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I am anticipating the preview for this character as I am actually going to be trying out a bard for the first time. In all of my 3e play experience I have not played one do to their inexcusable weakness. I know they were talking about changing the Monk and Bard significantly from the beta rules. So I look forward to seeing what is in store for my jester (comedy performing bard) character that is going to move into the Dragon Disciple PrC.
Have there been any leaks, I may have missed, that can wet my tongue in the meantime?
Shakespear(e).
Sorry, I can't help it sometimes...
I am anticipating the preview for this character as I am actually going to be trying out a bard for the first time. In all of my 3e play experience I have not played one do to their inexcusable weakness. I know they were talking about changing the Monk and Bard significantly from the beta rules. So I look forward to seeing what is in store for my jester (comedy performing bard) character that is going to move into the Dragon Disciple PrC.
Have there been any leaks, I may have missed, that can wet my tongue in the meantime?
I agree. I've loved the Bard concept forever, but they're inexcusably weak to play. I love the support role, but people were right when they said you could play a more powerful bard by playing a fighter/sorcerer/rogue build who specializes in enchantment. Perhaps this will be improved upon.
I agree. I've loved the Bard concept forever, but they're inexcusably weak to play. I love the support role, but people were right when they said you could play a more powerful bard by playing a fighter/sorcerer/rogue build who specializes in enchantment. Perhaps this will be improved upon.I am anticipating the preview for this character as I am actually going to be trying out a bard for the first time. In all of my 3e play experience I have not played one do to their inexcusable weakness. I know they were talking about changing the Monk and Bard significantly from the beta rules. So I look forward to seeing what is in store for my jester (comedy performing bard) character that is going to move into the Dragon Disciple PrC.
Have there been any leaks, I may have missed, that can wet my tongue in the meantime?
There was a prestige class somewhere, maybe a forgotten realms splat, called the Skald. It had a full base attack and pretty much all the bardic music abilities plus more in just ten levels.
There was also a prestige class somewhere that was intended for bards and allowed them to reach level 9 spells, made them much more useful.
I never really felt the bard was underpowered at all. On the contrary, I think it's just right. I think the belief that they're underpowered stems from the fact that, in the PHB, its right next to a class with better hit-dice, heavy armour (and the ability to cast in it) with access to 9th level spells and a faster spell progression than the sorcerer. Quite frankly, I think any class next to that (except it's buddy, the druid) would seem underpowering.
Edit: And I beleive the prestige class you mentioned is Sublime Chord from Complete Arcana. It boosts the bard to have 9th level wizard spells.
Resist temptation, kobold-san! +2/+2 will become +3/+3... and Chaine loves +3/+3! High-level bard spellcasting gets pretty good too... (used to play a gnome bard 9... with illusion spells, he was pretty much on par if not better than a wizard of the same level...)
Except maybe those 2 spell levels of difference, amount of spells, and actual power of spells cast or DC's of Spells right?
Meh, my opinion is known. I love the bard... it should just be better.
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Resist temptation, kobold-san! +2/+2 will become +3/+3... and Chaine loves +3/+3! High-level bard spellcasting gets pretty good too... (used to play a gnome bard 9... with illusion spells, he was pretty much on par if not better than a wizard of the same level...)
But...But...Dragon Desciple goodness! Breath weapons, d12 hit die, friggin' lasers strapped to your head! Well, okay no lasers. :)
But breath weapon! That's almost a laser in your head... right?
But breath weapon! That's almost a laser in your head... right?
Only if the breath weapon is a line of effect!
The bard I'm most familiar with (3.0 to 3.5) went from rather lacking at low-level 3.0, to helpful at mid 3.0, to practically required (with some awesomeness in his own right) in high to epic 3.5.
It does take a while, but when they can give the whole party +9 or +10 to all attacks, +6 to all saves, AC, damage, etc., that stacks with almost everything any other class can give, it becomes truly game-altering power.
The Beta bard picked up a good kick to fill out the low levels, and some neat tricks at higher up. I'm also looking forward to the preview (though I think this is the one class that really will have to wait for the final book to really get a good sense of).
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The bard I'm most familiar with (3.0 to 3.5) went from rather lacking at low-level 3.0, to helpful at mid 3.0, to practically required (with some awesomeness in his own right) in high to epic 3.5.
It does take a while, but when they can give the whole party +9 or +10 to all attacks, +6 to all saves, AC, damage, etc., that stacks with almost everything any other class can give, it becomes truly game-altering power.
The Beta bard picked up a good kick to fill out the low levels, and some neat tricks at higher up. I'm also looking forward to the preview (though I think this is the one class that really will have to wait for the final book to really get a good sense of).
That settles it then, I want to play a bard.
In addition to the bards generous coating of weaksauce, I think it suffers from neglect because the current version of the class was not a traditional part of the game. Same with the current version of the monk class. {I know there were bards and monks in earlier editions, but they were a very different class back then, and almost never played.} The class evolved, but other aspects of the game were never updated. In order for bards to catch up, they need their own entire table of instruments, almost like already exists for weapons or armor.
The current magical instruments are mostly jokes, that don't serve to augment the class in meaningful ways- Lyre of Building? Pipes of the Sewers? Keytar of Rokken? If bards had some good items suited for their class, it would go a long way towards rounding out the class at higher levels. If bards were more integrated into the rest of the rules they would be more powerful and not feel like an afterthought.
Note: Although I wanted to try it, I never got around to testing the Beta bard, I wonder how it compares to 3.5?
In addition to the bards generous coating of weaksauce, I think it suffers from neglect because the current version of the class was not a traditional part of the game. Same with the current version of the monk class. {I know there were bards and monks in earlier editions, but they were a very different class back then, and almost never played.} The class evolved, but other aspects of the game were never updated. In order for bards to catch up, they need their own entire table of instruments, almost like already exists for weapons or armor.
The current magical instruments are mostly jokes, that don't serve to augment the class in meaningful ways- Lyre of Building? Pipes of the Sewers? Keytar of Rokken? If bards had some good items suited for their class, it would go a long way towards rounding out the class at higher levels. If bards were more integrated into the rest of the rules they would be more powerful and not feel like an afterthought.
Note: Although I wanted to try it, I never got around to testing the Beta bard, I wonder how it compares to 3.5?
Man, if they really had access to magic keytars I might play one.
You might like Iron Kingdoms bards... They're called war bards and get access to steam powered magi-tek instruments.
That said, bards can be very very powerful, throwing out +12 and higher bonuses while still casting. Take a look at the WotCO boards, and you'll see some really cool stuff. Gimme a sec to go dig up a favorite of mine.
Wow. Talk about differing experiences. Every bard played in a game at my house ends up being a powerhouse. And this is next to hulking hurler ice trolls, argent savant force missle mage sorcerors with quick metamagic, and radiant servants of pelor in undead heavy games.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a campaign wrecker, especially since it shows up so early compared to most save or dies (and in 3.5 it really is basically a save or die, its a bit worse than save or suck).
Add to that some of the stuff you can do with bardic music and the proper feats, and it gets crazy.
Like the following. Song of the Heart(feat)+Inspirational Boost(swift spell)+Focused Performer/Focused Performance (feats)+ Dragonfire Inspiration (Feat)+Words of Creation (Exalted Feat)
End result? At 20th level, the Bard can, in the first round of combat, give the party a +14 morale bonus to hit and damage, and all successful hits do +14d6 of his chosen energy damage.
And this build nonsense has plenty of room for more, but is actually quite "normal" relative to the wierdness of other "power builds". Any dragonblooded creature of exceedingly good alignment, such as a human with gold or silver dragon ancestry, is all it takes.
I don't know, personally I think every person who thinks Bards are weak either doesn't give them credit for their buffs (if your power attacking greataxe only hit because of bardic music, then it's the bard's hit, not yours), or played one and didn't receive credit for their buffs.
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Wow. Talk about differing experiences. Every bard played in a game at my house ends up being a powerhouse. And this is next to hulking hurler ice trolls, argent savant force missle mage sorcerors with quick metamagic, and radiant servants of pelor in undead heavy games.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a campaign wrecker, especially since it shows up so early compared to most save or dies (and in 3.5 it really is basically a save or die, its a bit worse than save or suck).
Add to that some of the stuff you can do with bardic music and the proper feats, and it gets crazy.
Like the following. Song of the Heart(feat)+Inspirational Boost(swift spell)+Focused Performer/Focused Performance (feats)+ Dragonfire Inspiration (Feat)+Words of Creation (Exalted Feat)
End result? At 20th level, the Bard can, in the first round of combat, give the party a +14 morale bonus to hit and damage, and all successful hits do +14d6 of his chosen energy damage.
And this build nonsense has plenty of room for more, but is actually quite "normal" relative to the wierdness of other "power builds". Any dragonblooded creature of exceedingly good alignment, such as a human with gold or silver dragon ancestry, is all it takes.
I don't know, personally I think every person who thinks Bards are weak either doesn't give them credit for their buffs (if your power attacking greataxe only hit because of bardic music, then it's the bard's hit, not yours), or played one and didn't receive credit for their buffs.
Well to be fair that build requires other sourcebooks to make. The question is not can you make an bard exceptional good with every book out there. Its whether the core bard itself is good enough.
Well to be fair that build requires other sourcebooks to make. The question is not can you make an bard exceptional good with every book out there. Its whether the core bard itself is good enough.
Remember that non-core books also provide alot of abilities which can negate these as well. Quite alot of spells/powers/class features can't be negated or even hindered by core.
Besides, PFRPG is built under the assumption that non-core books will be allowed, so factoring non-core books into any PFRPG analysis shouldn't be unreasonable.
Well to be fair that build requires other sourcebooks to make. The question is not can you make an bard exceptional good with every book out there. Its whether the core bard itself is good enough.Wow. Talk about differing experiences. Every bard played in a game at my house ends up being a powerhouse. And this is next to hulking hurler ice trolls, argent savant force missle mage sorcerors with quick metamagic, and radiant servants of pelor in undead heavy games.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a campaign wrecker, especially since it shows up so early compared to most save or dies (and in 3.5 it really is basically a save or die, its a bit worse than save or suck).
Add to that some of the stuff you can do with bardic music and the proper feats, and it gets crazy.
Like the following. Song of the Heart(feat)+Inspirational Boost(swift spell)+Focused Performer/Focused Performance (feats)+ Dragonfire Inspiration (Feat)+Words of Creation (Exalted Feat)
End result? At 20th level, the Bard can, in the first round of combat, give the party a +14 morale bonus to hit and damage, and all successful hits do +14d6 of his chosen energy damage.
And this build nonsense has plenty of room for more, but is actually quite "normal" relative to the wierdness of other "power builds". Any dragonblooded creature of exceedingly good alignment, such as a human with gold or silver dragon ancestry, is all it takes.
I don't know, personally I think every person who thinks Bards are weak either doesn't give them credit for their buffs (if your power attacking greataxe only hit because of bardic music, then it's the bard's hit, not yours), or played one and didn't receive credit for their buffs.
I'm having trouble finding those feats in any books. I have all the completes and as far as I can tell they're not there. Are there some secret troves of Bard Power out there of which I'm not aware?
Well to be fair that build requires other sourcebooks to make. The question is not can you make an bard exceptional good with every book out there. Its whether the core bard itself is good enough.Remember that non-core books also provide alot of abilities which can negate these as well. Quite alot of spells/powers/class features can't be negated or even hindered by core.
Besides, PFRPG is built under the assumption that non-core books will be allowed, so factoring non-core books into any PFRPG analysis shouldn't be unreasonable.
Seconded.
Core bard's not great, but we'll see if the previewed bard version improves matters without shattering balance outside of core.Here, this might help:
Searrrrrchhhhhhh meeeee
I know they were talking about changing the Monk and Bard significantly from the beta rules.
Where did you hear this from? I'm sure the monk will have some notable changes, but I'll be very surprised if the bard is substantially different from the Beta version.
Well to be fair that build requires other sourcebooks to make. The question is not can you make an bard exceptional good with every book out there. Its whether the core bard itself is good enough.Remember that non-core books also provide alot of abilities which can negate these as well. Quite alot of spells/powers/class features can't be negated or even hindered by core.
Besides, PFRPG is built under the assumption that non-core books will be allowed, so factoring non-core books into any PFRPG analysis shouldn't be unreasonable.
Seconded.
Core bard's not great, but we'll see if the previewed bard version improves matters without shattering balance outside of core.Here, this might help:
Searrrrrchhhhhhh meeeee
Other than Words of Creation, none of them were in there that I could find. Perhaps I'm not using it correctly.
A few of them are from the very-recently-published Dragon Magic book. It was basically the last supplement to drop, and I didn't even know about it until recently. It has a lot of buffs for weaker classes, including Favored Soul and Sorcerer. Fun stuff!
Might be hard to find a physical copy :S
Unfortunately, as is obvious, the index isn't complete. I use it in conjunction with four or five other indexes, as well as searching the WotCO boards. I are teh thorough ;)
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I disagree in 3.5 I had a bard player who showed me from the get go that the bard is a well balanced class. A) it was rediculously well suited for the diplomancer role with very little min/max
B)When in combat it turned everyone nasty because he would use bardic music followed by haste, followed by buffing someone then move in to tasha's hideous laughter any enemy still standing. And once the lyrical spellcasting feat was allowed he did all that while maintaining his bardic music. Also with blur/mage armor/mirror image, he was annoyingly difficult to hit.
Other than a death at level 2 to a crit hit from a centipede, he was very well balanced, played well, not min maxed, and never once felt under or overpowered from level 1 to level 9
Subsequently I have played bards much to the same effect but with different spell selections and less focus on bluff. Bards were not underpowered in 3.x in my opinion. However I did love playing the beta bard. It was a lot of fun and it's improvements (especially bardic knowledge) made it a great class.
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Song of the Heart(feat)+Inspirational Boost(swift spell)+Focused Performer/Focused Performance (feats)+ Dragonfire Inspiration (Feat)+Words of Creation (Exalted Feat)
I'm having trouble finding those feats in any books. I have all the completes and as far as I can tell they're not there. Are there some secret troves of Bard Power out there of which I'm not aware?
Song of the Heart is from the Eberron Campaign Setting.
Inspirational Boost is a spell from the Spell Compendium.
Focused Performer/Performance I do not recognize.
Dragonfire Inspiration is from Dragon Magic (and requires a dragontouched racial quality, which comes free with the kobold, spellscale, and dragonborn races (and draconic and half-dragon templates), but otherwise requires a feat).
Words of Creation is from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
He did not get into using a magic Badge from the Magic Item Compendium (Badge of Courage? Badge of Inspiration? I don't remember) to get another +1 or the extremely dubious use of special instrument properties from Song & Silence to get another +1.
In my experience, Words of Creation isn't worth the bother. It shouldn't stack the way some CO folk stack it, and it's a PITA for other reasons. I'd skip it. Combining Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspirational Boost and / or the Badge thingie from the Magic Item Compendium, you've got a sick, sick, buffing machine.
If I wanted to go with a more streamlined build, I would choose *either* Song of the Heart *or* Dragonfire Inspiration (and then supplement either with the Inspirational Boost and Badge combo). Throwing all of this stuff into one character is, IMO, a bridge too far.
I'm also pretty sure that Dragonfire Inspiration *replaces* the attack modifier with the elemental damage bonus, so you wouldn't be able to make the character mentioned upthread that gives +X to attack and damage *and* +Xd6 elemental damage to all melee attacks. I could be wrong about that, 'though.
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I've actually had mixed reviews of the bard myself. I've only played two so far, but in one (3.5) the bard was the 5th member and just seemed to be stepping on the toes of the Rogue/wizard. The rogue partially specialized in non-combat so was fairly effective at the social situations. It worked out well that there were two social people, but in all reality only needed one. At the same the rogue was a fairly competent combatant. On the other hand the wizard didn't focus on buffing, but definitely took things like haste, heroism, etc. At this point it made the bard somewhat useless for buff spells as the wizard would always have them before the bard, and more spells per day as well.
The second bard ended up being a PFRPG bard running through second darkness. This time around there was no rogue, no wizard (but a sorceror) and only 4 players. This time around the bard absolutely shines because of the knowledge skills + social skills + buffing. The bard can barely do damage (1d4+4 plus 1d6 sonic or so at level 5), but has the good spells like Hideous Laughter, etc. and massive buffing ability that the sorcerer can't afford to take. It ends out working well, even though we're going to get some of the "key" buffs like haste later than normal.
I think the only thing that PFRPG bard needs to have addressed is the skill problem, as fairly quickly my DM and I realized that RAW my bard didn't have enough skills at all. We used a quote from Jason on the bard thread suggesting 8 skills / level to "fix" the perform problem and it ended up working out well. I think the thing about the bard that most people find them as weak is that they are really weak alone. They are the true support caster/player in the party and require other people... but they really make the other players shine.
Note: as far as I know only the bard is the true support player. Every other class is able to be selfish and make themselves "awesome" whereas a bard has difficulty doing that (possible with non-core books, but still difficult). Perhaps that's the reason most people find them as weak?
I think the problem with the bard is that they're always playing Robin to the rest of the group's Batman.
Ask a bard to fight? He dies.
Ask a bard to win the day with spell? He fails.
Ask a bard to fill in for a missing rogue? He fails.
Ask a bard to stand safely in the back and make everyone else into superheroes? He can do that better than anyone.
Bards have a niche, but for almost everyone who plays D&D, that niche is an unrewarding niche. Tonto may have been happy to make the Lone Ranger look good while landing a punch or two on some mook henchmen, but in the end, the Lone Ranger got all the credit for riding to the rescue.
I think that for most people playing D&D, we want to be the superhero, not the sidekick.
That's the tragic flaw of the bard. How ironic that the bard is the game's unsung hero...
What I think the bard needs is some way to actually be effective in the game in his own right. Sure, he makes a great mouthpiece for the party, shmoozing the diplomats and bluffing the townsfolk into giving up their firstborn. But that's not enough.
Unfortunately, I don't know what would make them effective without overpowering them. If they can simultaneously be the Superhero and the Sidekick, they would rule the game.
It's a tough call.
Maybe the only answer is letting them remain the unsung hero and we players have to realize that the bard class just isn't for everyone.
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Maybe the only answer is letting them remain the unsung hero and we players have to realize that the bard class just isn't for everyone.
And that seems to be the answer. The Bard's current role does appeal to select crowd of players, and few other classes fit that niche as well. Changing the class to appeal to a more general audience, the one already blessed with a half-dozen other classes to suit their fancy, would just shut out that particular play-style, IMO.
Changing something that appeals to a particular brand of fan to attempt to please everyone, all the time, runs the risk of doing what 4E did to the Forgotten Realms, transforming it into a more generic world that was supposed to appeal to a larger customer base, while (unintentionally?) destroying much of it's appeal to it's *current* fanbase.
While I've (almost) never played a Bard (although I've used them as foes as a DM, since they work great buffing a bunch of minions!), I wouldn't want to see the class changed in such a way that it appeals to me, at the expense of 'ruining it' for the people who currently love the class and it's niche. I've got all sorts of other classes that *do* suit my fancy, after all.
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I think the problem with the bard is that they're always playing Robin to the rest of the group's Batman.
Ask a bard to fight? He dies.
Ask a bard to win the day with spell? He fails.
Ask a bard to fill in for a missing rogue? He fails.
Ask a bard to stand safely in the back and make everyone else into superheroes? He can do that better than anyone.Bards have a niche, but for almost everyone who plays D&D, that niche is an unrewarding niche. Tonto may have been happy to make the Lone Ranger look good while landing a punch or two on some mook henchmen, but in the end, the Lone Ranger got all the credit for riding to the rescue.
I think that for most people playing D&D, we want to be the superhero, not the sidekick.
That's the tragic flaw of the bard. How ironic that the bard is the game's unsung hero...
What I think the bard needs is some way to actually be effective in the game in his own right. Sure, he makes a great mouthpiece for the party, shmoozing the diplomats and bluffing the townsfolk into giving up their firstborn. But that's not enough.
Unfortunately, I don't know what would make them effective without overpowering them. If they can simultaneously be the Superhero and the Sidekick, they would rule the game.
It's a tough call.
Maybe the only answer is letting them remain the unsung hero and we players have to realize that the bard class just isn't for everyone.
That's pretty close to what I was saying Blake. Maybe if their bardic music affected themselves differently (higher bonuses? added effects?) than other people it could make them the sung heroes. I.E. inspire competence on self could give trapfinding for limited amount of time. Or add Find Traps as a 1st level spell to bard list. Make inspire courage a higher bonus to self (+1 extra per 5 levels?) I don't really know, just throwing ideas out there... and yes I know it's way too late for final, just my thoughts as of now. I'm sure either way the bard will still be quite good (even if he's simply the unsung hero) in PFRPG.
I think the problem with the bard is that they're always playing Robin to the rest of the group's Batman.
Ask a bard to fight? He dies.
Ask a bard to win the day with spell? He fails.
Ask a bard to fill in for a missing rogue? He fails.
Ask a bard to stand safely in the back and make everyone else into superheroes? He can do that better than anyone.
What do you think about the new Pathfinder Beta music abilities (e.g. the ones that cause confusion/fear/paralysis/death)?
Maybe the only answer is letting them remain the unsung hero and we players have to realize that the bard class just isn't for everyone.
I don't think I've ever agreed with you more. :)
Basically it's usually up to the bard to sing his/her own praises.
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What do you think about the new Pathfinder Beta music abilities (e.g. the ones that cause confusion/fear/paralysis/death)?
I think that they are too little, too late. The abilities mimic very low-level spells which are available to other casters much earlier. If a bard could mimic the effects of Bane when it was actually useful (ie before 8th level), I'd be a happy camper. That, and the laser strapped to the head...
What do you think about the new Pathfinder Beta music abilities (e.g. the ones that cause confusion/fear/paralysis/death)?I think that they are too little, too late. The abilities mimic very low-level spells which are available to other casters much earlier. If a bard could mimic the effects of Bane when it was actually useful (ie before 8th level), I'd be a happy camper. That, and the laser strapped to the head...
Which abilities are you thinking of? Most of the bardic abilities seem roughly level-appropriate:
- Suggestion at level 6 (3rd level spell)
- Fear at level 8 (only shaken, but enemies-only and no save)
- Confusion at level 8 (4th level spell)
- Fear at level 14 (only frightened, but enemies-only)
- Paralysis at level 14 (like Mass Hold Monster)
- Mass Suggestion at level 18 (6th level spell)
- Death at level 20 (like Finger of Death, but creature is stunned on a successful save)
Mass Suggestion seems like the worst one to me.
How ironic that the bard is the game's unsung hero...
+2
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Which abilities are you thinking of? Most of the bardic abilities seem roughly level-appropriate:
- Suggestion at level 6 (3rd level spell)
- Fear at level 8 (only shaken, but enemies-only and no save)
- Confusion at level 8 (4th level spell)
- Fear at level 14 (only frightened, but enemies-only)
- Paralysis at level 14 (like Mass Hold Monster)
- Mass Suggestion at level 18 (6th level spell)
- Death at level 20 (like Finger of Death, but creature is stunned on a successful save)
Mass Suggestion seems like the worst one to me.
Dirge of Doom is a good example because it's essentially Doom with a radius centred on you. That's an I level spell. True, the radius makes it more useful, but it's not on par with an IV level spell IMO. Especially so since it only has an effective range of 30' and lasts a matter of rounds, rather than medium range and a duration of minutes.
Just IMO, but a doom effect would be much more useful at a level lower than 8th (4th-5th feels about right to me).
The Fascinate or Suggestion abilities are also eclipsed by Hypnotism or Suggestion, the former because it affects more HD of creatures (up to 8 instead of 1 creature, which is a huge advantage at lower levels), the latter because the bard can access the spell 2 levels before the bardic music ability becomes available (3 for wizards).
If they tweaked the timing of the bardic abilities to be more level appropriate, I'd be happy. The other thing I think needs a boost is the way bardic knowledge works. The bonus skill rank in one knowledge skill is nice, but with only 6 skill ranks per level (base, not counting bonus ones), it's difficult to keep up with the demand of keeping all of the Bard's important skills up to date.
Dirge of Doom is a good example because it's essentially Doom with a radius centred on you. That's an I level spell. True, the radius makes it more useful, but it's not on par with an IV level spell IMO. Especially so since it only has an effective range of 30' and lasts a matter of rounds, rather than medium range and a duration of minutes.
Dirge of Doom has no save, as well. Multiple targets + no save is a fairly large difference in my book.
Seconded. I'm with Hogarth here. Bard is potentially very strong in a non-core situation. In 3.5 core, it is a weak class, but beyond that, I've gotten a great deal of joy from some of my more eccentric bard builds.
:)
Is it on better than crushing dispair, which the bard gets a level before? I don't think the no save cancels out the short duration.
Dirge of Doom has no save, as well. Multiple targets + no save is a fairly large difference in my book.
Short duration only matters if you need to do another song or cast a spell. Use this one when you're going to go into fighting mode. Besides - 3 rounds is the majority of most fights.
Is it on better than crushing dispair, which the bard gets a level before? I don't think the no save cancels out the short duration.
Dirge of Doom has no save, as well. Multiple targets + no save is a fairly large difference in my book.
It's better than crushing despair, IMO (because of the "no save" thing). I agree with Majuba that four rounds is basically equivalent to one whole encounter in most games I've played in.
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It's better than crushing despair, IMO (because of the "no save" thing). I agree with Majuba that four rounds is basically equivalent to one whole encounter in most games I've played in.
In short term battles, it does have its advantages, I agree. What about when the battle lasts more than 20 seconds though? Most encounters that I consider it worth the effort of expending a bardic performance on are the bigger ones (lots of goons and/or BBEG types), and they tend to go somewhere around 10+ rounds from my experience.
In that situation, DoD would run out of steam less than half way through the battle, or else eat up a standard action every round to maintain it. Not good economy of action IMO. The one shot, fire and forget cone that last 70 rounds is more efficient IMO (albeit less reliable with Saves and SR) because you are using up fewer resources (standard actions & bardic music or spell slots). Now, if the duration was equal to levels of bard plus concentration, that would be worthwhile Since it would carry me most of an encounter.
Perhaps it all boils down to the situation, personal preference and style of play. YMMV.
EDIT I'm not trying to say the bard class is rubbish or anything. I really enjoy playing one. I am, however, disappointed that the bardic performance and spell list have a lot of duplications, and the spells are usually available at lower levels. It seems redundantly redundant to me and myself.
In that situation, DoD would run out of steam less than half way through the battle, or else eat up a standard action every round to maintain it.
See, this is the biggest reason people *think* the Bard is weak.
MAINTAINING BARDIC MUSIC (USUALLY) DOES NOT REQUIRE AN ACTION!
Ahem.
[Sorry - I really hope the PRPG Final has a line in all caps, bolded, underlined and italics in a larger font pointing this out - even though it's been true since 3.0!]
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See, this is the biggest reason people *think* the Bard is weak.MAINTAINING BARDIC MUSIC (USUALLY) DOES NOT REQUIRE AN ACTION!
Ahem.
[Sorry - I really hope the PRPG Final has a line in all caps, bolded, underlined and italics in a larger font pointing this out - even though it's been true since 3.0!]
This is accurate.
There are a number of abilities of the Bard (in 3.5) that require Concentration to maintain, which is a Standard Action each round. These include Fascinate, Inspire Competence, and Song of Freedom (which requires 1 minute of concentration in and of itself). The others, including the most popular Inspire Courage, do not require an action. Unfortunately, while using them the Bard cannot cast spells or activate magic items by spell completion, spell trigger, or command word.
The same performances require concentration in PRPG Beta, along with adding the Soothing Performance to those requiring concentration, akin to the Song of Freedom.
Dirge of Doom does not require concentration.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
There are, however, feats that allow you to cast or otherwise act while performing, and these are a tremendous and important power boost for Bards.
[That should have been core.]
EDIT I'm not trying to say the bard class is rubbish or anything. I really enjoy playing one. I am, however, disappointed that the bardic performance and spell list have a lot of duplications, and the spells are usually available at lower levels. It seems redundantly redundant to me and myself.
Careful now!
You don't want the Department of Superfluous Reduncancy Department to fine you for that redundant redundancy.
See, this is the biggest reason people *think* the Bard is weak.MAINTAINING BARDIC MUSIC (USUALLY) DOES NOT REQUIRE AN ACTION!
Ahem.
[Sorry - I really hope the PRPG Final has a line in all caps, bolded, underlined and italics in a larger font pointing this out - even though it's been true since 3.0!]
This is accurate.
There are a number of abilities of the Bard (in 3.5) that require Concentration to maintain, which is a Standard Action each round. These include Fascinate, Inspire Competence, and Song of Freedom (which requires 1 minute of concentration in and of itself). The others, including the most popular Inspire Courage, do not require an action. Unfortunately, while using them the Bard cannot cast spells or activate magic items by spell completion, spell trigger, or command word.
The same performances require concentration in PRPG Beta, along with adding the Soothing Performance to those requiring concentration, akin to the Song of Freedom.
Dirge of Doom does not require concentration.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Do you have a source that says they cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion, spell trigger, or command word?