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I have a question about the fly spell. The spell says it grants the ability to fly with good maneuverability and also a bonus to half caster level to Fly checks. Now, the maneuverability usually grants a modifier to Fly checks too, which in the case of good maneuverability is +4.
So, does this mean the fly spell grants a total bonus to Fly checks of +4 plus half caster level, or does the level-dependent bonus replace the default bonus from maneuverability, even though it might be lower at low levels?
It's 4 + 1/2 level
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During last night's game, an interesting question came up regarding something very similar to this.
If a witch with the Flight hex is using flight and activates winged boots, would the effective boosts to her Fly skill check (+4 for the boots, 1/2 level for the hex) stack, or would they overlap? Or would it, as I suspect, be entirely redundant to have both the hex and the boots activated at the same time?
You do not get both bonuses.
A creature with a natural fly speed receives a
bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its
maneuverability
If you have wings, this'd count. What I'm not sure it counts for: natural supernatural flight as per genies, SLA fly abilities.
Spell flight doesn't give you the +4 as it's not your natural flight ability.
During last night's game, an interesting question came up regarding something very similar to this.
If a witch with the Flight hex is using flight and activates winged boots, would the effective boosts to her Fly skill check (+4 for the boots, 1/2 level for the hex) stack, or would they overlap? Or would it, as I suspect, be entirely redundant to have both the hex and the boots activated at the same time?
Rules=blah,
But since the Witch's flight hex is fluffed as their becoming "lighter", and the boots are for rocketing around people of normal weight, I would have gone straight ACME with this one.
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Spell flight doesn't give you the +4 as it's not your natural flight ability.
I prefer to go by the text of the spell as "specific over general".
Otherwise, there's no reason to even mention that it grants you "good maneuverability".
But, this has been hashed over back and forth.
Run it as you like at your tables.
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I would rule that the fly spell would not provide the +4 bonus for providing good manueverability, only the 1/2 spell level bonus. In the description below, the skill specifically states "creatures with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty)". I would allow the caster with the spell to treat the skill as a class skill but no manueverability bonus/penalty.
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.
My $.02 :)
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Yes, we know that.
So, why does the fly spell provide 'good' maneuverability? What does that actually mean? How would the spell be different if instead it said 'poor' maneuverability, or 'perfect' maneuverability?
If your answer is that there would be no difference, then something seems a bit off.
Valid point... I was indicating how I would rule for the fly spell itself, thus almost ignoring the "good manueverability" part of the description. IMHO, someone with a spell would not manuever as well as someone who has been flying since birth. Though I would have reconsider my opinion if I were ever to run Pathfinder Society. :)
Paizo really should look at this spell again for an FAQ.
The problem people are running into is assuming that everything written in the CRB is as it's intended to be. Compare PF overland flight with 3.5 overland flight, and PF fly with 3.5 fly. You'll notice for overland flight, the mention of "Average maneuverability" is scrubbed, leaving you with only the half CL bonus. It was required since 3.5 didn't have the fly skill, and everything was based on your maneuverability rating. However, from 3.5 to PF for fly, the only change to the text of the addition of the clause saying you get a bonus to your fly skill. I am of the opinion that while average maneuverability was successfully removed from overland flight, the good maneuverability of fly was left in by mistake.
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The problem people are running into is assuming that everything written in the CRB is as it's intended to be. Compare PF overland flight with 3.5 overland flight, and PF fly with 3.5 fly. You'll notice for overland flight, the mention of "Average maneuverability" is scrubbed, leaving you with only the half CL bonus. It was required since 3.5 didn't have the fly skill, and everything was based on your maneuverability rating. However, from 3.5 to PF for fly, the only change to the text of the addition of the clause saying you get a bonus to your fly skill. I am of the opinion that while average maneuverability was successfully removed from overland flight, the good maneuverability of fly was left in by mistake.
The argument that it was intentional is just as valid. There is not a single thing outside of 'it supports my argument' that one side or the other is more right about this - which makes it a perfect FAQ target - FAQ it and move on.
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http://www.pathfinder-srd.nl/wiki/Table:Maneuverability
As far as I can tell, that's a 3.5 chart that someone online was providing as a reference for use with Pathfinder, since no such chart made it into the CRB.
Notice the date it was created - just shortly after Pathfinder was established as a separate rule set.
Nothing. Yes, because everything in the spell is explicitly spelled out, if good maneuverability means something it either would say so in the spell or in some kind of universal set of rules for how maneuverability and flight work. The only set of rules for how maneuverability and flight work only cover "natural fly speed". There is no rule telling you how maneuverability and not natural flight work.Well, let's see. The fly spell gives you 'good' maneuverability. So, what would your common sense tell you to use for the modifier associated with the 'good' maneuverability provided by the spell?
Is there any particular reason not to assume that the 'good' maneuverability specifically written in the fly spell RAW is different than the 'good' maneuverability listed for creatures with a natural fly speed?
Again, common sense is not against the rules, and there's nothing that would indicate that the 'good' maneuverability in the Fly spell is a meaningless phrase.
Absolutely not true. If it were, the devs would never have stressed that you need to apply common sense to RAW. If everything was 'spelled out', you wouldn't need to.
Your argument rests on the assumption that the explicitly spelled out 'good' maneuverability in the fly spell is meaningless.
Common sense says otherwise.
The fly spell says it gives good maneuverability.
The fly skill says creatures with natural flight get bonuses based on their maneuverability.
I am not aware of any general reference for maneuverability effects besides the skill reference which is only for natural flight and says nothing for non-natural flight.
Interpreting the fly spell as unnatural and not giving a maneuverability bonus means that the maneuverability granted by the spell exists but has no effect.
Interpreting the spell as giving the maneuverability bonus means there would be an unwritten rule giving maneuverability bonuses to anything with a listed maneuverability class and the listing of natural in the skill description is superfluous and misleading.
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New FAQ!
Flight and Magical Flight: Can a paralyzed or stunned creature keep flying with magical flight? Does a creature with magical flight not apply bonuses or penalties to Fly checks because it doesn’t have a “natural” fly speed? Does flying make a creature immune to being flat-footed?
No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed. If they didn’t apply to creatures that gained flight artificially or through magic, then those maneuverabilities (like the listed good maneuverability for the fly spell) would have no game effect. Finally, the statement “You are not considered flat-footed while flying” means that flying (unlike balancing using Acrobatics or climbing) doesn’t automatically make you flat-footed or force you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC; it doesn’t mean that flying makes you immune to being caught flat-footed.