Bonus Spells: disguise self (3rd), bull’s strength (5th), water breathing (7th), bestow curse (9th), baleful polymorph (11th), veil (13th), forcecage (15th), mind blank (17th), energy drain (19th).
The hag bloodline is a cool idea. I like the addition of Bull's Strength to the list you proposed earlier. I'm curious, why Forcecage and Mind Blank?
How about "Legacy" or "Accursed" for the hex bloodline?
I like the sound of "Accursed" for a bloodline. I think I might like Kirth's version of that bloodline even better than the hag. I was thinking that the Aura of Unluck should be a little nastier, like cause enemies to damage themselves, possibly even severing their own limbs (like the Tin Woodman of Oz). This is a capstone after all.
My two cents on the witch class.
I like the idea and the only things I would add are:
1: Keep her arcane.
2: make use of the circle magic feats and powers from Rasheman and Halruua in the forgotten realms setting. (Pre fourth edition)
3: take a good hard look at the Hathran class for your witch because as far as my limited research into this topic goes the witches of rasheman are as close to "witches" as the settings allows and it has some good ideas for spells and powers. I dislike the whole tied to the land thing but for that class in that setting it works.
4: don’t be afraid to look at the splat books for second edition as source material. I had a player that wanted to be a 'witch" so I gave her her own spell list from a second edition arcana supplement and spells 1st lvl "fire cage" or 2nd lvl "pit" were shocking to other players because they were outside of the D&D world and added an air of mystery to a class. The player loved it 10yrs later she still has fond memories of the game.
5: shape change should be limited to 3 forms at most but be usable more times per day.
The witch was rarely ever a combat shape changer more of a fast travel, sneak out of town type.
6: Make a definite distinction between a “good” witch and an “evil” witch. Evil curses and kills good witches are limited healers and curse breakers.
That’s my thoughts on the topic
The hag bloodline is a cool idea. I like the addition of Bull's Strength to the list you proposed earlier. I'm curious, why Forcecage and Mind Blank?
I try to stick for the most part with higher-level bonus spells that appear on the ancestor's list of spell-like abilities. Hag covens get those spells as SLAs, for whatever reason.
How about "Legacy" or "Accursed" for the hex bloodline?I like the sound of "Accursed" for a bloodline. I think I might like Kirth's version of that bloodline even better than the hag. I was thinking that the Aura of Unluck should be a little nastier, like cause enemies to damage themselves, possibly even severing their own limbs (like the Tin Woodman of Oz). This is a capstone after all.
1. For use in actual play, "Accursed" works a lot better than "Hex," and I'd probably use that. I initially called it "hex" to make it clear that I was stealing all its powers from the 3.5e Hexblade class -- sort of a "cite your sources" thing.
2. I agree that the capstone might be a bit weak... maybe it gives the sorcerer himself an equal "hit chance" when he'd otherwise miss? (P.S. love the Tin Woodsman reference, but I've never really been fond of effects that make you damage yourself, for some reason: a bit too Keystone Kops/Three Stooges for me in a fantasy game, maybe).
Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming!
You might also look at the generic spellcaster from Unearthed Arcana.
The generic spellcaster can choose to be divine or arcane, casts as a sorcerer, and chooses from cleric, druid, and sorcerer spell lists. You could houserule that she could replace her 1st-level bonus feat with an arcane bond/familiar.
In Pathfinder terms, even with skill merging and unlimited cantrips, the generic spellcaster would be a very strong NPC class, but probably a little weaker than a PC class. I like it better than the adept because it's more flexible for a DM... when you're writing up modules, just make the she-cultists of Diana divine spellcasters with entangle and the gnomish herbalist hedge-wizards of Thure arcane spellcasters with lesser restoration.
I have one nag about your Witch class. It just seems way too DND 3.5 for me. It would probably fit perfect in a 3.5 campaign but just doesn't seem Pathfindery enough for me. Here's my suggestion (which was based on yours) for what my vision of a Pathfinder Witch would be like.
BASICS
Focus: Enchantment, Illusion, Polymorph and Nature spells plus others based on Patron or Deity.
BAB: Poor
Hit Die: d6
Saves: Good Will
Skill Points: 4 skill points / level
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (In), Disguise (Cha), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Spells: 0th-9th as Sorcerer
Weapons/Armor: No armor, wizard weapons
Spell List: unique witch spell list
PROGRESSION
Level/Special
1 Fate, Cantrips, Arcane Bond, Patron/Diety/Universal Belief
2 Brew Potion
3 Lucky (+1)
4 Wild Shape (1/day)
5 Wild Empathy
6 Trackless Step
7 Lucky (+2)
8 Wild Shape (2/day)
9 -
10 A Thousand Faces
11 Lucky (+3)
12 Wild Shape (3/day)
13 Improved Flight (Perfect)
14 Timeless Body
15 Lucky (+4)
16 Wild Shape (4/day)
17 -
18 Mass Baleful Polymorph
19 Lucky (+5)
20 Wild Shape (5/day)
ABILITIES
Patron, Diety or Universal Belief: Witches derive their power from a patron, diety or belief in a universal principle or cosmic force. If the patron or diety is of good alignment, then the Witch gains access to all spells with the Cure descriptor when they are available to her. Evil alignment -> Inflict spells. Neutral -> choose if Patron doesn't lean one way or the other. This decision also affects whether her Fate Powers help allies or hinder her foes. A Witch may change allignment and/or patron or diety if she so desires but the process can take time (DM's descretion) and often angers her former patron.
Fate: Witches have the supernatural ability to control fate and fortune. She gains access to a pool of fate points (similar to a Monk with Ki) which is equal to 1 point per two levels, plus her Wisdom modifier (and 2 from the Extra Fate feat). As long as she has at least 1 Fate point in her pool, she retains her Lucky special ability.
Fate Powers: Suggestions on Fate Powers? Fate Spinner PrC might have some good ideas for this.
Cantrips: As other spellcasters.
Arcane bond: As wizard.
Brew potion: As the feat, granted 1 level earlier than normally possible.
Lucky (Ex): Witches are the masters of luck and fate and thus gain a +1 Luck bonus to all saving throws as long as she has at least one point left in her Fate Pool. This bonus increases by one every 4 levels after level 3.
Wild Shape (Su): As druid but animal or magical animal only.
Wild Empathy (Ex): As druid ability
Trackless Step (Ex): As druid ability
A Thousand Faces (Su): As druid ability
Improved Flight (Ex): Witches are adept at flying. Whether though spell or magic item, she flies with the manueverability of Perfect. She does not gain this while flying by means of a mount like a hippogriff.
Timeless Body (Ex): As druid ability
Mass Baleful Polymorph (Sp): At 18th level, the Witch gains the ability to cast Mass Baleful Polymorph 1/day. This functions identical to Baleful Polymorph except it can affect 1 target per 2 levels in the Witch class. Also, the Witch can set the duration to whatever she likes if she does not want the effect to be perminant. This is a spell-like ability that is equivivent to a 9th level spell.
Is there anything that I left out that a Witch class absolutely should have? I purposely threw out the ritual, coven abilities since they weren't really fleshed out and not every witch would find need for those (especially player characters). They'd make great feats though and I believe that one of the 3.5 splat books has a nice big section on ritual casting and such. There's still a couple of spots open for it if needed though.
And if anyone wants to take this any further, we'll have to think of ideas for Fate Powers. I know, I left the best part out. :)
Lucky is a mechanical impact but I was going for a different overall flavor, I guess. Luck and fortune is that flavor as opposed to the class that curses you. Witches are know for curses but I felt it restricts the class to the level of "any non-good" when you're almost assuredly going to have to go "any non-lawful" to begin with. It can also, as I read earlier in this thread, offend those that practice witchcraft. Luck and fortune is more universal and can be used to help and heal (the good witch) or hinder and harm (the bad witch). It could be open to those of any alignment as it should be if possible.
I also held back on the Wildshape quite a bit too. Someone earlier brought this up and I thought they had a good point. Witch isn't really the class to use Wild Shape to turn into some big attack creature. It's usually only used as a stealthy disguise or get away.
Just so you know, the Curse wasn't removed, it was just rolled into the Fate class feature. Obviously, any witch who strays more towards evil will use Curse-like abilities with their Fate Points and good witches will use bardic music-like boosts to help her allies in battle if she so desires. Other uses of Fate Points would include rerolling (or allowing an ally to reroll) a failed roll again playing off the whole fate/luck idea. Granting a bonus to a skill check, save, attack roll etc would be an obvious one as well. Later on she could get some kind of Stun effect from this as that would fit the theme.
I didn't think about it long enough to decide whether the Bardic Music mechanic would work better than the Monks Ki Point mechanic for this purpose. I guess it would depend on what other kinds of uses could be tied into the Fate ability.
If you pick a good patron, you get access to cure spells; if you pick an evil patron you get access to inflict spells; or if neutral patron, then select one or the other as a one-time choice.
This sounds terribly familiar...oh yeah! :)
Yeah, I wish a little more was done with the NPC classes in Pathfinder to keep them subpar and easy, yet a little more flavorful, particularly in the way you suggest. Even one unusual bonus spell that's outside the norm can make a big difference flavor wise.
Go ahead and add one. I promise, I won't tell anyone. :)
My view of the Witch is largly based on the Druid as this was the concept that they were derived from. They used to be one in the same until outside forces injected a healthy dose of myth onto them. Of course, I had to also inject a lot of that myth onto the Witch class as well because, well, if I didn't, we'd just have the Druid. Having said all that, I believe the Witches are well known for having sway over animals...and this is Pathfinder. Class features aren't at a minimum here. If she's going to be equivilent in overall power to the rest of the base classes, she's going to probably need more than what I gave her although a nice selection of Fate Powers might get her there.
Plus, you probably didn't notice but I nixed the Diplomacy skill effectively replacing it with Wild Empathy which is diplomacy with animals. I can't see a Witch being the standard diplomatic type. She's typically more on the fringe of society.
And the Mass Baleful Polymorph...yeah, I lifted that from Willow. :)
In fact, I almost called it You are all pigs!
And the Mass Baleful Polymorph...yeah, I lifted that from Willow. :)
In fact, I almost called it You are all pigs!
And then the damn halfling rogue steals one... :D
Apologies if I'm out of line asking this here, but are you the Frogboy whose products I've been using since halcyon days of OS/2?
Apologies if I'm out of line asking this here, but are you the Frogboy whose products I've been using since halcyon days of OS/2?
No, sorry. Must be a different Frogboy.
But witches learn their Art. They aren't born with it. But they don't have to learn it "scientifically." They don't fit into the wizard mold or the sorcerer mold. And they get nature magics that may make even druids wary of them, since they know that arcane casters normally don't have such an easy time of emulating.Wizards need books and experiments to learn their Art, sorcerers have to practice what they have naturally, but witches have to learn a few secrets from a wise old woman that knows them, and then spend lots of time in solitude learning how those secrets pertain to her, learning magic on a visceral level that is hard to convey only in words.
I might be short on time for a lengthy reply.. but I wanted to reply that this was a worthy counter-point. Good job. Very well reasoned and thought out.
And your post wasn't too long.
No, sorry. Must be a different Frogboy.
Hehe, okay. Brad Wardell of Stardock uses the handle on game forums.
But witches learn their Art. They aren't born with it. But they don't have to learn it "scientifically." They don't fit into the wizard mold or the sorcerer mold.
On-topic... I've been developing a system which I've been tenatively calling "mysticism." It intends to fill a niche pretty close to this one. It actually grew out of my thoughts in the "What does psionics mean to you?" thread, but the crystal-and-ectoplasm fetish is only one option. It uses a combination of spell-like and supernatural abilities which can be developed through traditional training or personal discipline, so it's neither arcane nor divine but definitely still magic. The spell-like portion is point based, and calls the points ki specifically so that the Pathfinder monk can be included as a mystic class (half-caster, paladin/ranger equivalent).
Anyway, despite the 'ki' terminology I don't want this to be specifically Asian-flavored, and I'd completely overlooked good ol' European "woman magic" as fitting the mold quite well. Thank you for pointing that out! :)
This is a really good topic, as I love GR version of the Witch, and I'm going Pathfinder, I've been thinking of updating it. Lots of good ideas I like the way curse has eveloved to fate points.
However Frogboy perhaps the fate system could go on a sligtly differing track.
Fate points pool should remain the same, but the points can be given to herself or others as a +/- 1 per point to all rolls for a duration of 1 round per point. Limited to the following.....
Level
1 (by touch only)
4 (Ranged touch or Familiar)
8 (Target has fetish or other item on them that belongs to the Wicth)
12 (Wicth has item, hair or personal item that belongs to the target)
16 (Line of sight)
20 (Wicth knows the target)
Not sure if I like calling it fate maybe charms, but in either case it works. 1st level wicths often helped in child birth, and with high death rates they could casts this by saying "Goddess know this childed is fated to live, gifted by the love of her family" while holding the child, thus giving a +1 to saving thows to stave off disese. It fits nicely.
As I said still working on my own version but this is more along the lines of how I'd handle fate.
Also while I do like the Hag bloodline for a sorc. it dosen't feel like the classic witch, GR did it by having a PC which allows the witch to become a hag, still as a bloodline concept it is cool.
TTFN DRE
I like the idea and you introduced [reminded me] of something that is very much a staple of the Witch. I just don't know if level is the proper thing to base this off of.
Using your idea and in trying to translate that into realistic game rules, which is what 3.x has always been based on, I'd suggest adjusting the DCs for Fate Powers (and/or perhaps spells in general) based on familiarity with the target similar to how scrying works (or at least used to if they changed it).
Maybe something like:
-1 Total Stranger
+0 Knows of or has heard of the target
+1 Has met or has encountered the target before
+2 Witch has item, hair or personal item that belongs to the target
+3 Target has fetish or other item on them that belongs to the Witch
This might seem scewed but most of the time, she's going to take a -1. This penalty would hopefully offset by those instances when the Witch would be targeting someone specific. Meeting them or encountering them gives you a slight edge against them. If you can acquire something personal from them you get a better edge and if you can trick them into possessing something that belongs to you, they're in trouble. Makes for great NPC flavor too but also makes for fun side quests.
Thanks, I forgot all about this lore on witches. Wonder what else I forgot.
EDIT:
Maybe the totals should just acumulate:
-1 Total Stranger
+0 Knows of or has heard of the target
+1 Has met or has encountered the target before
+1 Witch has item, hair or personal item that belongs to the target
+1 Target has fetish or other item on them that belongs to the Witch
Not a bad idea with scrying, although like you not sure about changes to that yet. You might also want to add a + for working within a Coven for this. Covens to my thinking aren't as formal, orgainzed, or powerful then a Temple or Wizards Guild, but if a Coven could add a collective Fate points pool together in a Ritual "boil boil toil and....." well you get it. That would make them very powerful, and you wouldn't even have to break traditonal coven sizes, 3,4,5,7,9 & 13 (magical numbers don't you know). To steal a phrase it would be like a chemistry study group except more newt.
TTFN DRE
P.S. wait a minute, scrying is tied into spellcraft I think. Not sure Fate usage should be tied into a skill thats already going to be maxed out by any magic user. Like the idea but I have to think on this one.
2. I agree that the capstone might be a bit weak... maybe it gives the sorcerer himself an equal "hit chance" when he'd otherwise miss? (P.S. love the Tin Woodsman reference, but I've never really been fond of effects that make you damage yourself, for some reason: a bit too Keystone Kops/Three Stooges for me in a fantasy game, maybe).
I actually had something horrifying rather than comic in mind, but I guess I don't know many horror stories, so I couldn't think of a better example than the Tin Woodman, which gave the wrong impression. Picture eyes going wide, screams of terror...
And I end that thought like Digitalelf :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I also held back on the Wildshape quite a bit too. Someone earlier brought this up and I thought they had a good point. Witch isn't really the class to use Wild Shape to turn into some big attack creature. It's usually only used as a stealthy disguise or get away.
Just don't tell Amy that :-)
Dario Nardi,
I'm very pleased that my suggestions were of some help to you.
The basic idea of circle magic from the forgotten realms is that one catser leads but all other casters add levles to the spell,also metamagic feats are collective meaning <while in a circle> if one has a meta feat all have access to the meta feat.
I personally have house ruled that the number of participants within a circle decreases the level of the meta feat by 1/3 so a full circle of witches with 13 casters would be able to do a maximized spell at no additonal cost. Plus it fits with the 3 stygian witches from myth and lore.
This may seem a bit overpowered but when you really need that divination spells to give the players a clue by 4 it had better work. The same with the cursed noblemans son that the adventures had to bring to the witches, the main witch might be only 5th or 6th but when she and her sisters work in concert they can achieve the 12th lvl needed to cure his lycanthropy.
The source books I site for the circle magic are the shining south, The magic of faerun and the "eastern" source book with thay and the witches of rasheman. I cant remember the exact name for it. The first two are an excellent source for ritual/circle magic.
As far as the shape change goes. I limit "my" witches to the forms of raven/hawk(player choice) snake(up to medium type constrictor/wolf(player choice, once chosen cant be changed)or aquatic form/polymorph disguse effect(humanoid only). These are my house rules but I havnt had any complaints.
This next ones going to start a real firestorm but I give my witches free metamagic feats similar to the wizard when they reach a certain level simply because of what they are. They start at 3rd level with brew potion for free. They also have master alchemist as a class feature so they can brew potions above 3rd level. Next when they reach 7th they get craft woundrous items for free. Then at 12th they get craft rod/staff/wand. I know they are 3 seperate feats now but its my rules so I'll be generous if I want to. if you like rule they get wands at 9th and the rest at 12th.
Anyway thats how I build my witch class. I dont have an official write up but I have tried to make the witch feel like a true straight outta the story books type creature.
Good gameing to you.
I've always thought about the prestige class in Magic of Faerun that allows for potion brewing above 3rd level. It would be interesting having the fighter in the group pull out some crazy super high level potion. Unfortunately, I've never got around to creating and playing one.
However, this is an excellent idea for the Witch class. The big question would be what would she have on her spell list and how she casts spell. My version of the Witch just has a standard Sorcerer casting style but that doesn't bode well for potion brewing. I see the need for a more Wizardly casting style. I guess the only other two options would be a closed spell list like the Beguiler or a combo like the Spirit Shaman. Either way, her spell list is going to be unique and would need to be drawn up, spell by spell.
I've always thought about the prestige class in Magic of Faerun that allows for potion brewing above 3rd level. It would be interesting having the fighter in the group pull out some crazy super high level potion. Unfortunately, I've never got around to creating and playing one.
However, this is an excellent idea for the Witch class. The big question would be what would she have on her spell list and how she casts spell. My version of the Witch just has a standard Sorcerer casting style but that doesn't bode well for potion brewing. I see the need for a more Wizardly casting style. I guess the only other two options would be a closed spell list like the Beguiler or a combo like the Spirit Shaman. Either way, her spell list is going to be unique and would need to be drawn up, spell by spell.
Witch spell list has been a topic of debate for a long time. Many go Arcane (ie sorcerer) or Divine (ie Druid) but almost everyone wants elements of the other in the bigger picture. The other school of thought is that the class should have a unique class list, for the record this is where I stand. I would suggest this....
New Class of magical power Witchcraft: It includes the following. All spells (Arcane and Divine) that fall into the following categories:
Transmutation (this may or maynot replace wild shape ablity)
Enchantment
Conjuration
Divination or Abjuration (not sure which I would prefer, I don't want the class way too powerful)
And any healing spells.
Reason I say all spells that fall under these categories is to invoke the feeling that Wicth's exist somewhere outside the normal rules of Wizardy and Priesthood, much like the Sorcerer.
Also everyone has been debating giving such a class domain effects, I tend to not want to do this, but I did toy with the idea of sorta doing something like this but in terms Elemental powers. The Wicth in question would be alinged to a general direction (North, South, East, and West) as a sort of focus for her magic. North would be Air spells, focused on Conjuration, South would be Fire spells, focused on Enchantment, East would be Earth spells, focused on Abjuration, West would be Water spells, focused on Divination. I could be wrong about the directions and elements (I have to brush up on my Witch lore). In the end however most of the ideas were too much work or better for a Elmentalist class. Mainly because of DnD's funky elemnents. Still taking a dirction and gaining elemental domains might not be a bad idea.
One other thing regarding Frogboy's fate system, maybe we could have a Wicth's familar be the source of her fate points, or at lest a boom to fate points instead of the way a Wizard uses a familar. Again to invoke the fact that a Wicth is something other then orthdox magick user.
TTFN DRE
I also held back on the Wildshape quite a bit too. Someone earlier brought this up and I thought they had a good point. Witch isn't really the class to use Wild Shape to turn into some big attack creature. It's usually only used as a stealthy disguise or get away.Just don't tell Amy that :-)
Never actually watched the show but I can imagine. :)
Not sure if I'd overall ban this kind of thing from the Witch or not. Only getting Wildshape once every four levels would limit any Witch who doesn't specialize in it (by taking the Extra Wildshape feat) from doing it every encounter like a Druid can and if she did, she'd quickly run out, losing her sneaky get away option. If you're going to specialize in Wild Shape, you might as well be a Druid.
Considering that you need CHA for casting and DEX to stay alive, then tack on WIS for the Fate powers, it leaves little left over for the STR and CON you'd need to be very effective at it.
I was also considering having the Witch's WIS modifier apply to AC like the Monk depending on whether she has Mage Armor or Shield on her list. She certainly isn't going to be able to wear armor.
I was more thinking a unique spell list but one that encompasses most of what you stated. I would just want the control over it that it deserves. We would be plucking spells off the Wizard, Druid, Cleric and Bard lists...pretty much all of 'em. It makes it harder to throw out a general rule like "any spell of this type". I have a feeling some quirky things would happen if players got creative with it.
I like the idea of the North, East, West, South and their ties to the elements (another thing I forgot about). I just don't really know how to tie that one in really. I'm not big on the Domain Powers either and I doubt that either of our proposed Witch classes have room for any big abilities. Something minor might work like a small bonus to something depending on which one you take. Maybe just something like adding a class skill that you normally wouldn't get or a small skill bonus on something. Definitely need to slip that in there somewhere.
Not sure what you mean the witch's familiar part and how that would tie to Fate Points or Powers. Not sure if this would be necessary though. I understand the desire to make the class feel as different as possible to a standard Wizard or Sorcerer but ASAIK, Witch lore is where there they acquired their familiar from anyway. The familiar is actually more witch than wizard and I don't know if it would make sense tying Fate to the familiar.
Keep the ideas coming though. This is good stuff.
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A small idea here.
1/2 flavor 1/2 cool power.
Give the Witch the ability to summon a special Cauldron 1/month that ups the power of the potions and/or alchemical items she creates at the cost of some of her other abilities.
General Idea: Witch summons the cauldron on the night of a full moon, speaking her sinister words of magic, she makes a poison out of scorpion legs, spider fangs, and bat wings that, for arguments sake, would be a DC14 ingested poison that deals 1d6/1d6 con/con damage on a normal creation day. However, this batch of poison has a DC16 save and adds +1 to the con damage done.
Mechanics: The bonuses granted to the special cauldron creation are provided by giving up a spell slot, or multiple spell slots, for an entire month. Cost is 1 level of spell slot per +1 bonus. In the example above, the witch gives a +2 to the DC of the poison and a +1 to damage. Thus, the witch would have to give up a 3rd level spell slot for a month. Or, you could give up a 2nd and a 1st level spell slot as well. (or 3 1st).
The items created in this fashion only last a month before they crumble to dust, turn to water, etc... When the 30 days has expired, the witch gets her spell slots back and any items created in this way become useless.
Just an idea.
:D
I was more thinking a unique spell list but one that encompasses most of what you stated. I would just want the control over it that it deserves. We would be plucking spells off the Wizard, Druid, Cleric and Bard lists...pretty much all of 'em. It makes it harder to throw out a general rule like "any spell of this type". I have a feeling some quirky things would happen if players got creative with it.
In general and a perfect world I'd agree with you, but since my prefered GR Witch may not be updated to Pathfinder, and its doubtful if any 3pp version of the Witch will ever get popular enough to have a base line spell list, we have to go with the types of spell list that already exist. AS to quirky things, lets face it Players are going to do that no matter what.
I like the idea of the North, East, West, South and their ties to the elements (another thing I forgot about). I just don't really know how to tie that one in really. I'm not big on the Domain Powers either and I doubt that either of our proposed Witch classes have room for any big abilities. Something minor might work like a small bonus to something depending on which one you take. Maybe just something like adding a class skill that you normally wouldn't get or a small skill bonus on something. Definitely need to slip that in there somewhere.
Again I used domains because people are use to them, it gives a base line. allowing smaller 'edges' as it were might be a better way to go, but this is a case where a little research will go a long way. I don't want to tie down directions and elements to alingments, but I have a feeling in folklore directions might have a fairly big impact on what kind of witch you are.
In fact some of the class ablites that have been put out on this tread might be taliored to a direction instead of a general ablity that every Witch gets. This would work something like a bloodline, for example lets just say Eastern Witch's tend to brew potion, then at level x they get greater potion brewing via a culdren.
Not sure what you mean the witch's familiar part and how that would tie to Fate Points or Powers. Not sure if this would be necessary though. I understand the desire to make the class feel as different as possible to a standard Wizard or Sorcerer but ASAIK, Witch lore is where there they acquired their familiar from anyway. The familiar is actually more witch than wizard and I don't know if it would make sense tying Fate to the familiar.
Keep the ideas coming though. This is good stuff.
Basicaly if we use any type of point system for Charm/fate/hex, whatever we want to call it then allow the familiar to have a reserve of points that the Witch may tap into to use. I'll admit however that I want this mainly due to the fact that I've always felt that 3.5 familiar rules were danm near useless and a complet waste of a magic users time. Familiars, if we are going to have any sort of use for them, have to be important and not touch window dressing, which is how I regard them right now. I'd also like to tie them somehow to a Book of Shadows concept, but I'm still working out how I'd want the Book of Shadows to work, I'm leaning to both a spell book and grimore concept that allows the Witch to use bardic knowledge with fate points, but I haven't worked out a system yet.
Anyways keep this going, its given me no end of ideas of how to update my GR Witch class, heck who knows might even see print one day.
TTFN DRE
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Hi Dario,
Will the Witch class see print, similar to Secrets of Pact Magic, or is this a messageboard fan project?
I played a witch character way back in 1st or 2nd edition, can't remember now whether it was a Wizard themed as a witch, or if it was an actual witch class? I remember her being raised in a cave under the sea by the same sea hags who shipwrecked the vessel her father traveled on. She may have been a half sea-elf, probably the only reason she survived the wreck. She learned her craft from the hags, but fled to the surface when she discovered the truth of their role in the shipwreck that killed her father.
Anyway, I've always held a fascination with the witch as a class, and have attempted my own versions over the years.
One theme that I tried to go with was that while witches might once have been the primary casters, and that wizards and druids evolved from them or stole their ideas, witches in current times live in the shadow of wizards and druids who seem to have eclipsed them - the academic methods of wizards in particular lend themselves better to recording knowledge and passing it through the generations or being re-discovered in lost tomes from distant ages than the self-taught methods or oral traditions of witches.
I feel to compete with the likes of wizards and druids, witches supplement their oral traditions with scavenging whatever knowledge they can find from other casters.
Witches may revere Mother Nature in a similar way to druids, or they may gain their knoweldge from otherworldly sources such as pacts with demons, contact with ghosts or appeasing local faeries, and this may have an influence on their powers gained or spell lists.
Whether casting arcane or diving spells, I think witches acquire spells through a patchwork combination of arcane, divine and their own experimentation, possibly recording notes in books or through song or dance or macrame so they can repeat these steps.
I guess my point is that while witch spells seem to be drawn from both arcane and divine sources, this is completely natural for a witch, and they have their ways of stitching threads from various magic sources together to produce their spell effects.
In general and a perfect world I'd agree with you, but since my prefered GR Witch may not be updated to Pathfinder, and its doubtful if any 3pp version of the Witch will ever get popular enough to have a base line spell list, we have to go with the types of spell list that already exist. AS to quirky things, lets face it Players are going to do that no matter what.
A sort of tangential thought...
Sometimes GMs are not comfortable with new, 3rd-party spells even if they like a class design.
Maybe there isn't one witch spell list. Instead, there are different books--like the spell books presented in Dragon Magazine over the years, each one containing spells belonging to a particular (in)famous caster or a focused theme.
The main book contains only spells from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Other books contain new spells, and a GM may make some available while excluding others. The differences aren't formalized by school or anything, just thematic and more easily tailored to particular campaign worlds.
Or maybe a subsystem inwhich the Witch 'Crafts' spells from other disiplinces. Hence she has spells both divine and arcane, but not many from either.
TTFN DRE
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As I think has been mentioned up-thread, a disadvantage of a unique spell list for any new class is that it will never be updated as the standard class spell lists are. Practically every sourcebook contains new spells for bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, wizards etc, some sourcebooks are dedicated to this, eg "Sepll Compendium". None will contain new spells for witches, unless witch spells are defined as all spells of an existing domain/school/descriptor/type: animal, enchantment, transmutation, weather etc.
Even though I don't think this would work, as the types the witch needs aren't defined in the current version of the game. I miss divine spheres from 2Ed.
Either the witch is forever locked-in with her current spell list, or the GM needs to assess spells from any source on a case-by-case basis. Of course you can give guidelines of what might be appropriate themes for additional spells as a checklist, but even where this has been done in previous publications, it has been less than successful, as there are always uncertainties.
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Or maybe a subsystem inwhich the Witch 'Crafts' spells from other disiplinces. Hence she has spells both divine and arcane, but not many from either.
An interesting concept, though it sounds like it might be an advanced kind of mechanic, which might push the witch beyond the reach of new players. I'm not sure how you could keep such a mechanic simple-to-use?
I recall Iron Heroes having a "Mage the Ascension" style magic creation system whereby you think what type of effect you want your spell to have, and then you construct and cast it. I didn't really look into it all that deeply, so I can't recall how simple or compatible it was alongside regular casters (it was a replacement system for a high-combat / low-magic campaign), but it might provide some ideas or inspiration for a spell crafting subsystem for witches?
Edit: I'd also be wary of introducing any magic subsystems. James Jacobs has expressed his views on Psionics and power points as a sub-system that allows players to break the game, and in relation to Pathfinder RPG, I think his views are worth considering. A spell crafting subsystem would have to be pretty darn good not to fall into similar traps.
Darkwhite, I think you've hit the heart of the matter. Seems it almost be worth the trouble of a 3pp publisher, maybe me if I ever got the money and act together to do it, to come up with "The Other Players Handbook" with 11 classes that can be cool, fill a nich but get the proper support. Maybe get the classes from the best of 3.x era material.
Archer
Witch
Tinker
Warlock
Mystic
Knight
So on an so fourth. Sure we got that before, and we're getting it now with Pathfinder, but I'll put money down that Tome of Secrets Knight will not be like any other night. Never mind a true Witch spell list.
Thats why I suggested just taking from schools, its not a great solution I'll agree but it at lest gives comminality.
As for the crafting spells one could keep it simple, give the witch a book of shadows, which can 'absorb' X number of spells, X bing a number, and a spell costing 1 per spell level, + the type. Druid spells cost +1, Arcane and Divine +2, Bard and other types of specialized spells +3. Ehh nevermind even as I'm writng this its getting too complex. Think I'll turn in now. tommorow I'll start putting together my Witch class from my group. If I like it enough I'll share.
TTFN DRE
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I'm not really fond of the idea of a "witch" class because I find it too limiting a concept. The point I was trying to make which seems to be totally ignored is that you don't need a class for every single concept. Witches by thier nature are not a cohesive school of thought, you don't need to write up a single "right" way to describe a witch. A witch could be a cleric, a sorcereress, a druid, or even a fey or diabolic warlock. The only common thread of a witch is that it's a person who's usually not schooled in mainline learning and frequently is mentored by another and it's usually female because women were typically excluded from all other sorts of learning.
You're quite right. However, couldn't the same be said for the Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, Ranger? With the right feats, couldn't these all be different flavours of the fighter class?
I think the witch as the strange/wise old woman living in the mud hut in the thick of forest/swamp is a fantasy icon that has been neglected in D&D. Certainly, the witch could be portrayed using cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard classes, but a class does two things:
1) Immediately recognisable when a new player is asked "would you like to play the cleric, druid, paladin or witch?" Hell, when I first started playing, I didn't even know what the words cleric, druid or paladin meant - one of my players still can't pronounce "druid" - but everyone knows what a witch is. There are also roleplaying assumptions associated with being a witch that players immediately understand.
2) Gives focus to the concept, and provides a framework on which to hang other themes. For example, we've already identified familiars, hexes/curses, charms, shapechanging, broomsticks/flying, elements/weather, pacts with otherworldly beings. Previous witch classes have provided candle magic and other concepts. It's one thing to apply witch themes over other classes, but I think it loses focus. I think greater versatility can be gained by providing a witch class to apply other witch themes/specialisations over. I think Barbarians, Monks, Paladins and Rangers are richer for having their own classes.
Should a witch be a new class, or a collection of themes (background story, feats, alternate class abilities, new spells etc) that could be applied to a range of classes? Couldn't a book dedicated to witches provide both approaches?
I think we've all played D&D long enough to acknowledge you can build a wide variety of concepts using only the base classes, so I don't think anyone totally ignored your point. I just think there's room for druid-witches, sorcerer-witches, wizard-witches AND a witch class. Just as I have a player playing a cleric who presents himself as a paladin, players will always be free to build a witch any way they feel, and a new witch class will provide many new options - feats, spells etc - that any class can use.
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My hope is that the witch class sees print in the next 2 months as a Pathfinder RPG compatible product.
Aahh, I was hoping this was where this discussion was leading! :-)
I have a lot of spells that seem to go well with a witch, and I love the hexblade and feel he needs an upgrade too.
Very interesting!
As for the class itself... sorry but this is mostly me thinking aloud and might be sort of tedious...
If by "tedious" you mean "intriguing"?
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The ability to curse somewhat like a hexblade i feel is essential to the witch. What's a witch without cussing?LET'S VOTE....
Hexblade and Duskblade are taken. For a warrior version of the witch, how about...a) Baneblade
b) Nightblade
c) Witch knight
d) Tormentor
e) Nemesis
f) Other ___?
possible f)Athame(Witch Knife)
Witch Armor Class...
Looking at various instances of the witch, I see that witches tend to have poor armor class. I mean really poor with some exceptions.
Here's what the other classes have.
- Wizard and Sorcerer: The mage armor and shield spells feel inappropriate... these spells are inspired by battle. Wizards will usually have one of these and sorcerers may or may not.
- Cleric: Cleric armor spells are weak but clerics already wear armor.
- Druids: They have barkskin as a 2nd-level spell and not much else, but they wear armor.
One option is to give witches the cleric defensive spells or something similar. Maybe give them sanctuary plus a protective amulet spell that grants a bonus to AC similar in progression to shield of faith. This might be the more reasonable choice.
Another option is to give them no armor defense spells but give them a bonus to AC equal to their Charisma bonus, sort of like the monk. This option sounds sexy (metaphorically speaking) but might be unbalanced.
A third option is to give them nothing--after all, they need some weakness in light of their benefits. I don't like this option so much.
Thoughts?
Elemental resistance spells at early levels, perhaps dependent on the Witch's directional focus. Also maybe spell, enchantment type that either dazes or seduces people who want to hurt her. I'd say circles of protection at lower levels but that seems powerful.
TTFN DRE