Well, I don't have gripes with Seltyel at all.
Imho the whole swift actions things is excellent.
One of main 3.x problems was the whole bunch of abusable and cumulative stuff that kicked to the stars damage output and "you win" moves.
THIS is bad game design. One-shot winning moves and obscene damage caps ruin always fun.
Swift actions managing imo is funny and very tactical. I love it. I've made explicit request for this during beta playtest. I'm very happy jason.
ps. Seltyel's main purpose imho was only to show us high level PCs capstones and feats. Not to show us the usual powercombo.
I've never liked arcane spell failre anyway, but this is a nice backward compatible way to address it.
Swift actions managing imo is fun and very tactical. I love it.
I think people's gripe is that, once you get the capstone, there's no more managing: you never use any of your other options (arcane strike, arcane armor training) ever again (except on the rare uncrittable monster), because you're always hoping to get that quickened-spell-on-a-crit instead. It's not management so much as wholesale abandonment.
Swift actions managing imo is fun and very tactical. I love it.I think people's gripe is that, once you get the capstone, there's no more managing: you never use any of your other options (arcane strike, arcane armor training) ever again (except on the rare uncrittable monster), because you're always hoping to get that quickened-spell-on-a-crit instead. It's not management so much as wholesale abandonment.
Except that you can only cast spells that include the target in their effect. While this ends up being a great incentive for tons of Shocking Grasps at 1st level, at some point in each day you're going to realize you either a) don't have a spell you can use on the target, or b) don't want to waste your spell on the target.
To me, that doesn't end up with a wasted class feature- it ends with me having options.
On another note, this capstone basically encourages EKs to be crit builds. With 5 attacks a round (+1 haste) you can almost count on critting every other round with a high crit weapon (rapier/scimitar), or go TWF for 8 attacks a round (4 base, 1 haste, 3 TWF) and basically crit every round (estimating). Seems like a pretty good way to statistically control when you'll be able to cast your crit-spells. Yes, it's still up to chance, but you're pushing the odds in your favor.
EDIT: Sorry, hit submit prematurely.
Pathfinder version is much less powerful (but does not require you to expend a spell).They don't have much in common. The name (not especially a unique idea) and the fact that it's something spellcasters can use to boost damage (which the name already alludes to)
It's not a nerf if it's not the same Feat at all.
Something the caster can do to boost the melee power of his weapons, I would say the same thing only nerfed (or as close to it as they can get since Complete Warrior is not open source).
The PFRPG is meant to modify existing core (perhaps SRD) rules, no? The Arcane strike feat is not meant as a new version of a splatbook feat, it never was the intention. They just, as KY said, share the same name. Usage of splatbooks is discretionary anyway. It will be confusing if people use both feats and keep their names as is (the Complete arcane strike!).
DW
DW
To me, that doesn't end up with a wasted class feature - it ends with me having options.
I can see that, although to me there's a bigger issue: the fact that only the capstone does anything at all to synergize their spells and combat -- and that capstone powers might as well not exist because almost no one ever obtains them. I'd much rather they had something like "channel touch spell through sword x/day" based on their class level. Even the introduction of a feat like that would change the EldKt from a vague mishmash to a solid class.
Swift actions managing imo is fun and very tactical. I love it.I think people's gripe is that, once you get the capstone, there's no more managing: you never use any of your other options (arcane strike, arcane armor training) ever again (except on the rare uncrittable monster), because you're always hoping to get that quickened-spell-on-a-crit instead. It's not management so much as wholesale abandonment.
It seems to me that the Arcane armor feat shouldn't really get in the way of either the Arcane strike feat or the capstone ability since the former is about casting and the laters are about hitting things (or people, if you so choose), except in the (rare?) case of quickened spells.
It leaves us with the Arcane strike and the capstone, which both involve hitting things (or people, if one really deserves it). This can indeed be considered as a drawback, unless you could first roll all your attacks before determining damage, and only then, decide if you want to spend that swift action on the feat or on the capstone.
I don't think the rules prevent that actually.
DW
It seems to me that the Arcane armor feat shouldn't really get in the way of either the Arcane strike feat or the capstone ability since the former is about casting and the laters are about hitting things (or people, if you so choose), except in the (rare?) case of quickened spells...
I don't think the rules prevent that actually.
You've got to use your swift action to activate the Armor Training/Mastery, so as soon as you do that, Arcane Strike and the capstone power (or any other quickened spell, for that matter) are no longer available that round no matter what, because you get only one swift action/round (regardless of what you use it for). You don't get one "hitting" and one "defending" and one "casting" swift action per round, in other words -- by the rules (as silly as they may be) you get one, period.
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I am rather confused by this whole debate regarding arcane armor and the capstone. If you doing an attack, where you might crit, then you aren't casting a spell and wouldn't be activating your arcane armor anyway, so other then the fact that the bonus spell you get off will have spell failure, I don't think the two overlap at all.
As for it clashing with arcane strike, I can see that but I don't really see it as a conflict with the class. The Eldritch Knight's capstone is basically arcane strike but better. Is that any different then a bard picking a spell that gives a certain type of bonus and then later getting a song that gives the same bonus but better? It somewhat invalidates the previous choice, but its your choice to either wait for the better version or to have the ability early on and have to wait.
Plus, Arcane strike has the small bonus of being something you can use against those creatures that are immune to crits without worrying about messing up your ability to use the capstone later. A small thing, but its something that can keep it occasionally relevant.
You've got to use your swift action to activate the Armor Training/Mastery, so as soon as you do that, Arcane Strike and the capstone power (or any other quickened spell, for that matter) are no longer available that round no matter what, because you get only one swift action/round (regardless of what you use it for). You don't get one "hitting" and one "defending" and one "casting" swift action per round, in other words -- by the rules (as silly as they may be) you get one, period.It seems to me that the Arcane armor feat shouldn't really get in the way of either the Arcane strike feat or the capstone ability since the former is about casting and the laters are about hitting things (or people, if you so choose), except in the (rare?) case of quickened spells...
I don't think the rules prevent that actually.
I was trying to say what Tarlane has said, namely that some feats are used when attacking with a weapon, while others are used when casting a spell. Barring special cases (quickened spells, critting with a ray or touch spell), they wouldn't apply together anyway.
DW
Those special cases are the Elritch Knight's raison d'etre! Any armored caster is going to be getting a lot of mileage out of quickened spells. Both the feat and the capstone power have high enough costs that tacking a casting failure chance on top of them is like adding insult to injury. So I guess the main question is, why does Arcane Armor Training use an action?
Edit: Don't forget AoO. EldKts with Combat Reflexes get positively screwed by having to choose only one of their swift action abilities. If you pay for a feat, I personally feel you should get full use out of it, not have it stealthily subverted by your other feats (which you also paid for).
So I guess the main question is, why does Arcane Armor Training use an action?
That's a fair question.
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Well, an EK could prepare stilled spells for times when he crits and wants to avoid the ASF. It's a tradeoff since some spells he can't metamagic that way, but it does get around the one swift action thing.
Edit: I do agree with you Kirth. After all, we already have a precedent for arcane casters without spell failure in heavy armor in 3.5.
Well, an EK could prepare stilled spells for times when he crits and wants to avoid the ASF. It's a tradeoff since some spells he can't metamagic that way, but it does get around the one swift action thing.
Hey TriOmega, have you shipped out yet or are you still at home?
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Those special cases are the Elritch Knight's raison d'etre! Any armored caster is going to be getting a lot of mileage out of quickened spells.
I'm all for armored casters... I love the idea behind the Spellsword PrC and Duskblade (even if the execution was a bit iffy in places). That said, should we be looking at the ElK as a candidate for armored caster rather than a PrC geared specifically towards that role? In 3.5, the ElK wasn't really synonymous with armored caster builds, so why change that expectation in PF?
Now, I'd love to see a dedicated armor caster PrC class for PF.
So I guess the main question is, why does Arcane Armor Training use an action?
That's a good question. Personally, I don't think it should.
On another note, this capstone basically encourages EKs to be crit builds. With 5 attacks a round (+1 haste) you can almost count on critting every other round with a high crit weapon (rapier/scimitar), or go TWF for 8 attacks a round (4 base, 1 haste, 3 TWF) and basically crit every round (estimating). Seems like a pretty good way to statistically control when you'll be able to cast your crit-spells. Yes, it's still up to chance, but you're pushing the odds in your favor.
If I get it right, Spell Critical still requires to fulfill components, so if you go the TWF tree, you could only cast stilled spells.
Anyway, the problem, as I see it, it's not that EK is not a viable class or that the capstone is useless. The problem is that it leads to some specific builds: critical, TWF+still, two handed + Devastating (if it remains as in Beta), ranged / DEX based, etc. But you have no build that takes advantage of Arcane Strike + Arcane Armor + Spell Critical. EK "needs" a lot of feats, I mean you could have advantage of many feats, and they are not less useful than AS/AAT at lower levels: Toughness, Weapon Focus, Combat Casting, feat chains, quick draw (esp. useful if you are using TWF or a shield), Improved critical, any of the metamagic or the craft feats, etc. I would say that the EK has a wider selection of useful feats than any other class. So when you are at the time of chosing your next feat, why should you choose AS/AAT? You can take any of the other feats, which now are as useful as AS/AAT, BUT later they are not only an option, but an adition to your greater abilities. AS/AAT, instead, become nearly useless or, if you use them, may hamper SC.So is it great to have options? "Yes", if the alternative is not having options; but "No" if the alternative is taking all options at the same time. Some people said that you can't eat your pie and have it, but you can: it's just that it's not an arcane pie, but a critical pie.
What I really want to know:
What are the prereq to get into the class?
What I really want to know:
What are the prereq to get into the class?
These were the prerequisites in the Beta (I think they would be very similar, if not the same, in the final version):
"Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells."
Basically, a 1-level dip into any Warrior class (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger) and 5 levels of Wizard Class (or 6 levels of Sorcerer class, or 7 levels of Bard Class).
A Fighter 1/Wizard 5 will reach his EldKn capstone at 16th level - with the caster level of a 14th level Wizard, a 'virtual' 11th Fighter level for Feats Prerequisites (Greater Weapon Focus, for example, could be taken), 4 bonus Combat Feats (1 from Fighter, 3 from EldKn), bonus Scribe Scrolls + 1 Metamagic/Item Creation feat (from Wizard levels) and 3 iterative attacks from his BaB +13 (1 from Fighter, 2 from Wizard, 10 from EldKn).
As an hybrid combo, it's not bad (of course, YMMV).
The only odd thing is, in Beta (but it seems it's true in Final, too) the levels from EldKn are 'virtual FIGHTER levels' (also virtual 'arcane' levels, but let's put that away for these examples), so a Ranger 2/Wizard 5/EldKn 10 would have the ability to pick Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus (as a Fighter 10), but it would have only the Combat Style of a Ranger 2 (and so, for example, only Two-Weapon Fighting, unless he picks the other feats as usual - but those feats would need their regular prerequisites)
Just my 2c.
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It seems to me a lot of people are still kind of hung up on Seltyiel's build even though they might not think they are. Not EVERY Eldritch Knight is going to be walking around, strutting out with Arcane Armor feats to use as a swift action. Maybe they will ... maybe they won't!
Bracers of Armor sure are awesome without dealing with arcane spell failure. Even some Wizard's Robes while you worry abour your intelligence/charisma and dex instead if you want to keep your ac as high as possible.
Another thing, everyone DOES realize that to get to the Eldritch Knight's capstone ability you have to be a MINIMUM level of 16 right? Now sure if you're starting OUT at level 16, you might run into this problem playing an E. Knight when looking at the arcane armor training feat but if you DON'T ... then don't you think helping you GET to level 16 is an awesome feat? And it won't ve completely useless when you get to that level if you find some nice leather armor or something you wanna try on (though I'm still partial to bracers).
Anyway, I think the write up was good at what it did: Showing us a bunch of new stuff to get excited about, whether done in an optimal way or not.
Another thing, everyone DOES realize that to get to the Eldritch Knight's capstone ability you have to be a MINIMUM level of 16 right? Now sure if you're starting OUT at level 16, you might run into this problem playing an E. Knight when looking at the arcane armor training feat but if you DON'T ... then don't you think helping you GET to level 16 is an awesome feat?
Sorry, but I've never seen players take feats that become redundent for them at higher levels. If they did, there wouldn't have been a need to rewrite toughness, which is good for 1st level, but that's about it.
Anyway, I think the write up was good at what it did: Showing us a bunch of new stuff to get excited about, whether done in an optimal way or not.
As I said, theres optimal and "doesn't work together". It would be unoptimal for the wizard to be sporting full-plate despite not being proficent and suffering ASF, does that mean the character is automatically more interesting because he does? No.
And remember, part of the point of these previews is to show off the changes, and as it stands one of the bigger changes in this preview shows just how difficult it can be to combine the warrior/spellcaster abilities (in this case, since both abilities require swift actions to activate).
Think of it this way, what's the point in taking a feat to reduce ASF if you can't use it? In this case, the times when this particular EK will be most effective (scoring a crit) he can't use the feat at the same time.
It would be unoptimal for the wizard to be sporting full-plate despite not being proficent and suffering ASF, does that mean the character is automatically more interesting because he does? No.
You wouldn't show an iconic fighter with every physcial ability score as 8 and
That is some serious hyperbole there. Having to choose between swift actions at 20th level is comparable to a fighter taking a -1 penalty to attacks, damage, and all other rolls? Or a wizard with a 35% chance to fail at casting every spell?
I've seen a couple of standard PHB battle mages walking around in mithril chain. Their spells fizzle from time to time. Stuff like that happens.
You wouldn't show an iconic fighter...using his/her fighter bonus feats to take weapon focus for weapons he/she doesn't even use.
Why on earth not? This happens all the time with organically built characters. The dwarf starts out at 1st level thinking he'll be relying on a dwarven waraxe, and two levels later he finds a sweet +1 flaming greataxe that he likes a lot better. But she will have cut down dozens of zombies with that waraxe: that +1 bonus may have kept her alive.
In my experience, these "optimized characters" have a lower life expectancy than organically grown characters, or characters designed as if they had been organically grown. No plan survives contact with the enemy, and while "optimized" characters are highly planned, organic characters have survived lots of contact with the enemy. "Optimized" characters tend to focus on perfecting one or two tricks, and become worthless if their precious weapon gets sundered or an imp steals their spellbook.
An eldritch knight would have to survive some hundreds of encounters before getting that capstone ability. His entire feat and skill selection is based around one ability he may get after years of game or real time, and not what will get him through the dungeon he's currently in?
That is some serious hyperbole there. Having to choose between swift actions at 20th level...
Actaully it can be gained at 16th level. It's not a core class, forcing you to go through 20 levels before giving a capstone ability, it's a 10-level class, meaning after 10 levels you gain the capstone, ECL 20 or not.
Or a wizard with a 35% chance to fail at casting every spell?
Yes actually, 10% is alot when you factor in that compared to a wizard, a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Elritch Knight 10 is going to have quite a few spells per day less than a 20th level Wizard. Besides, at least the 20th level wizard's capstone features don't make feats designed to boost the wizard less useful. In this case, the feat specifically designed for armoured casters doesn't work with the Warrior/Mage Presitge Class capstone feature.
Why on earth not? This happens all the time with organically built characters. The dwarf starts out at 1st level thinking he'll be relying on a dwarven waraxe, and two levels later he finds a sweet +1 flaming greataxe that he likes a lot better. But she will have cut down dozens of zombies with that waraxe: that +1 bonus may have kept her alive.
So your've actually played a fighter who takes nothing but feats whcih only function with weapons he doesn't use? If you want to make a point, fine, but don't exarggerate.
In my experience, these "optimized characters" have a lower life expectancy than organically grown characters, or characters designed as if they had been organically grown.
Heh, yeah, some maybe. Ever tried taking on a power-built clericzilla? What about the "King of Smack" build?
What about Pun-Pun? A build designed purely for the purposes of power-gaming (the author even admits so and says he/she thinks it should never be used). Does an "organic" character stand a chance against him? No. In fact, the worst part of that power build is that even if you were to design an ability specifically to take him down (such as an instant death spell, no save, ignores resistance etc) he himself can get it as well (then use all manner of ability combinations to make sure he uses on your PC's first). Again, if you want to make a point, go ahead, but don't exaggerrate. Players trying to power-build might still not make the most powerful PC's, or even ones matching "Organic ones", but to say that the majority of power-builds don't match up to Organic ones is just plain false. It's called "Power-Gamming" for a reason.
No plan survives contact with the enemy, and while "optimized" characters are highly planned, organic characters have survived lots of contact with the enemy.
Just because most power-builds occur at high levels doesn't mean they all do. Again, Pun-Pun is acheviable at level 1.
"Optimized" characters tend to focus on perfecting one or two tricks, and become worthless if their precious weapon gets sundered or an imp steals their spellbook.
Actually, one trick ponies function on single tricks. Have you ever actually looked at some of the most powerful builds out there? Generally the better ones involve tactics for a variety of situations.
"An eldritch knight would have to survive some hundreds of encounters before getting that capstone ability. His entire feat and skill selection is based around one ability he may get after years of game or real time, and not what will get him through the dungeon he's currently in?
And here lies the problem, again. If these abilities which get him so far are that useful, what real good is the capstone abiilty? If, in order for it to work realibly, you have to give up abilities which got you as far as you have, is it really somthing to be considered a good ability?
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I'd much rather they had something like "channel touch spell through sword x/day" based on their class level. Even the introduction of a feat like that would change the EldKt from a vague mishmash to a solid class.
Or a spell-storing ability, they could set up, before combat, and release when required? Maybe on a bonded weapon, like the kensai?
I'd much rather they had something like "channel touch spell through sword x/day" based on their class level. Even the introduction of a feat like that would change the EldKt from a vague mishmash to a solid class.Or a spell-storing ability, they could set up, before combat, and release when required? Maybe on a bonded weapon, like the kensai?
That would work, too. But to have a class with some martial ability, and some magical ability, and absolutely no way to synergize them except for a couple of lame-ish feats and a capstone ability that most people will retire before attaining... I don't get it. All it would take is one feat or class feature (channel spell, or store spell, or smiting spell, or call it whatever you want) to make the eldritch knight a viable arcane warrior instead of the random mismatch it is.
In our 3.5 games, no one ever took EldKt. They'd go battle sorcerer/abjurant cheesewhore (up to BAB +16, 20th level casting ability) or duskblade. In the former case, they had a super-duper-AC and quickened defensive spells for actual use in combat, while fighting. In the latter case, they could channel spells through their weapon. Both allowed excellent martial/arcane synergy (as opposed to almost none for the EldKt).
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Another thing, everyone DOES realize that to get to the Eldritch Knight's capstone ability you have to be a MINIMUM level of 16 right? Now sure if you're starting OUT at level 16, you might run into this problem playing an E. Knight when looking at the arcane armor training feat but if you DON'T ... then don't you think helping you GET to level 16 is an awesome feat?Sorry, but I've never seen players take feats that become redundent for them at higher levels. If they did, there wouldn't have been a need to rewrite toughness, which is good for 1st level, but that's about it.
I think you're in danger of exaggerating a bit here. There is a world of difference between the toughness feat which WAS only good for like the 1st or 2nd level and this feat, which does NOT interfere with another ability until level 16. Take the Pathfinder APs for instance. You won't hit level 16 until the very last adventure path ... that's HUGE. So from levels 1 - 15 the feat could actually be useful. That's MOST of the career generally speaking.
And I don't see how it doesn't work ... it works fine. He can choose to use it or he can choose not to. The Paizo crew has already said this was not meant to be optimal but show off stuff. It DID. Maybe you won't use it for your Eldritch Knight if you make one and maybe most people won't but it did show us what COULD happen if you chose it.
In the end, people are still just complaining about HIS build. It's just starting to sound a little childish is all and I hate when these previews break down into crap like that. Why can't people just look at it like it's meant to be viewed, seeing neat stuff and thinking "Oh cool, I can use that like this or like this later ..."
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I think you're in danger of exaggerating a bit here. There is a world of difference between the toughness feat which WAS only good for like the 1st or 2nd level and this feat, which does NOT interfere with another ability until level 16. Take the Pathfinder APs for instance. You won't hit level 16 until the very last adventure path ... that's HUGE. So from levels 1 - 15 the feat could actually be useful. That's MOST of the career generally speaking.
I can help. I'd play a Eldritch Knight in the Rise of the Runelords Ap. Using beta barbarian and undead bloodline sorcerer to qualify. Then played the 3.5 Eldritch Knight. A good combo, that got me the 'vampire' I otherwise couldn't play.
In the end, people are still just complaining about HIS build. It's just starting to sound a little childish is all and I hate when these previews break down into crap like that. Why can't people just look at it like it's meant to be viewed, seeing neat stuff and thinking "Oh cool, I can use that like this or like this later ..."
+1
I find Bracers of Armor generally a little more expensive than I'd like. Fortunately, I'm all for some non-core love, and a +1 Mithral Twilight Chainshirt negates ASF completely and gives me a +5 to AC for only 5100 gold. And I can wear it under my stylized leather overcoat if I want to look like an illustration I've got lying around. Frodo wore his mithral chainshirt underneat his clothes and no one noticed until he got non-skewered by a cave troll, so I don't see why Seltyel here couldn't be wearing one under his leather costume.
So that saves one swift action, and that just means that you can't use Arcane Strike and Spell Critical together, which means you use Arcane Strike those times you don't expect to be using Spell Critical, or you kick your swift action in between attack rolls and damage rolls if your DM will let you.
For what its worth, I can understand the arcane armor training taking a swift action and making sense . . . you spend a few extra seconds casting the spell more carefully, so that your armor doesn't get in the way.
Don't forget as a wizard he can still have a completely different spell list tomorrow.
I find Bracers of Armor generally a little more expensive than I'd like. Fortunately, I'm all for some non-core love, and a +1 Mithral Twilight Chainshirt negates ASF completely and gives me a +5 to AC for only 5100 gold. And I can wear it under my stylized leather overcoat if I want to look like an illustration I've got lying around. Frodo wore his mithral chainshirt underneat his clothes and no one noticed until he got non-skewered by a cave troll, so I don't see why Seltyel here couldn't be wearing one under his leather costume.
Well, I don't think Frodo wore his shirt open down to his navel. (At least, I sure hope he didn't. :P) Seltyiel ought to take some kind of AC penalty for that. It's like Achilles' chest. "Mwahahaha! I am invulnerable! I am protected by +4 armor! .... Well, everywhere except directly over my vital organs anyway." It's the male version of the chainmail bikini. Seltyiel must be the Pathfinderized Hennet.
You know, there's been a lot of talk about taking feats that become useless by the end of your adventuring campaign. That's kinda how I always saw the feat Extend Spell.
Extend spell was amazing early in the game for making hour/level spells last all day and round/level spells last all of combat. But by the time you reach level 10+, the metamagic feat nears uselessness. Hour/level spells already last all day, round/level spells already last all of combat, and minute/level spells MIGHT last until the next combat, IF you're in a dungeon (or similar), but your chances are just as good not extending the spell. It ends up being amazing on things like Charm Person, Gaeas, and Mage Armor (2 day mage armor!), but past that... not so much.
I realize that some of you might disagree, but this feat vs. feature isn't exactly precedent for something that nears uselessness at higher levels.
I find Bracers of Armor generally a little more expensive than I'd like. Fortunately, I'm all for some non-core love, and a +1 Mithral Twilight Chainshirt negates ASF completely and gives me a +5 to AC for only 5100 gold. And I can wear it under my stylized leather overcoat if I want to look like an illustration I've got lying around. Frodo wore his mithral chainshirt underneat his clothes and no one noticed until he got non-skewered by a cave troll, so I don't see why Seltyel here couldn't be wearing one under his leather costume.
So that saves one swift action, and that just means that you can't use Arcane Strike and Spell Critical together, which means you use Arcane Strike those times you don't expect to be using Spell Critical, or you kick your swift action in between attack rolls and damage rolls if your DM will let you.
You only get one swifty per round so you either miss your arcane strike for most of the attacks or just get it on your last attack... to be honest I think this is a workable way of doing it. Use your arcane strike on standard action attack that doesn't critical and on the last attack of every full round action if it doesn't critical.
Your DM should be Ok with this swift actions can be used any time during your turn. But since attacks are sequential you won't know until that last attack is rolled...
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Well, I don't think Frodo wore his shirt open down to his navel. (At least, I sure hope he didn't. :P) Seltyiel ought to take some kind of AC penalty for that. It's like Achilles' chest. "Mwahahaha! I am invulnerable! I am protected by +4 armor! .... Well, everywhere except directly over my vital organs anyway." It's the male version of the chainmail bikini. Seltyiel must be the Pathfinderized Hennet.
The AC penalty is offset by the combined protective thoughts from the hive-mind of the yaoi-fangirl community.
Right, so from what I remember correctly, in Beta you got what was basically 1/day spell like abilities that relied on Int and not Cha every other level, which represented your "bonus" spell for being a specialist (it actually worked very similarly to the Domain Wizard from the UA). Then in final they went back to the 3.5 version of specialists, where you get a bonus slot for any spell of that school.
They were not spell-like abilities. Otherwise, dead on.
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Can you use the Paladian class, instead of the Fighter class? My
husband says, no, but, I do see why not, he said you could not get
the fighter feats, opinions, please?
Tell your husband he's being silly. Even if you couldn't take fighter only feats you could still get the bonus feats, not all combat feats are fighter only. Yes you can use the paladin class. The bonus feats for his class aren't fighter bonus feats, just bonus feats. And Diverse Training specifically says that if you have no levels in fighter, your EK level is considered your fighter level, so if you were a paladin 4/wizard 5/eldritch knight 5 to qualify for fighter feats you would treat yourself as a fighter 5. and I have the final in my hands so trust me on this.
Tell your husband he's being silly. Even if you couldn't take fighter only feats you could still get the bonus feats, not all combat feats are fighter only. Yes you can use the paladin class. The bonus feats for his class aren't fighter bonus feats, just bonus feats. And Diverse Training specifically says that if you have no levels in fighter, your EK level is considered your fighter level, so if you were a paladin 4/wizard 5/eldritch knight 5 to qualify for fighter feats you would treat yourself as a fighter 5. and I have the final in my hands so trust me on this.Can you use the Paladian class, instead of the Fighter class? My
husband says, no, but, I do see why not, he said you could not get
the fighter feats, opinions, please?
Now who's being silly? Who would ever pair Paladin and Wizard?
:)
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Tell your husband he's being silly. Even if you couldn't take fighter only feats you could still get the bonus feats, not all combat feats are fighter only. Yes you can use the paladin class. The bonus feats for his class aren't fighter bonus feats, just bonus feats. And Diverse Training specifically says that if you have no levels in fighter, your EK level is considered your fighter level, so if you were a paladin 4/wizard 5/eldritch knight 5 to qualify for fighter feats you would treat yourself as a fighter 5. and I have the final in my hands so trust me on this.Can you use the Paladian class, instead of the Fighter class? My
husband says, no, but, I do see why not, he said you could not get
the fighter feats, opinions, please?Now who's being silly? Who would ever pair Paladin and Wizard?
:)
I paired wizard with opposition schools conjuration, necromancy, and evocation... so what do I know about making normal combos. I play weird characters so that would be perfectly reasonable for me.
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Tell your husband he's being silly. Even if you couldn't take fighter only feats you could still get the bonus feats, not all combat feats are fighter only. Yes you can use the paladin class. The bonus feats for his class aren't fighter bonus feats, just bonus feats. And Diverse Training specifically says that if you have no levels in fighter, your EK level is considered your fighter level, so if you were a paladin 4/wizard 5/eldritch knight 5 to qualify for fighter feats you would treat yourself as a fighter 5. and I have the final in my hands so trust me on this.Can you use the Paladian class, instead of the Fighter class? My
husband says, no, but, I do see why not, he said you could not get
the fighter feats, opinions, please?Thank you, you just made my day!
PS He says he was basing it off the Beta, but, you get all the weapon/ armor requirements from Paladin as well as Fighter, so, it still
did not make sense. But, thank you, Knight, you, as I said just
made my day/week!
Glad to be of service and tell him even in the beta you were right ;)
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Tell your husband he's being silly. Even if you couldn't take fighter only feats you could still get the bonus feats, not all combat feats are fighter only. Yes you can use the paladin class. The bonus feats for his class aren't fighter bonus feats, just bonus feats. And Diverse Training specifically says that if you have no levels in fighter, your EK level is considered your fighter level, so if you were a paladin 4/wizard 5/eldritch knight 5 to qualify for fighter feats you would treat yourself as a fighter 5. and I have the final in my hands so trust me on this.Can you use the Paladian class, instead of the Fighter class? My
husband says, no, but, I do see why not, he said you could not get
the fighter feats, opinions, please?Thank you, you just made my day!
PS He says he was basing it off the Beta, but, you get all the weapon/ armor requirements from Paladin as well as Fighter, so, it still
did not make sense. But, thank you, Knight, you, as I said just
made my day/week!
Glad to be of service and tell him even in the beta you were right ;) even in the beta you could take the class, you just couldn't qualify for fighter bonus feats depending on their interpretation of diverse training. But remember, not all combat feats are fighter feats
You could gain the feats just not the fighter only feats. Unless your level in the Prc counted as "fighter" levels
Heck, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/EK x was a reasonably decent combo back in 3.5, really. It wasn't great, but it did give you some nice synergy.
What about Pun-Pun? A build designed purely for the purposes of power-gaming (the author even admits so and says he/she thinks it should never be used). Does an "organic" character stand a chance against him? No.
If Pun-Pun made an appearance in the campaign of any DM I know, the COMMONERS would turn him into a bloody mass of scales and cracked bones on the floor. To say nothing of the PCs. Any organically built PC would find Pun-Pun no more than comic relief.
Because even the most trivial application of Rule 0 would make that horrible pastiche of broken rules cobbled together from the diarrhea of splat books Wizards put out fall apart. Besides which, I don't think we have ever played a campaign in the Forgotten Realms in 3e.
So your've actually played a fighter who takes nothing but feats whcih only function with weapons he doesn't use? If you want to make a point, fine, but don't exarggerate.
Um...what? You originally said one wouldn't show an iconic fighter using fighter bonus feats to take Weapon Focus in weapons he doesn't use.
I pointed out that it's entirely common for fighters to take Weapon Focus at 1st level and later take Weapon Focus for another weapon on when he gets some phat l00t. Thus having Weapon Focus for a weapon he doesn't rely on much anymore.
That's completely different from "taking nothing but feats which only function with weapons he doesn't use". Who's exaggerating here?
Retraining rules were in PHB II, IIRC; I don't think we've ever used rules for that.