that appears earlier in the paragraph:
PFGRD wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
I find your argument unconvincing. The reference to allowing access through another magic item or spellcaster, the way I read it, would allow the prerequisite to be met without raising the task DC by 5. By extension, if we were to still treat all prerequisite as mandatory requirements, there's no way to even invoke the +5 DC rule. All prerequisites are present, period.
I think your interpretation requires a further leap of logic not expressly in the rules, one that assumes a difference between the prerequisites met by the creator and by an assistant, than mine. That would have Ockham deciding in favor of mine.
I find your argument unconvincing.
And I find yours to be as well. As I said, it needs clarified.
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Does anyone interpret the +5 to DC rule if not meeting a prerequisite to mean that if you meet all prerequisites other than the caster level, you add +5 to the DC for every level under the caster level you are?
ie: You're a 10th level caster, trying to create a CL 13 item. You meet all other prerequisites, but since you don't meet the CL prerequisite, you add 15 to the DC - +5 for every caster level you don't possess.
For some this may sound insane, but its what the GM has ruled in one of my games based upon his interpretation of the crafting rules. Opinions and clarification would be very helpful. Thanks.
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Does anyone interpret the +5 to DC rule if not meeting a prerequisite to mean that if you meet all prerequisites other than the caster level, you add +5 to the DC for every level under the caster level you are?
For some this may sound insane, but its what the GM has ruled in one of my games based upon his interpretation of the crafting rules. Opinions and clarification would be very helpful. Thanks.
Well, first of all, it's open to some interpretation, and that's the DM's job. So, that's the rule in his campaign.
Having said that, ...
I wouldn't rule the same way, myself. I'd consider "lacking caster level" to be a single prerequisite, imposing a single +5 to the DC. If an item asks for a 16th-Level caster, the difference between a 7th-Level Wizard and a 12th-Level Wizard trying to create the item is already incorporated into the skill roll (the higher level character probably has more skill ranks, possibly a higher base stat, and perhaps another feat or two contributing to the roll).
If you scroll up, though, you'll see a vigorous debate as to whether a 10th-Level Sorcerer can even attempt to fashion an item requiring a 13th-Level creator.
Seriously.. this needs to be clarified by Bulmahn. I see both interpretations, but the language is not clear.
No one should be opposed to the asking for a definitive response, especially if they believe they are correct.
As Monte Cook said on his site about 3e item creation, the caster level is never a requirement, unless it specifically notes it after the word "pre-requisites". The listed CL is only ever the average caster-level of a generic item of that type.