Ok basically I am looking to build a barbarian that can do more then fight. It will be for a small group (3 players) and need to be able to cover something other then fighting.
I was thinking I could act as scout and trap remover. Sure I can't do magical traps in pathfinder, but I can find and remove all others assuming I've got the skills. Perception is in class and that helps. But stealth and disable device are not. Because a high dex will help with stealth I was thinking of doing the less then optimal TWF. I know not the best choice but well seems pretty cool in my mind's eye.
I am thinking race wise human is my best bet, feels right to me. Also adds skill points and a feat both things I will be needing.
Ok here's the stat line (25 point buy)
str 14
dex 18
con 16
int 10
wis 12
cha 8
Level 1 feat was thinking TWF
My plan is to take skill focus along the way in disable device and perception.
I have concidered instead of toughness taking skill focus disable device or perception but I really like having toughness for the early levels.
Any ideas, thoughts, or things I should be weary about?
If you all think I am asking too much of the barbarian class for this type of build I am open to ranger who would have more skill points and more feats free because of the weapon style. I was just thinking of Conan and him being part thief and all and building a barbarian in that style.
I would never discourage an unique build if done for the right reason. In this case, I'd have to discourage. I wouldn't have a problem with suplimenting Rogue skills in with the Barbarian dispite the fact that it doesn't make much sense since they are almost polar opposites but I really don't like the idea of going high DEX and taking TWF. I have a feeling that you probably really want a high STR and a two handed weapon when playing a barbarian. The thought of going into a Rage and wildly chopping away with your short swords just doesn't sit well with me.
Barbarians can take the place of a Rogue in most ways. They use brute force instead of finesse. They smash the door or chest open instead of picking the lock. If this is the role you want, then beef your saves up as much as possible. Take Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will plus pick up a Cloak or Vest of Resistance. Unless your DM runs straight out of prepublished adventures, he should make sure that there isn't any obsticle that you absolutely can't get through without a Rogue.
If you want to be a high DEX two weapon fighter, I'd suggest the Ranger or a Fighter/Rogue.
Except for the most famous barbarian of all time Conan who started his adventures as a thief and pretty damn good one.
That would mean that he had two or three levels of Rogue before he starting taking Barbarian levels. :)
I would never discourage an unique build if done for the right reason. In this case, I'd have to discourage. I wouldn't have a problem with suplimenting Rogue skills in with the Barbarian dispite the fact that it doesn't make much sense since they are almost polar opposites but I really don't like the idea of going high DEX and taking TWF. I have a feeling that you probably really want a high STR and a two handed weapon when playing a barbarian. The thought of going into a Rage and wildly chopping away with your short swords just doesn't sit well with me.
Barbarians can take the place of a Rogue in most ways. They use brute force instead of finesse. They smash the door or chest open instead of picking the lock. If this is the role you want, then beef your saves up as much as possible. Take Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will plus pick up a Cloak or Vest of Resistance. Unless your DM runs straight out of prepublished adventures, he should make sure that there isn't any obsticle that you absolutely can't get through without a Rogue.
If you want to be a high DEX two weapon fighter, I'd suggest the Ranger or a Fighter/Rogue.
Was thinking of using sword and axe...
The point of dodging rogue was to take advantage of the change to finding traps in Pathfinder since this game wont be starting till sept at the earliest and the DM wants to try straight up pathfinder with a few changes that wont have much effect on a barbarian.
Like I said I could go ranger I just have always wanted to try a barbarian and give it a shot. I can't see fighter working as he wont have the skill points to cover things well. But are you really convinced that my damage will be so poor that this build isn't feasible?
Was thinking of using sword and axe...The point of dodging rogue was to take advantage of the change to finding traps in Pathfinder since this game wont be starting till sept at the earliest and the DM wants to try straight up pathfinder with a few changes that wont have much effect on a barbarian.
Like I said I could go ranger I just have always wanted to try a barbarian and give it a shot. I can't see fighter working as he wont have the skill points to cover things well. But are you really convinced that my damage will be so poor that this build isn't feasible?
If you want to try it, go ahead. If you're looking to keep power though you'll need to find a way to keep TWF good for the barbarian. Despite being reliant on dextiery, keep strength, since the barbarian's main class feature revolves around increasing that (though given your theme I might use the Whirling Frenzy variant), which means it's liable to be the main cause of your damage outwith doing somthing like power attacking (which applies to just about every barbarian).
Like I said I could go ranger I just have always wanted to try a barbarian and give it a shot. I can't see fighter working as he wont have the skill points to cover things well. But are you really convinced that my damage will be so poor that this build isn't feasible?
Almost anything is feasible even if it is not optimal. I'm sure you could get by just fine. I'm just discouraging it because you sound like you are taking TWF and Rogue skills to fill the void for not having a Rogue in the group and not because it is the kind of character you want to play.
If I were playing a prototypical Barbarian, which appears to what you would like to do, and there wasn't a Rogue in the group, I woundn't try to use skill and finesse to disarm traps. I'd be charging head first through them...setting them off without abandon. That's usually how Barbarians handle these kinds of situations. If you know there's no Rogue and that you're going to be doing that often, I'd make sure that my saving throws were as good as I could get them. The feats that help your bad saves along with the best cloak or vest of resistance you can get at any given level would help you stay out of harms way much better.
The new Rage rules will help out here too. You can rage for one round and go crashing through a door. If nothing is on the other side then you stop raging and you only used one rounds worth as opposed to six, seven or how many rounds rage would've lasted you under 3.5 rules.
I just have a feeling that you might come to not like your character. If I'm wrong and this is the kind of Barbarian that you would like to play then, by all means, go for it. I just didn't get the impression that this was the case. It sounded like you were settling. Personally, if I were a Barbarian, I'd rather not be picking locks and disarming simple, non-magical traps. I'd put my head down and go raging though. That's just me though. Do what you think is best for you.
Barbarian/ranger has certainly been a good combination for me in the past, due to their skill overlaps and general feel. Ranger/rogue also has a lot of overlap. Barbarian/rogue is certainly doable. Acrobatics and Perception are the main skill overlaps.
Try something like a dwarven urgrosh if you're set on two-weapon fighting, for the added strength damage. If you lose the urgrosh, you could certainly pull out a pair of daggers. Rogues can also sneak attack with a greatsword, so it's still a good choice.
I'm trying to think of a good reason to have Str 14 and Dex 18 instead of Str 18 and Dex 14. I think Weapon Finesse would be a poor choice for this character, and Strength is still the way to go. Dex 14 is still pretty catlike reflexes.
A savage tattooed dwarf, foaming at the mouth and doing cartwheels into flanking position, should be a terrifying idea for any goblin. Raging sneak attack ftw!
...that would be 3d6+9 damage for your Bbn1/Rog1 with a greatsword. With a 14 Dex, take Skill Focus and two ranks in Disable Device, and he has a +10 check. Certainly nothing to sneeze at.
From a character description perspective, it'd be easy to imagine a barbarian who was skilled in using pit traps, deadfalls, and snares for hunting, and has developed skills that make dealing with these easier in a dungeon... even if he isn't as highly specialized as an urban safecracker.
EDIT
If you want a single-class character, you may be wanting too much. Perception is a class skill for barbarians, and cross-class training in Disable Device and perhaps a Skill Focus is not too much to ask for some flexibility. Adding the TWF feat tree starts to use up precious feats; if you want to go this way, you'd need to be a human, but it could be an OK character.
However, if your character concept is a stealthy wilderness fighter who uses two weapons and can deal with traps, it'll just be easier to realize this concept as a competent character as a ranger.
The multiclass barbarian/ranger looks awfully intriguing to me, though; those might be the last best examples of front-loaded classes.
What kind of source books are you using?
I ask because Unearthed Arcana has a "Whirling Frenzy" rage variant that goes well with two weapon fighting and Complete Warrior has Combat Style feats - one of which gives works with your sword and axe idea.
What kind of source books are you using?
I ask because Unearthed Arcana has a "Whirling Frenzy" rage variant that goes well with two weapon fighting and Complete Warrior has Combat Style feats - one of which gives works with your sword and axe idea.
When it comes out just the Pathfinder core book.
But I know the combat style feat and I think he might let it in.
It's all based on this picture I found of a barbarian with a sword and axe sneaking up on an ogre. I thought that looks so cool what kind of guy could he be, what does he do? I figured he's a hunter or maybe trapper, and while he rages like other barbarians he also uses his head. Also I was watching old Conan again and that line about smart thieves and him got me thinking, what if a barbarian did play it smart well until it was time to stop playing it smart, wouldn't that be a rather cool guy. So it's kind of getting parts of his character from different places and the whole cover the find traps thing was just a thought that sounded interesting to me.
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If you want to be a high DEX two weapon fighter, I'd suggest the Ranger or a Fighter/Rogue.
Now, I'm going to disagree. It makes a lot of sense to go with a high DEX barbarian, grabbing TWF and Weapon Finesse are good choices for the build. What is the first thing an evil wizard would do if confronted by a raging barbarian? Use Ray of Enfeeblement to bring that STR score down. Even if your damage goes down, with that stats listed above his attacks rolls will remain unchanged. The high DEX also helps up his Armor Class and ranged attacks.
Check this character profile out. (from a Beta PbP)
It seem similar to the over-all type of build you're talking about, though I DIDN'T take Disable Device or Stealth, and in fact swapped out the Trap Save Bonus & Uncanny Dodge for a 1/2 level Tracking Bonus and Trip Feat (Wolf Totem) - You can also see that Yalka is Whirling Frenzy like people mention (beware: Whirling Frenzy + 2WF can miss ALOT).
A Double Weapon of some sort helps you maximize your STR bonus (1.5 STR dmg main, .75 STR dmg off hand), though at the cost of a Feat (well, Quarterstaff is free). (My Double Greatspear is technically made-up, but in line with Great X weapons and Double X weapons). You'll actually notice that with her not-super-high STR, Encumbrance is actually a serious issue, depending on if I'm carrying all my gear or non-combat essentials are on my horse, and if I'm raging or not.
Why exactly are you set on a Barbarian? Are the new Rage Powers just too sexy to turn down?
I'm just asking because a Ranger can still be a 'barbarian', just not with the capital 'B'.
And if you're ACTUALLY interested in 2WF, Rangers' Combat Style ignoring pre-reqs mean your DEX doesn't have to be higher than you actually want, meaning your STR can easily end up equaling your 2WF Barbarians', certainly at lower levels and averaged over every combat round. Being extra-strong sometimes during combat vs. just having a high STR as a Ranger (both can yell and froth at the mouth if they want, or not) doesn't really seem a signifigant difference in-game role-playing-wise. So for the most part, I think a 2WF Barbarian and a (Strong) 2WF Ranger will end up doing similar damage, end up with similar ACs, but the Ranger has more Class Skills and Ranks.
Nevertheless, I still made Yalka a Barbarian because it worked for her character!
I think you can end up with a good character, capable at these 'rogue-ish' skills and still good in their combat role, either way, so don't sweat it. Just go with what feels right. And certainly don't sweat it too much before the freakin' Final rules are out! :-)
Agreeing with Yalka here, 6 levels of ranger would mean that you can use wands that are on the ranger's spell list, have two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting without needing the high Dex, and still have 14 levels in barbarian. Ranger would help your skills, get you endurance, a tracking bonus, and two favored enemies -- not to mention a fairly useful companion to scout out some, or be flavorful.
All this would complement your need to be able to do more than fight, and keep the stat requirements low so you can focus on other things. The save throw bonuses from ranger would help your Ref save too.
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I made a barbarian using the score and skills mentioned above.
str 14 dex 18 con 16
int 10 wis 12 cha 8
Fort:5=2+3 Ref:4=0+4 Will:1=0+1 Bab+1
Ac:=10++0+4 Tch:14 Fl:10 Speed:40ft
Chain Shirt
Short Sword(1d6+2,19–20/×2, 2lb. P)+5 melee(+3 TWF, 1d6+4 in rage)
Short Sword, off-hand(1d6+1,19–20/×2, 2lb. P)+5 melee(+3 TWF, 1d6+2 in rage)
3 Javelins(1d6+2,×2, 30ft., 2lb. P)+5 ranged(1d6+4 in rage)
Dagger(1d4+2,19-20/x2, 10ft., 1lb. P or S)+5 melee/ranged(+3 TWF, 1d4+4 in rage)
Skills
Acrobatics:6=4+1+3-2
Disable Device:1=0+1
Perception:5=1+1+3
Climb:6=2+1+3
Feats
Weapon Finesse, TWF
55 gp left over.
This is an excellent point. Once you drop the preconceived notions of what each class is and instead look at them simply as foundations for you to build your character on you open up wide range of character concepts.
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it's all about how you visualize your character and what you do with him.
Thank you. You captured my previous intentions perfectly with this post. Please repost this in the thread about creating an Aristocrat class. :)
Why not just dip(multi-class) Rogue for the skills and sneak attack, then go balls-to-the-wall Barbarian, continue to plug points into Rogue skills. Definitely use a 2-handed weapon... the basis of the character is Conan and he uses a Bastard Sword. (at least visually using it 1 or 2-handed)
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Random Class Experiences:(not a spoiler)
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A second build of the same character went Barbarian/Scout which then focused on "movement damage" (Scout + Powerful Charge) using the same weapons as above.
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Go for it! Power Attack works equally well for two-weapon as two-handed now after all.
I recently had my barb forced into two-weapon (sorta) by a cursed item - actually it was a secondary attack, but worked out about the same.
My only thought to change is to stay strength focused - the dex to skills isn't all that vital, and barbs are a little feat-poor, so burning weapon finesse would hurt (if you were considering it).
One of the things I love about Conan is that he is not tied to any weapon or "build". There is just his savage fury.
In "Hour of the Dragon", one minute he's captured, given a stout dagger, and kills a dire ape with a single blow... and the next minute, picking a lock and sneaking into a castle to slaughter a bunch of plotting aristocrats with an executioner's axe.
I always hated in 2e (and I suspect 4e) how Fighters are always tied to a specific weapon; they'd be all sad if someone stole their precious +2 rapier. 3e fixed a bunch of that with the martial weapon proficiencies.
Which is why I'm so glad that Razor Sharp Chair Leg is in the core rules: steal the barbarian's precious broadsword, and he'll just mash your face in with a pewter ale tankard.
EDIT
Power Attack + Cleave is similar to and better than TWF in a whole lot of situations.
Which is why I'm so glad that Razor Sharp Chair Leg is in the core rules: steal the barbarian's precious broadsword, and he'll just mash your face in with a pewter ale tankard.
You have that backwards Witchlord... let me fix it for you:
Which is why I'm so glad that Razor Sharp Chair Leg is in the core rules: steal the barbarian's precious pewter ale tankard , and he'll just mash your face in with a broadsword .
There much better. ;D
If you really want to be the Barbarian class and also be good at picking locks, I have a suggestion for you. Actively seek out a magic item that will help out with the whole Rogue-ish stuff. Seek it out in-game. You're DM might get the point and understand that you don't have a Rogue and end up giving you some magic item that will grant you a bonus to Open Lock and/or Disable Device (or whatever these skills are called now).
If not, custom made magic items can be made. Find someone to create a ring or disable device (+5 bonus) or maybe gloves of open lock. There's a set price for magic items that grant +5 to a skill (2500gp under 3.5). Maybe for a higher price it could grant you the ability to find and disable magical traps.
Either way, this could bridge the gap allowing you to go straight Barbarian without taking any Rogue levels.
Thanks all, excellent ideas all. Ranger could work very well, all the way no need for barbarian. Barbarian is more about attitude and all not being a certain class. If my ranger has the right attitude well he's a barbarian, I don't want spells or care about them so I can be light on wisdom. Having a pet is fine nothing non-primal about that.
Or I can mix barbarian and .... bard a skald of a sort with the bard...just to be odd.
Lots to think om all thanks.
Or I can mix barbarian and .... bard a skald of a sort with the bard...just to be odd.
Beat me to it - I was going to propose brb/brd. It works wonders as a reckless skald, telling tales in the evening and killing orcs during the day. Intimidating Stare and Terrifying Howl have some synergies with that concept.
Or I can mix barbarian and .... bard a skald of a sort with the bard...just to be odd.Beat me to it - I was going to propose brb/brd. It works wonders as a reckless skald, telling tales in the evening and killing orcs during the day. Intimidating Stare and Terrifying Howl have some synergies with that concept.
Good saves too, and you have the music to back up your damage potential... you don't lose too much in BAB either. Even if you go 8 levels in Bard you still come out with a BAB of 18.
Or I can mix barbarian and .... bard a skald of a sort with the bard...just to be odd.
Good old Fafhrd!
All the Fafhrd clones have to have him start out as a 1st-level singing skald, then advance him as a fighter or barbarian.
Or I can mix barbarian and .... bard a skald of a sort with the bard...just to be odd.Good old Fafhrd!
All the Fafhrd clones have to have him start out as a 1st-level singing skald, then advance him as a fighter or barbarian.
?
Did I miss that in the books? I don't really remember him singing.Honestly Faf doesn't feel much like the Barbarian class at all, fighter? sure, rogue? sure.
Reading those old Howard Conan stories definitely gives one the flavor of Barbarian.