Well,
I say non-humor, but I'm sure there'll be lots of funny stuff. Just not the same kind as in the humor thread I hope. :)
I've been looking over the preview, and I like the fact there are more explanations this time. Helps to understand the character build a little better.
I've got mixed feelings about the familiar, I really liked that they got rid of familiars for sorcerers, but, since it's only one of the bloodlines, I guess it's ok. Although, I do have to agree with one of the questions over on the humor thread, where does she hide that lizard? :)
I do like the fact they kept the bloodlines, I really liked that concept. Finally sorcerers are not just wizards with funky rules. I don't suppose any of the powers that be could possibly list the different bloodlines that made it into the final version? Not details, just the lines themselves (IE: Draconic, Undead, Fey, Arcane, etc).
It'll be interesting to see if the bloodlines keep their damage dealing specials abilities. I'm assuming the Arcane bloodline get's the familiar in place of say, a ray.
It's nice to see a Perception +11 out there for a sorcerer. It always bothered me in 3.5 that spot/listen were cross-class skills for most classes (I always house ruled that they were class skills for every class).
For once, a caster class looks cleaner and simpler than a melee class. LOL That's a new one on me.
EDIT: Reposted from the thread I started, for some reason, this thread didn't show up despite reloading several times and searching, which is why I started a new one. When I clicked the provided link, it showed an empty thread, until I posted this, then it suddenly showed that the thread had been created an hour ago?!?!?! Is there something wrong with the message board, or does it just not like me?
EDIT REDUX: Also, a little bird told me that all the bloodlines in Beta are in the final, plus the mentioned Arcane. So that's good. No official word on what changes they underwent of course, if any.
EDIT REDUX: Also, a little bird told me that all the bloodlines in Beta are in the final, plus the mentioned Arcane. So that's good. No official word on what changes they underwent of course, if any.
Well there'll be the bloodline arcana. Aberrant- confusion/trancmutation maybe? We know arcane and destined. Draconic? Elemental is easy. Demonic? It could be just chaotic evil spells. But I think it'll be less of well-defined spell group, more flavour related. Like maetamagic spells. The same could stand for Elemental actually.
Any thoughts?
Well, I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. I was hoping for a little less powers/abilities, and spell level parity with wizards. The metamagic rods are still there (very broken in my opinion). Fly skill is still there, *sigh*. Arcane bloodline & bloodline arcana...doesn't that sound an awful lot similar for two different concepts? Can't possibly understand why they nerfed dispel magic. Not too sure the powers will be balanced after reading "the destined bloodline grants the sorcerer a luck bonus on saving throws for 1 round whenever she casts a spell with a range of personal", ugh. Arcane apotheosis seems too strong, but I'm not a good judge one that one, these aren't the levels I like to play.
Changes to ice storm is nice, hope to see more like it. Staff recharge sounds great, I'm just wondering if it'll make staffs a must. Metamagic adept and the fix to quicken spell are very welcome.
It seems like the months of playtesting have indeed born some fruit. Nearly all of the changes listed here are definate improvements over the old core rules, and even the beta. I'm glad to see that the d6 HD and the bloodline mechanics for the Sorcerer survived the beta and will be included in the final version as well. (At this point, Sorcerer seems flexible and flavorful enough that I don't see a reason to put up with the Wizard's non-spontaneous preparation crap anymore.*) Perhaps the best news of all, however, is that Sorcerers (and theoretically bards) can actually use Quicken Spell effectively. Ridding spontaneous casters of that handicap has been a long time coming.
The changes to spells are also a welcome sight. I find the changes to dispel magic in particuar to be quite elegant, as it dramatically reduces all the repetitive dice-rolling while also granting you the ability to target a particular spell that is causing you problems. Mirror Image is also nicely cleaned up and seems easy to adjudicate, and the limitations on staves seem interesting (although I sortof hope their cost is adjusted slightly to account for the lower number of charges.)
-C. Robert Brown
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Anyone feels mirror image is overpowered for a level 1 spell? The only way to get rid of it now is to make x attacks (and hit) or dispel it. And once its gone the wizard will simply recast it since its that good.
I would now definately choose a mirror image over displacement, and even over invisibility. There is almost no weak element to this 2nd level spell.
Staff recharge sounds great, I'm just wondering if it'll make staffs a must.
From my experience it won't make staffs a must, but it actually makes them useful. Before they were terribly expensive for a non rechargeable item.
It appears that the sorcerer has gained knowledge:local and perception as a class skill.
Here's how I came to that conclusion:
Constitution bonus is +1, yet the character has 20 hit points on top of her hit dice. Favored class has been taken to hit points.
Skill ranks are (2+int+human) * 10 = 30
They are spent like this:
Bluff: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 ability modifier. (6 ranks used)
Climb: 3 ranks - 1 ability modifier (9 ranks used)
Fly: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 ability modifier. (15 ranks used)
Knowledge(local): 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (21 ranks used)
Perception: 3 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 ability modifier + 2 alertness. (24 ranks used)
Spellcraft: 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (30 ranks used)
Edit:
It's nice to see a Perception +11 out there for a sorcerer. It always bothered me in 3.5 that spot/listen were cross-class skills for most classes (I always house ruled that they were class skills for every class).
You know what's even nicer? If I'm right, Seoni could even have +15 perception had she maxed that skill.
Anyone feels mirror image is overpowered for a level 1 spell? The only way to get rid of it now is to make x attacks (and hit) or dispel it. And once its gone the wizard will simply recast it since its that good.
I would now definately choose a mirror image over displacement, and even over invisibility. There is almost no weak element to this 2nd level spell.
Well, there are a couple of things to consider.
First of all, Mirror Image is a 2nd-level spell (not a 1st-level), so it has to be roughly 'on par' of spells like Blur and Invisibility (which, IMHO, it does).
Second, what goes for the goose, goes for the gander. Ever tried to heal a character which has 8-9 images around him? What a funny way to waste a good spell...
One of my Beta groups had a Bard which constantly was buffed with Mirror Image, and a Cleric with the Travel Domain; you cannot possibly imagine how many times the Bard, injured by area effects or sheer luck of the enemies, was toe-to-toe with Death itself and the Cleric came near him to teleport away with Dimensional Hop... only to touch an image and -poof- away all alone...
Just my 2c.
It appears that the sorcerer has gained knowledge:local and perception as a class skill.
Here's how I came to that conclusion:
Constitution bonus is +1, yet the character has 20 hit points on top of her hit dice. Favored class has been taken to hit points.
Skill ranks are (2+int+human) * 10 = 30
They are spent like this:
Bluff: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 ability modifier. (6 ranks used)
Climb: 3 ranks - 1 ability modifier (9 ranks used)
Fly: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 ability modifier. (15 ranks used)
Knowledge(local): 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (21 ranks used)
Perception: 3 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 ability modifier + 2 alertness. (24 ranks used)
Spellcraft: 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (30 ranks used)
Well I think her bloodline lets her choose any knowledge as a class skill, so she probably chose local. Hadn't copped on perception, it probably has become a class skill.
Please tell me a fair number of the bloodlines are along the lines of Arcane, Destiny etc and not unusal heritages. I don't like the idea of my sorcerer's reaching a certain level and going through a random growth spurt.
I agree stronly on the staff recharge debate though, I never liked that using equipment so many times made it worthless. A fighter's sword never blunts unless sundered, so I like that the same applies to staffs.
So my fears are now confirmed.
Spellcasters are awesome, get cool options and toys in Pathfinder.
Fighters get to swing a sword and basically suck.
Oh well, I had hopes that the promises of a 'fixed' 3.5 would be true...not just a pipe dream.
Good day Paizo, I wish you luck.
You'll need it if you're assuming that the vocal minority here on your own site are going to keep you afloat. Somehow I don't see those 10,000 downloads of the free playtest being repeated when you ask us to pay money for lukewarm 3.x with all the same problems as before.
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Gotta say I feel sorry for Jason. He gets his head bitten off for the fighter preview for not showing enough how the fighter has been improved. Then for the new one when he does show off the stuff (because people asked him to) people jump on that as proof about how casters have been boosted and fighters have been made useless.
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So my fears are now confirmed.
Spellcasters are awesome, get cool options and toys in Pathfinder.
Fighters get to swing a sword and basically suck.
Oh well, I had hopes that the promises of a 'fixed' 3.5 would be true...not just a pipe dream.
Good day Paizo, I wish you luck.
You'll need it if you're assuming that the vocal minority here on your own site are going to keep you afloat. Somehow I don't see those 10,000 downloads of the free playtest being repeated when you ask us to pay money for lukewarm 3.x with all the same problems as before.
Bitter much ?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yes because being able to now move at full speed, charging is now worth it, various maneuvers in combat, able to avoid being grappled (CMD 34) able to finally catch Seonic (her CMD is only 20) and keep her from casting, (assuming casting while grappled is something like opponent's CMB + spell level, Dim Dooring away is going to be a 60/40 shot) is so limited *rolls eyes*
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Greater dispel magic still allows you to strip off multiple spells, but it too only requires a single check. It dispels one spell per four caster levels, taking out the spells with the highest caster level that it can effect. I should note that you can still use either one of these spells to target a specific spell to end that effect, allowing you to try and knock out the enemy's fly or stoneskin when it really counts.
Now this is a great change that reduces the headache from using Dispel-spells in combat! :) Good work, Jason!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Second, what goes for the goose, goes for the gander. Ever tried to heal a character which has 8-9 images around him? What a funny way to waste a good spell...
Close your eyes and pray. That way you'd have a 50/50 chance and if you miss the cure spell is still 'on your hands'.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
Fighter to cleric of Callistria "You took blind fighting?"
"Hey, you'd be amazed the times you're fumbling around in the dark with touch spells."
Seoni (her CMD is only 20)
This is actually interesting/questioning to me. Her CMB is +4, her Touch AC is 15 (2 dex, 2 def (both already mentioned as included), and +1 Dodge). Straight adding would give her a 19 CMD. Is there another +1 out there? Is strength only included if positive?
Very interesting (if not on the very very off chance an error).
So my fears are now confirmed.
Spellcasters are awesome, get cool options and toys in Pathfinder.
Fighters get to swing a sword and basically suck.
Oh well, I had hopes that the promises of a 'fixed' 3.5 would be true...not just a pipe dream.
Good day Paizo, I wish you luck.
You'll need it if you're assuming that the vocal minority here on your own site are going to keep you afloat. Somehow I don't see those 10,000 downloads of the free playtest being repeated when you ask us to pay money for lukewarm 3.x with all the same problems as before.
Why bother? And it was way more than 10,000 downloads. Also, given that the rpg is the best selling item in their store, 2-3 months before its even available, tells me they'll be okay.
So again, why bother? Why attack? You don't like the game, don't play. You want perfect balance, play 4e [not a disparagment, their classes do seem balanced] and use the various classes that are available, all 3.5 core is there except monk at the moment, or just play 3.5, if you think its less broken. Or another game, one less number intensive, and thus less abusible by min/maxers.
To be honest there isn't that much discrepency at the sweet spot in D&D, casters and warriors can hold there own, and I find warriors get higher kill counts, often much higher at these levels.
Its not like they made it worse. So by logic, I don't think your greiveance warrants that level of attack. You can be upset, but that seems disproportionate, which tells me you just wanted to attack.
Which means your not even a lost sale. So who cares, have fun with whatever you do decide to play.
Peace.
So my fears are now confirmed.
Spellcasters are awesome, get cool options and toys in Pathfinder.
Fighters get to swing a sword and basically suck.
Oh well, I had hopes that the promises of a 'fixed' 3.5 would be true...not just a pipe dream.
Good day Paizo, I wish you luck.
You'll need it if you're assuming that the vocal minority here on your own site are going to keep you afloat. Somehow I don't see those 10,000 downloads of the free playtest being repeated when you ask us to pay money for lukewarm 3.x with all the same problems as before.
You are entitled to your opinion- I have never found fighters to suck so didnt look for much fixing in that department. Everyone I play with will buy a copy of the rules as an advance on the game system we like. We all bought 3.5 when it came out & it was a lesser change from 3.0 than this is from 3.5.
The bits we dislike we will houserule away, the bits we want that are not included we will houserule in as we have done for every edition of 'the worlds most popular roleplaying game'.I can't wait.
sadly while I do enjoy the previews they leave more questions unanswered than they answer.
On the upside Mr Whalley I believe it has been suggested that a book like Unearthed Arcana- ie non standard rules will follow in due course so perhaps the fighter tricks will be in there. I too would love to see some tricks of the non magical kind for the fighter, apart from bigger AC and hit & damage, maybe the feats will provide these........as I say more questions unanswered than answered.
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Anyone feels mirror image is overpowered for a level 1 spell? The only way to get rid of it now is to make x attacks (and hit) or dispel it. And once its gone the wizard will simply recast it since its that good.
I would now definately choose a mirror image over displacement, and even over invisibility. There is almost no weak element to this 2nd level spell.
Except that an attack that misses you by 5 or more *also* dispels a figment.
I like it, but I would have preferred a "simpler" version, because it's kind of inelegant to roll an extra 1DX to see if it hits you or a figment (and you need to re-roll if you roll max on the die and there are an odd number of figments). Maybe simply just "If the attack roll is 15-20, it hits you -- otherwise the attack dispels a figment" or even "If the attack roll is equal to or under 10 + number of figments, it misses you and dispels a figment instead."
I also wish they got rid of the percentile rolls in the game...
Only thing missing (pun intended) from the new and improved mirror image is if you can cleave through them.
swing *pop* cleave *pop* cleave *pop* cleave *thunk* Found him!
Love it!
Therefore mirror image is just a stupid spell, it cannot give someone more than 50% miss-chance. Since its better to close your eyes and swing than to keep them open and aim.
Still I don't like the fact that the spell is not affected by area magic and that it can even cancel touch spells (I know this was already implemented in Beta). This is more powerful against offensive spells than defensive spells obviously.
I don't like the dispel magic change as well, in our last campaign a wizard dispelled 10 or so spells with his dispel magic. He threw incredibly high, call it luck or destiny, nevertheless this is now impossible. Dispelling will be more difficult now. These changes make casters MORE powerful and the rest, well stay the same.
I will probably keep the old (3.5) versions of those spells, I can't like everything from Pathfinder. Furthermore there is little exciting to this character. Although I'm a great fan of pathfinder, these previews does not make me particularly hot or happy! How about the bard class stats!? I'm looking forward to those!! :-D
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Therefore mirror image is just a stupid spell, it cannot give someone more than 50% miss-chance. Since its better to close your eyes and swing than to keep them open and aim.
Without looking it up. If you close your eyes, aren't they assumed to be closed until your next action, and wouldn't that mean you count as blind until your next action...
Blinded
The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Don't fancy losing my Dex bonus and -2 to my AC for a round....Especially if there's a rogue about to sneak attack!
Don't fancy losing my Dex bonus and -2 to my AC for a round....Especially if there's a rogue about to sneak attack!
Unless you are the rogue or you have a AC of 33 because of your awesome magical super duper full plate armor and shield, if you are none of that you are F*****. :P
Anyone feels mirror image is overpowered for a level 1 spell? The only way to get rid of it now is to make x attacks (and hit) or dispel it. And once its gone the wizard will simply recast it since its that good.
I would now definately choose a mirror image over displacement, and even over invisibility. There is almost no weak element to this 2nd level spell.
Except that an attack that misses you by 5 or more *also* dispels a figment.
I like it, but I would have preferred a "simpler" version, because it's kind of inelegant to roll an extra 1DX to see if it hits you or a figment (and you need to re-roll if you roll max on the die and there are an odd number of figments). Maybe simply just "If the attack roll is 15-20, it hits you -- otherwise the attack dispels a figment" or even "If the attack roll is equal to or under 10 + number of figments, it misses you and dispels a figment instead."
I also wish they got rid of the percentile rolls in the game...
I've been playing with this version (it doesn't seem changed from the Beta, so far as I can tell), and it generally goes "poof" much faster than the old version. The exception is no more magic missile'ing every image to see which is real.. instead you simply hit him with it!
The major difference is that "miss by 5, boom" - that increases the number of hits dramatically (no, not 25%, roughly 50-150%, depending on what you need to hit). That also reduces the total number of "did I hit him" rolls.
You can't base the mechanic off the attack roll, because you might *need* that high on the die to be hitting in the first place, so that would make every roll that was high to hit automatically strike, pretty much annulling the spell entirely.
Well, they kept Spellcraft (ugh) and didn't reinstate Concentration. Looks like I'll have to house rule the skill list right out of the gate. *sigh*
After all the people arguing against the Spellcraft replacement of Concentration, I am very disappointed to see that it stuck around. Not surprised, because Jason seemed to have a serious mad-on for it, but disappointed nonetheless. Wizards are now better at casting in melee than clerics, who are more likely to need to.
I am guessing that it us 4 (CMB) + 1 (dodge) +15 (old rules was CMB +15 as target).Seoni (her CMD is only 20)This is actually interesting/questioning to me. Her CMB is +4, her Touch AC is 15 (2 dex, 2 def (both already mentioned as included), and +1 Dodge). Straight adding would give her a 19 CMD. Is there another +1 out there? Is strength only included if positive?
Last week's preview of Valeros already established that the base is +10, and the modifier's include dex and deflection (a non-exclusive list).
She has the Spellcraft skill, but that doesn't mean it is being used for "concentration" checks. From the PFRPG FAQWell, they kept Spellcraft (ugh) and didn't reinstate Concentration. Looks like I'll have to house rule the skill list right out of the gate. *sigh*
After all the people arguing against the Spellcraft replacement of Concentration, I am very disappointed to see that it stuck around. Not surprised, because Jason seemed to have a serious mad-on for it, but disappointed nonetheless. Wizards are now better at casting in melee than clerics, who are more likely to need to.
"Spellcasters do not have to spend a bunch of ranks on Concentration (or any other skill) to be able to cast their spells in the middle of combat."
It appears that the sorcerer has gained perception as a class skill.
Here's how I came to that conclusion:
Favored class has been taken to hit points.Skill ranks are (2+int+human) * 10 = 30
They are spent like this:
Bluff: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 ability modifier. (6 ranks used)
Climb: 3 ranks - 1 ability modifier (9 ranks used)
Fly: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 ability modifier. (15 ranks used)
Knowledge(local): 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (21 ranks used)
Perception: 3 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 ability modifier + 2 alertness. (24 ranks used)
Spellcraft: 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (30 ranks used)
I think those 30 points went like this:
Bluff: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 ability modifier. (6 ranks used)Climb: 0 ranks - 1 ability modifier + 3 Familiar bonus (6 ranks used)
Fly: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 ability modifier. (12 ranks used)
Knowledge(local): 6 ranks + 3 class skill (bloodline). (18 ranks used)
Perception: 6 ranks + 3 ability modifier + 2 alertness. (24 ranks used)
Spellcraft: 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (30 ranks used)
I like it!
Seoni just made me want to play a sorcerer! :D
Some points I've just noted...
-No more Eschew materials for every sorcerer. Maybe it has been included in every bloodline bonus feat list? Jason, could you answer about this? Anyway, I agree.
-Seoni hasn't the previously "must-have-stuff" knowledge(arcana). Could it mean that Spellcraft now is the omnicomprehensive magical skill?
-No concentration! I STRONGLY agree! How many skill points have you got to waste on other must have stuff, dudes?
-Very good peeks on blodlines. By now, they seem flavourful and balanced. I love them.
-Staves! I love them! I hope in similar love for wands...
-VERY GOOD FIXES to quicken spell, mirror images and dispel. I don't care if dispel is weaker than before... I remember the beta "3 spells cap" per character... so it's fine and streamlines magical combat very much.
-Fly. I like it. I think it will become for flying casters what Ride is for combatants. I foresee an exciting flying combat system.
Sorcerer is now a definitely awesome class. Thank you Jason. You've made it what it's supposed to be without overshadowing everything else around.
Not too sure the powers will be balanced after reading "the destined bloodline grants the sorcerer a luck bonus on saving throws for 1 round whenever she casts a spell with a range of personal", ugh.
I have to admit that a bonus to saving throws for 1 round doesn't sound as good as +1 DC for metamagicked spells, but that's just my opinion.
Frankly, I think the PF Beta sorcerer was pretty good as-is, so I'm glad that there aren't too many sweeping changes (that I can see).
Hmmm...Seoni doesn't have any diamond dust listed on her character sheet. Does that mean that casting Stoneskin is free now?
Love it!Only thing missing (pun intended) from the new and improved mirror image is if you can cleave through them.
swing *pop* cleave *pop* cleave *pop* cleave *thunk* Found him!
If Cleave is as in the Beta, you would be able to take out two, so long as you hit the first one. Great cleave (which must be what you mean now that I think about it) you could keep going as long as you kept hitting w/in 5 of the target AC.
Hmmm...Seoni doesn't have any diamond dust listed on her character sheet. Does that mean that casting Stoneskin is free now?
Maybe now every spell has simply a money value for they material components...boh...
I think those 30 points went like this:
Bluff: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 ability modifier. (6 ranks used)
Climb: 0 ranks - 1 ability modifier + 3 Familiar bonus (6 ranks used)
Fly: 6 ranks + 3 class skill + 2 ability modifier. (12 ranks used)
Knowledge(local): 6 ranks + 3 class skill (bloodline). (18 ranks used)
Perception: 6 ranks + 3 ability modifier + 2 alertness. (24 ranks used)
Spellcraft: 6 ranks + 3 class skill. (30 ranks used)
That... actually seems more likely, yeah. What sorcerer would put skill points into climb? :)
Bitter much ?So my fears are now confirmed.
Spellcasters are awesome, get cool options and toys in Pathfinder.
Fighters get to swing a sword and basically suck.
Oh well, I had hopes that the promises of a 'fixed' 3.5 would be true...not just a pipe dream.
Good day Paizo, I wish you luck.
You'll need it if you're assuming that the vocal minority here on your own site are going to keep you afloat. Somehow I don't see those 10,000 downloads of the free playtest being repeated when you ask us to pay money for lukewarm 3.x with all the same problems as before.
Read the dang books, look at the beta fighter and see how good they have it. Fighters are stronger then ever, by a good deal. If you can't see that you didn't try it out for yourself. If you didn't try it, well then you have no idea how good they are and no one explaining it will make a difference. A feat a level, armor skill, more damage with weapons categorys, and DR at top end levels. Fighters are strong, and remain so through out.
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The bloodline concept for the sorcerer has always been a solid idea and a great innovation IMO. I've personally enjoyed playing an air elemental bloodline character and found the options it presents to be great, so good show! I would never have played a 3.x sorcerer, but a straight up PFRPG (ie no splatbooks, just Beta) one is tonnes of fun!
I like the blurb about the staves. Do you need to have the spells on your class spell list to use them, or can any spellcaster expend charges from and recharge staves? Inquiring Bards wanna know!
I give this preview 2 Merks up. Merk, Merrrrrk!
I like the blurb about the staves. Do you need to have the spells on your class spell list to use them, or can any spellcaster expend charges from and recharge staves? Inquiring Bards wanna know!
I doubt that the staff rules have changed much from the Pathfinder Beta staff rules. At any rate, presumably they're still spell trigger items.