Of all the issues discussed, this is the one I want to address the most. In the current system, if the party finds an item, they can use the item for the remainder of the scenario. At the end of the scenario, however, that item is automatically sold and the gold is split and the PCs then get their "loot" in gold to spend on whatever they like. Your assumption that at higher levels "authors can give their NPC's immensely powerful magic items which they don't have to worry about the characters acquiring, because the characters will never be able to afford them" is flawed because (1) all of the scenarios are developed by me, regardless of author, and I'll remove anything above-tier power-wise, and (2) because I have a complete system built out that tells me exactly at what level the gold being handed out should be by tier and sub-tier for the life of a Pathfinder Society character. Your example above simply will not happen. In fact, in most cases, I find that once development is over, the NPCs have either just the right amount of gear they're supposed to have, or have just under the right amount of gear they're supposed to have. In no instance have I...
Let's talk high-level, though. You give a bad guy a +8 weapon (worth 128,000gp). At the end of the adventure, the item is sold and the gold distributed. Bob the Fighter gets 12,800gp. If he wants the sword, he has to come up with 115,200gp. Does this mean he only gets one item every ten adventures? That doesn't seem terribly balanced to me.
Essentially, by giving characters only half the value of the items they find, you short-change them to the point of crippling them at higher levels. A 20th level character is supposed to be worth 768,000gp, but your system will barely get them half that once the character reaches that point.
Yes, I know there's a level cap, but the point remains the same: by forcing characters to purchase items with the gold they get from selling those items, you are giving them about half the treasure they should be receiving as well as waving items in front of their face that they in all likelihood would not be able to afford when they see those items.
I'm not sure how you're calculating your math exactly, but it doesn't match my wealth spreadsheet at all. Most players, assuming they don't all die multiple times, should be worth what they're supposed to for their level at each level of their progression. Whether that's level 3, level 9, or the cap at level 12, every player is roughly worth what they're supposed to be gear-wise.
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I think limited experience with PFS, and a history that assumes something more than what the rules seek to offer, is contributing to a misconception about the Pathfinder Society. I hope the OP will stay awhile and take the time to give it a chance. I think he will find the benefits well worth the effort, and I would like to take the opportunity to say hello and welcome to the PFS.
Part of this misconception, IMHO, is coming with big items skewing the analysis. To afford a +8 sword, a 12th level character would need to spend all gold earned from beginning to end to buy it. A 17th level character could afford such a weapon at a roughly 25% of all treasure earned. If you add in the OP's complaint of selling treasure at half cost, then even a 17th level character would be hard pressed to afford the +8 weapon.
The reality is, at least from my experience, YMMV, that most characters end up with a big ticket item in the roughly 25 to 30% of character wealth range. So, at the PFS 12th level cap, a player could conceivably end up with a +4 weapon, +4 armor, a few +2 attribute augmenting items, and a last few other bits and baubles, give or take.
I believe Josh has stated the scenarios will be geared towards level appropriate items, and the treasure earned will target this gold point value as well. If so, I think much of what the OP views as "lost" treasure value will be far less significant as more "loot" overall will be available to sell at half cost to fill the coffers. Further, the use of Faction Points to purchase favors and items for player use will defer some of this "loss" in favor of game flavor and personal player enhancement.
Having ended Season 0 play, I had an 8th level Cleric perhaps only slightly below the average for character wealth, and I really enjoyed the ride. Of course, I should point out I play mostly in a home game with family, and tend to spend more on healing and party buffing expendibles than most, thusly leaving the group to buy heavier gear for those times reason fails and steel is needed.
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It seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to me, Sanakht. What, in specific, did you find unsatisfactory?Question is: What isn't unsatisfactory?
1) The Realms aren't the Realms. They nuked them and what they call The Realms is more akin to Dragonlance. Points of Light? WTF?
2) Character "customization". Non-existant. A halfling sword-and-board is the same as a dwarf sword-and-board is the same as a human sword-and-board is the same as a half-orc sword-and-board. They'll have the exact same feat path, the exact same powers. The only difference? Race and MAYBE skills. If you're lucky.
3) The you-don't-die-if-you're-stupid rule. You still get rewarded. And you don't "die". Which brings me to:
4) Character death is nigh impossible even without a cleric. And believe me, I've tried to kill my character. I failed. Miserably.
5) Combat. Either really, really short or really, really long. Shortest combat: 3 rounds. Longest combat: just over 2 hours. (In a non-LFR mod, we've had combats last up to 5 hours AS WRITTEN.)
6) And the "prize packages" is simply one of the DUMBEST things I've ever heard of. WTF? And it's level dependent? A double shot of WTF?I much prefer the way that PFS handles loots and ARs instead of the boatload of fail that is LFR.
1) They have stated their reason for the 100 year time jump, and the reason for the other changes. In the old Realms, it would be difficult, even in a home game, to let a player in the Realms feel like he is either contributing, or suspend disbelief as to why HE was the one doing this instead of one of the all-too-many legendary-but-active epic types.
2) Gotta say that you are incredibly incorrect in this. There are 4 "flavors" of fighter, not to mention different classes which can qualify as "sword-and-board", and those 4 flavors themselves can go in widely different ways depending feats, weapon, armor, shield, and many other things.
3) Maybe you should talk with your GMs? I just did a TPK on a party, in LFR, a couple of weeks ago. And I had a player in a TPK, back during the Weekend in the Realms event last year. And I have seen other PCs die, and come close to killing individual PCs myself as a GM...
4) Again, I would point to your GMs, myself. A GM who hates to kill won't be able to kill PCs unless he is stuck with no alternative.
5) Monster hit points in 4th edition do have a scaling issue. Then again, so did monster hit points in 3.5. Main thing in 4th ed was the doing away of save-or-die effects, which could massively shorten combats.
6) I think you may misunderstand the bundles in LFR. IMO, they are a better way of handling treasure than was done in LG (and PFSOP). Nothing in LG irritated me more than handling a nice magical bow, that woyuld be perfect for my character, and then receiving an insignificant fraction of its value at the end of the module. In LG, and PFSOP, you receive 20% of 50% of the value of any item. At least, of any item that the writer felt should be included in the monetary rewards for the module. "You have to repair these items in order to get the 300 gp that they are worth, if not, no money for them." Not to mention having to find them, find that they have possible value, and spending the resources needed to give them that value, which might cost nmore than they give back. Not fun.
In LFR, you have one free magic item slot per level, which I think is what you mean by the level-based part of your comment. I would hope so, but don't understand your poroblem with that. You really want that PC who played low APL to have more magic items, one per module played, than that same PC who played all modules at high APL, and gained more XP per module so he played less modules?
Items usable by PC in LFR are limited to those that are not more than your PC's level +4. Something like this rule is needed, actually, in order to keep some high-powered item from breaking the game. PFSOP does this by the gold cap method, otherwise you could save all your monwey for X mods, and buy that +5 weapon when it is significantly too powerful for the APL. YMMV. Different ways of handling the same problem, overpowered items in the PC's hands.
It also avoids the issues, discussed in various threads on these and the WotC boards, regarding the old LC (and early LG) certs. Certs can be bad, if not handled carefully by the players and GMs. One PC could, under some circumstances, wind up with all the booty from a module, or with a lot more of the stuff than other PCs. Certs are, inherently, unfair. LFR's item bundles, allowing all PCs the possibility of taking item X, while somewhat breaking of disbelief, is a fair way of avoiding the equally disbelief-breaking way that PFSOP handles it, of just selling off everything, no matter how well an item would suit PC Y, and just splitting the gold.
Gotta say that ARs had their purpose, but that they have issues, and that the Chronicles share those issues. A calculator is your friend, but that is true of any system that has calculations inherent in it. And that having a binder per PC, in LG and PFSOP, is one of the drawbacks of the AR/Chronicle system.
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Having ended Season 0 play, I had an 8th level Cleric perhaps only slightly below the average for character wealth, and I really enjoyed the ride. Of course, I should point out I play mostly in a home game with family, and tend to spend more on healing and party buffing expendibles than most, thusly leaving the group to buy heavier gear for those times reason fails and...
I agree with your point of view on item access so far.
I also ended Season 0 at 8th level (Ranger). This past weekend was my first adventuring with the Season 1 build and I have to say everyone at the table had very strong characters based on the conversion. So I really don't think item access and wealth are a concern, at least at 8th level.
And based on the way item access works in PFS I don't see it being a problem as I level through to 12. In fact, I'm pretty sure by the time I get to 9th level I can afford to upgrade to a +3 type of weapon which should serve me well on the way to level 12.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Sanakht Inaros, I apologize for opening the door to a wide-ranging invective that really doesn't belong in this thread. I wasn't specific enough in my prompt to you, and you have my regrets.
I wanted to talk about, specifically, the "packets" idea of loot distribution used in Living Forgotten Realms. You've said you don't like it. You've called it "asinine". But you haven't explained *why* you don't think it's a good idea. (At least, a better idea than PFS's requirement that the party sells all the magical loot for half price.)
I've been talking to some folks over the last week about the good and bad aspects of certificates (a la Living Arcanis), and I'm coming to see one of the down-sides: they're easily gamed by idjits.
Idjit's Guide to Cert Abuse
1) Whip up a set of 5 disposable 1st-Level characters.
2) Play an adventure with one real character and the five disposables.
3) Give the real character all the items.
4) Repeat.
The packets technique seems to solve this (as does the PFS system).
--+--+--
By the way, a question for everyone: in PFS, what happens to the money earned by characters who don't survive the adventure? If there's only one survivor, what's the justification for why she doesn't keep everybody's share of the loot?
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By the way, a question for everyone: in PFS, what happens to the money earned by characters who don't survive the adventure? If there's only one survivor, what's the justification for why she doesn't keep everybody's share of the loot?
I would assume it is just a game balance issue. The gold cap works independently from the number of players at the table, otherwise people would have different a different gold cap depending on the number of players at the table.
If you distrubuted a total amount amongst players left at the end of the adventure it would get ugly.
Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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Having played LA and LG, I enjoyed the cert system. Yes, you can end up with all the goodies at the end of a mod. But there will be times when you will only end up with the gold. There were a couple times where I ended up with the majority of the goodies because I was a cleric of Larissa. But there were also times when I ended up with a buttload of gold and no items. At marketplaces, my character would use the gold to upgrade his magical items. And a lot of times, I ended up with far more gold in sessions I got nothing the I did when i got the majority of magic items.
The chronicles/AR system may have its flaws, but to sit there and restrict characters to one bundle per level is just downright asinine.
Unfortunately, those systems that are most fair and equitable can be the most artificial, while straightforward systems like certs can be abused. While I liked some aspects of the cert system, I've been at a couple of tables where some juvenile jackass demanded the best items, forced a "roll off", then turned the item in for gold. That sort of thing left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Those who didn't play Living Arcanis at conventions often missed out on the opportunity to attend marketplaces. Some of my friends only played in home games and couldn't use their gold to buy magic items as you mentioned.
I haven't seen any one perfect solution to the problem of fairly dividing treasure. The Living Realms solution seems to give characters a reasonable variety of treasure items without overloading them with magic.
The Pathfinder Society's system also gives most characters the correct amount of treasure for their level, but people compare their gains to those found in home games, where it is common for some characters to find treasure not matched for their level. In many home games, a few characters find magic weapons, armor, wands, or other potent magic while still first level, long before such items fall in the expected wealth level.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Just clearing that up (I hope PFS does great and people have a blast as I have a lot of personal friends who have put a lot of work into it).
I would like to say that, as an RPGA member and former staffer, this feeling is entirely mutual. Jason, Lisa, and I all have multiple decades of membership in that organization, and nothing but respect and admiration for them. We absolutely wish them the best.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Yeah, I think it sounds like an interesting solution for OP.
I would absolutely HATE it in a normal campaign, but I can see the appeal.
Do they get little certificates with their chosen bundle, or is it simply written in a 1-20 list on the character sheet or something?
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It's a tradeoff. Your choice is
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or2) Have the +5 sword sold for half value, but allow every player the option of purchasing a very similar looking +5 sword. There's no arguing and there's no character imbalance. Similarly, since everyone only gets half price, where's the problem? What's the party losing value relative to?
I've never understood the logic of making the PCs sell magic items for the cost of forging them. If you were selling a magic sword, how would the buyer know if you made it or not? Even if he could tell, if he could also tell that it was magic, why would he care? Why would the seller settle for less than the price he would pay to buy it, if he were buying instead of selling? It's as if NPCs have the ability to look at characters and automatically and perfectly tell if they're PC or NPC. (Or maybe PCs just have cooties.) It's always made more sense to think of magic items as very expensive trade goods or art objects, were this half off logic doesn't apply.
How would the system break if we kept the chronicle mechanic and assumed magic items sold for what they sell for, rather than selling for the material cost? It would increase the value of the max gold lines assuming the amount of treasure per scenario was held constant, but other consequences are less clear to me.
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Yeah, I think it sounds like an interesting solution for OP.
I would absolutely HATE it in a normal campaign, but I can see the appeal.
Do they get little certificates with their chosen bundle, or is it simply written in a 1-20 list on the character sheet or something?
Assuming (yeah, I know) that you are referring to the LFR found item solution to after-module magic item availability, there is a form, with lines numbered 1-30 (4ED&D is built as a 30 level game, now), for entering your found items on.
The same form is usually used to track the free retraining every level in 4th Ed. LFR, as well.
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I have to wonder about people who want to make it easier to get away with cheating and bullying their way into getting the best items. It really doesn't matter how much you try to rationalize your opinion, I think most of the PFS players/staff can see through this sophism.
Oh yes, I've been told I have all the tact of a sledgehammer.
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I think some of the player are missing that there character are working for the Pathfinder Society. the guys who work for Exon don't get to keep the oil they find. the guys who work for a company what dig up gold or diamonds most scrutiny don't. a few players still see they game as old D&D I keep what I kill because I'm my own boss and work for me. the fact that getting played for your finds, will keep most character gp in the same ball park, is a happy bones.
as fare as the PA go, " yes we do have ONE of thou's in the vault.... NO you may not have it, some one more importent than you has need of it...I don't care how much gold you have come back when you are more impotent." lol or " just because you hung up ONE poster for me, you really thing I'm going to just give you a 750 gp wand. do me a few more favors and we'll talk about it."
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think some of the player are missing that their characters are working for the Pathfinder Society. The guys who work for Exxon don't get to keep the oil they find.
No, but those guys do get paid by the company.
Murdoc, pathfinders normally get to keep their findings, as usual in D&D, but there seems to be a mutual agreement to pool all the treasures found, sell the valuable magic stuff, and divvy it all up equally. (Given the assumption that the "team" of PCs is ad hoc, that seems reasonable.)
Here's what I find most strange: there's no analog to Faction Prestige for the Pathfinder Society itself. One group can succeed brilliantly in adventure after adventure. Another can simply fail to achieve the venture-captains' missions. There are no rewards, no penalties, no ramifications.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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For example, if you buy a Cure Light Wounds potion, that's part of your current value. If you then use it, it does not and you're behind the curve.
There is a common solution to this problem. The one I use. I never (as a player) buy a consumable under any circumstances. I've never bought a CLW potion, any potion, any scroll (except to copy into a spellbook), any wand, any staff, etc. I also sell every consumable I acquire in a game (even CLW potions.) Just my rules.
If your calculations are, essentially, to only hand out the amount of gold that the table says characters SHOULD have when created at that level, PCs are going to fall behind on equipment noticeably by the early teens. If you're not, I'd love to know what numbers you are using (though I guess I can understand where you might not want to publish that.)
My gear progression table includes padding for a fair amount of one-shot consumables like potions and scrolls. Adding the ability for PCs to buy these items using their Prestige Award instead of gold was another layer of padding I added on top. Folks should find, generally speaking, that once they reach the level cap they should be pretty close to being worth what they're supposed to. I can't account for multiple deaths or someone who spends all of their wealth on consumables, but for most players the system works.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Idjit's Guide to Cert Abuse
1) Whip up a set of 5 disposable 1st-Level characters.
...If there's only one survivor, what's the justification for why she doesn't keep everybody's share of the loot?
Does that even work in LFR? I'm pretty sure that isn't legal (and a GM that looks into it even modestly would detect you have too much gear for your level? No?
As for the second, that one survivor should only get his share. He should be burying the death with their loot. Also, you can't just keep it (the loot) for balance/fairness/etc reasons. It is also prohibited in the PFS guide and the GM could also detect it since you would have more item value than your gold could afford.
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Idjit's Guide to Cert Abuse
1) Whip up a set of 5 disposable 1st-Level characters.
...If there's only one survivor, what's the justification for why she doesn't keep everybody's share of the loot?
Does that even work in LFR? I'm pretty sure that isn't legal (and a GM that looks into it even modestly would detect you have too much gear for your level? No?
As for the second, that one survivor should only get his share. He should be burying the death with their loot. Also, you can't just keep it (the loot) for balance/fairness/etc reasons. It is also prohibited in the PFS guide and the GM could also detect it since you would have more item value than your gold could afford.
I'm a Herald Level LFR Judge. Let me tell you how it works.
You complete the module, and at the end you get X experience, and Y gold.
Then you get the packets. You choose ONE packet, which you get to keep, the rest disappear, never to be seen again. Multiple players can choose the same packet, but only one packet can be taken per player. If the packet is a magic item that is NOT a ritual scroll or ritual book (the common way of abusing the extra gold, is to determine if selling the ritual book for 20% is more than taking more gold BTW. This is perfectly legal by LFR rules too.) counts against the one magic item per level policy. If you have taken your magic item for the level, you cannot gain another magic item beyond a ritual scroll or book, until you level again.
If you choose to NOT take the magic items available, you can take a potion + gold, or just more gold.
These are recorded on a record sheet, and at any time a LFR judge can audit characters to make sure they are not beyond their means.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm a Herald Level LFR Judge. Let me tell you how it works.Idjit's Guide to Cert Abuse
1) Whip up a set of 5 disposable 1st-Level characters.
So am I (a Herald LFR GM) and I have ran 50+ LFR games (which I stopped doing when 3.p came out.)
You still haven't explained to me how it can be legal to have 4 of the "fake" PC's give their gold to one PC and it be LFR legal.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Idjit's Guide to Cert Abuse
1) Whip up a set of 5 disposable 1st-Level characters.
...
Does that even work in LFR?
James, I wasn't discussing Living Forgotten Realms. I was referencing games like Living Arcanis or the Living campaigns of several years ago, where characters had realistic distribution via item certificates.
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I'm a Herald Level LFR Judge. Let me tell you how it works.Idjit's Guide to Cert Abuse
1) Whip up a set of 5 disposable 1st-Level characters.So am I (a Herald LFR GM) and I have ran 50+ LFR games (which I stopped doing when 3.p came out.)
You still haven't explained to me how it can be legal to have 4 of the "fake" PC's give their gold to one PC and it be LFR legal.
They cannot. Per the LFR rules, you cannot give items or money from one PC to another. You can lend an item to another PC for the course of the current adventure/module, but they cannot keep it afterward.
Very similar to the old LG rules, that way.
Now, as to the ritual book/scroll selling, it is a tad broken, but that was accidental, and only a couple of them slipped by. The main one is a ritual scroll of the 8th level (680 gp value) that can be found in an H1 module, so that, at 4th level (and not before), your character can sell it for 50%, or 340 gp.
As to the found item limit, that simulates the general suggestion for campaigns of the GM giving out magic items to a party equal to 4 items for a party of 5 each level, which actually means that an LFR party can be ahead of the curve.
Also, that one item per level limit ONLY applies to the found items, NOT (repeat: NOT) to magic items in general. An LFR PC can buy as many other magic items, at any time, as he can afford.
The main benefit of the bundles is to allow the charcter to find an item of a level he cannot buy yet. Very similar, actually, to the items appearing on the PFS Chronicle, other than being given to the PC as a reward for either killing an enemy who had possession of it, or being offered it as a reward for successfully completing a job for an NPC.
Again, the main difference is that LFR expects PCs to have a certain number of items above their level, and the actual gold rewarded is lower than it would be if the items were sold and split, like in PFSOP.
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Yeah, I think it sounds like an interesting solution for OP.
I would absolutely HATE it in a normal campaign, but I can see the appeal.
Do they get little certificates with their chosen bundle, or is it simply written in a 1-20 list on the character sheet or something?
I have not played LFR but I have participated in quite a few PFS scenarios and I have to say that the Season 1 scenario Chronicles are a little disappointing - often at the lower tiers there are no items listed as all of these items could be purchased normally. Its like getting to Christmas morning and someone says, "Here's twenty bucks. Buy yourself something." :-) Personally, I like finding the trinkets.
I agree that the bundle idea from LFR sounds interesting. It simulates splitting up the loot while short circuiting the problem of bullying. And you can look back at your decisions and see how each of these branching points has helped you build your character.
Also, I would like to put my 2 cents in about pushy players. While I mostly like gamers, I have found a vocal minority to be pushy, rude and demanding. I am not invested enough in the game to start a RL conflict with someone over imaginary loot. Thus, I would be the person who would get the short end of the stick in a "cert" system. Also, I have gotten several friends, my kids and my wife to start playing PFS. The non-conflict item distribution is very popular with them as they avoid the intimidation problems that goes along with being a noob.
I have not played LFR but I have participated in quite a few PFS scenarios and I have to say that the Season 1 scenario Chronicles are a little disappointing - often at the lower tiers there are no items listed as all of these items could be purchased normally.
To be completely fair, a quick perusal of the six released scenarios for season 1 (so far) shows that #29 had no additional items for the first two tiers, #30 had no additional items for the middle tier, and the other four scenarios had something available for every tier (#35 and #36 also have something available at every tier). For #29 and #30, the lack of new items at those lower tiers has more to do with the nature of those adventures and nothing at all to do with an active choice to reduce the number of items you can get from your chronicle sheets.
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To be completely fair, a quick perusal of the six released scenarios for season 1 (so far) shows that #29 had no additional items for the first two tiers, #30 had no additional items for the middle tier, and the other four scenarios had something available for every tier (#35 and #36 also have something available at every tier). For #29 and #30, the lack of new items at those lower tiers has more to do with the nature of those adventures and nothing at all to do with an active choice to reduce the number of items you can get from your chronicle sheets.
yeah, but it does kinda stink if you did 29 at one of the 1st two tiers and then 30 at the middle tier... it gives you 2 'dead' scenarios that you only have access to items from one sheet (either the sheet before 29 or after 30). I think that this is more pronounced because they are part one and two in a story, so people are more likely to try to play them back to back, where the other ones are more spread out.
True, but the way those scenarios were written (they had to serve one really large master: introduce a bunch of new stuff from the RPG) just didn't provide the opportunity to place new stuff--especially 29. We try to avoid that, and I think out of 36 scenarios there have been exactly three empty tier slots for accessible gear.
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David, I think a lot of folk's impressions are guided by the room size and the time of day that they pop in. I dream of a day when folks can look into a room as large as the Sagamore, see Pathfinder Society filling "only" half of the tables, and complain that the turn out seems down. :-) Great to see you cruising by the Paizo boards--wish I'd had time to stop by and say hi at Gen Con.Was nice spending some time talking at Origins because we both know that just doesn't happen at Gencon. I had my family with me this year as well which made any minor free time I had disappear even faster.
We're an easy target I know that. Like you said hopefully PFS does great and you can join us in the 'easy' target category. You can't have my ballroom though. It's super sweet and I have pics of Gencon staffers to guarantee me keeping it forever.
No guarantees are forever. Can't wait for PFS in the Sagamore!
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David, I think a lot of folk's impressions are guided by the room size and the time of day that they pop in. I dream of a day when folks can look into a room as large as the Sagamore, see Pathfinder Society filling "only" half of the tables, and complain that the turn out seems down. :-) Great to see you cruising by the Paizo boards--wish I'd had time to stop by and say hi at Gen Con.Was nice spending some time talking at Origins because we both know that just doesn't happen at Gencon. I had my family with me this year as well which made any minor free time I had disappear even faster.
We're an easy target I know that. Like you said hopefully PFS does great and you can join us in the 'easy' target category. You can't have my ballroom though. It's super sweet and I have pics of Gencon staffers to guarantee me keeping it forever.
Can't wait to see nearly 1,000 nerds all in one room playing Pathfinder. See you all Thursday!
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I think Joe was just pointing out that the times, they are a-changin'. The original topic is irrelevant.
I called it four years ago. I know I said Wabash, but I meant Sagamore. Also, I know I my character sheet says I have blue eyes, but I really meant to write 'gray'.