I totally disagree.
The Sorcerer has plenty enough spells, already. What he lacks is skill points. That's his fundamental weakness (I've pointed this out before). The human sorcerer favored class ability further aggravates this problem.
Pathfinder's "you can't have more skill ranks than levels" kind of equalizes all those skill points. A "7" in Spellcraft with a 3 for trained and a 3 for CHA still equals 13 for Spellcraft at 7th level. You can take a feat for more points, but you're not going to be pumping all your skill points into one skill.
I find 6 to 8 skill points a level (+1 for being human, +1 for favored class) to be quite adequate.
I don't know what to say to you all if you really think that's not the very best favored class option out there, by far.
I think that it is too. If it were available I wouldn't use any other option, it's way better than a hit point or a skill point. I also think the sorcerer needed it. Without it, they didn't have enough options.
I see what you're saying, but: doesn't that 7th level wizard with 4 3rds and 2 4th still have more control over what spells he knows / more spells known than the sorcerer with 2 and 0, respectively?
Yeah, I suppose you have a good argument there, which is why I like the human sorcerer favored class option.
I totally disagree.
The Sorcerer has plenty enough spells, already. What he lacks is skill points. That's his fundamental weakness (I've pointed this out before). The human sorcerer favored class ability further aggravates this problem.
Once again, I can't take you seriously.
I can take a spell, every level, that pretty much removes the need for a skill you only get to put one point into every level.
Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc.
Need to Jump (acrobatics)? Get the spell.
Need to intimidate? Get Fear.
I don't know what one point of skill is better than another choice of spell at the highest I can cast. There's none.
I'm the one having trouble taking -you- seriously.
"Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc."
Yeah, right. Tell me what you're going to do when you've got a gang of people to use Diplomacy against at the same time? Are you going to wait until you can cast Mass Charm? "Hey, guys, just hold off a bunch more levels and I'll come back - okay?" As for eagle's splendor being a replacement for Diplomacy, you should know that eagle's splendor 1.) spends a round just to get the spell into play and 2.) gives only +2 to your Diplomacy roll.
The fact is, there are a lot of things you can do with skills which have no spell replacement -at all- and there are many which don't have spell replacements until quite high in level.
Can you even use diplomacy against several people at once, and even so it takes a certain amount of time to change their feelings towards you. It only takes 1 round to cast charm, and you don't have to charm all of them. You only need to charm the leader of the group. Now if you have a lot of time then it is most likely a social setting so you will be able to charm people. I would not suggest doing it in from of the other guest though.
I think that there would be times to learn more spells, and time to take the skill point. It really depends on what that extra spell is bringing to the table, and at what level the campaign will end at.
PS: I do think the spell is worth more than 1 skill point most of the time.
"Whose that...Can you even use diplomacy against several people at once, and even so it takes a certain amount of time to change their feelings towards you. It only takes 1 round to cast charm, and you don't have to charm all of them. You only need to charm the leader of the group. Now if you have a lot of time then it is most likely a social setting so you will be able to charm people. I would not suggest doing it in from of the other guest though.I totally disagree.
The Sorcerer has plenty enough spells, already. What he lacks is skill points. That's his fundamental weakness (I've pointed this out before). The human sorcerer favored class ability further aggravates this problem.
Once again, I can't take you seriously.
I can take a spell, every level, that pretty much removes the need for a skill you only get to put one point into every level.
Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc.
Need to Jump (acrobatics)? Get the spell.
Need to intimidate? Get Fear.
I don't know what one point of skill is better than another choice of spell at the highest I can cast. There's none.
I'm the one having trouble taking -you- seriously.
"Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc."
Yeah, right. Tell me what you're going to do when you've got a gang of people to use Diplomacy against at the same time? Are you going to wait until you can cast Mass Charm? "Hey, guys, just hold off a bunch more levels and I'll come back - okay?" As for eagle's splendor being a replacement for Diplomacy, you should know that eagle's splendor 1.) spends a round just to get the spell into play and 2.) gives only +2 to your Diplomacy roll.
The fact is, there are a lot of things you can do with skills which have no spell replacement -at all- and there are many which don't have spell replacements until quite high in level.
I will repeat:
I would not suggest doing it in from of the other guest though.
edit:from should have been "front"
...Can you even use diplomacy against several people at once, and even so it takes a certain amount of time to change their feelings towards you. It only takes 1 round to cast charm, and you don't have to charm all of them. You only need to charm the leader of the group. Now if you have a lot of time then it is most likely a social setting so you will be able to charm people. I would not suggest doing it in from ofI totally disagree.
The Sorcerer has plenty enough spells, already. What he lacks is skill points. That's his fundamental weakness (I've pointed this out before). The human sorcerer favored class ability further aggravates this problem.
Once again, I can't take you seriously.
I can take a spell, every level, that pretty much removes the need for a skill you only get to put one point into every level.
Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc.
Need to Jump (acrobatics)? Get the spell.
Need to intimidate? Get Fear.
I don't know what one point of skill is better than another choice of spell at the highest I can cast. There's none.
I'm the one having trouble taking -you- seriously.
"Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc."
Yeah, right. Tell me what you're going to do when you've got a gang of people to use Diplomacy against at the same time? Are you going to wait until you can cast Mass Charm? "Hey, guys, just hold off a bunch more levels and I'll come back - okay?" As for eagle's splendor being a replacement for Diplomacy, you should know that eagle's splendor 1.) spends a round just to get the spell into play and 2.) gives only +2 to your Diplomacy roll.
The fact is, there are a lot of things you can do with skills which have no spell replacement -at all- and there are many which don't have spell replacements until quite high in level.
The chances of making a save against a SoD/SoS based caster are not very high, but if he does then he gets knocked out. Silence also means the voice does not go very far. Now I realize that the social event may require me to use skill, but it is often more efficient to gain control of the leader, than to try everyone because that is just more chances to fail.
The chances of making a save against a SoD/SoS based caster are not very high, but if he does then he gets knocked out. Silence also means the voice does not go very far. Now I realize that the social event may require me to use skill, but it is often more efficient to gain control of the leader, than to try everyone because that is just more chances to fail.You're assuming that there is a well-defined leader. You're also assuming that "he gets knocked out" has some sort of guarantee to it before he shouts an alarm.
I question both of those assumptions.
Most groups have a leader even if it is not obvious. If the group(very broad term) has a leadership council as opposed to one leader getting the ear of the most influential one is a good idea. Even in cases where all members have the same authority there are normally people who have more sway. The silence spell is put up before I try to take control of him. My backup plans normally have backup plans. If that does not work then running away, if necessary, is not something I am too proud to do if Murphy shows up.
PS:The same alarm could be set off if I try to sway him in public with a diplomacy check if he feels like I only want him for what he/she can do for me. At least in private(assuming I can pull it off) I only have to deal with one individual.
I don't think that's true. Casting a spell is -far- more likely to be considered an act of blatant aggression.
I have to agree with LT, here. No one is going to give you a hard time for trying to use Diplomacy on the mayor/village elder what have you, but trying to charm him definitely looks bad.
Skills are an important part of the game, and there are definitely skills that there is no spell equivalent of - like any Knowledge skill.
PS:The same alarm could be set off if I try to sway him in public with a diplomacy check if he feels like I only want him for what he/she can do for me. At least in private(assuming I can pull it off) I only have to deal with one individual.I don't think that's true. Casting a spell is -far- more likely to be considered an act of blatant aggression.
If does depend on what I am trying to get out of them, but the possibility is still there. This assumes my idea is basically a one way deal in my direction. Now if both of us could benefit I doubt they would be angry even if they did not agree with me.
You doubt that they would be angry if you cast charm person on them if they could benefit from it?If does depend on what I am trying to get out of them, but the possibility is still there. This assumes my idea is basically a one way deal in my direction. Now if both of us could benefit I doubt they would be angry even if they did not agree with me.PS:The same alarm could be set off if I try to sway him in public with a diplomacy check if he feels like I only want him for what he/she can do for me. At least in private(assuming I can pull it off) I only have to deal with one individual.I don't think that's true. Casting a spell is -far- more likely to be considered an act of blatant aggression.
My fault for not being clear. If I used diplomacy, and they just don't agree, but I am trying to make a legit(I am not trying to take advantage of them) offer they should not be upset.
Invisibility often is far more flexible then stealth. An invisible person can hide in the middle of a sunlight meadow, after all.
==Aelryinth
It's very clear that the human sorcerer favored class ability is WAYYYY overpowered. How'd they let that in?
After finally getting myself a copy of the APG and looking it over, I'd have to disagree. The human variant for all casting classes was an extra spell I believe, and I think that it has to be one level lower than the highest, although I may be wrong on that, which would mean the sorcerer is still a level behind in spell progression, and is still getting fewer spells known than a wizard each if he also takes the variant, which he likely is far more likely to give up a skill point for.
More often than not I'd choose the extra skill point for a +4 in a new class skill than spell, although at some levels it would give some much needed versitility.
Invisibility often is far more flexible then stealth. An invisible person can hide in the middle of a sunlight meadow, after all.
I didn't say that invisibility doesn't have advantages over stealth. I said that it isn't a replacement for stealth.
See Invisibility, True Seeing, etc. don't apply against stealth, for example. This is rather important considering that as the CR of creatures (and the class level of NPCs) increases, the likelihood of them being able to see invisible increases.
I'd like to add that in addition to MANY spells foiling an invisibility, the spell Invisibility shouldn't stop you from being heard. Also if you need to be sneaky quick, having someone looking for you hear you cast a spell will likely confirm that your still present.
I have to agree with LT, here. No one is going to give you a hard time for trying to use Diplomacy on the mayor/village elder what have you, but trying to charm him definitely looks bad.
Skills are an important part of the game, and there are definitely skills that there is no spell equivalent of - like any Knowledge skill.
One would have to wonder if it would be better or worse if there was someone nearby who was aware WHICH spell was being cast on the local lord mayor...
This is true, scrying and divinations will only get you so far in investigations without a few knowledges to put them into perspective.
|
... The silence spell is put up before I try to take control of him. My backup plans normally have backup plans. If that does not work then running away, if necessary, is not something I am too proud to do if Murphy shows up.
Ummm... no. Please don't actually try to do that.
If you cast Silence on or near someone in a diplomatic setting of any kind, they will feel very threatened. Not only does this mean that they get a sweet +5 on their save vs. your charm person, but it also means they get to attack you before you get the spell off, possibly interrupting it.And definitely turning the diplomatic situation into a non-diplomatic one.
Casting Silence (or any other spell, really) in a diplomatic situation is a good way to go into combat.
... The silence spell is put up before I try to take control of him. My backup plans normally have backup plans. If that does not work then running away, if necessary, is not something I am too proud to do if Murphy shows up.Ummm... no. Please don't actually try to do that.
If you cast Silence on or near someone in a diplomatic setting of any kind, they will feel very threatened. Not only does this mean that they get a sweet +5 on their save vs. your charm person, but it also means they get to attack you before you get the spell off, possibly interrupting it.And definitely turning the diplomatic situation into a non-diplomatic one.
Casting Silence (or any other spell, really) in a diplomatic situation is a good way to go into combat.
I guess I have to go into detail.
The plan is to get the guy alone. The cleric will cast silence outside of the room, but between the "leader" and the main floor. His sound will not get past the area of silence. The casting should not be seen by anyone. As for the charm spell it will only be seen by the "leader". Basically if the spell is used it would be used in a smart way. I am way too lazy to go into detail when everyone here is smart enough to figure out how to set it up.
The plan is to get the guy alone. The cleric will cast silence outside of the room, but between the "leader" and the main floor. His sound will not get past the area of silence. The casting should not be seen by anyone. As for the charm spell it will only be seen by the "leader". Basically if the spell is used it would be used in a smart way. I am way too lazy to go into detail when everyone here is smart enough to figure out how to set it up.
It seems needlessly complicated, using two characters and two different spells when one skill would accomplish the goal just fine.
It seems needlessly complicated, using two characters and two different spells when one skill would accomplish the goal just fine.
It IS needlessly complicated, but I believe the premise that started this was that he COULD get a diplomatic action accomplished with spell choices, not that it was the optimal or even preferred way to get it done.
If the group has a member that is good at Diplomacy, problem solved. If not, resort to a spell-based plan.
The Diplomacy issue seems a bit silly to argue on this topic now that I think of it. It is not a Class Skill for either Wiz or Sorc. Obv, Sorc are better due to Cha synergy, but they usually won't be better (at least in any significant sense) than a non-Tank Cleric, or a Paladin.
I'd like to set up some kind of test to figure out which of the myriad assertions and assumptions made on this thread are true. Here is my proposal.
To set up an Arcane Caster Olympics, sort of like the DPR Olympics AMIB did in another thread. I think it will be a little more difficult, because you are not trying to measure a single aspect of character, which he did very well.
Here are my premises:
1) In order to compare to spell casters you have to compare spell casters of roughly the same type: blaster vs. blaster, summoner vs. summoner. Otherwise you are comparing spellcasting styles not character classes. A good example of this would Fey Bloodline Sorcerer vs. Illusionist School Wizard, not all of the matchups will be quite so neat, but I think it would make for a more fair comparison.
2) All controllable variables have to be equal. 10th level Characters made with an elite array, and WBL.
3) Builds will all be made by me, and then presented on the thread. Anyone who thinks that a given build is less than optimal, is free to make suggestions, and then characters will be modified to present the best possible character given the variables presented.
4) DM dependent variables will be eliminated as much as possible, spells such as illusions, lesser planar binding, the Charm set, will not be used in encounters but will be considered for the example scenarios.
5) In addition to be being able to contribute significantly to a 4 encounter day, all participants must be built to be able to accomplish a variety of tasks represented by 4 hypothetical scenarios which are as follows:
Scenario #1 – Murder at the Inn
The daughter of a town mayor has been murdered in the back room at the tavern. One of the other PC’s was the last to be seen with her and therefore is the prime suspect. The Mage must both clear his fellow party members name and find the real killer.
Scenario #2- Robbie the Robber Baron
A local noble has been disguising his men as local brigands to raid into his neighbor’s lands. Stop Robbie’s marauding without starting a war, which means without killing Robbie or his men.
Scenario #3- Scout Out Enemy Fortress
There is a large fortification some distance from town, which seems to be the source of increased monster activity in the region. Scout out the fortress, and determine the veracity of the above statement and what options might be available to the party.
Scenario #4- Gobgob’s Revenge
After their god was defiled by adventurerers a local tribe of goblins has come down out of the mountains to assault a peaceful settlement with little in the way of defenses. Stop the goblins and keep them from sacking the town.
6) Finally characters will be compared PvP.
I'd like to hear any feedback people have on my proposal, and any other suggestions posters might have.
*epic*
..win?
..it's always the same problem at these events!
..and do they turn their cellphones off?
Hell no!
Sheesh...
Our first two contestants are as follows:
Caesar the Celestial Sorcerer vs. Abner the Abjurer
Both of them provide powerful support, summoning, buffs, and de-buffs from flying invisible mages, but who is really better. You make the call!
Caesar the Celestial
Caesar the Celestial Level 10, Human Sorcerer, Celestial Bloodline
Str 8
Dex 12+2
Con 14+2
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 18+4
AC 14 (+4 for Mage Armor/+4 for Shield)
HP 83 (+1D10+10 form False Life)
CMB +4
CMD 22/20 Fl
Initiative +4
Saves
Fort +8
Ref +7
Will +9
Feats/Traits
Extend Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Spell Focus: Conjouring
Augment Summoning
Defensive Combat Training
Eschew Material
Focused Mind
Reactionary
Special Abilities
Heavenly Fire 1D4+5 30’ Ranged Touch Attack (Heals Good Creatures)
Acid Resistance 10
Cold Resistance 10
Wings of Heaven (Su) Fly 60’ (Good) 10 min/day
Skills
Appraise +6
Bluff + 12
Diplomacy +6
Fly +7
Heal +4
Intimidate +19
Knowledge (Arcana) +6
Knowledge (All Others) +3
Linguistics +6
Perception +2
Perform: Sing +7 (He’s supposed to be like a an angel he should be able to sing)
Sense Motive +4
Spellcraft +15
Survival +1
UMD +10
Gear
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Physical Might Dex & Con +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
Ring of Invisibility
Ring of Protection +1
Rod of Metamagic, Enlarge
Scrolls – Honeyed Tongue, Identify x2, Alter Self, Knock x 2, Protection from Arrows, Web x 2
Spells per day Any/8./8/7/6/4 (*indicates a spell he has up all the time)
DC is spell level + 16 (17 for Conjuration)
Spells Known
0
Acid Splash
Arcane Mark
Dancing Lights
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Light
Mage Hand
Message
Resistance
1
Bless
Charm Person
Feather Fall
Mage Armor*
Magic Missile
Ray of Enfeeblement
Shield
True Strike
2
Bull’s Strength
Darkvision*
Detect Thoughts
False Life*
Glitterdust
Resist Energy
Scorching Ray
3
Dispel Magic
Haste
Major Image
Magic Circle Against Evil
Slow
Suggestion
4
Black Tentacles
Dimension Door
Enervation
Remove Curse
5
Summon Monster V
Abner the Abjurer
Abner the Abjurer Level 10, Human Wizard, Abjuration School
Str 8
Dex 14+2
Con 14+2
Int 18+4
Wis 12
Cha 10
AC 15 (+4 for Mage Armor/+4 for Shield/ +3 for Protective Ward)
HP 90
CMB +4
CMD 23/20 Fl
Initiative +9
Saves
Fort +8
Ref +8
Will +10
Feats/Traits
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Item
Scribe Scroll
Spell Focus: Conjouring
Augment Summoning
Defensive Combat Training
Improved Familiar
Improved Intiative
Toughness
Focused Mind
Reactionary
Special Abilities
Energy Absorption 30 HP/day
Protective Ward (+3 Deflection Bonus to AC in 10’ Radius for 6 Rounds) 9x/day
Fire Resistance 5
Skills
Acrobatics +4
Appraise +10
Bluff + 1
Diplomacy +3
Fly +9
Heal +2
Intimidate +5
Knowledge (Arcana/The Planes) +19
Knowledge (All Others) +10
Linguistics +11
Perception +11
Ride +3
Sense Motive +11
Spellcraft +19
Stealth +4
Survival +2
UMD +10
Gear
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Physical Might Dex & Con +2
Blessed Book (This 12,500 GP represents the WBL the wizard used to obtain his spell library)
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack (All Wands in Haversack/ Familiar has access)
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 (Worn by Familiar)
Headband of Vast Intelligence +4 (Bonus Skills Knowledge: Arcana and Knowledge: the Planes)
Ring of Protection +1
Wand of Enlarge Person
Wand of Invisibility
Wand of Magic Missile CL9
Wand of Protection from Evil
Wand of Shield
Spells (*indicates a spell he has up all the time)
DC is spell level + 16 (17 for Conjuration)
Opposition Schools- Evocation and Necromancy
Spells Known
0
Acid Splash
Arcane Mark
Bleed
Dancing Lights
Daze
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Flare
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Open/Close
Ray of Frost
Read Magic
Resistance
Spark
Touch of Fatigue
Unwitting Ally
1
Charm Person
Color Spray
Enlarg Person
Expeditious Retreat
Floating Disk
Grease Identify
Mage Armor*
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil
Protection from Good
Shield
2
Acid Arrow
Alter Self
Bull’s Strength
Darkvision*
Detect Thoughts
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Resist Energy
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Web
3
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Dispel Magic
Displacement
Fireball
Fly
Haste
Heroism
Major Image
Suggestion
4
Black Tentacles
Charm Monster
Dimension Door
Dimensional Anchor
Greater Invisibility
Summon Monster IV
5
Overland Flight
Summon Monster V
Telekinesis
Spells Memorized
1
Protection from Evil
Charm Person x2
Floating Disk (2 slots)
Grease
Mage Armor*
2
Resist Energy
Acid Arrow
Bull’s Strength x 2
Dark Vision*
Detect Thoughts
Glitterdust
3
Dispel Magic
Haste x2
Major Image
Suggestion
4
Dimensional Anchor
Black Tentacles
Charm Monster
Greater Invisibility
Summon Monster IV
5
Dismissal
Overland Flight
Summon Monster V
Telekinesis
Familiar- The Cooler
Ice Mephit
Str 13
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 14+2 Headband of alluring Charisma (and yes his familiar has gear)
AC 22/14 touch/ 19 Fl (+4 Mage Armor/+4 Shield/+3 Protective Ward)
HP 45
Initiative +6
Racial Abilities
Darkvision
Breath Weapon
Chill Metal
Improved Evasion
Magic Missile
Summon Ice Mephit 20%
Skills
Acrobatics +3
Appraise +1
Bluff +9
Climb +2
Diplomacy +6
Disguise +4
Escape Artist +2
Fly +10
Heal +1
Linguistics +2
Perception +13
Sense motive +13
Spell Craft +10
Stealth +12
Survival +1
Swim +2
UMD +13
Here is the proposed encounter day all contestants will be participating in:
Level 10 Adventuring Day
8 CR 4 Creatures- 8 Gargoyles
2 CR 8 Creatures- 2 Ogre Magi
3 CR 7 Creatures- 3 Specters
1 CR 9 Creature and 3 CR 1 Creatures- 1 Greater Fire Elemental and 3 Small Fire Elementals
The contestants will be expected to cast at least 4 spells in each encounter. The idea is not that these characters should be able to defeat these encounters by themselves, but to see if wizards start running out of spells by the end of the day as some posters have postulated, and to test the power of the sorcerers repetitive spell combination.
The goal is to try to determine (if we can without arguing for 700+posts) which contestant would be more valuable to their party.
There's an awful lot of gigantic assumptions which you're taking in order for this to work.
I guess I have to go into detail.
The plan is to get the guy alone. The cleric will cast silence outside of the room, but between the "leader" and the main floor. His sound will not get past the area of silence. The casting should not be seen by anyone. As for the charm spell it will only be seen by the "leader". Basically if the spell is used it would be used in a smart way. I am way too lazy to go into detail when everyone here is smart enough to figure out how to set it up.
Not really. All it takes is a building with private areas. I also said something about it being circumstantial a few post back. A lot of the plan also depends on a lot of other factors that are not present. I was speaking in general. If a specific example is needed then we both need specific scenarios. In any event, in the end a spell is better than skills most of the time.
I don't see why a lot of skills have to be sacrificed. I would just use the favored class point to get extra spells I thought I might need. Of course what spells are "needed" will vary depending on who you talk too.
The contestants will be expected to cast at least 4 spells in each encounter.
Why is the wizard casting spells every round, and why is it being assumed the fights last four rounds?
Even as a sorcerer I would not just go blowing spells. Every fight has a point when the party knows it is basically in the bag.
I think all the fights should be simulated
Scenario Breakdown-
Being an invisible flying mage will be of great help in most of these scenarios. Both characters have a wide range of abilities, and a considerable amount of power. Abner definitely has the skill advantage (by 50 points), but Caesar has 3 meta magic feats he can mix and match to get the most out of each of his spells. In particular the Silent & Still versions of Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, and Major Image should be especially useful.
Scenario #1 – Murder at the Inn
The daughter of a town mayor has been murdered in the back room at the tavern. One of the other PC’s was the last to be seen with her and therefore is the prime suspect. The Mage must both clear his fellow party members name and find the real killer.
Abner’s +11 Perception and Sense Motive, should provide some info. His familiar, the Cooler, actually has better scores in both areas and should be able to provide his master with some good advice.
Caesar doesn’t have the skill set, but his combination of spells and feats should allow him to find out all the information he needs if he can just get near a few suspects. Telepathy anyone.
Either one should be able to get his buddy off the hook, and get justice for the dead girl.
Scenario #2- Robbie the Robber Baron
A local noble has been disguising his men as local brigands to raid into his neighbor’s lands. Stop Robbie’s marauding without starting a war, which means without killing Robbie or his men.
Both characters have illusions, summoning, and mind control. If they can’t flat out Suggest Robbie change his ways, either one can certainly give him something to think about.
Neither one is tailor made for this situation, but they both should be able to make significant contributions.
Scenario #3- Scout Out Enemy Fortress
There is a large fortification some distance from town, which seems to be the source of increased monster activity in the region. Scout out the fortress, and determine the veracity of the above statement and what options might be available to the party.
Either character is up for the task, and more than capable of helping a more skilled character like a rogue/ ranger/ bard make this a cake walk. Abner may have the slight advantage because he can swap out some slots for Clairvoyance and See Invisibility. He also has Stealth +4 and Perception +11 which may come in handy.
Scenario #4- Gobgob’s Revenge
After their god was defiled by adventurerers a local tribe of goblins has come down out of the mountains to assault a peaceful settlement with little in the way of defenses. Stop the goblins and keep them from sacking the town.
Abner is really more of a defender than an attacker, and he doesn’t really have any wall spells. He could certainly load up on Web, Fireball (2 slots a pop though), Major Image, Summon Monsters, and even Charm Monster and just try to take over the leader. Not the ideal character for this scenario, but he’ll do just fine.
Caesar might be wishing he had Fireball, but considering he can cast Black Tentacles 6 times (or more if he wants to use meta magic feats to use up level 5 slots), I think he’ll do pretty good. That combined with Summon Monster V and an aerial assault of Scorching Rays should convince Gobgob’s followers to take a hike.
The contestants will be expected to cast at least 4 spells in each encounter.
Why is the wizard casting spells every round, and why is it being assumed the fights last four rounds?
Even as a sorcerer I would not just go blowing spells. Every fight has a point when the party knows it is basically in the bag.
I think all the fights should be simulated
Simulating the whole fight is a nice idea, but now you are talking up making the rest of the party on top of the 19 spellcasters I made for this mock-up.
Just like the DPR Olympics some assumptions have to be made. The idea is to test the spell power of each character, a lot of the wizards have telekinesis, if they use the spell on round 1, there is no reason why they wouldn't continue using the spell on rounds 2, 3, and 4. So for that encounter they would have used 1 5th Level Spell.
For Sorcerers, that doesn't even burn up all their 3rd, 4th, and 5th Level Spells. They have more than enough juice to let her rip.
I picked four rounds, because most fights are wrapped up by that point, a spellcaster might need to keep casting after that, but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. By that time a 10th Level fighter has done between 160-240 points of damage (if he got to full attack each round), and that's without Haste.
Also it's not just spell casting, but also SLA, and gear that could be used. Really we're talking about 4 actions, but we all know what kind of actions we want to see spellcasters doing.
Here is a breakdown of a possible list of actions for the four encounters mentioned above.
Encounter #1 8 CR 4 Gargoyles
Caesar the Celestial
Round #1- Slow
Round #2- Summon Monster V- Large Air Elemental
Round #3- Haste
Round #4- Scorching Ray
Abner the Abjurer/ Ice Mephit Familiar (70% Chance to activate wand)
Round #1 Haste/Wand of Invisibility
Round #2 Protective Ward/ Wand of Shield
Round #3 Charm Monster /Wand of Magic Missile
Round #4 Wand of MM/ Mephit Magic Missile
Breakdown:
Early on we are seeing how the wizard has to conserve resources for later encounters, even though he has twice as many actions he does not have near the impact the sorcerer has.
Encounter #2-2 CR 8 Ogre Magi
Caesar the Celestial
Round #1- Glitterdust
Round #2- Summon Monster V- Bralani Azata
Round #3- Magic Circle vs. Evil (if anyone is charmed) or Haste
Round #4 – Slow or Enervation
Abner the Abjurer/ Ice Mephit Familiar (70% Chance to activate wand)
Round #1 Glitterdust/Wand of Invisibility
Round #2 Greater Invisibility (probably on Rogue)/ Wand of Protection from Evil
Round #3 Telekinesis/ Wand of Shield
Round #4 Telekinesis or Dispel Magic/ Wand of Protection from Evil or MM
Breakdown:
Both mages do their job keeping the Ogre's visible and their companions uncharmed. Depending on who Abner cast GI on it could be like a fireball that keeps firing, but Caesar looks tough again in the second encounter.
Encounter #3-2 CR 7 Spectres
Caesar the Celestial
Round #1- Magic Circle vs. Evil (to create an area the party could fight from)
Round #2- Haste
Round #3- Mage Armor (if someone looked like they needed help) or Scorching Ray if we needed offense.
Round #4 Mage Armor (if someone looked like they needed help) or Scorching Ray if we needed offense.
Abner the Abjurer/ Ice Mephit Familiar (70% Chance to activate wand)
Round #1 Haste/ Wand of MM
Round #2 Protective Ward/ Wand of MM
Round #3 Summon Monster IV – Medium Air Elemntal/ Wand of MM
Round #4 Protection from Evil/ Wand of MM
Breakdown:
Haste is never a bad option, and they both bust a little group protection. Neither one looks terribly strong here against an undead/flying/incorporeal opponent.
Encounter #4 1 CR 9 Greater Fire Elemental and 3 CR 3 Small Fire Elementals
Caesar the Celestial
Round #1- Black Tentacles
Round #2- Summon Monster V- Large Water Elemental
Round #3- Haste
Round #4- Enervation
Abner the Abjurer/ Ice Mephit Familiar (70% Chance to activate wand)
Round #1- Dismissal/ Wand of Shield
Round #2- Black Tentacles/ Wand of Invisibility
Round #3- Summon Monster V- Large Water Elemental/ Wand of MM
Round #4- Bull’s Strength on Elemental/ Wand of MM
Breakdown:
Dismissal has a 75% chance of getting rid of the Greater Fire Elemental right of the bat. We fianlly get to see a wizard use one of those game breaking spells everyone is always talking about and they look very strong for the rest of the encounter if it made the Will save.
Caesar is as strong in the last encounter as he was in the first. We see here the power of repetitive combination, but he didn't have the game breaker Abner did.
Overall they both did well, but this judge scores it in favor of Caesar the Celestial. How say the rest of you?
Tell me what you think, what you liked, and what you think needs to change.
*more epic*
Gah! The one weekend where I have minimal free time!
STOP IT! This thread has gotten very silly*.
* - Note that in silly land, something can arrive at a place it's been at for a while.
Seriously, I had to skip pages 8 to current. The argument comparing Sorcerers to Wizards is ridiculous. They're two completely different classes that happen to use the same spell list. It's like comparing Paladins and Rangers (whose spell lists, while not the same, are similar enough to be comparable).
Rangers are better because they use Wisdom based skills and can track better! Favored Enemy gives you so much of an advantage!
Nuh uh, Paladins are better because the Paladin can use Charisma skills so much better and Smite evil works better!
See how silly it all is? Sorcerers have a good spell selection that allows them to be useful in most situations, a good skill selection even with the low amount of skill points they have, and decent bloodline abilities. Wizards have the ability to prepare for nearly anything, a good skill selection with decent skill points, and decent abilities with their specialization school (seriously, getting to act first in the surprise round (diviner level 1) or getting to freely teleport around the battlefield as a move action (conjurer level 8) are not small things).
Item creation feats are more geared for a Wizard (though a Sorcerer can certainly benefit from them), and Meta-magic feats are more geared for the Sorcerer (though a Wizard can certainly benefit from them). Other feats can be utilized by any class. A Wizard can have just as high (or higher) of a leadership score than a Sorcerer by not dumping Cha, choosing the Bonded Object (which a lot of wizards would do anyway, my Eldritch Knight did, and she isn't taking Leadership), and, in LT's example, instead of just getting another cohort when the first one died, taking the body to a temple and getting raise dead cast, turning that minus for a dead cohort into a plus for generosity and kindness. The Sorcerer can be a better Summoner than the Wizard by taking Augmented Conjuring (assuming base Wizard, not one focusing on Conjuration). The Wizard can permanently copy scrolls into his spellbook and have them forever. The Sorcerer can cast spells of other classes with Use Magic Device. Both classes have their own unique abilities.
I personally prefer wizards (specifically Conjurers, as their level 8 power is RIDICULOUSLY powerful), but I can see the virtue of Sorcerers. They both have their place. The Sorcerer has staying power, the Wizard has versatility. If I have a choice, in a 5 person party, I'll have one of each. I'll play the Wizard, as I like them more, but I'm not going to begrudge the Sorcerer for his choice, and I'll be thanking him when he pulls my butt out of the fire, as I'm sure he'll be thanking me when I pull his out. And of course, we'll both be happy the fighter is there to let us both not die. So seriously, can we all let this thread die now?
This flame war has gone on long enough. I'm tired of people being insulting and closed minded (and some of you have been (not all of you), which is a great discredit to the normal tone of the Paizo forums). People are going to disagree with you. People are going to disagree with me. The first (and biggest) step to wisdom is allowing for the possibility that you MIGHT be wrong. Not the acceptance that you are, each of you hold your opinions for good reasons, I'm sure, just that the guy that disagrees with you MIGHT have information you don't, or a viewpoint you haven't considered. Please consider this when you next write a post. I'm tired of people being called stupid because they like class X, Y, or Z more than class A, B, or C.
Here is the final test between our two mock mages- the duel.
Caesar the Celestial vs. Abner the Abjurer Mage Duel
With a +5 Initiative advantage Abner is almost certain to go first. Both contestants are flying, and we’ll assume that they start with no spells up, and no activation items turned on.
If Abner has no time to prepare, and the duel takes place with his “standard” selection of memorized spells this is how it could go down:
Abner’s best opening move is to summon a Large Air Elemntal to grapple Caesar, with the +4 Str bonus from Augment Summoning it has a 65% to Grab him.
Caesar can D-Door out of the Elemental’s grasp out to such a range that it can’t reach him for a round or two. If Abner can get close enough he has a 50% Chance to hit him with a Dimensional Anchor.
If Caesar can get some space he can start dropping Large Air Elementals himself. Abner has a 95% chance to Dismiss the first one, but after that he simply has to contend with 3 large outsiders.
The Cooler will do an average of 12.25 DPR with Magic Missiles to Caesar until he spends an action to turn on Shield.
Although Abner starts strong out of the gates and punishes him early, Caesar’s superior mobility and 3:1 monster advantage will eventually take the day.
If he has a day to prepare, Abner shows up with a much better selection of spells for a mage’s duel.
1
Protection from Evil
Mage Armor
Magic Missile x2
Protection form Good
2
Resist Energy
Acid Arrow x3
Glitterdust
Scorching Ray
3
Dispel Magic x2
Haste x2
Heroism
4
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Summon Monster IV x3
5
Dismissal x2
Overland Flight
Summon Monster V
Again Abner starts with intiative. He drops a Large Air Elemental, and over the next two rounds Dismisses both creatures Caesar Summons. Winning intiattive, and a familiar doing 12.25 DPR carry the day. It’s no surprise, but with a spell list of his choice I give the duel to the wizard.
Pie>Cake