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Size really isn't an issue when most Dragons can Polymorph into a humanoid shape. As for collecting treasure, well I would assume the more evil inclined dragons simply take from the neighboring humanoid areas, by force or it is offered as a sacrifice to keep the Dragon at bay. But in that mind set you are stuck with how does the good aligned dragon amass his wealth?
I have only one word for you...
Tribute.
'Lowly mortals, my lord the great wyrm Scarscale demands that you bring to the offering bowl a weight of gold equal to the largest man in your town, two full grown bulls, eight goats and a ram. For this tribute your town will be allowed to suffer in its pitiful state for one more year without being cleansed from the land, however Scarscale was displeased with your offering last year, so he has withdrawn his protection from you. You are now fair hunting growned for my tribe. You have until the full moon.' - Larg, the kobold emissary to the town of Oakham.
This might sound kind of gross but I don't see why a creature like a Dragon wouldn't do it (they might even have some kind of specialized organ for it, like an extra stomach). They could swallow all kinds of coins and gems and then regurgitate it when they get back to their lair.
It doesn't have to be covered in puke or anything like that, a Dragon could even have an inner throat pouch. Of course some Dragon's might find this distasteful, but I guess those would be the ones with all the servants. Loner type Dragons (especially the more bestial types like Whites) don't have a problem with it.
Yeah, I'd go with tribute, and it's created lots of fun situations in my games. And when they're big and powerful enough, they can just come in and loot an entire settlement (The King under the Mountain, anyone?).
Sorry, I was kind of assuming that you would follow my mental images...coffee still taking effect. The King Under the Mountain example was meant to envision looting by moving in and taking up residence. In game tribute has always worked for me by having minions (per the kobold appearing above.) But I have also always assumed that dragon's have a much finer motor skills and manual dexterity than one would assume with those great claws. Kudos to David Roberts.
And I really like the idea of dragons consuming and regurgitating their treasure. Dragons, like many large creatures, have multiple stomachs. Evolution has assigned a new function to one of those stomach, and it has specialized in storage. The treasure gullet (goard? gut? cud?) can consume huge amounts of treasure and cough it back up without damaging it. In fact, the secretions of that stomach act as a cleanser.
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Large claws do not necessarily negate the ability to control minute objects. The elephant's trunk is an example of a clumsy looking yet dextrous tool. I am not sure I would accept the premise that a dragon's claws are clumsy.
Besides which, dragons are also natural spellcasters and either mage hand or unseen servant could work for some tasks. And of course dragon's rarely chain anyone up themselves - they have servants who do that for them if they are the sort to be chaining people up. I imagine the loners just eat them.
Exactly...like a trunk, Wicht.
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One more thing... (as uncle would say)
Even accepting the claws are not dextrous enough, there is another tool at the dragon's disposal for the movement of small objects like coins. We sometimes overlook it because ours are a bit stubby and people would think you were being improper and possibly unhygenic. It is the tongue. I could easily picture a dragon using his tongue to move small coins from one spot to another, perhaps tasting each one as he dropped it into a large bag to carry to his lair.
Large claws do not necessarily negate the ability to control minute objects. The elephant's trunk is an example of a clumsy looking yet dextrous tool. I am not sure I would accept the premise that a dragon's claws are clumsy.
Besides which, dragons are also natural spellcasters and either mage hand or unseen servant could work for some tasks. And of course dragon's rarely chain anyone up themselves - they have servants who do that for them if they are the sort to be chaining people up. I imagine the loners just eat them.
Ditto the above - those claws are razor sharp and could hold tiny things and even flip pages.
Also you don't need servants to chain up prisoners, just growl at them until they chain themselves up, and eat the last one.
So a dragon has to transform in human shape in order to practice one of the central activities in his life? (collecting treasure etc.) What an irony and what a problem for those who cannot polymorph.
Yes, but those who can polymorph are in human disguise most of their time anyway. Trust me, I know what I am talking about.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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According to the Draconimicon: "Although a dragon's front feet are not truly prehensile, a dragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold and carry objects. A dragon is also capable of wielding magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic components required for spells ..." (pp. 6-7).
I think somewhere in there it does say something about tongues being useful as well but I can't find where.
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Mage hand, unseen servant and kobold minions (we love you!) are probably the best options for an older, and therefore larger dragon. Younger, smaller dragons probably get by by carrying things in their mouth, and their paws are small enough that they don't risk destroying books, as long as they take reasonable care.
As for learning magic; they're natural sorcerers. It comes to them naturally. They don't need a teacher or source material unless they're taking class levels in wizard too.
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According to the Draconimicon: "Although a dragon's front feet are not truly prehensile, a dragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold and carry objects. A dragon is also capable of wielding magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic components required for spells ..." (pp. 6-7).
I think somewhere in there it does say something about tongues being useful as well but I can't find where.
I read that this morning as well. Then I found myself wondering why a dragon could hold a wand and weave the claws into complex spells shapes but couldn't swing a battle-ax (or even a big tree). maybe its the shoulders are built wrong. :)
Also don't forget another potential way that dragons can amass treasure, particularly magic items... adventurers seeking it out intending to slay it. :D
Which gives me another twisted idea: What if dragons had the ability to spawn kobold minions (which it possibly usually eats after they've done with their tasks)? That would add a twist to kobold ecology.
I see, you don't know Scrooge McD...ragon ...
I read that this morning as well. Then I found myself wondering why a dragon could hold a wand and weave the claws into complex spells shapes but couldn't swing a battle-ax (or even a big tree). maybe its the shoulders are built wrong. :)According to the Draconimicon: "Although a dragon's front feet are not truly prehensile, a dragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold and carry objects. A dragon is also capable of wielding magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic components required for spells ..." (pp. 6-7).
I think somewhere in there it does say something about tongues being useful as well but I can't find where.
I'm behind the tongue idea, too. Don't know what Paizo did with dragons in the new book, but I hope that they moved away from the Draconomicon's position on dragon claws, for the reasons Wicht gives among others. The classic picture of stories both old and new are of hoarders who are intimate with their treasure down to the lowliest copper. Smaug had no kobold minions, but he sure gathered up all the treasures of Lonely Mountain into a single hoard.
Dragons get their treasure from their dinner guests of course.
"My, wasn't that a fine meal, now where did my dinner guests go, they have left all their possessions behind." As the dragon pats his nicely full belly."
I also had imagined that a dragon could use it's claws well enough to manipulate or hold onto some objects.
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Dragons collect and move loot just like humanoids do... in containers. Whereas an adventurer uses sacks and chests, a dragon uses things like ships sails, cargo nets, and whole wagons to haul off trade goods.
Or another option supported by classic lit... their belly scales can be opened up and individual coins and gems can be lodged in between them. Think of a porcupine moving their quills or a cats hair standing up. A dragon opens his scales and just rolls in a pile of coin scooping them up by the belly full.
--Vrock, stock, and barrel!
My children possess surprising manual dexterity. They can pick up single coins, write (no need for a quill, they usually use their claws), and make surgical-precision cuts to the bellies of people asking impertinent questions.
Not that I'm pointing any fingers here...
According to the Draconimicon: "Although a dragon's front feet are not truly prehensile, a dragon can grasp objects with its front feet, provided they are not too small. This grip is not precise enough for tool use, writing, or wielding a weapon, but a dragon can hold and carry objects. A dragon is also capable of wielding magical devices, such as wands, and can complete somatic components required for spells ..." (pp. 6-7).
That makes little sense to me: you can wield a wand but not a quarterstaff or a great axe? You can handle bat guano and feathers, but not a hammer? Obviously, this rationale is about game balance. Still, good quotation.
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Evil dragons extort from anyone in their teritory.... good dragons do the same thing but call it "tribute" never forget that to a dragon you are insignificant at worst and at best you are a pet, or like my favorite T-shirt says "never meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" ;-)
How about this:
When a dragon sets up a lair, his/her presence acts as a trans-dimensional treasure magnet. Slowly, over time, treasure begins to appear in the lair, whether it's a coin rolling across the floor, a piece of fine art suddenly popping into existence into the lair, the contents of long forgotten tombs deciding to be where someone can appreciate them . . .The radius of this effect would extend over time, being directly proportional to both the time the dragon had used the lair, and the age of the dragon. Think of a dragon as a "Treasure Black Hole" with an expanding Event Horizon.
This would be in addition to the usual tribute/extortion, piles of loot from dead adventurer's, gifts from adoring minions or those seeking favors.
Consider this: the average dragon, of any size or age, has a dexterity of 10, the human average. Which means they should basically be as capable of fine motor control as the average human.
Why? Because size has modifiers for dexterity, and dragons get impressive racial bonuses to dexterity as they grow larger. Because a collosal dragon, taking a huge size penalty to its dexterity, still has a dex of 10.
You could look at it as part of base attack. With a base attack of 30+, you are pretty accurate when you want to put your claws somewhere. If you could disarm an impertinent halfling of a dagger and leave him unharmed, im pretty sure you can flip a page in a book or pick up a coin.
unseen servant?
/nobrainer.
If you could disarm an impertinent halfling of a dagger and leave him unharmed, im pretty sure you can flip a page in a book or pick up a coin.
*lifely vision of a huge dragon lying comfortably on his hoard, licking a finger of his claw and then flipping a page of a big folio he is reading in.*
If you could disarm an impertinent halfling of a dagger and leave him unharmed, im pretty sure you can flip a page in a book or pick up a coin.
They can totally do that.
Oh, wait, no. I read "unarmed". Not arm as in weapon, but arm as in limb. They can totally do that.
Prestidigitation?
Hand of the Apprentice?
Well there is a sublement I can not remember the name of it, I know brillent start but there talking about kobolds.
And they say "Kobolds have a secert.... Thier rich. how do you think dragons get all of there horde?"
Dragons live far beyond what humans do and aside from that they make tasty snacks with prizes on the outside.
You can collect a horde a number of ways, off things you killed, trading with other creatures, as tribute from non standered races such as Orcs and Goblinoids.
Corrupting goverment officals, arranging deals where you kidnap someone so they can push there latest unreasonable law through due to your 'terriable reign'
Taxing your subjects.
Demand tribute from them as the god.
Creating a relgion centered around you and being exempt from taxes.
There is plenty of ways they can build there horde.
I mean even if they can't pick up in there full form those individual items anymore doesn't mean they didn't treasure it at some point in time.
In the natural world, hands aren't required for manipulating items (and I know that manipulating derives from hands).
Birds build complex things with beaks. Many mammals have dextrous lips.
How about this:
When a dragon sets up a lair, his/her presence acts as a trans-dimensional treasure magnet. Slowly, over time, treasure begins to appear in the lair, whether it's a coin rolling across the floor, a piece of fine art suddenly popping into existence into the lair, the contents of long forgotten tombs deciding to be where someone can appreciate them . . .The radius of this effect would extend over time, being directly proportional to both the time the dragon had used the lair, and the age of the dragon. Think of a dragon as a "Treasure Black Hole" with an expanding Event Horizon.
This would be in addition to the usual tribute/extortion, piles of loot from dead adventurer's, gifts from adoring minions or those seeking favors.
Oooh, cool idea.
Even better.
Wherever that long forgotten tomb is, or wherever that piece of fine art used to be sitting (a museum maybe, or a rich manor house), when the treasure pops into the dragon's hoard, a little note, in draconic of course, appears at the spot from which the treasure disappeared.
It should say something like (assuming, in this case, the misappropriated treasure is a priceless jade figurine):
IOU one priceless jade figurine.
-Smaug.
P.S. come to my lair to collect at any time.
P.P.S. If you do come to collect, please bring a large bag of coins with you.
P.S. come to my lair to collect at any time.
P.P.S. If you do come to collect, please bring a large bag of coins with you.
P.P.P.S. Do use the right perfume. Teryaki, for example.
Well there is a sublement I can not remember the name of it, I know brillent start but there talking about kobolds.
And they say "Kobolds have a secert.... Thier rich. how do you think dragons get all of there horde?"
This is from Races of the Dragon (p. 51).
How does the good aligned dragon amass his wealth?
By killing evil dragons. And foolish, evil adventurers who try to kill them first.
Actually, I kinda always thought that dragons amassed their wealth either by tribute (as has been suggested) or by slaying countless thousands of foolhardy, ill-prepared adventurers. After living 1200 years or so, an ancient dragon has probably survived 5000 indivdual attacks on its lair (4-5 per year, one every other month or so).
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This question may sound trivial, but how can a dragon collect a treasury for his lair?
Oh, you know, the usual route. Yard sales, Going-Out-Of-Business sales, Craig's List. ;)
Seriously, though, you have the polymorph option for many dragons. You also have the tribute option.
And then there are all those silly adventurers who actually think they could take on a dragon and win who end up leaving their stuff lying about the dragon's lair when they realize, all too late, that they were quite wrong in their assumptions.
All of the above certainly work, but you're forgetting an important one: Wish. 5000XP translate into 25,000GP, in whatever form the dragon damn well pleases. Gold is easiest, as no breath weapon will harm its intrinsic value, and even if you had to use fire (in the case of a red dragon) to incinerate some annoying adventurers which slagged your hoard into one big golden mass, you can always hit it with Fabricate to effectively fluff the pillows and give you a nice hoard of shiny new-minted coins.
As for dragons using spellbooks, the shapechangers certainly will if suits their needs, but for the most part, meh. Levels of sorcerer will do just fine.
[Actually, I kinda always thought that dragons amassed their wealth either by tribute (as has been suggested) or by slaying countless thousands of foolhardy, ill-prepared adventurers. After living 1200 years or so, an ancient dragon has probably survived 5000 indivdual attacks on its lair (4-5 per year, one every other month or so).
The first option has it's downside:
"Ahh, King Fred. So good of you to be on time with your tribute. Just have your porters haul it down the left passage there. Mind the the stalagmite, it's a roper guardian. Oh, and hug the right wall to avoid the hidden pit trap, then hug the left wall to avoid the piercers above. Yes, yes, then through the secret door there and please dump those chests on my pile of coin. Thank you so kindly. Oh, what's that servant doing? Is that a map he's making? Taking notes? Roooaaaarrr!"
But the other option is awkward too:
"Oooh, goody, I see some evil adventurers have arrived. Let's see here, what are my battle plans now? Oh, yeah, no fire. No sir. Don't want to melt those scrolls, boil those potions, or burn up those magical cloaks and boots. And none of those adventurers better fall into my lava trap. I lose more treasure that way. Really, I should just bury that thing the way I disabled that old acid trap. Oh, and don't kill any of them until they find the treasure room. I remember last time I killed evil adventurers in the entrance hall. Took me months to haul all that gold down to my treaure pile. Why, sometimes it can take me an hour to pick just one coin up off the cave floor..."
Face it, it just sucks to be a greatwyrm...
"Oooh, goody, I see some evil adventurers have arrived. Let's see here, what are my battle plans now? Oh, yeah, no fire. No sir. Don't want to melt those scrolls, boil those potions, or burn up those magical cloaks and boots. And none of those adventurers better fall into my lava trap. I lose more treasure that way. Really, I should just bury that thing the way I disabled that old acid trap. Oh, and don't kill any of them until they find the treasure room. I remember last time I killed evil adventurers in the entrance hall. Took me months to haul all that gold down to my treaure pile. Why, sometimes it can take me an hour to pick just one coin up off the cave floor..."
Face it, it just sucks to be a greatwyrm...
Unseen Servant is a 1st level spell. One assumes all dragons take it. It saves a great deal of bother.
Ditto Mage Hand.
"Oooh, goody, I see some evil adventurers have arrived. Let's see here, what are my battle plans now? Oh, yeah, no fire. No sir. Don't want to melt those scrolls, boil those potions, or burn up those magical cloaks and boots. And none of those adventurers better fall into my lava trap. I lose more treasure that way. Really, I should just bury that thing the way I disabled that old acid trap. Oh, and don't kill any of them until they find the treasure room. I remember last time I killed evil adventurers in the entrance hall. Took me months to haul all that gold down to my treaure pile. Why, sometimes it can take me an hour to pick just one coin up off the cave floor..."
Face it, it just sucks to be a greatwyrm...
Unseen Servant is a 1st level spell. One assumes all dragons take it. It saves a great deal of bother.
Ditto Mage Hand.
You think a greedy, stingy, dragon (and that's just the good alinged dragons) would dare to trust a servant they can't see?
No way, that servant might nip a silver or two when the dragon isn't looking.
Not gonna chance it.
As for Mage Hand, well, dragons without class levels don't get the at-will cantrips, and mage hand targets one item. So a pile of a thousand gold will take the dragon how many days, using Mage Hand on one coin each time he casts the spell - how many cantrips does he get each day?
And how long is he willing to sleep in his entrance hall so no enterprising burglars try to sneak in and loot the unmoved entrance treasure while the dragon sleeps deep down in his treasure room?
Nope, still quite the conundrum, IYAM.
No, my theory is that dragons marry into opposeable digitation. They find a lovely young kobold damsel, or maybe even mate outsice their race (hence all those sorcerers with draconic bloodlines found in so many diverse races).
It's right there in the vows:
"To honor and to cherish, to hold and to bear, til death do we part."
Now, nobody, not even a gold-digger bride, would be foolish enough to break such a vow with a dragon. Even good dragons consider the one-two punch of vow breaking and hoard robbing to be an instant death sentence.
The only hard part is writing the 817 page pre-nup...
As for Mage Hand, well, dragons without class levels don't get the at-will cantrips
Of course they do. They cast spells like a sorcerer. A sorcerer casts those at will.
Here's the thing about mage hand and unseen servant: there are times that dragons would find them convenient, just like any arcane spell caster. However, dragons (like many human wizards) are also connoisseurs, collectors. There are many times they will want to handle a book or object, manipulate it. And they can--I'm tellin' ya, I've seen them do it! The Draconomicon is about as accurate as Pliny's Natural History. More work remains to be done!
Here's the thing about mage hand and unseen servant: there are times that dragons would find them convenient, just like any arcane spell caster. However, dragons (like many human wizards) are also connoisseurs, collectors. There are many times they will want to handle a book or object, manipulate it. And they can--I'm tellin' ya, I've seen them do it! The Draconomicon is about as accurate as Pliny's Natural History. More work remains to be done!
This strikes me a lot like the picture of the aboleth wearing the magic cloak on its tail and the magic rings on its tentacles--possible, but ultimately very silly.
Human artifacts are made for human ergonomics and human convenience. Without magic or shapeshifting, a dragon is going to find the craft of papermaking impossible, and more than that, pointless, as its fragile stuff that doesn't hold up well relative to draconic ergonomics or a draconic lifetime.
However, lets say that for some reason--let's say "just because"--a dragon wants to take a level in Wizard, and thus automatically gets a Scribe Scroll feat. How do they scribe scrolls without paper? (And let's not get into the business of putting things on scales--it's like a human wizard writing scrolls on dandruff flakes.)
So, your red dragon goes over to the river, grabs a nice handful of high quality clay (used in place of the costly pigments, but worth the same to the dragon), makes a clay tablet, scratches some draconic runes with its claws, then breathes fire on it and fires it into nice durable stoneware. That's a scroll it can use whenever it likes, and will be there in a thousand years when it still plans to be alive. The blue dragon likely does something similar, but probably glazes it with sand while it's at it.
The green dragon does the same thing but with some extremely durable wood. And oak tree works well. Make a few rune staves, which are not actually wizard staves, but dragonic scrolls.
A white dragon, for style points, would probably make its scrolls out of ice, frozen with its breath into the blue ice from the Frostfell supplement, or if you don't have it, just say it's magical ice that doesn't melt unless you throw it into a fire or something.
As for black dragons, they probably make their scrolls out of nice acid-resistant gold, which is soft enough to be marked with their claws, unharmed by their breath weapon, and finally gold, which is a nice thing to have even once the scrolls magic is used up, and infinitely reusable (though a DM could deduct the scroll costs from the gold).