I like it a lot!
Wildshape's purpose is also giving special abilities like climb, fly or swim speed, scent, reach, improved grab etc. It adds versatility to the group.
DW
|
After all that chatter about turning the Wild Shape stat bonuses into racial bonuses, and allowing them to replace the Druid's innate stat bonuses (making the Gnome or Halfling in Dire Tiger form no weaker than the 1/2 Orc in Dire Tiger form), it went to a *size* bonus?
Yeesh. Turn into an animal the same size as you are, and get a 'size' bonus to an attribute? I guess that makes sense, in the Bizarro world.
It doesn't look like enlargement bonuses stack, but perhaps size bonuses do stack and a Druid could benefit from some sort of Enlarge Person / Animal Growth item? Hard to say.
I like it. Like the bard class, my main group isn't that interested in this class, but these changes might inspire one of my players to try one out. I like wildshape a little now (never liked how it worked before), and I especially like having an alternative option if you don't want animal companions (Player or GM). I just quickly glanced through the preview… Do druids still spontaneously summon creatures? One thing that was a hassle in one group I'm in was the druid player summoning several creatures, having an animal companion, and his PC, and taking FOREVER to resolve his round's worth of actions . We wouldn't have minded it so much if he had to prepare his PC that way. But having it as an "always available option" didn't sit well with the group, and he agreed to tone the monster summoning down.
It seems that I am incapable of making DM Blake happy. So be it. The new rules might not let Lini the elephant to move trees, but it also does not let her outshine the melee classes with a single class ability either, and I believe this to be more than a fair trade. Especially when you consider the Druid is a full spellcasting class with an animal companion.
Jason Bulmahn
She may not be lifting trees as an elephant, but by turning into a huge quadruped she should still be multiplying her carrying capacity by 6. And that's still pretty respectable.
I really like the new wildshape.
I wonder if Natural Spell been changed at all. In 3.5 it was a must have feat for any sane druid, and it was rather overpowered.
It seems that I am incapable of making DM Blake happy. So be it. The new rules might not let Lini the elephant to move trees, but it also does not let her outshine the melee classes with a single class ability either, and I believe this to be more than a fair trade. Especially when you consider the Druid is a full spellcasting class with an animal companion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
No no no.
Quite the contrary.
DM_Blake truly liked the fighter preview, and raved about the paladin preview. DM_Blake liked the cleric preview and the sorcerer preview.
Further, DB_Blake liked almost all of the bard preview, and even likes the conversion to rounds/day and the need for a bard to conserve his music. He would give the bard changes a 7 out 10, maybe even an 8, but he grants that most of his ongoing posts may not have felt that way since they primarily dwelled on the part not to his liking. To wit, check out DM_Blakes original post, it was #2 or 3 I think in the bard preview thread.
5 out of 6 ain't bad.
And DM_Blake likes much of this preview too. Animal companion changes look great. Some of the other druid fluff seems nicer too.
It's just that glaring hole with Wildshape that leaves DM_Blake liking this preview far less than the other 5. And as he said, he agrees Wildshape needed to be reined in, he just doesn't think it needs to be ground up and buried in a deep dark hole.
(sorry for the third-person stuff; once I got started that way, it just felt wrong to switch)
Even the druid who, unlike Lini, actually pumps up their STR and DEX to be able to fight (at the cost of WIS and CHA, will never be able to do it enough to be effective, not with 5 ability scores out of 6 that make a difference to the melee druid. That's even more MAD than paladins.Not sure where the idea that you need 5 stats to be effective in combat comes from.
I didn't say 5 stats to be effective in combat. I said 5 stats to be effective as a druid who likes to melee (in or out of wildshape, actually).
Druids need WIS for their spells. A melee druid with an 8 WIS is going to be a really sad druid.
CHA might be a dump stat, but it's going to be embarrassing for a druid to try to handle animals and have them all run away or attack her. So while CHA isn't really required, and is certainly the least of the 5 useful stats to a melee-druid, making it a dump stat feels very un-druidic.
Pull up chair, butters popcorn and loads kittens into the catapult
No no no.
Quite the contrary.
DM_Blake truly liked the fighter preview, and raved about the paladin preview. DM_Blake liked the cleric preview and the sorcerer preview.
Further, DB_Blake liked almost all of the bard preview, and even likes the conversion to rounds/day and the need for a bard to conserve his music. He would give the bard changes a 7 out 10, maybe even an 8, but he grants that most of his ongoing posts may not have felt that way since they primarily dwelled on the part not to his liking. To wit, check out DM_Blakes original post, it was #2 or 3 I think in the bard preview thread.
5 out of 6 ain't bad.
And DM_Blake likes much of this preview too. Animal companion changes look great. Some of the other druid fluff seems nicer too.
It's just that glaring hole with Wildshape that leaves DM_Blake liking this preview far less than the other 5. And as he said, he agrees Wildshape needed to be reined in, he just doesn't think it needs to be ground up and buried in a deep dark hole.
Is DM_Blake secretly Lennox Lewis?
|
DM_Blake: I played a Beta Plus druid half-orc with Wis 12, Cha 8, and had no problem being effective in combat. You get +4 to handle your own animal companion, +3 'cause it's class skill, +1 if you put one rank, and -1 due to my low cha (for a total of +7; so I don't make the DC 10 for regular tricks... on a 1 or a 2 (big deal!) :P)
Stop blowin' hot air and start gaming already! :P
Jason: I really like the changes from Beta Plus... size bonuses are KICKASS. This is a nice boost Sir! Thank you!
DM_Blake: I played a Beta Plus druid half-orc with Wis 12, Cha 8, and had no problem being effective in combat. You get +4 to handle your own animal companion, +3 'cause it's class skill, +1 if you put one rank, and -1 due to my low cha (for a total of +7; so I don't make the DC 10 for regular tricks... on a 1 or a 2 (big deal!) :P)
Stop blowin' hot air and start gaming already! :P
Yes sir!
Director of Games
|
So, we went with a size bonus for one big reason, for those that are curious. We realized that if we chose a more common bonus (such as racial or enhancement) adjudicating the effect would be even more complicated (since you would have to compare and only take the higher bonus). I should note that this applies to spells of the polymorph school in general, not just the wild shape ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
|
DM_Blake: I played a Beta Plus druid half-orc with Wis 12, Cha 8, and had no problem being effective in combat. You get +4 to handle your own animal companion, +3 'cause it's class skill, +1 if you put one rank, and -1 due to my low cha (for a total of +7; so I don't make the DC 10 for regular tricks... on a 1 or a 2 (big deal!) :P)
Stop blowin' hot air and start gaming already! :P
Jason: I really like the changes from Beta Plus... size bonuses are KICKASS. This is a nice boost Sir! Thank you!
plus druids get the spell charm animal, so it's not like they couldn't pump their wisdom dump their charisma and just charm animals instead of handling them.
|
|
So, we went with a size bonus for one big reason, for those that are curious. We realized that if it stacked with any other common bonus (such as racial or enhancement) adjudicating the effect would be even more complicated (since you would have to compare and only take the higher bonus). I should note that this applies to spells of the polymorph school in general, not just the wild shape ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I will admit that a size bonus feels akward for it because you get a size bonus to stats, even if you wildshape into smaller or same size creatures. but it's not something that's gonna kill my enjoyment of the game. Do mutiple size bonuses stack? I'm not even sure.
|
So, we went with a size bonus for one big reason, for those that are curious. We realized that if it stacked with any other common bonus (such as racial or enhancement) adjudicating the effect would be even more complicated (since you would have to compare and only take the higher bonus). I should note that this applies to spells of the polymorph school in general, not just the wild shape ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Is this something I've missed, do size bonuses stack?
So, we went with a size bonus for one big reason, for those that are curious. We realized that if it stacked with any other common bonus (such as racial or enhancement) adjudicating the effect would be even more complicated (since you would have to compare and only take the higher bonus). I should note that this applies to spells of the polymorph school in general, not just the wild shape ability.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey Jason,
Just a quick question. It seems to me that it might just as well have been better as an untyped bonus? Then it stacks with everything, and since it's a class ability, this is not necessarily a bad thing. I can understand the polymorph spells needing a type. But the druid is changing 'like' the polymorphs, so a line stating 'except that all bonus's granted are untyped' might have worked?I understand it's already at the printers, and it's not a complaint, just curious as to whether there was some idea behind why it had to have a type.
I'll personally probably house-rule it as an untyped bonus for the druids, unless you come back with some reason that makes me go 'OH! Ok, that makes sense', which is entirely possible. :)
Matt
They did it! (unless it's a mistake) - "ring of deflection +2"
These are not the droids you're looking for.
|
Director of Games
|
Hey Jason,
Just a quick question. It seems to me that it might just as well have been better as an untyped bonus? Then it stacks with everything, and since it's a class ability, this is not necessarily a bad thing. I can understand the polymorph spells needing a type. But the druid is changing 'like' the polymorphs, so a line stating 'except that all bonus's granted are untyped' might have worked?
I understand it's already at the printers, and it's not a complaint, just curious as to whether there was some idea behind why it had to have a type.
I'll personally probably house-rule it as an untyped bonus for the druids, unless you come back with some reason that makes me go 'OH! Ok, that makes sense', which is entirely possible. :)Matt
Not really. Untyped bonuses are a rarity and for a reason. Making them a size bonus means that they do not stack with other polymorph effects, which is important to avoid confusion.. and broken-ness...
Thats a word right.. Its early. I need more coffee.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey Jason,
Just a quick question. It seems to me that it might just as well have been better as an untyped bonus? Then it stacks with everything, and since it's a class ability, this is not necessarily a bad thing. I can understand the polymorph spells needing a type. But the druid is changing 'like' the polymorphs, so a line stating 'except that all bonus's granted are untyped' might have worked?
I understand it's already at the printers, and it's not a complaint, just curious as to whether there was some idea behind why it had to have a type.
I'll personally probably house-rule it as an untyped bonus for the druids, unless you come back with some reason that makes me go 'OH! Ok, that makes sense', which is entirely possible. :)Matt
Not really. Untyped bonuses are a rarity and for a reason. Making them a size bonus means that they do not stack with other polymorph effects, which is important to avoid confusion.. and broken-ness...
Thats a word right.. Its early. I need more coffee.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ah,
But I didn't think a wild shaped druid could polymorph (or at least, if they did, it would 'end' the wild-shape (resetting them back to normal) and then apply the polymorph.But I understand the gist, which is, that without a good reason, you didn't want to do an untyped bonus. Better to leave that to a house rule then.
Enhancement was a pain in a lot of ways (too common, not stacking, didn't fit the ability).
Racial would either, as Jason said, require comparing racial bonuses (which aren't spelled out) to find the higher, or required removing the first race, then applying the second.
Yep. It might make sense for PC druids to use use a racial bonus: It's only +2 or so and levels the playing field between races when wild shaping.
It makes way less sense when a Storm Giant Druid wildshapes and loses his impressive strength score.
And as for you DM_Blake.. it looks like I misjudged you. My apologies.. I am just a bit twitchy right now after the lengthy bard discussion.
Jason
Apology accepted.
Besides, it's not like I can exactly you, with you being the creator and all, and me but a lowly tarrasque.
Besides, I'm frequently misjudged, so I hardly even notice...
|
|
Is this something I've missed, do size bonuses stack?No they do not.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ok, that's what I thought, just seemed to me somehow that it was implied it would. Only bonus I know of stacking would be dodge and untyped bonuses.
Just as an fyi, I do love the changes. From playtesting I had thought that the druid wildshape changes from before were a little bit too much to the druid (Effectively it only gave you a natural attack and replaced magic items before). From what I've noticed most people haven't commented on the fact that your continuous magic items still apply while wild shaped. This, combined with the size bonus change makes it so you can have a very very effective wildshape druid without ignoring stats at character creation or having to carefully make sure that every single animal published in a monster manual won't make the druid broken.
Now you can even start with a decent str (14) and easily get to mid to high 20s strength near end level. I love it! Makes me want to make another druid. (Just like another Fighter, Cleric, Bard, Sorcerer, Ranger, Paladin.... hey wait?)
Pull up chair, butters popcorn and loads kittens into the catapult
Politicians I told 'im, but nobody listens to the Ranger.
Enhancement was a pain in a lot of ways (too common, not stacking, didn't fit the ability).
Racial would either, as Jason said, require comparing racial bonuses (which aren't spelled out) to find the higher, or required removing the first race, then applying the second.
Yep. It might make sense for PC druids to use use a racial bonus: It's only +2 or so and levels the playing field between races when wild shaping.
It makes way less sense when a Storm Giant Druid wildshapes and loses his impressive strength score.
Edit: Majuba, I accidentally ate your post. Very sorry.
|
|
Ok, that's what I thought, just seemed to me somehow that it was implied it would. Only bonus I know of stacking would be dodge and untyped bonuses.
Also circumstance bonuses stemming from different circumstances. And racial, for some reason, though I'm not aware of any way to be a member of two different races, or why you would want those bonuses to stack if a player could find some cheat to do it :)
Edit: Majuba, I accidentally ate your post. Very sorry.
*sniffle*
It's okay, you and Jason quoted the good parts.
Only bonus I know of stacking would be dodge and untyped bonuses.Also circumstance bonuses stemming from different circumstances. And racial, for some reason, though I'm not aware of any way to be a member of two different races.
Templates (like half-dragon or vampire) apply a racial mod usually.
|
Hey Jason? (If you've got a minute. 8^)
Do you think there would there be any balance issues if they were racial bonuses? That is, was the complication issue the only reason you went with size bonuses?
I, and most of the people I play with, keep our characters in files on our computers, and it's a lot easier to keep track of bonuses like that. I'm just wondering if I'd be looking at a train wreck if I houseruled the polymorph spells into racial bonuses...
From what I've noticed most people haven't commented on the fact that your continuous magic items still apply while wild shaped. This, combined with the size bonus change makes it so you can have a very very effective wildshape druid without ignoring stats at character creation or having to carefully make sure that every single animal published in a monster manual won't make the druid broken.
You're right. That is a change from 3.5, but not a change from Beta, so I neglected to mention it.
It does help the melee druid, but no more help than a fighter gets. I'm not saying a druid needs more help than a fighter.
It's just that a druid needs WIS, likely needs some CHA (though not exactly required), and needs the same 3 ability scores that fighters need. So very few druids will start with ability scores that come very close to what fighters start with. And unless they neglect spellcasting all together, many of their increases along the way will go into WIS, not into combat scores.
With lower HP, lower BAB, no armor, and no weapons except natural ones, wildshaping into a bear or lion or whatever and then jumping into melee alongside the party's fighter becomes a truly suicidal idea.
Now that a druid can focus on magic items and spellcasting to enhance STR, DEX, and CON, just so they can melee a bit better (remember, the fighters have that stuff too), it levels the playing field a bit, but since their Wildshape changes have yanked the playing field out from under their feet, it's not enough to make the melee druid not weak.
The melee druid becomes a supplemental meleeist, like a 3.5 monk or paladin. Everyone was clamoring for those classes to get some help, and paladin has (I hope monk has too). But the melee druid is left standing where those classes used to stand, weak and ineffective in melee, or focusing so much of their resources to overcome their weakness that they don't devote enough resources to their other strengths, like spellcasting.
There had to be a middle ground.
|
Creative Director
|
Hey Jason? (If you've got a minute. 8^)
Do you think there would there be any balance issues if they were racial bonuses? That is, was the complication issue the only reason you went with size bonuses?
I, and most of the people I play with, keep our characters in files on our computers, and it's a lot easier to keep track of bonuses like that. I'm just wondering if I'd be looking at a train wreck if I houseruled the polymorph spells into racial bonuses...
The big problem there is that it gets complicated fast. Racial bonuses don't stack, so if you add them to a character, you have to go in and look at the base race and the new source to figure out which one goes and which one stays. Size bonuses, on the other hand, are a lot easier to manage since they're already sort of built around a sort of slider type bonus that changes as you change size.
Basically... size bonuses are easier to keep track of than racial bonuses.
There had to be a middle ground.
There's not much middle ground for a full caster with things like flamestrike and heal to also be a full-out equal melee combatant.
|
But the melee druid is left standing where those classes used to stand, weak and ineffective in melee, or focusing so much of their resources to overcome their weakness that they don't devote enough resources to their other strengths, like spellcasting.
Not always true. When my group was playtesting Alpha, I played a effective halfing druid. Wildshaping into a bat, and he got a +20 to touch attacks around 13th level. He liked fire... a lot. With flame blade and produce flame, he became dangerous. If something was immune to fire or had resistance, he'd wildshape into an earth elemental(or a T-rex, that was a fun session).
Hey Jason? (If you've got a minute. 8^)
Do you think there would there be any balance issues if they were racial bonuses? That is, was the complication issue the only reason you went with size bonuses?
I, and most of the people I play with, keep our characters in files on our computers, and it's a lot easier to keep track of bonuses like that. I'm just wondering if I'd be looking at a train wreck if I houseruled the polymorph spells into racial bonuses...
The big problem there is that it gets complicated fast. Racial bonuses don't stack, so if you add them to a character, you have to go in and look at the base race and the new source to figure out which one goes and which one stays. Size bonuses, on the other hand, are a lot easier to manage since they're already sort of built around a sort of slider type bonus that changes as you change size.
Basically... size bonuses are easier to keep track of than racial bonuses.
I was under the impression that racial bonus's stack. Otherwise, you have the wierd situations of two characters built with exactly the same base stats, one human, one gnome. The gnome has a strength 2 less than the human. Then apply the Half-Dragon template, and you end up with a small half-dragon and a medium half-dragon (one half human, the other half-gnome) with exactly the same str stat (since if they don't stack, the half-gnome/half-dragon's gnomish racial penalty would be replaced by the half-dragon's boost).
|
|
If the druid is mainly a melee character, wisdom isn't that important. He should have enough to access all of his spell levels, but it isn't that important. He will use mostly buffs, maybe a few summons, so he won't need an enormous save DC and since he will attack most of the time he needs fewer spells.
If he is going to use mainly attack spells he won't need that much strength. He would probably chose a small flying animal, such as an eagle or a hawk to attack his enemies from above.
It isn't that different to the cleric, except the cleric has a much greater need for a high charisma score than the druid has.
I was under the impression that racial bonus's stack. Otherwise, you have the wierd situations of two characters built with exactly the same base stats, one human, one gnome. The gnome has a strength 2 less than the human. Then apply the Half-Dragon template, and you end up with a small half-dragon and a medium half-dragon (one half human, the other half-gnome) with exactly the same str stat (since if they don't stack, the half-gnome/half-dragon's gnomish racial penalty would be replaced by the half-dragon's boost).Hey Jason? (If you've got a minute. 8^)
Do you think there would there be any balance issues if they were racial bonuses? That is, was the complication issue the only reason you went with size bonuses?
I, and most of the people I play with, keep our characters in files on our computers, and it's a lot easier to keep track of bonuses like that. I'm just wondering if I'd be looking at a train wreck if I houseruled the polymorph spells into racial bonuses...
The big problem there is that it gets complicated fast. Racial bonuses don't stack, so if you add them to a character, you have to go in and look at the base race and the new source to figure out which one goes and which one stays. Size bonuses, on the other hand, are a lot easier to manage since they're already sort of built around a sort of slider type bonus that changes as you change size.
Basically... size bonuses are easier to keep track of than racial bonuses.
You misunderstand the stacking rules.
You only discount the cumulative effect, and you always take the best bonus and worst penalty, add them together, and apply what's left:
Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
(emphasis mine)
I am not aware of any changes so far in Pathfinder that would overrule this.
|
|
The big problem there is that it gets complicated fast. Racial bonuses don't stack...
Racial does stack, size does not.
Without seeing the rules, I'm not sure how the "slider" effect of size modifiers effects here. Assuming 4th level druids have the power to shift to a Large wildshape: does a Small druid gain a larger Str bonus than a Medium druid shifting to the same shape?
Pull up chair, butters popcorn and loads kittens into the catapult
Sigh I really wish you would stop doing that they are demonic kittens they like the catapult....or at lest falling on folks from above. Humm maybe they should get wings
|
Director of Games
|
The big problem there is that it gets complicated fast. Racial bonuses don't stack...Racial does stack, size does not.
Without seeing the rules, I'm not sure how the "slider" effect of size modifiers effects here. Assuming 4th level druids have the power to shift to a Large wildshape: does a Small druid gain a larger Str bonus than a Medium druid shifting to the same shape?
A 4th level druid cannot become Large... That is not gained until 6th, IIRC. The bonuses gained a flat, regardless of the form that you assume. So, yes, a Small and a Medium druid both gain a +2 Str bonus if they assume a Medium size. Its a little odd, but this is a magic effect, so enhancing your abilities is just part of the deal.
Size is the right bonus for these buffs. It just makes them easy to use and less easily abused.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
I was under the impression that racial bonus's stack. Otherwise, you have the wierd situations of two characters built with exactly the same base stats, one human, one gnome. The gnome has a strength 2 less than the human. Then apply the Half-Dragon template, and you end up with a small half-dragon and a medium half-dragon (one half human, the other half-gnome) with exactly the same str stat (since if they don't stack, the half-gnome/half-dragon's gnomish racial penalty would be replaced by the half-dragon's boost).
Um, a penalty is not a bonus. So you'd still have the half-dragon gnome having a Str 2 less than the human half dragon.
Bonus is positive, Penalty is negative. They are not the same.
It's no different than if you cast Bull's Str on both the normal human and gnome...
--King of Vrock
Dang Gninja'd...
If the druid is mainly a melee character, wisdom isn't that important. He should have enough to access all of his spell levels, but it isn't that important. He will use mostly buffs, maybe a few summons, so he won't need an enormous save DC and since he will attack most of the time he needs fewer spells.
If he is going to use mainly attack spells he won't need that much strength. He would probably chose a small flying animal, such as an eagle or a hawk to attack his enemies from above.
It isn't that different to the cleric, except the cleric has a much greater need for a high charisma score than the druid has.
This is all true, but only if you plan to specialize. A generalizing druid, on the other hand, is in trouble here.
To me, the druid is a two-sided coin. On the one side, he has druid stuff. Spells, nature, pets, etc. All the classical stuff from literature and mythology that we think we know about druids. On the other side is theire wild side, the aiblity to transofrm into critters and tear their enemies up on the battlefield.
Now I'm all about game balance. There is no way a druid should equal a full-melee class on the battlefield AND equal a full-caster class in that realm.
Druids already have the weakest spell list of any full caster. Their spellcasting ability makes them sweet and fluffy, but ineffective, naturalists. It matters very little that they cast as many spells of the same levels as the other primary casters because they are much less effective due to their limited spell list. With the possible exception of buff spells - they seem mostly comparable in this category.
Generalizing druids also have the most MAD of any class, so their primary casting ability will likely be lower than any cleric, sorcerer, or wizard. They also will be splitting up their feats, unlike primary casters who can mostly focus on improving their spellcasting.
So with all that in mind, I think druids are already sufficiently weaker as a primary caster than all the other classes. They cannot do as much damage, control the battlefield, heal, harm, or eliminate the enemies as effectively as any other primary caster.
So for the other side of the coin, much of what I just said applies. They lack the ability scores, feats, armor, weapons, BAB, and HP to compare against the melee classes. Even the old 3.5 druid couldn't compare if he were simply limited to turning into animals and beasts - it was only when he started turning into magical stuff that he got out of hand.
So a simple fix was limiting the Wildshape to forms that don't let the druid get out of control.
But the fix that has been applied here makes them so weak in combat that this ability practically doesn't exist for the generalist druid.
Now a druid must decide while he is being rolled up. Go for Melee, or go for druid stuff - no way to do both well enough to bother with either of them.
***********************************************************************
Summary:
The pathfinder druid, as I see it, has gone from being a generalizing druid who can do many things, but none of them as well as primary classes (with a little work on toning down wildshape), to a specializing druid that is almost two classes in one, but he must choose to focus on only one specialty if he wants to be good enough at it to not be laughed at - leaving the other specialty to rot in the dust.
and broken-ness...
Thats a word right.. Its early. I need more coffee.
Jason, this is gaming. 'Broken-ness' (or brokenness, or brokxxor et al) is not only a word, it's like a genre. It's what you're trying to help clean up and fix actually.