No, he doesn't. The Sorcerer requires 15 minutes, not an hour.The maximum amount of time you can spend making an item is 8 hours a day. The ring gives 6 for free. the extra 2 is just resting in the evening.
This doesn't even make sense.
If not, use a Floating Disk as a bench, and keep tools in a Bag of Holding.
The Floating Disk is concave. It'd make a very awkward desk.
Furthermore, the days spent on a magic item are NOT required to be consecutive, and an item doesn't need to get done in one day.
No one said otherwise. But now we're talking about a lot of gold spent over a long period of time compared to binding which, with the Sorcerer's bonus, will almost certainly be done in a night.
which will likely cost him funds, too
Another example of somebody creating arbitrary rules not supported by the book in order to try to show how much better the wizard allegedly is.
the sorceror is going to be paying a bound creature whether he uses him or not
And yet another example of somebody creating arbitrary rules not supported by teh book in order to try to show how much superior the wizard allegedly is
Kindly also note that alignment determines what you can bind.
And yet -another- example of somebody creating arbitrary rules not supported by the book in order to try to show how much superior the wizard allegedly is
If you have an Imp familiar, there's no way that you're going to bind a couatl.
And yet another example..oh man, this is getting predictable
I'm beginning to agree with others in that you have a problem.
1) Magic Item construction takes 8 hours a day. The ring gives you 6 that you used to sleep. You get the extra 2 in the evening as everyone else bunks out...a full day of magic item construction. As for 15 minutes vs an hour...that's a non-event. CLerics and Druids still take an hour, it only matters in solo play.
2) Dude. Some thought before you reply. Put a shield on the Disk. A weighted cloth. A fold-out table. And it doesn't have to be level...it has to keep stuff off the ground.
3) We're talking about something he can do every day, and you spend most of your time being non-productive, since you already have what you want. It also doesn't 'cost him funds'...it magnifies the power of the mage's wealth by level. You might be expending funds on bribes...the mage is doubling the value of his and his friends' cash.
4-6)Your arbitrary replies are very trying. A planar binding spell is the alignment of the creature used to summon it. A sorceror with an Imp is Evil...a Good creature will not respond to his spell.
Furthermore, using the spell requires Magic Circle against Alignment, and to really be successful, needs a summoning diagram, which means you can't DO this on the road easily, and certainly not at will.
The creature gets a Will save to NOT COME. Which wastes your spell.
It then gets a Spell resistance check, and a chance to shift away, i.e. multiple chances for the spell. You know why people don't use Phantasmal killer? Same reason.
Furthermore, there's that Nat 1 'breaks free and attacks you' thing.
Lastly, impossible or 'unreasonable' demands are ALWAYS REFUSED. Telling a couatl to serve an Evil character is highly unreasonable. A demon might not care about serving a Good character, since he just cast an Evil spell and his alignment is delightfully in jeopardy. Likewise, getting Chaotics and Lawfuls to serve PC's of the opposite alignment is completely unreasonable.
And then the whole 'creature remembers and seeks vengeance upon you' which should be a HUGE strike against the spell to anyone with any sense.
Remember you are binding a creature and putting DEMANDS onto it so it can go back to doing what it wants to do. This is akin to Bin Laden summoning you up, putting chains on you, and demanding you go out and kill infidels for him before he'll let you go home. THIS is NOT a friendly discussion, even if you are a fellow Muslim.
Trying to base the superiority of the sorceror on this spell runs into so many absolutes and failures that you're better off just not bringing it up.
==Aelryinth
Trying to base the superiority of the sorceror on this spell runs into so many absolutes and failures that you're better off just not bringing it up.
I think LT was just trying to illustrate that the sorcerer in general has an advantage over most other classes that are able to bind (notably wizard) as Charisma is the one and only prime stat that is required for a sorcerer to function, which is correct. That is without regard to what one is binding. A higher Charisma means a higher result on the opposed check, assuming there is one and it isn't an "unreasonable" request, and thus a higher percentage of success when quick negotiations are made, where as a wizard over several castings will likely have to wait a day or two and retry.
Binding can be a powerful spell, when used appropriately and it is notable that due to their higher charisma a sorcerer has more freedom in choosing what to bind. If a wizard were to bind an Erinyes the opposed charisma check would be more difficult and may take longer, so he is out of luck if an Erinyes key abilities were vital that day.
That said the situations that I've encountered in which binding would be most appropiate often allot enough time for a wizard to succeed with a more basely charismatic entity. Usually when I bind, from personal experience, I want a creature that conviently has a Cha mod of +3 or lower.
On the alignment of the spell only clerics I believe are barred from casting spells with descriptors that are diametrically opposed to their alignment. A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.
A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.
I believe this is correct also. She can bind a creature of an opposite alignment. It seems the spell was made to force creatures to help you, as opposed to planar ally which is more of a "fair trade" situation.
I would much rather use my UMD as a sorcerer to cast planar ally if I thought it was reasonable that it might help me due to like ideals. Forcing anyone to do something even if they would normally agree does not go over well. It would be like going into someone's personal belongings without asking to get a dollar. It is not the fact that it was only a dollar(insert agreeable ideal), but the way it was done.
Here’s a breakdown of Spells Known for the Sorceror, Arcane Bloodline, Human.
Level 20 Base spells Known is 9 +5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
Bonus Spells, +1 for each level: Identify, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun, Wish.
At 9th, 13th, and 17th, you get a bonus spell known. We’ll assume a 4th, 6th and 8th level spell.
The Human Favored Class gives you +1 Spell known, of 1 level less then the highest level you can cast. So basically, you get 2 cantrips (levels 2-3), and then +2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3, for an effective +15 spells known.
Without stats, magic items or spells, you now have:
12 + 8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4, + Potential Arcane Bond, +3 varied feats from a short list.
That’s quite a few spells known.
Also note a weird effect. IF the sorceror goes into Epic levels, she keeps getting more spells known via Favored Class at EVERY level. If she opens up 10th+ spell slots, these can be 9th or higher level spells, too!
For spells castable, at 20th we have 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6. With a starting Cha of 16, human bonus +2, +5 levels, +5 inherent from the Wish spell she can cast, +6 headband, we end up with a 34 Cha, which gives us 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1, for a grand total of:
9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7 spells castable per day, and 12 different cantrips, unlimited.
As for Int: With a starting 10, +6 Headband, +5 Inherent if she wants it, she has a 21 Int, for +6 skill points/level as a human, which nets 8/level, which maxes pretty much all class skills. The Wizard does not gain much benefit for buffing Charisma.
----------------------------
The Wizard:
Gets 4 + 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. This is 5 + 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 if he’s a specialist, but it costs him some spell flexibility.
He’s WAY behind on cantrips ;)
With a 34 Int (same as sorcs Cha)
5 + 8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6 if he’s a specialist. Hah, cantrips don’t go up via Int.
The Generalist is 4 + 7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5.
He’s got an Arcane Bond and 4 feats from a better list.
His favored class version if human gets him more spells for free in his spell book, but doesn’t help with spells available at one time.
Higher Int gives him +12 skill points, so that’s useful. +12 Int bonus will probably mean he’s better at Knowledge skills then a bard, too (bard bonus max +10).
==
Yeah, Kinda giving the nod to the human sorcerer here. That Favored Class benefit is huge. And the best thing is all those spells are permanently known, not subject to magic or other effects, and they are ALL DIFFERENT…no repeated spells so you can cast something 2/day.
I’m thinking that with 63 different spells known all the time, there is not going to be much of a problem with ‘specific spell required’ at higher levels…or even at lower ones.
And again, note that the sorceror spells Known is not based on stats: She gets them all by level, by Arcane Bloodline, and by human favored class.
Non-humans get substantially fewer spells known,of course…17, to be exact.
Non-Arcane bloodlines learn 3 less spells (4th, 6th, 8th).
==Aelryinth
A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.
I believe this is correct also. She can bind a creature of an opposite alignment. It seems the spell was made to force creatures to help you, as opposed to planar ally which is more of a "fair trade" situation.
I would much rather use my UMD as a sorcerer to cast planar ally if I thought it was reasonable that it might help me due to like ideals. Forcing anyone to do something even if they would normally agree does not go over well. It would be like going into someone's personal belongings without asking to get a dollar. It is not the fact that it was only a dollar(insert agreeable ideal), but the way it was done.
he might be able to cast it with alignment repercussions, but he can't FORCE a creature to obey him.
Impossible or unreasonable commands will ALWAYS be refused. Asking an Outsider of the opposite alignment to serve you is entirely unreasonable...he's going to get nowhere with that, if he's got an Imp for a familiar.
he's basically arguing sorcs are great because they are the best at using a spell that most people would be better off not using...like Phantasmal Killer. It's a weird way to cheerlead for a class.
==Aelryinth
On the alignment of the spell only clerics I believe are barred from casting spells with descriptors that are diametrically opposed to their alignment. A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.Planer Binding was aligned in 3X. It's not in Pathfinder.
read the spell description...I just looked at in the OGC. If you use it to summon an Aligned OUtsider, it's a spell of that alignment.
==Aelryinth
On the alignment of the spell only clerics I believe are barred from casting spells with descriptors that are diametrically opposed to their alignment. A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.Planer Binding was aligned in 3X. It's not in Pathfinder.
I will admit that I haven't cast the spell since switching from 3.5 to PF. That said, I have no problem with a LN character binding a CG one. It is bound for negotiations of varying levels of pleasantness, from a freindly request of a similarly aligned caster to tough demands of an opposed one. After all I can think of plenty of Realms canon where good priest bound Imps/Quasits as spies.
A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.
I believe this is correct also. She can bind a creature of an opposite alignment. It seems the spell was made to force creatures to help you, as opposed to planar ally which is more of a "fair trade" situation.
I would much rather use my UMD as a sorcerer to cast planar ally if I thought it was reasonable that it might help me due to like ideals. Forcing anyone to do something even if they would normally agree does not go over well. It would be like going into someone's personal belongings without asking to get a dollar. It is not the fact that it was only a dollar(insert agreeable ideal), but the way it was done.he might be able to cast it with alignment repercussions, but he can't FORCE a creature to obey him.
Impossible or unreasonable commands will ALWAYS be refused. Asking an Outsider of the opposite alignment to serve you is entirely unreasonable...he's going to get nowhere with that, if he's got an Imp for a familiar.
he's basically arguing sorcs are great because they are the best at using a spell that most people would be better off not using...like Phantasmal Killer. It's a weird way to cheerlead for a class.
==Aelryinth
I missed the unreasonable part, and I got ninja'd on the alignment part, but as a reference:
PRD(planar binding):When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
I will admit that I haven't cast the spell since switching from 3.5 to PF. That said, I have no problem with a LN character binding a CG one. It is bound for negotiations of varying levels of pleasantness, from a freindly request of a similarly aligned caster to tough demands of an opposed one. After all I can think of plenty of Realms canon where good priest bound Imps/Quasits as spies.On the alignment of the spell only clerics I believe are barred from casting spells with descriptors that are diametrically opposed to their alignment. A sorcerer of LN status can cast a Chaotic descriptored spell, which is a chaotic act, but by no means is he prevented from doing so. Many of these might, at worst, change his alignment.Planer Binding was aligned in 3X. It's not in Pathfinder.
Evil creatures might serve good ones, because it's a good way to make them fall.
Making Good creatures serve Evil? Unreasonable, not going to happen. You could Bind them there, but you can't make them serve you.
==Aerlyinth
he might be able to cast it with alignment repercussions, but he can't FORCE a creature to obey him.
Impossible or unreasonable commands will ALWAYS be refused. Asking an Outsider of the opposite alignment to serve you is entirely unreasonable...he's going to get nowhere with that, if he's got an Imp for a familiar.
he's basically arguing sorcs are great because they are the best at using a spell that most people would be better off not using...like Phantasmal Killer. It's a weird way to cheerlead for a class.
==Aelryinth
Asking an outsider of an opposite alignment to serve a directly opposing cause may be unreasonable, but helping a diametrically opposed caster for a neutral cause I don't think would be. After all, just because the caster is LN doesn't mean he is only after goals that further beings of law. But we don't know his motivations and they would change in each scenario.
he's basically arguing sorcs are great because they are the best at using a spell that most people would be better off not using...like Phantasmal Killer. It's a weird way to cheerlead for a class.
He's arguing that sorcerers have an advantage over wizards in a spell that has the potential to be very, very useful, mostly due to its versitility. Whether the spell is worth using or not falls entirely into personal preference and individual groups.
He pointed out several spells that sorcerers in general have an advantage in, including the Charm set. I can think of far fewer spells off the top of my head that require an Int check or opposed check (contact other plane?).
I counter by saying that a wizard still shouldn't have too much trouble charming or binding most things, like ugly giants or binding elementals. But I admit that there are some things that would best be left to a sorcerer to charm or bind, such as other sorcerers and demons/devils respectively.
He has a valid point, at least as far as his and probably many other groups go. These advantages help balance sorcerer compared to other arcane classes.
Also, the usefulness of Phantasmal Killer is debatable. Helps casters keep pesky rogues from looting their towers.
Also, asking a chaotic creature to do something chaotic - which ends up hurting another chaotic creature and, thus, helps the cause of law, is devious and twisted, but quite reasonable.Asking an outsider of an opposite alignment to serve a directly opposing cause may be unreasonable, but helping a diametrically opposed caster for a neutral cause I don't think would be. After all, just because the caster is LN doesn't mean he is only after goals that further beings of law. But we don't know his motivations and they would change in each scenario.he might be able to cast it with alignment repercussions, but he can't FORCE a creature to obey him.
Impossible or unreasonable commands will ALWAYS be refused. Asking an Outsider of the opposite alignment to serve you is entirely unreasonable...he's going to get nowhere with that, if he's got an Imp for a familiar.
he's basically arguing sorcs are great because they are the best at using a spell that most people would be better off not using...like Phantasmal Killer. It's a weird way to cheerlead for a class.
==Aelryinth
Hence bluff vs sense motive. But only if it were to further the cause of law. If helping law was only a minor side affect of the primary goal and actions within a binding a creature with low Int/Wis, or one simply outdone in wordplay may easily overlook depending on its paticular level of zeal.
I counter by saying that a wizard still shouldn't have too much trouble charming or binding most things, like ugly giants or binding elementals. But I admit that there are some things that would best be left to a sorcerer to charm or bind, such as other sorcerers and demons/devils respectively.I'd add angels to the list that should be left to the Sorcerer to bind. I'd also add that while giants and elementals are neat and helpful, demons, devils, and angels have all kinds of neat special abilities and spells which are wonderful.
Frankly, phantasmal killer has always underwhelmed me.
the usefulness of Phantasmal Killer is debatable. Helps casters keep pesky rogues from looting their towers.
Of course, angels also happen to have the high Cha. It slipped my mind for I usually just think of a cleric using planar ally to net one while an arcane caster brought in infernals in binding. There are a handful of other useful outsiders that get juicy though; mostly elementals, but don't forget Xill and Slaad.
A few years back I had a CE Wu Jen in 3.5 (did anybody else notice it odd that the Wu Jen couldn't be lawful but had to follow a rigid set of ancestral rules?) who could bind fey, as per spirit binding. Pull a dryad who automatically dies if they spend 4D6 hours away from their trees and it gets only one chance to accept your terms. Never did find a good use for a dryad by the time I could bind one, but it was a cute trick none the less. Loved me some spirit binding, incorpereal undead were fun to snag.
I go back and forth on PK. As a DM I hate to impose death affects on players, and as a player I usually cringe at a spell that allows two saves, but it has come in handy more times than I count, so I acredit it more than one likely would just by looking it over.
Hence bluff vs sense motive.Absolutely, and I consider this part of the fun of the class.
I usually end up taking bluff regardless of class, as at some point I'll likely lie and circumstance mods can only get you so far. It is convienent that Half-Elves get Skill Focus at first level because I love basically getting the same bonus to it as if it were a class skill. A fighter with a handfull of social skills seems to throw an unprepared DM for loop. But I'm getting off topic.
I enjoy the sorcerer's ability to set up a common strategy and use it repeatedly in combat, where a wizard nixes his primary bonus if he does so by preparing many copies of the same spell. Especially since getting the APG recently using the pit spells mixed with pushing spells (TK, Hydraulic Push, ect). As a wizard I would be unable to throw a pit every fight as well as be able to continually push people into them with multiple of the same spell without crippling myself. As a sorcerer I can just take the better pit spells and switch out the old for a more useful low level spell as they come. But being behind in spell progression hits like a truck.
Here’s a breakdown of Spells Known for the Sorceror, Arcane Bloodline, Human.
Level 20 Base spells Known is 9 +5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
Bonus Spells, +1 for each level: Identify, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun, Wish.
At 9th, 13th, and 17th, you get a bonus spell known. We’ll assume a 4th, 6th and 8th level spell.
The Human Favored Class gives you +1 Spell known, of 1 level less then the highest level you can cast. So basically, you get 2 cantrips (levels 2-3), and then +2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3, for an effective +15 spells known.
Without stats, magic items or spells, you now have:
12 + 8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4, + Potential Arcane Bond, +3 varied feats from a short list.
That’s quite a few spells known.
Also note a weird effect. IF the sorceror goes into Epic levels, she keeps getting more spells known via Favored Class at EVERY level. If she opens up 10th+ spell slots, these can be 9th or higher level spells, too!
For spells castable, at 20th we have 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6. With a starting Cha of 16, human bonus +2, +5 levels, +5 inherent from the Wish spell she can cast, +6 headband, we end up with a 34 Cha, which gives us 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1, for a grand total of:
9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7 spells castable per day, and 12 different cantrips, unlimited.
As for Int: With a starting 10, +6 Headband, +5 Inherent if she wants it, she has a 21 Int, for +6 skill points/level as a human, which nets 8/level, which maxes pretty much all class skills. The Wizard does not gain much benefit for buffing Charisma.
----------------------------
The Wizard:Gets 4 + 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. This is 5 + 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 if he’s a specialist, but it costs him some spell flexibility.
He’s WAY behind on cantrips ;)
With a 34 Int (same as sorcs Cha)
5 + 8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6 if he’s a specialist. Hah, cantrips don’t go up via Int.
The Generalist is 4 + 7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5.He’s got an Arcane Bond and 4 feats from a better list.
His favored...
Thanks for breaking it down. I'd also like to point out that it would cost the wizard 285,000 GP in Pearls of Power to make up the difference.
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Thanks for breaking it down. I'd also like to point out that it would cost the wizard 285,000 GP in Pearls of Power to make up the difference.
The thing most often overlooked in these threads is equipment cost. Not to mention spell component costs.
Cash rules everything around me, even in the world of illusion.
I've removed some posts in this thread. Please stick to the topic at hand and remain civil in your discussions.
He pointed out several spells that sorcerers in general have an advantage in, including the Charm set. I can think of far fewer spells off the top of my head that require an Int check or opposed check (contact other plane?).
Wizards have a big advantage in spells that are useful, but not something you want to cast all the time:
Permanency
Contingency
Mage's Private Sanctum.
Sending
Also wizard's can afford to take spells that will eventually become obsolete:
Color Spray
Bull's Strength (et. all)
Levitate
Flight
Summon Monster I-IV
This is somewhat mitigated by the sorcerer's ability to change spells at even levels. But there are only so many he can trade out.
The problem being that an unlimited selection of spells costs an unlimited amount of money...something that does not concern the sorceror. I mean, really...the Arcane sorc ends up with 8 or 9 first level spells...there just aren't that many spells beyond that which the sorc needs to know.
Permanency can be paid for or purchased for the rare times you want to use it. The others are conveniences, more then anything.
The wizard is great on specific spells for specific problems...if he has them. THe problem is getting them, and by the rules, he's going to be able to cast more spells then he knows by default. So he's going to be laying out a lot of dough.
==Aelryinth
The problem being that an unlimited selection of spells costs an unlimited amount of money...something that does not concern the sorceror. I mean, really...the Arcane sorc ends up with 8 or 9 first level spells...there just aren't that many spells beyond that which the sorc needs to know.
Permanency can be paid for or purchased for the rare times you want to use it. The others are conveniences, more then anything.
The wizard is great on specific spells for specific problems...if he has them. THe problem is getting them, and by the rules, he's going to be able to cast more spells then he knows by default. So he's going to be laying out a lot of dough.
==Aelryinth
You don't need an unlimited selection. In the example character I made, it cost me roughly 10% of my wealth to have twice the Spells Known of an equal level sorcerer.
I definitely think in the area of spells known, and spells the character has to choose from the wizard wins out.
In Spells Per Day, I have to give the nod to the sorcerer.
I think in the end the thing about an LT sorcerer is that all the ways in which it gets an edge over the wizard are precisely the types of things that drive DMs nuts. At least in my experience. There's a lot of DMs I've played with that won't allow leadership because it doubles action economy among other things. So does a charmed, dominated, summoned, or called creature. Before PF a familiar was bad, now they're very powerful simply because they use your skill ranks and can UMD, though to be fair it is more likely for a wizard to have one since they all have that ability, not just one domain.
In the end, as has been said, I think they are far closer in power level than many think. That's the real value of this discourse IMO. Personally I feel that Sorcerer/Wizard is like Ranger/Fighter debate. In the end I feel that wizard and fighter have much more versatility overall and array of options, but if the sor/ranger is built to the specific campaign and/or DM's style it can rather easily be more powerful.
I think in the end the thing about an LT sorcerer is that all the ways in which it gets an edge over the wizard are precisely the types of things that drive DMs nuts. At least in my experience. There's a lot of DMs I've played with that won't allow leadership because it doubles action economy among other things. So does a charmed, dominated, summoned, or called creature. Before PF a familiar was bad, now they're very powerful simply because they use your skill ranks and can UMD, though to be fair it is more likely for a wizard to have one since they all have that ability, not just one domain.
In the end, as has been said, I think they are far closer in power level than many think. That's the real value of this discourse IMO. Personally I feel that Sorcerer/Wizard is like Ranger/Fighter debate. In the end I feel that wizard and fighter have much more versatility overall and array of options, but if the sor/ranger is built to the specific campaign and/or DM's style it can rather easily be more powerful.
One thing I do like about sorcerers is that you know exactly what you are going to get and you don't have the DM determining your spell availability.
As for Leadership, it depends on the number of players. With a limited number of players it's a cool way to flesh out the party without detracting from the PCs. With a big group, with Summoned /Bound Creatures, Animal Companions, and Familiars it can turn a couple of encounters into an all night endeavor.
I like the Fighter/Ranger analogy. And I agree wizards and sorcerers are far closer in power than most people think.
Sure I can. if my campaign rules say that you can't have that spell, then it's NOT going to be on your spells known list.
I still get Spells Known as I raise in levels and don't have to worry about whether spell books get passed out as treasure. And I can't imagine any DM denying you a spell that was in the PFRPG, although they could. As a DM I wouldn't.
I still get Spells Known as I raise in levels and don't have to worry about whether spell books get passed out as treasure.
The wizard also gets free/automatic spells for his spellbook every level -- and while I haven't crunched the numbers on it, I suspect he doesn't stack up all that badly with just that (in terms of spells known) to even the human sorcerer who burns his favored class HP for extra spells known.
I mean, there certainly are arguments for angles where the sorcerer is better, but there's just no way this is -- unless you assume that the wizard has literally no chance of ever encountering any spellbook or arcane scroll other than his own -- and even then it's not that bad.
The wizard also gets free/automatic spells for his spellbook every level -- and while I haven't crunched the numbers on it, I suspect he doesn't stack up all that badly with just that (in terms of spells known) to even the human sorcerer who burns his favored class HP for extra spells known.I mean, there certainly are arguments for angles where the sorcerer is better, but there's just no way this is -- unless you assume that the wizard has literally no chance of ever encountering any spellbook or arcane scroll other than his own -- and even then it's not that bad.
Sorry, I'm just a little off topic. It's not that I think that it makes the sorcerer more powerful, I just prefer it. I played in a game where the DM was so afraid of what we'd do with enemy spell books that as a 7th Level Wizard I had 4 3rd Level Spells and 2 4th Level.
I'm not saying that makes the sorcerer better, it's more like saying I prefer spells like Bull's Strength, and Summon Monster over illusion spells because then I don't need to worry about qualifies as interacting with an illusion.
Sorry, I'm just a little off topic. It's not that I think that it makes the sorcerer more powerful, I just prefer it. I played in a game where the DM was so afraid of what we'd do with enemy spell books that as a 7th Level Wizard I had 4 3rd Level Spells and 2 4th Level.
I see what you're saying, but: doesn't that 7th level wizard with 4 3rds and 2 4th still have more control over what spells he knows / more spells known than the sorcerer with 2 and 0, respectively?
It's very clear that the human sorcerer favored class ability is WAYYYY overpowered. How'd they let that in?
The only way to balance a wizard properly would be to give the human wizard favored class a bonus spell that they can cast per day, not another spell in their book (which is essentially useless once you steal another wizard's book). Even then, I wouldn't allow the human sorcerer thing. It's just too good.
It's very clear that the human sorcerer favored class ability is WAYYYY overpowered. How'd they let that in?
The only way to balance a wizard properly would be to give the human wizard favored class a bonus spell that they can cast per day, not another spell in their book (which is essentially useless once you steal another wizard's book). Even then, I wouldn't allow the human sorcerer thing. It's just too good.
Eh. It's really good relative to other favored class abilities, but IMHO even sorcerer with it doesn't look all that broken relative to some of the alternatives.
YMMV!
I totally disagree.
The Sorcerer has plenty enough spells, already. What he lacks is skill points. That's his fundamental weakness (I've pointed this out before). The human sorcerer favored class ability further aggravates this problem.
Once again, I can't take you seriously.
I can take a spell, every level, that pretty much removes the need for a skill you only get to put one point into every level.
Need to use Diplomacy? Get charm person/monster/eagle's spleandor, etc.
Need to Jump (acrobatics)? Get the spell.
Need to intimidate? Get Fear.
I don't know what one point of skill is better than another choice of spell at the highest I can cast. There's none.
Eh. It's really good relative to other favored class abilities, but IMHO even sorcerer with it doesn't look all that broken relative to some of the alternatives.YMMV!
Relative to what alternatives? Having a few more hit points? False life.
I don't know what to say to you all if you really think that's not the very best favored class option out there, by far.
]Relative to what alternatives?
Playing a tougher character who isn't sorcerer. :)
And that brings us full circle.