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the new wod is in many ways better, like in mage splitting "death" and "fate" into 2 powers rather than 1.
That's probably a good idea. Entropy was sick powerful, able to be pretty much your only Sphere and get away with just about everything.
Half of the Mage game was trying to find ways to make things happen without looking suspicious, and using Entropy to give people strokes, or make their guns jam, or whatever, was a thousand times easier than trying to rationalize how something could teleport or manipulating time or whatever.
Although the flavor text of the Euthanatos was amazingly cool. There's a certain amount of 'good stuff' that can happen in the world, and for every loser who wins a lottery ticket, or ends up getting the promotion, or gets on the right bus, or is born into the right family, there are hundreds or thousands of far more worthy individuals who are losing that opportunity. Imagine a Euthanatoi who 'frees up possibility' by seeking out those people who win million dollar lottery tickets and end up hideously in debt three years later, and *kills them before they win,* freeing up the possibilities that would have been squandered on those wasteful souls. And that sort of person could even think of himself as a *good guy,* making sure that good things only come to those who deserve them (by his twisted measure). It's kind of a distorted version of those TV 'cop death squads' who hunt down criminals who get off on technicalities and kill them, only in this case, the avenger is working on a more metaphysical level.
It's kinda what happens when a childish insistence on 'fairness' gets turned into an executioner's code.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Ah. Y'see, the Euthanatos are my poster child in the old World of Darkness for a group that understood the force which the Werewolves call "The Wyrm", but in its original, uncorrupted form.
(I'm playing a mortal Sorcerer in a *very* long-term WoD game, gathering together a group of Fae and Mages, preparing to fix the damage done to the Triad.)
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Ah. Y'see, the Euthanatos are my poster child in the old World of Darkness for a group that understood the force which the Werewolves call "The Wyrm", but in its original, uncorrupted form.
(I'm playing a mortal Sorcerer in a *very* long-term WoD game, gathering together a group of Fae and Mages, preparing to fix the damage done to the Triad.)
Loved the Wyld, Weaver, Wyrm focus, which I tended to interpret through a Hindu Trimurti lens (Brahma - Creator, Vishnu - Preserver / Architect, Shiva - Destroyer).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ah. Y'see, the Euthanatos are my poster child in the old World of Darkness for a group that understood the force which the Werewolves call "The Wyrm", but in its original, uncorrupted form.
(I'm playing a mortal Sorcerer in a *very* long-term WoD game, gathering together a group of Fae and Mages, preparing to fix the damage done to the Triad.)
I confused a group once with my Pro-life Eutanatos. "Can't you see all those lives who never get a turn on the wheel, because they're crushed before they start?" Threw people for a loop.
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Ive just seen some of True Blood (yeah i know we are a bit behind in the UK) and it was awesome, realy makes me want to drag out my old Vampire Books and start a new game : ) Charlaine Harris clearly was a VTM fan ; )
Ive played a few Vtr games but it really just doesnt grab me. I loved the OWoD meta plot which I think is what turns me off, Vtr is just...meh.
If I had never played the masquerade then I probably would enjoy Requiem a bit more, likewise if I never played D&d i probably would have liked 4e some more. In both cases I dont. Meh
Oh well ive got plenty of Vtm to last forever, now where is my New Orleans Sourcebook......
Is Monte Cook's World of Darkness a good alternative?
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I was incredibly skeptical about this book, both because the original idea of mixing (tainting) WoD with d20 was distasteful and because it was so expensive. However, I finally broke down and bought it, and it is fantastic. It is more based off of the Star Wars/D20 Modern rules than the D&D 3E, but similar.
If you can get past that idea of WoD D&D, which this is not, it is a great book, somewhere between Unearthed Arcana and Savage Species for D&D 3E, and well, WoD really doesn't have any comparable books. Maybe Hunter the Reckoning, (not really vigil as much).
Well, given what you want to do, I might suggest:
Once consequence of changing the default setting, is that this will greatly reduce or eliminate the problem of "unbelief" on Paradox and long-term spells.
This will make magic easier to use, and may make mages more powerful then other supernaturals. (This would be another reason not to completely eliminate Rotes.)
Thanks so much,
However, the Dm wrote paradox into the setting, so I don't think that will be a problem.
Also, as I see it, Mages are going to be significantly less powerful than other supernaturals, even absent paradox, in this system. Others have way more physical capabilities, so until mages reach greater levels of power, having a good bow skill or potence or a vampire or werewolf healing even lethal damage will make any mage without 5 dots in something tantamount to useless in direct combat with such, even without paradox. Sure, luck from fate will help things, as will shields and various abilities to see things, but a tough farmer seems more than a match for a mage with 2 to 3 dots in their highest sphere. What am I missing?
Mages are not meant to be "combat gods." (That is what Werewolves are for.)
Mages are very good at working around their opponent's strength however, so you might find the ability to shift a person's opinion, come up with a needed resourse, or divine an opponent's weak spot is vastly more useful then it might at first seem.
My point was that, while a mage's powers may not be entirely focused on combat (as your entropy/fate, mind and matter examples point out) when he does something so vulgar as to drop a boulder from thin air onto someone's head, or teleport someone into the sky only to fall thousands of feet to the earth, or stop someone's heart with a glance, it should do something. No?
I agree completely. That is one of the many reasons why I will not willingly play any of the nWoD.
Consider: When so many house rules are needed just to make a game playable, perhaps it is time to look for another game system. :(
I remember reading one of the Black Dog books, if I remember correctly, where they detailed the products that the fictional Black Dog RPG company had produced in the world of darkness. Werewolf: the Slashers and so on.
Call me cynical, but I think they were right in a lot of what they would be putting out...
There is a really fairly large amount of difference between the two, both system and setting based.
Core system differences:
NWoD:- Set target number of 7, situational modifiers add or subtract dice, attack and damage one roll, willpower expenditure on roll provides three additional dice
OWoD:- Variable Target number based on difficulty and situational modifiers, attack and damage two separate rolls, willpower expenditure on rolls provides automatic success.
Basically, NWoD is a much faster, cleaner system. However, it looses some finesse and is considerably more cinematic. It also crushs together the merits and flaws systems with the backgrounds system, which I personally like, though I often feel like I never have enough merits. The major casualty of the change was loss of freebie points, which reduces slightly the range of characters you might make at creation, but in its place you get an EXP based system for more developed characters.
Core setting:
The old world of darkness was a stylised place that was described as Gothic-Punk. Everything was worse, everything was grittier, everything was more morbidly beautiful. You had entire subcultures such as the blood dolls who had been shaped to serve the needs of supernatural factions. The supernatural community was truly global and characters could realistically expect to have dealings with locations beyond their own home city. Powerful supernatural conspiracies all but rule the world with Pentex and the technocracy having legitimate claims to being the two most powerful transnational organisations in the entire world. Hell, the technocracy uses a number of tactical nukes in the week of nightmares. Deep, built in conflicts existed between the different supernaturals, to the point were they kill each other on sight. And the whole world is one minute from midnight, on the dooms day clock.
By comparison, the new world of darkness is much more like our world. It isn’t gothic punk, its just creepy. The game focus’ much more on humanity. We are genuine players in the world of darkness, even if our role is that of pray, it is to a larger degree because we are unaware of the threat, than because we can’t fight back. Supernatural control is much less all pervasive. Where it exists, it is over a single local institution or figure. The monster of the world of darkness are also more tied to a place, the game is more local, vampires just don’t leave their city, or perhaps their neighbourhood, without an exceptional reason to do so. The focus is much more on personal horror than world spanning apocalyptic events. Its about what it means to be a walking corpse, caught up in Byzantine politic’s which are driven by nothing but boredom and hatred, rather than trying to survive the end of the world. Also, the monsters of the new world of darkness are almost as clueless as we are. Knowledge has a tendancy to decay in the new world of darkness, the mysteries of magic fade thanks to disbelief and the effects of the abyss, and memories twist and alter in the minds of vampires when they enter torper. An elder might awaken remembering both that he was sired by a roman legionary and that he was personally singled out and cursed to become a vampire by god him self, and have no way to tell which, if either memory is correct.
Theme:
oWoD: One minite to midnight
Literally the entire line is about the fact the world is going to end, what are you going to do with the time you have left.
NWoD: Monsters we are, lest monsters we become..
Most of the games are on some level, about what it really means to be a monster.
Details:
The details of what is different between specific games are to numerous to list here to be honest, but changeling is a wonderful example of how much it has changed in places. Changeling the dreaming was a game essentially about the death of hope and imagination, about how computer games where killing childhood, and how real life creeps in and ruins the best things in life. It is one of the most beautiful and whimsy filled games going, in which you might play a childling otter-pooka who always says exactly the opposite of what he means, a grumpy teenages knocker with a brass ornithopter shaped like a dragon-fly, who has a crush on her best friend, who just happens to be a sidhe noble lady, all three could reasonably be tasked with going into the heart of down town to make sure than the sidhe’s banker father skips a day of work and rediscovers his lost youth, so that when he is at home, his very presence doesn’t hurt his daughter. By contrast, changeling the lost is a game about fae beauty, madness and fear, in which PCs are stolen away from the world, replaced with puppets made from twigs and leaves, that live their lives for them. The PCs are tortured, changed and scared, physically and mentally before they escape back into a world that has no place for them. They are hunted by their former captors, can’t trust their fellows who might be traitors, and find monsters living their lives. Stories for changeling the lost are more likely to be about tortured abuse survivors who must now decide if mentally assaulting a child, treatening him with injury and pain, is morally acceptable, if it will mean that an entire freehold of changeling will be safe for a year and a day from far worse fates.
There is a really fairly large amount of difference between the two, both system and setting based.
Core system differences:
NWoD:- Set target number of 7, situational modifiers add or subtract dice, attack and damage one roll, willpower expenditure on roll provides three additional dice
Incorrect.
Set Target Number = 8 (the World Of Darkness p. 125)
And, as far as I know, none of the Supernatural types lower that. I know that Changelings, Mages, and Werewolves do not.
There is a really fairly large amount of difference between the two, both system and setting based.
Core system differences:
NWoD:- Set target number of 7, situational modifiers add or subtract dice, attack and damage one roll, willpower expenditure on roll provides three additional dice
Incorrect.
Set Target Number = 8 (the World Of Darkness p. 125)
And, as far as I know, none of the Supernatural types lower that. I know that Changelings, Mages, and Werewolves do not.
Sorry, we have been playing exalted for the last three or so months, i got confuddled on something i should know backwards...
You know, the worst thing is, the more I am looking at the nWoD as part of this discussion, the less I am liking it.
Is Monte Cook's World of Darkness a good alternative?
Mmmm...personally i would avoid it for the purpose it was created for. If you want to play a world of darkness game, storyteller just does the job better, but the magic system seems really interesting. What i would really like to see is the magic system be dragged out of it and be turned into an alternate magic system for pathfinder...
Is Monte Cook's World of Darkness a good alternative?Mmmm...personally i would avoid it for the purpose it was created for. If you want to play a world of darkness game, storyteller just does the job better, but the magic system seems really interesting. What i would really like to see is the magic system be dragged out of it and be turned into an alternate magic system for pathfinder...
It (Monte Cook's World of Darkenss) might be a better fit for what sartorian is looking for though.
You can still do magic without a rote -- it just automatically costs you a point of juice. You can also achieve other effects than those listed, they just give you a starting point.More Importantly, they also make you give up a third to half of your dice pool
Rote: Attribute + Skill + Arcana
w/o Rote: Gnosis + Arcana
A pretty large penalty in most cases.It gets even better. Creating a new rote requires that the mage:
Cast the effect ten times spontaniously (w/o Rote above) - which is obnoxious.
Sacrifice a perminent point of Willpower - which is insane.
And it is unclear to me if the mage then has to also buy the rote itself.
Don't forget that you have to be a master of the spheres Arcana involved ;)
But that is intentionally the case, it is part of the underlying theme of ancient mysteries. Rotes are rare and precious, they have value. If you wish to learn an existing rote, well all you have to do is find someone willing to teach you the rote, or find a grimoire that contains it. (okay, you might also have to learn some of another orders mundras, but given that this has no system cost, it ain't so bad.)
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Hate to pester, but my first question may have gotten lost in the hubbub. So again: for those that like nWoD, do you find the lack of successes for PC actions to be real issues? Do you think the houserule to 6 or 7 is necessary? If not, why not? (I already have the "if so"...)Would it be better to go back to oWoD variable difficulties?
I don['t think it is so much that, though that is it's own problem, as much as that in nWoD, successes are very hit or miss. You can roll 0, 1-4, or 5+. That is really your options, (aside from botching and stuff). but the point it, rolling 1 success or 4, means the same exact thing in many cases, but 5+ jump up to awesome success. Having a 3 success milestone would help a lot I think, because 3 successes is pretty rare. I haven't ever seen an exception success, as far as i remember. So the fact is, with a fairly good dice pool of say 10, you are looking at 1 or 2 successes. Thats the most common. I think it kind of gets boring when you get a bunch of 1 or 2 success rolls, than roll god and get 4, than realize it doesn't matter a bit.
@ Beckett Would you be the same Beckett that does the occasional Darkling podcast on Darker Days?
I remember reading one of the Black Dog books...
Montreal by Night. The only RPG book EVER where you can find a map of Montreal's subways, and have the Foufounes Electriques immortalized in a gothic parallel world... For us Montrealer, that was kind of cool.
[edit] I don't think Montreal by Night is the Black Dog book that Sissyl was talking about though.
You know, the worst thing is, the more I am looking at the nWoD as part of this discussion, the less I am liking it.
In a follow-up, how is the nWoD doing in the market place?
What attracted me to Vampire: the Mascarade was only really central to the earlier iterations of the game (remember when Gangrels had a bonus on their hunt rolls while Ventrue had bonuses in social interaction etc.)
Back then, the conflict between the beast vs. the 'human' within the vampire was a major aspect of the game. Your derangement (which all vampire had, not only Malkavians) was the human part of the vampire attempting to keep the beast at bay when your vampire was loosing control...
That seemed to disappear rather early even in old WoD standards.
Other than that, I don't have much experience with requiem. From what I heard, the system update was a good thing, but I'm undecided about the WoD itself. It WAS getting old and bloated at the end however.
Someone said it was a generation thing. I can buy that. WoD belonged to the 90s with the rest of the Vampire hype. I'm sure the concept still sells, but its noting new anymore.
Someone said it was a generation thing. I can buy that. WoD belonged to the 90s with the rest of the Vampire hype. I'm sure the concept still sells, but its noting new anymore.
It is either that, or they need to reconsider their marketing model. White Wolf has been very resistant to creating "adventure suppliments" for philosophical reasons (namely a Storyteller would know his characters and be better able to weave them into his/her own plots).
But, as gamers grow up, they find that the "adult gamer" has more outside demands on his or her time. They no longer have the leasure to craft intricate multi-level plots or carefully balanced encounters.
This is the genius of the "Adventure Path." It fills a very real need of the current generation of Pen & Paper gamers.
This puts the World of Darkness (reguardless of version) into a Catch-22. To survive they need to craft more "pre-made" adventures, but then it would feel less like the "Storyteller" system.
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This puts the World of Darkness (reguardless of version) into a Catch-22. To survive they need to craft more "pre-made" adventures, but then it would feel less like the "Storyteller" system.
Well they now Make Pre-Made adventures, they Call it Storyteller Adventure System (SAS), they are PDF only adventures you can buy online. You can check them out here.
This puts the World of Darkness (reguardless of version) into a Catch-22. To survive they need to craft more "pre-made" adventures, but then it would feel less like the "Storyteller" system.Well they now Make Pre-Made adventures, they Call it Storyteller Adventure System (SAS), they are PDF only adventures you can buy online. You can check them out here.
It's about time. They need more of them, of course, but that should happen in the normal course of things.
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It's about time. They need more of them, of course, but that should happen in the normal course of things.This puts the World of Darkness (reguardless of version) into a Catch-22. To survive they need to craft more "pre-made" adventures, but then it would feel less like the "Storyteller" system.Well they now Make Pre-Made adventures, they Call it Storyteller Adventure System (SAS), they are PDF only adventures you can buy online. You can check them out here.
What they need to do (And I posted this on their boards) is take that format for SAS, make Stories that can be run at a 4-5 hour slot at a Con and make a Storyteller Table top org. They have Organizations supporting their LARP and Card game, I just don't understand why they don't have one supporting their Tabletop.
It's about time. They need more of them, of course, but that should happen in the normal course of things.This puts the World of Darkness (reguardless of version) into a Catch-22. To survive they need to craft more "pre-made" adventures, but then it would feel less like the "Storyteller" system.Well they now Make Pre-Made adventures, they Call it Storyteller Adventure System (SAS), they are PDF only adventures you can buy online. You can check them out here.
Actually, if you add all the SAS's together for the different core books, there are already somewhere between 20-30 of them now.
*walks in wearing a suit, tie, and anonymous (not the small "a") sunglasses*
The aWoD does exist.. I have seen it.
*walks in wearing a suit, tie, and anonymous (not the small "a") sunglasses*
The aWoD does exist.. I have seen it.
The "aWoD"? What is this?
Alternate World of Darkness.......Monte Cook's World of Darkness to be exact.
Alternate World of Darkness.......Monte Cook's World of Darkness to be exact.
I have this product.
From a setting standpoint, I reguard it as far supioror to the nWoD and mostly superior to the oWoD.My only problem with it is: No Changelings. :(
I ran across it here. Granted, I haven't played in it, but it did give a bit of (I hesitate to say "standardized") common stability and a bit of clarity to a system that maybe by necessity was sometimes shaded by oblique references and semi-truths depending on your viewpoint.
Not to mention that it completely justified Luchadores. Made my night.
I ran across it here. Granted, I haven't played in it, but it did give a bit of (I hesitate to say "standardized") common stability and a bit of clarity to a system that maybe by necessity was sometimes shaded by oblique references and semi-truths depending on your viewpoint.
Not to mention that it completely justified Luchadores. Made my night.
Now that I have read it, I understand.
(But, I think that Monte Cook's take on the WoD resolves the "bloated setting" problems even more elegantly.)
Ooooooh that one! I honestly overlooked that one, since at the time I was pretty much avoiding the WoD, and peer pressure tended to push away from Monte's stuff.. huh.. I'd like to take a look at that book now.
This very thread made me look for Montes WoD again, and lo and behold! I found a copy in an ebay store for an acceptable price. It will be mine soon. At first, I was sceptical about it (WoD and D&D? does not seem to mix well at all), but as most folks are enthusiastic about it, and Monte and Sean are top-notch game designers, I will just give it a shot.
Stefan
This very thread made me look for Montes WoD again, and lo and behold! I found a copy in an ebay store for an acceptable price. It will be mine soon. At first, I was sceptical about it (WoD and D&D? does not seem to mix well at all), but as most folks are enthusiastic about it, and Monte and Sean are top-notch game designers, I will just give it a shot.
Stefan
Better then the $45 that it available from Paizo?
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At first, I was sceptical about it (WoD and D&D? does not seem to mix well at all), but as most folks are enthusiastic about it, and Monte and Sean are top-notch game designers, I will just give it a shot.
Sean? Sean who?
I stayed away from this because of 2 reasons, I am not a fan of Monte or d20, seemed sacrilegious to fit my favorite system, Storyteller, into the d20 world.
But if someone else had their hands in the development of this, I may think twice..
So... Sean who?
Better then the $45 that it available from Paizo?This very thread made me look for Montes WoD again, and lo and behold! I found a copy in an ebay store for an acceptable price. It will be mine soon. At first, I was sceptical about it (WoD and D&D? does not seem to mix well at all), but as most folks are enthusiastic about it, and Monte and Sean are top-notch game designers, I will just give it a shot.
Stefan
40 Euro including shipping and handling. If you see the exchange rate, this may seem expensive, but s&h got horrendously expensive for big books from the US to Europe. Not cheap, but acceptable - and it wasn´t on backorder, too.
Stefan
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At first, I was sceptical about it (WoD and D&D? does not seem to mix well at all), but as most folks are enthusiastic about it, and Monte and Sean are top-notch game designers, I will just give it a shot.Sean? Sean who?
I stayed away from this because of 2 reasons, I am not a fan of Monte or d20, seemed sacrilegious to fit my favorite system, Storyteller, into the d20 world.
But if someone else had their hands in the development of this, I may think twice..
So... Sean who?
Sean K Reynolds.
At first, I was sceptical about it (WoD and D&D? does not seem to mix well at all), but as most folks are enthusiastic about it, and Monte and Sean are top-notch game designers, I will just give it a shot.Sean? Sean who?
I stayed away from this because of 2 reasons, I am not a fan of Monte or d20, seemed sacrilegious to fit my favorite system, Storyteller, into the d20 world.
But if someone else had their hands in the development of this, I may think twice..
So... Sean who?
Sean K Reynolds - I think you might have heard of him, AFAIK, he is somehow involved with these upstarts at paizo now :-) j/k, of course.
Sean said so on the thread discussing the book - see the link lord fyre posted.Stefan
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I don´t know if my gaming group is very lucky or not, but we don´t have any problems with nWoD action resolution system. As a matter of fact we have 1 exceptional sucess every session and very few skill fails.
Since we have start playing i even landed a exceptional sucess with 3 dices in two separate ocasions (albeit, it was with a 8-again roll).
We play Changeling, Vampire, Mage and i´ll start a Hunter Chronicle. My Mage have rarelly used his routes but i managed to have sucess with all magic i have made even with few dices.
I don´t know if you said those things with a long play experience or not, but we habe been playing a lot and i don´t feel failing everything.
But maybe, we only have been extremely luck....
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My nWoD experience is generally shorter (overall) duration games. Typicaly game about 6 - 8 hours, 1/week (if we are lucky). Games tend to last till about 75+ Xp, with a range of 1-4 XP per night, (with sometimes 0, sometimes more depending). I thnk it is too easy to fail at rather simple things, (meaning things a character is built for), and can be excelptionally difficult to do something very well all around.
I think the problem is the way the rules work in regards to Difficulty and Bonus/Penulty Dice. A simple task, (one that you an't do in your sleep but slightly above that), need to have a lower Difficulty number, not Bonus Dice. Or at least a combination of the two.
For example, hacking a basic computer should be easier for a character that is a hacker. They shouldn't get more dice because it is an easier job for them (which better represent that character being trained with a speific computer model or program), but should be less difficult for them to succeed at.
In the oWoD, that is how it worked. The Base Difficulty was 6, meaning on each d10, 6 and higher counted as a succes. Things that are harder to do, (for your character specifically), have a higher difficulty, up to 10, so only rolling 10's are successes. It is a straight 8 in nWoD, and can't be changed. So, in the nWoD, you roll your Hacking, and if you are specialized in the computer type,or have other modifiers, like a "hacking kit", you can get up to +5 dice on your roll. The problem is, that your still not very likely to succeed more than marginally, because the idea is, for every 5 dice, you get 1 success (or something similar). So, having an average to good dice pool of 9 (roughly 4 from Traits, +1 Specialty, + 4 Bonus, which should mean you are pretty dang good at it, but not the best) you are likely to get 1 success.
However, in the oWoD, with the same scenerio, the task would drop from an 8 to a 7, because it isn't as dificult to you as it would be to the average person, though it is still a little above average Difficulty (which is 6). You are rolling your 4 Trait, +1 Specialty, and possibly +1 for a "hacking kit", (or that might also drop the Difficulty down to 6, wither way). Going woth the first option, that is Difficulty 7, and 6 Dice. It looks more like an average of 2-3 Successes. Still not likely that you will get 5+, but there is a lot ess risk of just failing because the dice hate you. (Also, in oWoD, all the extra successes you got about what you needed, typically just one, actually did show you how much better you did at the job, unlike nWoD, where it is mostly either 1 or 5, nothing else matters).