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General Discussion (Prerelease)

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I must say that I like the new art for the different player races. And from what I can see it's

Spoiler:
keen senses
that's been removed from the dwarf...


I noticed the same thing, but am fine with it they get plenty anyhow

And yes the lineup is nice and they have male and female names listed which I like


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sweet,
I love the artwork. Again a nice balance of animeish and westernish. I like the longer pointy ears for the Elves (half-elves), Halflings, and Orcs. Really makes them stand out at a distance, makes it easier to say 'Oh, that's an elf/half-elf'. I also like that they are taller than humans. The elf guy still looks a little off, too much height from legs as opposed to torso to me.

I do wish they'd had one page of male figures and one page of females. My wife plays, and she always get's upset about not knowing both sides (usually because it's all male).

The layout is nice, and I like the way they did the stat block. Overall, very very nice and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on my pre-ordered copy. :)

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

evilash wrote:
I must say that I like the new art for the different player races. And from what I can see it's ** spoiler omitted ** that's been removed from the dwarf...

That was removed... but it was not the rule I was referring to.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Dark Archive

I love what I'm seeing. Pathfinder is going to Rock! Yeah baby. ;)

Oh and the new half-elf is HOT!


Giant SUBTYPE?

Combat Maneuver Defense?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
evilash wrote:
I must say that I like the new art for the different player races. And from what I can see it's ** spoiler omitted ** that's been removed from the dwarf...

That was removed... but it was not the rule I was referring to.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

From what I can see..

Spoiler:
...it appears the CMB in Stability changed to CMD (Combat Maneuver Defense). Which hints that CMB is still around, but that there have been changes to it.

Which was a change that from my admittedly newb perspective seemed to be wanted by quite a few people.

Silver Crusade

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
evilash wrote:
I must say that I like the new art for the different player races. And from what I can see it's ** spoiler omitted ** that's been removed from the dwarf...

That was removed... but it was not the rule I was referring to.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Well other than Stonecunning no longer making stone-related Profession skills class skill for dwarves, I do-*SPEWS WATER*

Spoiler:
NO MORE FAVORED CLASS?!?!

Is it gone entirely or just no longer tied to race?

Great line-up art(of course I loved the original as well)! I especially appreciate that the human has been hitting the gym.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No favoured class and Giant sub-type. If Giants are now a sub-type of humanoids, my RotRL players will be happy ("what, I can't hold person an ogre ? cause he's a giant and not humanoid ? *rolleyes*").

As for favoured class, I vaguely remember some hint that everybody gets to pick their 1 own favoured class, exception being half-elves who pick 2 in a nod to their "multiclass monkey" situation in 2e.

CMD is likely CMB + static number (like it was CMB + 15 in Beta). Of course, the big question is WHAT is that number (10 ? 12 ? 15 ? 1/3 of current Erik Mona's age ?).

Dark Archive

Something I noticed is that it appears that each race gets an entire page write up. I like that. (Edit: Except Humans who get three pages.)

I do agree it would have been nice to see both male and female versions of the race if only in the comparisson chart or have one in it and the other in the race description section.

Edit: I also counted that there are 135 pages of spells.

Silver Crusade

dm4hire wrote:
I like that. (Edit: Except Humans who get three pages.)

Huh. I wonder why. Art? Sidebars? Charts? Throwing in the ethnicity options from the Campaign Setting?

Gorbacz wrote:
As for favoured class, I vaguely remember some hint that everybody gets to pick their 1 own favoured class,

That's certainly something I can get behind.

Dark Archive

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Dark Archive

Four pages of sample traps.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Asgetrion wrote:

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Might be interesting to compare the sizes of the feats chapters between the Beta and the final.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Erik Mona wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Might be interesting to compare the sizes of the feats chapters between the Beta and the final.

No worries there.. the chapter got longer because I added a bunch of awesome doodles... wait... that was just a dream.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Silver Crusade

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Might be interesting to compare the sizes of the feats chapters between the Beta and the final.

No worries there.. the chapter got longer because I added a bunch of awesome doodles... wait... that was just a dream.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Six pages of doodles then!

Beta = 22 pages
Final = 28 pages

Dark Archive

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
evilash wrote:
I must say that I like the new art for the different player races. And from what I can see it's ** spoiler omitted ** that's been removed from the dwarf...

That was removed... but it was not the rule I was referring to.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Why was this removed? After all, it seems like such a minor (but flavorful) bonus, so I just can't see the reason for eliminating this.

Dark Archive

Erik Mona wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Might be interesting to compare the sizes of the feats chapters between the Beta and the final.

Well, I counted six extra pages, which would imply you *did* include them in the game! Marvelous! =)

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Asgetrion wrote:
Why was this removed? After all, it seems like such a minor (but flavorful) bonus, so I just can't see the reason for eliminating this.

Of all the races, the dwarf is the most cluttered, so pulling this small bonus was the easiest way to clean things up a bit.. and there were some changes to how that works... but that is for another blog.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Asgetrion wrote:
Why was this removed? After all, it seems like such a minor (but flavorful) bonus, so I just can't see the reason for eliminating this.

Perhaps this is resolved by taking a trait, so that each dwarf/character can be given individual choices (are the Trait rules in because there is no mentioning in the TOC preview... *blink*)

BTW: nice layout. like it


They are not, that was said a while back. However they are a free download


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
evilash wrote:
I must say that I like the new art for the different player races. And from what I can see it's ** spoiler omitted ** that's been removed from the dwarf...

That was removed... but it was not the rule I was referring to.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Whats the deal with Favored Classes Bulmahn you fiend?

Love the giant sub-type reference, didn't catch that one myself.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Might be interesting to compare the sizes of the feats chapters between the Beta and the final.

No worries there.. the chapter got longer because I added a bunch of awesome doodles... wait... that was just a dream.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

You've been sleeping?


Three cheers for Pathfinder RPG!

Huzzah for the apparent death of restrictive favored classes!

Spoiler:
No more bribing characters to play stereotypes!

Huzzah for Giants being a subtype!

Spoiler:
Being exceptionally tall no longer makes you immune to charm person!

Huzzah for cutting down on the "fiddly bits" of races no one remembers in play!

Spoiler:
Now hopefully the Half-Elf gets a flat bonus to Perception so that I don't have to say "+2 sight or sound" whenever my DM asks for a perception check...

-C. Robert Brown


Is there still room on the "this half-elf is HOT!" train? I'd like to get on!

Nemesis_Rex wrote:
Giant SUBTYPE?

WOOOHOOOO!

I hadn't thought that possible with the PF revision, but it is a most welcome change. I must have complained about this weirdness for years now!

It's nice to see that either my ideas have been picked up, or alternately, that great minds do think alike in this! :)

Can't wait to see what else was cleaned up in regards to types and subtypes!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I like the human even better than the half-elf.

Dark Archive

Robert Ranting wrote:

Three cheers for Pathfinder RPG!

Huzzah for the apparent death of restrictive favored classes!

I'm actually disappointed to see this gone... the revision to favored classes in Beta worked *really* well in my opinion (no XP penalties anymore). And, it helped with excessive multi-classing in my group, as people wanted to get that extra +1 HP or skill point. Not to mention that eliminating it makes humans and half-elves slightly less desirable to play, unless they get something extra to compensate for this.

I never saw them being "restrictive", as I've thought certain racial stereotypes are necessary in fantasy fiction and RPGs. And it'd bother me if the +2 to INT is the only difference between an elven and dwarven wizard...

Dark Archive

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
Why was this removed? After all, it seems like such a minor (but flavorful) bonus, so I just can't see the reason for eliminating this.

Of all the races, the dwarf is the most cluttered, so pulling this small bonus was the easiest way to clean things up a bit.. and there were some changes to how that works... but that is for another blog.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Hmmm... I personally would have pulled the dodge bonus against giants and "tweaked" Hatred to work against any type/subtype in the similar vein that players choose Favored Enemies for rangers -- after all, some clans might have never battled giants or goblinoids, but aberrations or undead, for example.


Asgetrion wrote:
Robert Ranting wrote:

Three cheers for Pathfinder RPG!

Huzzah for the apparent death of restrictive favored classes!

I'm actually disappointed to see this gone... the revision to favored classes in Beta worked *really* well in my opinion (no XP penalties anymore). And, it helped with excessive multi-classing in my group, as people wanted to get that extra +1 HP or skill point. Not to mention that eliminating it makes humans and half-elves slightly less desirable to play, unless they get something extra to compensate for this.

Someone else (Erik?) mentioned this a while ago and it would seem that humans and half-elves might get to pick two favored classes. Don't know if they can confirm that yet?

Dark Archive

Erik Mona wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:

How about the additional Playtest Feats? Our group *loves* Advance, Lunge, Step Up, Master Artisan, all the Critical Feats, etcetera. Did they make it to the final rules? I fervently hope so...

Might be interesting to compare the sizes of the feats chapters between the Beta and the final.

No worries there.. the chapter got longer because I added a bunch of awesome doodles... wait... that was just a dream.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

You've been sleeping?

He just passed out at his desk... give him some coffee, and Jason will be ready to write and post some more previews! ;)

Dark Archive

GentleGiant wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
Robert Ranting wrote:

Three cheers for Pathfinder RPG!

Huzzah for the apparent death of restrictive favored classes!

I'm actually disappointed to see this gone... the revision to favored classes in Beta worked *really* well in my opinion (no XP penalties anymore). And, it helped with excessive multi-classing in my group, as people wanted to get that extra +1 HP or skill point. Not to mention that eliminating it makes humans and half-elves slightly less desirable to play, unless they get something extra to compensate for this.
Someone else (Erik?) mentioned this a while ago and it would seem that humans and half-elves might get to pick two favored classes. Don't know if they can confirm that yet?

I hope so... my players (and I) absolutely loved the revision. And, as I said, it encouraged singleclassing in my group but yet didn't invalidate multiclassing completely. :)


Check out Appendix 3: Inspiring Reading.

Liberty's Edge

I really like the design treatment of the book. The framing of the pages are lush and nicely illustrated and artwork is the usual high standard we've come to expect from the folks at Paizo. Even the rule lines are treated with brush strokes and illumination! Nice touch.

I like the race line up too. Pink and purple gnomes make me smile. :) Also, that half orc must have huuuuge wrist bones.

A nice first preview and it's got me jazzed about the product for sure.


Asgetrion wrote:


Not to mention that eliminating it makes humans and half-elves slightly less desirable to play, unless they get something extra to compensate for this.

It's okay: Humans are already very desirable to play. They can be toned down a little bit.

Asgetrion wrote:


"tweaked" Hatred to work against any type/subtype in the similar vein that players choose Favored Enemies for rangers -- after all, some clans might have never battled giants or goblinoids, but aberrations or undead, for example.

No. Either they get an actual racial grudge match, or they get nothing. Free bonuses would be too much.

You don't grant them free proficiency in any three martial weapons, either, just because some clans might prefer swords.

Or give them +2 to any two ability scores (and -2 to another), because there might be a clan that has many wizards and sorcerers and thus would work better with +2 int, +2 cha -2 str.

If you do too much free stuff, you can as well do away with racial abilities and make the race a purely flavourite* choice.

*Yes, I just made that up.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:


No worries there.. the chapter got longer because I added a bunch of awesome doodles... wait... that was just a dream.

Must have been a huge dream. Because you were asleep for almost a week. Hurry, the next preview is due in a couple of hours! Quickly put something up. After that, you could also ask the tech guys why there have been no other blog entries in the past week and why the boards show the time of 6 days or so previous. But first: The next preview!

Dark Archive

KaeYoss wrote:

No. Either they get an actual racial grudge match, or they get nothing. Free bonuses would be too much.

You don't grant them free proficiency in any three martial weapons, either, just because some clans might prefer swords.

Or give them +2 to any two ability scores (and -2 to another), because there might be a clan that has many wizards and sorcerers and thus would work better with +2 int, +2 cha -2 str.

If you do too much free stuff, you can as well do away with racial abilities and make the race a purely flavourite* choice.

Um, they do get the bonuses against goblinoids now, so what's wrong if the player gets to choose a single type/subtype/organization his clan has the "grudge" against? It wouldn't be a free or additional bonus.

Also, it's hardly the same as picking 'Elven Curve Sword' as one of your clan's racial weapons (that I wouldn't allow); a freely-chosen enemy instead of a pre-selected one would fit dwarves very well, in my opinion.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
dm4hire wrote:

Something I noticed is that it appears that each race gets an entire page write up. I like that. (Edit: Except Humans who get three pages.)

You'd think we'd know enough about them already, wouldn't you?


Asgetrion wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:

No. Either they get an actual racial grudge match, or they get nothing. Free bonuses would be too much.

You don't grant them free proficiency in any three martial weapons, either, just because some clans might prefer swords.

Or give them +2 to any two ability scores (and -2 to another), because there might be a clan that has many wizards and sorcerers and thus would work better with +2 int, +2 cha -2 str.

If you do too much free stuff, you can as well do away with racial abilities and make the race a purely flavourite* choice.

Um, they do get the bonuses against goblinoids now, so what's wrong if the player gets to choose a single type/subtype/organization his clan has the "grudge" against? It wouldn't be a free or additional bonus.

Also, it's hardly the same as picking 'Elven Curve Sword' as one of your clan's racial weapons (that I wouldn't allow); a freely-chosen enemy instead of a pre-selected one would fit dwarves very well, in my opinion.

just do it like that in your games. The rules are finalized now. We can only wait and see.

I too hope that pick any class to be your favored cless, humans and half-elfs get two mechanic shows up. If not I might just have my first PFRPG houserule!

Liberty's Edge

snif
i liked the red headed human from the old picture, but aye the half-elf looks better and the elf doesn't look as WoW Night Elf any more... the gnome went from doll to punk

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Drakli wrote:
dm4hire wrote:

Something I noticed is that it appears that each race gets an entire page write up. I like that. (Edit: Except Humans who get three pages.)

You'd think we'd know enough about them already, wouldn't you?

Actually, that's the problem. Humans are so widely known that everyone has their own ideas about them - which of course will not match.


Excellent job Jason!

Impagination, index, pictures and whatever. It's perfect... and very friendly to read.

But I especially appreciated the new rules... and I can't wait for reading some chapters...

Races's new look? excellent. +1

NO favored class! +1

Giant subtype? at least? +1

CMD? +111!!!one!!!eleven! I've already used it as home rule in my campaign, and it's great. In my version was BAB+des+special size modifier, a dexterous CMB by the way.

"Rules and guidelines for playing more powerful or more
unusual races can be found in Chapter 12." If the're as good as I think, +200

Your rational criterio in putting the right stuff in the rightest chapter? -300 problems, but +1000 thanks! :D

Seriously... good job my friends!


Wow, nice design; I actually prefer it to that of the 3.5 core. So far Paizo is making all the right moves in terms of the look and production of the Pathfinder RPG. I'm very curious to see the depiction of armor, something about 3.5 that I never liked...

Poor dwarves...only 4ft tall, and GOOD LORD wax those arms!


Gorbacz wrote:


CMD is likely CMB + static number (like it was CMB + 15 in Beta). Of course, the big question is WHAT is that number (10 ? 12 ? 15 ? 1/3 of current Erik Mona's age ?).

*prays for Touch AC*


Asgetrion wrote:


Um, they do get the bonuses against goblinoids now, so what's wrong if the player gets to choose a single type/subtype/organization his clan has the "grudge" against? It wouldn't be a free or additional bonus.

It's not really a racial background any more, though. It's a free level of ranger (well, not quite, but it's more a class ability than a racial one).

Asgetrion wrote:


Also, it's hardly the same as picking 'Elven Curve Sword' as one of your clan's racial weapons (that I wouldn't allow)

Bad example, elven curve blades are exotic weapons.

Asgetrion wrote:


a freely-chosen enemy instead of a pre-selected one would fit dwarves very well, in my opinion.

And freely choosing a weapon wouldn't?

Sure, a lot of stories have them use axes and hammers.

But many stories also have them go against orcs and goblins.

It's the same really.

Racial abilities shouldn't be that freeform, because then, they become just some freebies that don't add to the racial profile:

You get to choose your ability score bonus (because different clans/families/tribes/whatever value intelligence more than insight and so on), and skill bonuses (while some are about stone, others are all about animal husbandry, so they should get ride and handle animal), weapon proficiencies (this group lives in the desert and favours scimitars).... it goes on and on.

You can make the same argument for every single racial ability, and before long, they lose all meaning - just a bit more power in addition to classes. The races don't have specific roles any more, no specific places. They really become humans with funny heads.

That's because racial traits will, by default, showcase the typical member of that race.

Typical dwarves hate orcs and goblins because their race has fought those races for thousands of years. They don't get bonuses against dragons because they don't fight against dragons constantly.

The typical halfling gets a save bonus against fear, because they're brave little fellas. They don't get a bonus against charm because they're not known for their indomitable willpower.

Gnomes get +2 Con, Cha, and -2 Str because they're small and weak, but tough, as well as naturally likable. They don't get +2 Int, +2 Dex -2 Wis because they're not smart and fast but weakwilled.


toyrobots wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:


CMD is likely CMB + static number (like it was CMB + 15 in Beta). Of course, the big question is WHAT is that number (10 ? 12 ? 15 ? 1/3 of current Erik Mona's age ?).
*prays for Touch AC*

It would be too good to be true! :D


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Lord Fyre wrote:
Actually, that's the problem. Humans are so widely known that everyone has their own ideas about them - which of course will not match.

I'm afraid I don't understand. Beyond racial stat traits, what's to clarify about humans? Generally speaking, unless someone is unfamiliar enough to think humans are one-eyed, one-horned, flying, purple-people eaters, it seems like everyone's non-crunch assumptions are going to be right, especially when they don't match, as varied as humans are.

... unless, as someone else suggested, the extra pages are for Golarion human flavortext, which... honestly, trying to be a homebrewer, I generally don't need in the base rule set. Especially if I already have the Golarion Campaign Setting book for when I do need the inspiration. Just saying.

EDIT: Grant you, I could be proven wrong. Possibly the extra pages talk about how to create distinct and believable human cultures to represent humanity's endless variety. That could be useful.


KaeYoss wrote:
(a lot in response to someone's idea)

Uh, gentlemen? It's at the printer.

The time for ideas and reasoned response has passed. Sit back and enjoy the splendid morsels.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Changes from Beta Dwarf to PFRPG Dwarf:

Stonecunning - profession skills related to stone treated as a class skill is gone.

Keen Senses - gone (I liked this ...)

Greed - Appraise is no longer treated as a class skill (makes sense, most classes had it as a class skill anyway <G>)

Hearty changed to Hardy, but otherwise the same

Defensive Training - Giant TYPE changed to Giant SUBTYPE

Stability - Combat Manuever Bonus changed to Combat Manuever Defense ... leaving us all wanting more info on THAT :)

Languages - Elemental became Terran

Favored Class has gone MIA (hoping that it remains somewhere as an option for folks to chose one ... not looking forward to adjusting all those skill points again LOL!)

I like the new art (but I also liked the old). This is a great first taste of what's to come! Can't wait for more :)


Robert Ranting wrote:

Huzzah for Giants being a subtype!

** spoiler omitted **

-C. Robert Brown

Except the Dwarf entry says "Monsters with the giant subtype). Compare this to the referense to humanoids with the goblin subtype. This means it might be possible that the bestiary will have creatures that are Monstrous Humanoid (giant) and Aberration (Giant).

It also means no bonuses against goblin snakes.

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