Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We kept the goblins and giant stuff in the dwarf traits because that's how it's pretty much always been, and we're fine with that.
The elves are taller because a lot of people run them that way anyway and because we think it looks cooler and gives Pathfinder some distinctiveness (we took a similar approach to our gnomes).
If you'd prefer to make elves shorter or assign the dwarf's racial advantages to other creatures you're well within you right as GM to do so. It changes almost nothing, rules wise, so there's very little impact on the game itself or on a campaign.
How do you know that it was deliberately changed?
Because I abducted someone from Paizo and subjected him to inhuman tortures to torment the information out of him.
Either that or they said so. I forget which.
Why does it it make more sense?
Why should humans should be average?
Why should the elf and half-elf be taller than average?
Elves have always been tall and graceful. D&D made them shorter, but it wasn't consistent even there - FR had tall elves.
Humans should be average because that's their whole schtick: They're the man in the middle. The yardstick everyone is measured against.
If elves and half-elves are taller than humans, we have an even spread:
Half-orc -> Elf -> Half-Elf -> Human <- Dwarf <- Gnome <- Halfling.
Smack in the middle.
How do you know that it was deliberately changed?Because I abducted someone from Paizo and subjected him to inhuman tortures to torment the information out of him.
Either that or they said so. I forget which.
That plus the random height charts say so.
Funny thing is, every elf in my game has rolled low height (even the half-Ulfen/half-Elven character), and most of the humans have rolled rather high, so I've actually got the D&D norm going on.
Where does it say that I like the fact that favoured classes have changed?Nowhere; I just thought that it’s a bit odd that you’re arguing about giving the players a free, one-time choice for that small bonus, while it seems that the favoured class system is either gone or favoured classes are freely picked by each player (e.g. wizard or bard for your dwarven character). Essentially it means that you can always add that +1 HP or +1 skill point per level to any race/class combination, which is a totally different thing. Not only is it about continuous bonuses, but I also see it being easily abused.
Remember, you'd only still get one favored class, so if you multiclass you won't get the HP or skill bonus for the second class (unless half-elves and maybe humans get two favored classes) - or if you just take a prestige class even.
I'm referring to your "Essentially it means that you can always add that +1 HP or +1 skill point per level to any race/class combination" remark.
Merisiel ask more for every shot... and Seoni is always ready to show more skin than Merisiel :PBecause she's part elf, dummy.
There is good reason that the iconic Marketing Babe for Pathfinder is the Human Sorceress Seoni and not the Elven Rogue Merisiel.
Wizards of the Coast tried to go the Elf route with the Elven wizard Mialee, and that didn't work out so well.
** spoiler omitted **
Seoni is also in a class with a focus on charisma, while Merisiel is not. So clearly she is more outgoing.
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Kinda preferred the old artwork myself but meh, that's just my opinion (and the mrs.).
In any case, really excited for this final product to hit so we can start wearing that book out! I won't be happy until the edges are worn thin.
EDIT: Though let me make it known, I think the gnome looks hot and I am very confused by that fact O_o
~wonderful racial, conservative stuff~
Which makes me very happy...as does the new art. And yeah, I had fun with my (accurate) summarization.
Something I noticed is that it appears that each race gets an entire page write up. I like that. (Edit: Except Humans who get three pages.)
How do you know humans get 3 pages?
I'll give on trolls if you give on goblins....
Trolls: How about Fey type with giant subtype? I'd go that way but that's just me.
Trolls have fey fluff AND crunch (supernatural regeneration, scent and darkvision) that gives them a Spawned-from-shadows-in-nature vibe.
Goblins (specialy Golarion ones) have the fluff but so do gnomes, elves and even dwarves. Not quite there yet...
Sprikle a bit of magic crunch (confusion abilities)on the base goblin and make a variant "parent-type" fey race. But you might be walking on the Gremlins (fey family) sideline, maybe make them related to goblins and bingo, your there!
Also note that the Fey type could also get "Subed" so the Troll could end up as a Monstrous Humanoid (Giant, Fey) or even just Humanoid (Giant, Fey), who knows? (well, everybody knows who knows but we all know that they're also the ones who know when we'll know what we can know before everybody knows ... I need a brake now.)
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If you look at the table of contents you'll see each race gets a page, except humans. The dwarf write up, if you read race page before it describing racial breakdowns, lists everything it a racial section is suppose to cover. My speculation is that they will get three pages cause humans are the last in the racial section and there are three pages until the next chapter starts. If there is something else there then they would have listed what it was in the table of contents, at least I hope they would.
If you look at the table of contents you'll see each race gets a page, except humans. The dwarf write up, if you read race page before it describing racial breakdowns, lists everything it a racial section is suppose to cover. My speculation is that they will get three pages cause humans are the last in the racial section and there are three pages until the next chapter starts. If there is something else there then they would have listed what it was in the table of contents, at least I hope they would.
Humans get one page too, there is chapter art and some mystery page, probably more art between every chapter, which are the two spare pages before the start of every chapter on the ToC. This can be all but verified by a James Jacobs comment, a twitpic and deductive reasoning.
I find it hard to believe they would waste two pages for art. No other PF product has art between chapters, plus Jason's comments indicates they jammed just about every page they could with information. I could see a chart or charts, but not sure what.
I would guess a page worth of summary charts, races, bonus's, vision, etc. Add in a piece of artwork showing all the races interacting in a town square or tavern or something, and you've got the extra two pages accounted for.
Also note that the Fey type could also get "Subed" so the Troll could end up as a Monstrous Humanoid (Giant, Fey) or even just Humanoid (Giant, Fey), who knows? (well, everybody knows who knows but we all know that they're also the ones who know when we'll know what we can know before everybody knows ... I need a brake now.)
I like this.
Actually, I think this is how I'd like to treat Gnomes, whether or not such change makes it into the final...Though it really seems to make more sense with the extra Fey "coloration" Gnomes have seen in PRPG.
(I'd also ditch the Gnomish language and have them speak Sylvan along with every other Fey. Sure, they speak Gnomish AND Sylvan currently, but I don't see why Gnomes should have an additional 'private' racial language when other Fey just speak Sylvan.)
I find it hard to believe they would waste two pages for art (or even one). No other PF product has art between chapters, plus Jason's comments indicates they jammed just about every page they could with information. I could see a chart or charts, but not sure what.
Uh... double-page spread art?
And James pretty much *did* verify that it will be art...I don't think Paizo's ever done any project on this scale before, and I would feel it's a case on pinching pennies to follow the same art limitations of smaller products with a tome as big as this one.
I like this.
Actually, I think this is how I'd like to treat Gnomes, whether or not such change makes it into the final...
Though it really seems to make more sense with the extra Fey "coloration" Gnomes have seen in PRPG.
(I'd also ditch the Gnomish language and have them speak Sylvan along with every other Fey. Sure, they speak Gnomish AND Sylvan currently, but I don't see why Gnomes should have an additional 'private' racial language when other Fey just speak Sylvan.)
Problem with that is Elves, who are as much Fey as Gnomes (if not more so). You'd get rid of Elvish by that logic, and then how would Precious have been kept secret so long with 'ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL' stamped in common on the inside of it?!?!?!
You might as well stamp 'MADE IN PAKISWANA' on the inside of the One Ring as well!!!
HERETIC! BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!
:)
And I did not say so -- read that part carefully again. The word "it" (in the latter sentence) refers to giants, not orcs in any way -- I only mentioned the grudge versus orcs as a classic dwarven trait (and elsewhere I also mentioned this hatred being a "leftover" from Tolkien's works). .
my bad. :-)
(BTW, I'm from Scandinavia, too).
cool...that mighty country scandinavia, LOL.
I do agree with you on the dodge bonus.To be honest, the dwarves get all the good stuff, don't they.
Hafling get +1 bonus to saves. Dwarves get +2
Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against the giant type, so does dwarves
Orks get darkvision, so does dwarves
Dwarves get the 20 ft move but their speed is never modified by armor or
encumbrance.
Hearty, Stability, Hatred, etc. etc.
I really hope they have boosted half-elves, gnomes and haflings. ...especially the gnome.
And I wanna get a peek the new Paladin and the Bard.
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Creative Director
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I find it hard to believe they would waste two pages for art (or even one). No other PF product has art between chapters, plus Jason's comments indicates they jammed just about every page they could with information. I could see a chart or charts, but not sure what.
I don't find that hard to believe at all. I don't consider fancy art a "waste" of pages. And on top of that, no other PF product is a 576 page hardcover core rulebook.
This is an entirely new beast.
Elves have always been tall and graceful. D&D made them shorter, but it wasn't consistent even there - FR had tall elves.
And by "always" you mean "since Tolkien", I take it? ;) I can't find a single reference of elves being tall anywhere pre-Tolkien.
I find it hard to believe they would waste two pages for art (or even one). No other PF product has art between chapters, plus Jason's comments indicates they jammed just about every page they could with information. I could see a chart or charts, but not sure what.I don't find that hard to believe at all. I don't consider fancy art a "waste" of pages. And on top of that, no other PF product is a 576 page hardcover core rulebook.
This is an entirely new beast.
A) I totally agree, I'm a big art fanatic, I noticed its a load of WAR and Steve Prescott, so I love your taste. Win, Win, WIN!
B) Booya deductive reasoning! *dance of sweet salty victory*
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I find it hard to believe they would waste two pages for art (or even one). No other PF product has art between chapters, plus Jason's comments indicates they jammed just about every page they could with information. I could see a chart or charts, but not sure what.I don't find that hard to believe at all. I don't consider fancy art a "waste" of pages. And on top of that, no other PF product is a 576 page hardcover core rulebook.
This is an entirely new beast.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Seriously, I'm all for being overloaded with art in this book. This is a BRAND NEW SETTING and Paizo has to set the mood for us to get involved in the setting. Imagination will be a part but art will really give a great feel of how it all goes down.
More arts please :D
We kept the goblins and giant stuff in the dwarf traits because that's how it's pretty much always been, and we're fine with that.
The elves are taller because a lot of people run them that way anyway and because we think it looks cooler and gives Pathfinder some distinctiveness (we took a similar approach to our gnomes).
If you'd prefer to make elves shorter or assign the dwarf's racial advantages to other creatures you're well within you right as GM to do so. It changes almost nothing, rules wise, so there's very little impact on the game itself or on a campaign.
The time stamp on this is 2:17am, I love you guys but have to ask, when do you sleep?
If people look very closely at some of the pictures we posted online when we sent this book to press, some mysteries about the chapter openers would likely become less mysterious.
Just saying.
Yes I seen that a while back, seems like nice full page chapter header art
If people look very closely at some of the pictures we posted online when we sent this book to press, some mysteries about the chapter openers would likely become less mysterious.
Just saying.
Already have big E, hence my beleif in the art pieces, its all WAR and Prescott Pathfinder covers, which I love. Combat is black-dragonorriffic. Thats one of the two spare pages. So I'm guessing the other page, the one 'spare' at the end of every is art too, you guys have basically said as much. Is it the full un adorned image from the start of its corresponding chapter, or a splash of new pretty?
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If you'd prefer to make elves shorter or assign the dwarf's racial advantages to other creatures you're well within you right as GM to do so. It changes almost nothing, rules wise, so there's very little impact on the game itself or on a campaign.
Yeah, my "problems" with the PF dwarf are only minor complaints (and I can easily houserule them if I want to); despite my "ranting", I still think that it *IS* the best version of the race we've seen so far! :)
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If people look very closely at some of the pictures we posted online when we sent this book to press, some mysteries about the chapter openers would likely become less mysterious.
Just saying.
You know, I asked James (I think?) about those wonderful pages shown on Twitter, but he hasn't responded... ;)
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Where does it say that I like the fact that favoured classes have changed?Nowhere; I just thought that it’s a bit odd that you’re arguing about giving the players a free, one-time choice for that small bonus, while it seems that the favoured class system is either gone or favoured classes are freely picked by each player (e.g. wizard or bard for your dwarven character). Essentially it means that you can always add that +1 HP or +1 skill point per level to any race/class combination, which is a totally different thing. Not only is it about continuous bonuses, but I also see it being easily abused.Remember, you'd only still get one favored class, so if you multiclass you won't get the HP or skill bonus for the second class (unless half-elves and maybe humans get two favored classes) - or if you just take a prestige class even.
I'm referring to your "Essentially it means that you can always add that +1 HP or +1 skill point per level to any race/class combination" remark.
Very true, and I thought it was a nice benefit to encourage singleclassing in Beta (we've had major problems with multiclassed 3E PCs in my group... everyone seems to dip into three or more classes and we all know how it ends up in many cases). My statement assumed that most players probably stick to one or two classes/prestige classes now that it's more beneficial to do so (due to favoured class bonuses and more powerful and varied abilities).
However, my original point was that it also enhanced the racial "stereotypes", i.e. that dwarven fighters and clerics are mechanically a bit better than dwarven rogues or wizards -- without "invalidating" the latter choices, if you want to play them. Then again, it could be argued that getting to pick your favored class probably results in more varied race/class combinations chosen by the players, e.g. dwarven paladins, halfling fighters and elven clerics (instead of the "optimal" choices, i.e. human paladins, human fighters and dwarven or half-orc clerics).
After thinking about it for a while, it may be a good thing, too.
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Ok, my bust. Perhaps saying it the way I said it was out of line a bit. Just having looked through all the previous stuff and not seen anything like that kind of art spread led me to believe the trend would hold up. I've seen the pics from twitter and the chapter lead in pages don't seem to indicate two page spread, mainly half page. Regardless I love art so am not disappointed by it. The chapter art in 4e is some of WotC's best so far; just wish the game was the same for me, oh well. Look forward to seeing more previews. Keep them coming! ;)
Elves have always been tall and graceful. D&D made them shorter, but it wasn't consistent even there - FR had tall elves.And by "always" you mean "since Tolkien", I take it? ;) I can't find a single reference of elves being tall anywhere pre-Tolkien.
There was nothing before Tolkien.
As with elves as we know them in D&D, it might almost be true. D&D's elves aren't small fairies or seelie/unleelie fey monsters.
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Elves have always been tall and graceful. D&D made them shorter, but it wasn't consistent even there - FR had tall elves.And by "always" you mean "since Tolkien", I take it? ;) I can't find a single reference of elves being tall anywhere pre-Tolkien.
There was nothing before Tolkien.
As with elves as we know them in D&D, it might almost be true. D&D's elves aren't small fairies or seelie/unleelie fey monsters.
That is not exactly correct; while Tolkien's works "popularized" elves, they first appeared in Lord Dunsany's 'King of Elfland's Daughter' -- more than a decade before Tolkien's 'The Hobbit' was published.
(If you haven't read Lord Dunsany's works, I highly recommend them; he had a major impact on many profilic fantasy and science fiction authors of the 20th century)
There were several cultures that presented "elf like" races that were tall and beautiful, if not quite as noble as Tolkien's elves. I actually think equating elves with other small fey creatures like pixies and sprites was more of a modern convention.
And to add another specific example, I'm pretty sure that the elves from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions were another example of the "tall elf," and its obvious that that book also had an influence on D&D conventions as well.
Long time no see, fellow knight. How is the keep faring?
Heh, I've been popping up here and there, I've just been saturation bombing the internet with my opinions a little less frequently than in ages past . . . ;)
There were several cultures that presented "elf like" races that were tall and beautiful, if not quite as noble as Tolkien's elves.
Well, a lot of Tolkien's elves were not as noble as Tolkien's elves. I mean a whole subrace (Noldor) was cursed by the Valar for mass slaughter.
And to add another specific example, I'm pretty sure that the elves from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions were another example of the "tall elf," and its obvious that that book also had an influence on D&D conventions as well.
Those were splendid bastard elves!
Well, a lot of Tolkien's elves were not as noble as Tolkien's elves. I mean a whole subrace (Noldor) was cursed by the Valar for mass slaughter.
True, but a lot of people's experience with Tolkien's elves begin and end with Elrond and Galadriel. Heck, even the wood elves in The Hobbit weren't nearly as nice as the high elves that showed up in The Lord of the Rings.
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There were several cultures that presented "elf like" races that were tall and beautiful, if not quite as noble as Tolkien's elves. I actually think equating elves with other small fey creatures like pixies and sprites was more of a modern convention.
And to add another specific example, I'm pretty sure that the elves from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions were another example of the "tall elf," and its obvious that that book also had an influence on D&D conventions as well.
Sure -- elves originally derive from folklore and myths, but their "modern" incarnation is from Lord Dunsany's and Tolkien's works, I think. :)
Someone else (Erik?) mentioned this a while ago and it would seem that humans and half-elves might get to pick two favored classes. Don't know if they can confirm that yet?I'm actually disappointed to see this gone... the revision to favored classes in Beta worked *really* well in my opinion (no XP penalties anymore). And, it helped with excessive multi-classing in my group, as people wanted to get that extra +1 HP or skill point. Not to mention that eliminating it makes humans and half-elves slightly less desirable to play, unless they get something extra to compensate for this.Three cheers for Pathfinder RPG!
Huzzah for the apparent death of restrictive favored classes!
That's dumb. You get an advantage that only comes into effect if you multi-class???
And that's supposed to be your big advantage playing a human?
That might be the extra Feat you're thinking about...
I find it hard to believe they would waste two pages for art (or even one). No other PF product has art between chapters, plus Jason's comments indicates they jammed just about every page they could with information. I could see a chart or charts, but not sure what.I don't find that hard to believe at all. I don't consider fancy art a "waste" of pages. And on top of that, no other PF product is a 576 page hardcover core rulebook.
This is an entirely new beast.
I like books with lots of art. Some books I buy just because I liked some of the illustrations (what caught my eye with C&C)
That might be the extra Feat you're thinking about...
Well currently there is a huge downside to playing humans (and halflings) in that they cannot see in any kind of darkness.
Now the downside is ,in addition, that they have abilities that wont kick in at first level at all and more importantly to me that dilute their main class specialty.Multi-classing is a pain in the rear.
Someone else (Erik?) mentioned this a while ago and it would seem that humans and half-elves might get to pick two favored classes. Don't know if they can confirm that yet?That's dumb. You get an advantage that only comes into effect if you multi-class???
And that's supposed to be your big advantage playing a human?
No, that's one of the "advantages" of playing a human or half-elf. If you're a human, you also get the usual extra skill point, so, in effect, unless you multi-class into more than two classes, you'll always get two extra skill points at each level (or one hp + one skill point). I'd say that's a nice racial advantage.
Bear in mind, though, that this is something that was mentioned before the book went off to the printer, so they haven't finally confirmed whether it's true or not yet.
That might be the extra Feat you're thinking about...Well currently there is a huge downside to playing humans (and halflings) in that they cannot see in any kind of darkness.
Now the downside is ,in addition, that they have abilities that wont kick in at first level at all and more importantly to me that dilute their main class specialty.
Multi-classing is a pain in the rear.
Funny how we all look at these things differently... case in point: the thread labeled "Why play anything but a human?"
Great artwork all the way through.
Races and Classes are a well balanced mix, so glad Half Orks are there.
Not sure why there is a need for Barbarians and Rangers though, they seem to come from the same backgrounds (except the urban tracker ranger style admittedly)
Ditto I am not sure what living in the wilderness has to do with two hander weapon styles.
I'd rather see one Wilderness warrior class with light-medium armour, especially since both Fighters and Paladins usually run around in heavy armour.
Sorcerers are excellent, this is the best version of Sorcerers i've seen (including Rolemaster, Warlocks from Palladium and all versions of D&D)
Spells - Good to see Illusion and Necromancy got a good mix of spells, both are often overlooked in favour of Invocation.
Definitely prefer this way of doing magic rather than the 4th D&D version, which is closer to World of Warcraft than 3rd edition IMO.
A dream I have is that Kuo-toa and Duergar in Pathfinder get as much attention as D&D has given Drow. These two races are brimming with opportunities as bad guys.
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Not sure why there is a need for Barbarians and Rangers though, they seem to come from the same backgrounds (except the urban tracker ranger style admittedly)
Ditto I am not sure what living in the wilderness has to do with two hander weapon styles.
Rage vs. spells and skills in the wilderness. Unstoppable killing machine vs. skilled expert in a style. And, IIRC, blame Zeb Cook for two-weapon fighting rangers. When he wrote up the 2e version of the ranger, he thought TWF was a Ranger thing and not a Drow thing when he looked at Drizzt as the iconic 1e Ranger.
A dream I have is that Kuo-toa and Duergar in Pathfinder get as much attention as D&D has given Drow. These two races are brimming with opportunities as bad guys.
No go on the kuo-toa, I'm afraid. They're WotC IP and as such not available to an OGL game like Pathfinder. And the Duergar aren't that likely, being psionic creatures and the general attitude of psionics support in Paizo products being a strictly optional thing.. (Not that they get totally ignored or left out, mind you, just that psionics articles and books tend to be controversial and it's just easier to maintain sales by avoiding it rather than get tons of "I hate psionics, they've never been balanced or felt like real D&D, blah, blah, blah..." hatemail and/or posts.)
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Creative Director
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You might want to check out "Into the Darklands," then. There's a pretty healthy amount of info about the duergar in there, and while we can't use kuo-toa at all (as mentioned by the previous poster, the kuo-toa are WotC only), we CAN use the skum. They fill the role in the underground realms that the kuo-toa used to fill really rather well.
"Into the Darklands" is actually the most psionics-heavy product we've done, while we're on that topic. There's lots of psionic stuff going on down below.
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I think besides AP/module stuff, that Into the Darklands is my fave book of all the Golarion stuff. I think it's the one I've used the most, and if my game was lower level at the time I got it, I would've used it more because of the morlocks who I totally dig.
The Urdefhaans or whatever are cool too.
This might, of course, change once I get a hold of that planar book. I like the astral mosasaur looking things on the cover, and judging by the cover, it's gonna be a hoot.