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Hurray! A ring of regeneration isn't totally useless any more! (Although it's still probably overpriced.)Not really. Yeah, it is only fast healing 1 (effectively), but it can be shared among the party to quickly recover from a major fight. At 90,000 gp this is a good party item purchase that is primarly worn by a front line combatant.A thought the ring of regeneration was one of those that had to attune for 24 hours before it kicked in?
Looked up the old SRD:
This white gold ring continually allows a living wearer to heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5 minutes. If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell. In either case, only damage taken while wearing the ring is regenerated.
So the rate of regen is increased, but I suspect the last clause about "only regenerating damage take while wearing the ring" holds.
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If you are playing your gish properly, you would have taken the (new) Arcane Strike feat, which I notice is neatly avoided in the posted build, even though this 20th-level melee character's melee damage is a pathetic 1d8+7.As opposed to a pathetic 1d8+12? Whoop de do. (I'm not very impressed by the Arcane Strike feat.)
Since he has a Caster Level of 15, it would be only 1d8+11.
And as all kinds of bonus damage, Arcane Strike is best when combined with many attacks. For a TWF character, it's a rather good feat.Seltiyiel's main problem is his spell list. He has nearly no buff spells and spells like 'form of the dragon' make many of his feats useless. He should have used some of his slots for spells like 'greater magic weapon'.
He has the feats of a fighter and the spells of an evoker. His classes don't interact. Even without levels of fighter or eldritch knight it's possible to create a viable melee wizard (although I would probably prefer a sorcerer), but Seltiyiel isn't. Evocation isn't very useful to augment the fighting capacity of a character and with enchantment and necromancy as forbidden schools, he has cut off himself of useful spells like 'false life' or 'heroism'. Although he could have used a few of his low level slots for those spells under the new rules.
Seltiyiel's main problem is his spell list.
I don't really want to get sucked into the "Iconic isn't charOp" argument, but few wizards I have ever seen had very much control over the spells that ended up in their spellbooks.
Anyway, I haven't seen many guesses: what's ? Experience Awards? Rule 0? Have fun? The GM's always right? Maneuvers?
..the OGL?
Well, if Arcane Strike isn't for a gish, then who is it for?
My point is, if you take two core feats that are obviously directed at gish builds, and then take 10 levels in the core prestige class that defines what a gish is, you end up having to jump through hoops to use your capstone ability. It's not like I'm pointing at material scattered throughout multiple sources, this is all right in core.
No one sees a problem with this? Maybe a little?
On swift actions and Arcane Armor Training:
I think somewhere in the play test (though I didn't get a lot of a chance to use it) I made some comments about swift actions as a resource.
Having an action like this that is somewhat 'required' is very annoying at the table. It very, very often gets overlooked or is very easy to 'forget', either intentionally or unintentionally. It's a tedious feat to use.
As well, it isn't very backwards compatible with many of the non-core swift action spells.
I'll probably house rule that it takes no action to use, with possibly some other downside that I haven't considered yet, such as -1 AC or increasing the check penalty, or require that in order to make the precise movements for spells, you have to move slower, thus taking a hit to movement speed.
I addressed this very problem close to 9 months ago, and it was obviously ignored, or not seen as a problem.
If you are playing your gish properly, you would have taken the (new) Arcane Strike feat, which I notice is neatly avoided in the posted build, even though this 20th-level melee character's melee damage is a pathetic 1d8+7.
If you're attacking, your swift action is sucked up by Arcane Strike. If you're casting, your swift action is sucked up to avoid arcane spell failure. So, if you're doing anything that you're supposed to be doing as a gish, then you'll never be able to use Eldritch Knight's capstone ability.
I am seriously disappointed nothing was done about this, as I am a huge fan of gish characters. I don't know why I'm not allowed to have a useful swift action because I decided to play an optimal gish.
I agree with you. Being also a gish-fan, I hoped Paizo would fix what I considered a design error. But it seems they haven't.
Some people think that EK should be using bracers of armor; then which is the role of the Arcane Armor feat? Same for Arcane Strike. It is useless if you get EK 10th, unless you think your capstone ability is worse than a feat.
I think I hate this review. Not because the Eldrtich Knight is a bad class, I like it. But because of the use of the term "gish" by posters....
I like the class, like it alot. Seems strong but has issues as it should. Think it's an odd build but that can be said of many iconics. I can see this as a 4 person groups main caster, he's got plenty of spell power, he also isn't helpless in melee. I wouldn't take him toe to toe with any melee class but then again he will do some funky burst damage from time to time that could really do some interesting things.
Well, if Arcane Strike isn't for a gish, then who is it for?
Well, like I said, I don't think it's a very good feat.
I addressed this very problem close to 9 months ago, and it was obviously ignored, or not seen as a problem.
If you are playing your XXXX properly, you would have taken the (new) Arcane Strike feat, which I notice is neatly avoided in the posted build, even though this 20th-level melee character's melee damage is a pathetic 1d8+7.
If you're attacking, your swift action is sucked up by Arcane Strike. If you're casting, your swift action is sucked up to avoid arcane spell failure. So, if you're doing anything that you're supposed to be doing as a XXXX, then you'll never be able to use Eldritch Knight's capstone ability.
I am seriously disappointed nothing was done about this, as I am a huge fan of gish characters. I don't know why I'm not allowed to have a useful swift action because I decided to play an optimal gish.
I agree with you. Being also a XXXX-fan, I hoped Paizo would fix what I considered a design error. But it seems they haven't.
Some people think that EK should be using bracers of armor; then which is the role of the Arcane Armor feat? Same for Arcane Strike. It is useless if you get EK 10th, unless you think your capstone ability is worse than a feat.
I think arcane armor feat does too little I admit. Personally I'd like it to allow light armor casting with no failure chance, might be too much but I would like that.
Still with this character a 10% chance of spell failure isn't the end of the world, sure it will happen from time to time but most of the times it will not be an issue. It doesn't crush his "cap stone" ability either it just makes it a little less automatic.
((Hell we've long ago house ruled elves can cast in elven chain with 0 spell failure chance but we're 1st ed folk so it makes sense to us. I am still not over being able to enchant elven chain....))
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Seltiyiel's main problem is his spell list.I don't really want to get sucked into the "Iconic isn't charOp" argument, but few wizards I have ever seen had very much control over the spells that ended up in their spellbooks.
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all
0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited
school or schools, if any; see School Powers) plus three
1st-level spells of his choice. For each point of Intelligence
bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional
1st-level spell of his choice. At each new wizard level, he
gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can
cast (based on his new wizard level) for his spellbook. At any
time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards'
spellbooks to his own.
Are you saying, the player can't pick the spells himself?
On swift actions and Arcane Armor Training:
I think somewhere in the play test (though I didn't get a lot of a chance to use it) I made some comments about swift actions as a resource.
Having an action like this that is somewhat 'required' is very annoying at the table. It very, very often gets overlooked or is very easy to 'forget', either intentionally or unintentionally. It's a tedious feat to use.
As well, it isn't very backwards compatible with many of the non-core swift action spells.
I'll probably house rule that it takes no action to use, with possibly some other downside that I haven't considered yet, such as -1 AC or increasing the check penalty, or require that in order to make the precise movements for spells, you have to move slower, thus taking a hit to movement speed.
How is it different from needing a move action to reload a crossbow? I happen to like feats using a swift action. It's similar to the boosts from the Book of Nine Swords. If you take swift spells from none core books you might as well take the twilight mithral shirt. It doesn't even need a feat to use and is also usable by sorcerers and wizards.
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Well, if Arcane Strike isn't for a gish, then who is it for?
I think the assumption that Arcane Armor and Arcane Strike are for fighter/magic-users is erroneous.
They have already shown the wizard iconic using Arcane Strike ... and I've had non optimized wizards use Arcane Armor at low levels in order to not scream "look here I'm a wizard ... see no armor".
Some people think that EK should be using bracers of armor; then which is the role of the Arcane Armor feat? Same for Arcane Strike. It is useless if you get EK 10th, unless you think your capstone ability is worse than a feat.
Right, what's the point in taking a Feat if it won't interact optimally with all your abilities once you reach 20th level? I mean, if it KEPT YOU ALIVE or something in the mean time, that's really just mocking your char-Op ancestors even more...
/sarc
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I think using bracers of armor instead of wearing normal armor can "save" you a swift action. As someone mention above, this iconic build isn't the most optimal build, so feel free to build your own character.
Seriously, what this character needed was a keen scimitar instead of a keen longsword. 1d6 with a 15-20 crit rate and his crit feats is a much better use of his resources than arcane strike. Also second those who have him wearing no armor, then trade arcane armor training for quicken metamagic and have a few quicken shields on your character that way you get all of your swift critical goodness with no feats for providing minor bonuses.
For those querying his equipment, I think that picture could quite easily represent just a leather raincoat.
Purely for looking cool, in front of the goth chicks.The bracers of armor could be underneath.
Could he then have the 'etherealness' quality on some other item?
And given the curve on that sword, I have no problem accepting it counting as a scimitar.
Another very interesting preview.
Thanks so much to allow us to get a feel for the changes coming up.
To me, the presented EK is a weird combination of feats and abilities, but it still allows us to see more of the new fighter feats (I love, btw).
Most of us can see different ways to make this character slightly different and more to our taste. I think that's a great sign!
The buzz around the release is actually a nice feeling, as we've seen so many ideas integrated (and some not, for good or evil, according to whom the question is asked) and had or read very interesting and focused discussions on the game we love. It's going to feel weird and empty when it will start to fade.
And regarding the swift actions, while it is true that it requires some bookkeeping, I like that, for most cases and ESPECIALLY for swift spells (which I despise), it involves a choice and a sacrifice. To me, it makes it more enjoyable and tactical.
DW
Director of Game Design
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Alright folks. Putting together the iconics has been fun, but I have spent the entire time staying true to the art and as true as possible to their 3.5 stat blocks. That means that in some cases, the samples do not have the best possible combination of feats, gear, and class abilities. That is OK. Most organically built characters end up that way, and these posts are not designed to show you the best way to make a character.
They are designed to show off some aspects of the rules. In this case, the eldritch knight prestige class and some of the high level, fighter only feats that I did not get to show off in the first preview. Lets keep it on this topic. Save the CharOp discussions for another day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Still with this character a 10% chance of spell failure isn't the end of the world, sure it will happen from time to time but most of the times it will not be an issue. It doesn't crush his "cap stone" ability either it just makes it a little less automatic.
Given that most times it should even be an issue, is when he's casting 2 spells/round (one swift or Quickened), or he's getting to cast a bonus action, down his sword-blade, into some sap he just critted, I don't see a problem with there being a small failure chance, related to ignoring an instruction every wizard has drummed into them they should not do (namely, wear armour).
I found the eldritch knight preview thought provoking. I have a similar character (Ftr5/Wiz5/Bladesinger10) to convert. While my character's focus is differenct, transmuter instead of evoker, it did give me some ideas on what and how to convert.
Jason,
Great job on giving us the previews and an insight into how PFRPG works.
Doug
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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RPGs have always been about resource management, OGL just as much.
You have multiple options to 'burn' that swift action on. Two with the 'build' given, or three with the Arcane Strike feat. You now have more options and have to make a decision. If you use an immediate action (either for a spell or a feat we've not seen yet) you've consumed your swift action for the next round. Is that to be an issue as well?
If Seytel goes ahead and burns his swift action to get a wall of force up w.o failure, then he's not expecting to crit. If he holds it for a swing, he's gambling that he'll hit and have a chance to do lots of damage. If he decides to arcane strike, then he'll be trading that action for a small but reliable bump in damage.
I'm not regretting that he can't drop his ASF to 0, bump his damage and drop a chain lightening on some guy on a crit in one round.
Most of us can see different ways to make this character slightly different and more to our taste. I think that's a great sign!
Yeah, am I the only one who wants to make a Fighter/Illusionist who uses his magic to mess with people's heads and make it difficult for them to figure out who's real? Yeah, I know that it would fail against a quarter of the enemies that you'd fight but that's not the point. :)
And regarding the swift actions, while it is true that it requires some bookkeeping, I like that, for most cases and ESPECIALLY for swift spells (which I despise), it involves a choice and a sacrifice. To me, it makes it more enjoyable and tactical.
We'll likely play it as an always on ability that you can swap out for a different one if you'd like. Either that or I'll bust out an idea from Descent and have cards or tokens that represent different swift actions that you just lay out infront of you when it's in play.
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Alright folks. Putting together the iconics has been fun, but I have spent the entire time staying true to the art and as true as possible to their 3.5 stat blocks. That means that in some cases, the samples do not have the best possible combination of feats, gear, and class abilities. That is OK. Most organically built characters end up that way, and these posts are not designed to show you the best way to make a character.
It's fine by me, too.
In the interests of continuing this trend, I do hope there will be more options for unloved combinations of armour and weapons. There are many examples out there, of evocative and beautiful artwork and miniatures, which, unfortunately fail to match the 'reality' of the D&D game, which holds that there are three or four no-brainer choices, and anyone picking the rest is some kind of no0b, asking to be dead by dinnertime.
And that's a shame.
Many times, I've picked out a picture or figure, and said 'That stance and expression would totally suit your PC.', only to be met with 'Ewww, he's wearing banded mail! Nobody wears banded mail, after level 2! Take it away!'. Or 'I'm not wasting a feat on a sub-optimal weapon!'.
Let's free up more artwork and figures, by:
- making the penalties for medium armour a worthwhile trade for the AC,
- specifically, making more variants on hide armour, to match what creature it came from,
- having rules for piecemeal armour, so those 'scavengers' and 'platemail bikini-nuns' can get some love,
- dropping the nonsensical 'exotic' status of various simple and martial peasant weapons, simply because they come from a land analagous to Asia.
Sort of on topic,
I just want to say that I really appreciate that the iconics are not optimized.
I find that optimized characters are an interesting thought experiment and a diversionary pleasure, but optimization is a side dish. I never play that way, and I want to see character examples that are "realistic" like that.
So, thanks!
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I don't like optimizing characters myself. (Unless it is a very intelligent character that would optimize... lol). If I have a character who likes wearing leather armor, and she finds a suit of chain shirt+1, I'll probably keep the leather armor, just cause.
I had a cleric who found a +2 sword one time, which would have dealt more damage than my double morningstar, but I had a specific idea in my mind for that character... Such fond memories of him. Volan of Sunforest, Cleric/Monk of Solaria, reaching for the Acolyte of Flame prestige class..., and the Shining Light of Pelor PrC at the same time. (both from the same Dragon magazine).
I stuck to the original concept... however metaweak it was. :)
I've seen DMs take away the wizard's spellbook for a couple of sessions after being captured (they can still do that, you know).
I haven't had a DM lop off a wizard's fingers yet in 3e, but it's nice knowing that a PC could wear a ring of regeneration on his toe.
If you are playing your gish properly, you would have taken the (new) Arcane Strike feat, which I notice is neatly avoided in the posted build, even though this 20th-level melee character's melee damage is a pathetic 1d8+7.
I believe the axiomatic and shocking burst would be adding a bit more damage than that (although I would think that there would be a +1d6 electricity on the weapon line).
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I think I hate this review. Not because the Eldrtich Knight is a bad class, I like it. But because of the use of the term "gish" by posters....
I like the class, like it alot. Seems strong but has issues as it should. Think it's an odd build but that can be said of many iconics. I can see this as a 4 person groups main caster, he's got plenty of spell power, he also isn't helpless in melee. I wouldn't take him toe to toe with any melee class but then again he will do some funky burst damage from time to time that could really do some interesting things.
Yeah "Gish" should be left back on the WotC boards as Githyanki are IP. If you aren't a githyanki fighter/spellcaster you're not Gish.
--Vrocket Launcher Tag
Note I love the Githyanki and the culture built up around them over the editions but every tom, dick, and harry who can swing a sword and sling a spell will never be a gish in my book.
I never liked the term Gish either. Guess we need to come up with a new name for a figher-wizard mulitclass.
Conspicuously lacking:
Or Eldritch Knights mayhaps?
Or F/M-U?
Gandalf? He was pretty good using magic and sword/staff in battle...
Yes; Outsiders are proficient with martial weapons.
Gandalf? He was pretty good using magic and sword/staff in battle...Yes; Outsiders are proficient with martial weapons.
Or, to put it another way, a 5th-level magic-user and a 5th-level fighter aren't that different in attack bonus.
:-P
Conspicuously lacking:
(....)
Feat or EldKt class feature to let you channel touch spells through a weapon
This was my first thought, too. We've had this one in our games, in one form or another, as a house rule for years. It's almost pre-requisite for any magic-user who is using a weapon all the time. Since that is what an EK does, well....
Maybe it's a feat we'll see in the final book? Not long to go to find out!
Peace,
tfad
Alright folks. Putting together the iconics has been fun, but I have spent the entire time staying true to the art and as true as possible to their 3.5 stat blocks. That means that in some cases, the samples do not have the best possible combination of feats, gear, and class abilities. That is OK. Most organically built characters end up that way, and these posts are not designed to show you the best way to make a character.
They are designed to show off some aspects of the rules. In this case, the eldritch knight prestige class and some of the high level, fighter only feats that I did not get to show off in the first preview. Lets keep it on this topic. Save the CharOp discussions for another day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So Jason are you irritated yet that you have to explain this after every iconic so far? I don't get why people seem to think that these previews need to be the most broken examples of a PC.
Geez.
You can also make the Eldritch Knight into the ranged specialist. Swap that sword for a bow, and there you go! (Hey, it rhymes!) For some extra weirdness, swap those Fighter levels for Barbarian levels!
You can also make the Eldritch Knight into the ranged specialist. Swap that sword for a bow, and there you go! (Hey, it rhymes!) For some extra weirdness, swap those Fighter levels for Barbarian levels!
Then go ahead and grab weapon spec and greater focus too, since you can.
You can also make the Eldritch Knight into the ranged specialist. Swap that sword for a bow, and there you go! (Hey, it rhymes!) For some extra weirdness, swap those Fighter levels for Barbarian levels!
For even more weirdness, use bard levels to qualify.
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Alright folks. Putting together the iconics has been fun, but I have spent the entire time staying true to the art and as true as possible to their 3.5 stat blocks. That means that in some cases, the samples do not have the best possible combination of feats, gear, and class abilities. That is OK. Most organically built characters end up that way, and these posts are not designed to show you the best way to make a character.
They are designed to show off some aspects of the rules. In this case, the eldritch knight prestige class and some of the high level, fighter only feats that I did not get to show off in the first preview. Lets keep it on this topic. Save the CharOp discussions for another day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingSo Jason are you irritated yet that you have to explain this after every iconic so far? I don't get why people seem to think that these previews need to be the most broken examples of a PC.
Geez.
Jason has DR 15/constructive critism meaning nonsense bounces off him like rays from the tarrasques back.
The charop phenomenon gets old after a while. Rules Lawyers and Power Gamers are the primary adherents while casual gamers and the opposite end of the spectrum the story driven players don't actively crunch the numbers of every book and every option out there to achieve their characters. It's supposed to be fun, not homework! I have two in my group, my best and oldest friends. They totally love playing the numbers game and having the sweetest toons on the block. The rest of the group is far more laid back and is really there to hang out, roll dice, and bust up some monsters. It can be frustrating to watch as the Power Build de jour cakewalks through a lighthearted encounter stealing the joy from the rest of the table, especially if you're behind the screen and spent part of the week putting said encounter together.
--Vrocktoberfest
You can also make the Eldritch Knight into the ranged specialist. Swap that sword for a bow, and there you go! (Hey, it rhymes!) For some extra weirdness, swap those Fighter levels for Barbarian levels!For even more weirdness, use bard levels to qualify.
Bard 8, Arcane Archer 2, Eldritch Knight 10
BAB: 18
CL: 17
Heck lets balance out those Archer and Knight levels some.
Bard 8/ Arcane Archerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 6
Heck lets balance out those Archer and Knight levels some.
Bard 8/ Arcane Archerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 6
OT...and that's they way to play the bard? That sucks.
Anyway. The Eldritch Knight looks really good. Now I allmost feel like getting two books :-)
People keep throwing this word around, and although I'm a fairly well educated wandering minstrel, I must confess ignorance in this case. So... what the heck is a Gish?
People keep throwing this word around, and although I'm a fairly well educated wandering minstrel, I must confess ignorance in this case. So... what the heck is a Gish?
Gith Fighter/Magic-User from long long ago, avoid using it if at all possible:)
Heck lets balance out those Archer and Knight levels some.
Bard 8/ Arcane Archerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 6
OT...and that's they way to play the bard? That sucks.
Anyway. The Eldritch Knight looks really good. Now I allmost feel like getting two books :-)
No Zark there are plenty of ways to play a bard. I can go over another for you that is my "caster prime" model if you would like.
So... what the heck is a Gish?
1st edition terminology. In the original Fiend Folio, a "gish" was a githyanki fighter/magic-user. Eventually the term came into more general use to describe any martial/arcane mix. Somehow the other random terms for githyanki and githzerai class combinations ("zerth," etc.) never came into the same general usage.
Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but this class looks amazing. It's a true Battle Mage, better than nearly any of the 3.5 options (except Abjurant Champion).
If you really wanted to make this an uber-build you could run Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Abjurant Champion 4 for BAB 17 and a CL of 18. Even staying core, Fighter 2 / Wizard 8 / Eldritch Knight 10 is a strong option, with BAB 16 and CL 17- not to mention a load of feats.
Anyways, beyond all the crunching, this preview offered a look at what Wizards (and presumably Clerics) can look forward to when going prestige. In the beta version it wasn't clear how domains/specialists would progress in prestige classes, and it seems that since they've gone back to bonus spell slots it'll work exactly as 3.5. Keep your spell slots as you prestige out, but your abilities become stagnant.
I'm not entirely sure if I agree with this mentality, but it's a perk for the player.
*Sigh* I really wish we could see what Arcane Strike looks like in the final.