WotC halts PDF sales


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Franz Lunzer wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

[Warning! Speculative post!]

From the end results apparent across forums, my first thought is that the current directives from Hasbro/WotC to their D&D division are to concentrate on 4E, and to cut support by Hasbro/WotC of anything D&D related except for 4E. -sniped-

Well, they pulled all editions of D&D from 1st to 4th.

I thought that their Digital Initiative was supposed to supply their subscribers with the 4E rules at a mouse click, or did that never materialise?

If it never did, or if it did, but has had the plug pulled on it too, then yes, I would agree that it looks as if they are not supporting 4E too.


What drives me crazy about the WotC fanboys is how they ignore history and blame everything on outside forces. How is my not playing 4th edition and opting for Pathfinder ruining their enjoyment of 4th edition?

WotC created the OGL to open up the game to third party publishers. This, in effect, gave the 3rd Edition version of the game to all the fans. Wizards did this.

Let me repeat. Wizards of the Coast chose to do this.

The fact that this decision has hurt them financially is no ones fault but their own. Did they make some lifelong fans because of it? Yes, I was one of them until they decided to take the game in a different direction.

Do I still appreciate that original decision? Of course, because without it, we wouldn't have the content from great individuals who for one reason or another, can't publish through WotC or would rather publish on their own. And who is that? Just read the list of contributors to the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting for starters.


rolandcaldric wrote:

Not sure if this situation is simply absurd or maddening. I have been purchasing 4th edition products and honestly enjoy the system so much that it started me thinking about running old school D&D products, Paizo Pathfinder, etc. and converting them to 4th edition. In fact I was already starting to make purchases of some of the old Mystara setting from this very site because I have been really impressed by the product lines here. Talk about poor timing? Yikes.

However, I think I will just go back to the Pathfinder products and let WOTC enjoy the money they already have from me to this point, but not a penny more.

Pardon me for posting this but: me too. :)


Its amazing to me how "blind" people can be about companies. A company screws over customers time and time again, but its OK, its the companies right to do what they do.

I think this time WOTC will be finding out the customer has the right to be angry and to stop being a customer.

I for one know that this is WOTC's fault, not Paizo's or Drivethru's.

I own everything I want from the old editions in print, and I was buying the nice legal PDF's for the digital copy I am entitled to by law, to save me the trouble of making them myself.

Now I have decided on alternative means with which to "create" my digital copies of the print products I own. For WOTC products. Paizo at least is smart enough to realize I don't have to pay them for a digital copy of something I own in print, that I can "create" one for myself, for personal use. So Paizo is smart enough to offer up digital versions at prices I am willing to pay.

WOTC, on the other hand, has lost out on a hundred or more sales.


I just want to mention one other thing. Wizards of the Coast is a publisher of games. Card game product lines work very different than roleplaying game product lines.

When Hasbro bought WotC, they looked at the product lines (Magic $$$ and the D&D brand $$$), saw they were doing well, and wanted a piece of the action.

Hasbro is a TOY COMPANY with most of its experience in the 14 and younger market.

This decision has Hasbro written all over it. When you run a game publishing company, you can't expect the same revenue performance as most other publishers. The hobby just doesn't have that kind of cultural clout and I don't think ever will. It's a very niche market.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:


I thought that their Digital Initiative was supposed to supply their subscribers with the 4E rules at a mouse click, or did that never materialise?

If it never did, or if it did, but has had the plug pulled on it too, then yes, I would agree that it looks as if they are not supporting 4E too.

At Gencon 07, Scott Rouse stated that the PDFs would be made available to print product purchasers for "about the price of a cup of coffee." I was in the @#$# room when he said it. That went nowhere.

They ended up just posting watermarked PDFs for sale (at 70% of the hardcopy price). While that was far from an ideal solution, it was "good enough" in that at least there was some form of legal PDF access. And, thank goodness, no DRM. Granted, I wasn't going to pay those prices for anything other than the PHB, but there is a disabled player in my current gaming group who bought all of his books this way. Now he's SOL.

As for the DDI, as a (former) subscriber, I can confirm that there is no access to the full rulebooks. You can do searches for particular rules elements, but trying to look up, say, the combat rules? No dice.

The Exchange

veector wrote:


The fact that this decision has hurt them financially is no ones fault but their own. Did they make some lifelong fans because of it? Yes, I was one of them until they decided to take the game in a different direction.

Then you weren't really a "lifelong fan" then, were you? Those two sentences are inherently contradictory.

I agree with the points you're making but still...Just sayin'. :)

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

veector wrote:
What drives me crazy about the WotC fanboys is how they ignore history and blame everything on outside forces. How is my not playing 4th edition and opting for Pathfinder ruining their enjoyment of 4th edition?

Does it really surprise you that the most fervant supporters of 4e have no respect for (or knowledge of) what came before 4e in the game? They don't recognize WotC as lawful evil because it's simply not part of their game. And they're confused by Paizo's chaotic good tendencies since that's also gone, and are lumping them in with the only other chaotic alignment they know...chaotic evil. Anyway, you can't expect people who are ok with crapping on 35 years of D&D history to b the kind of people to look to the past when reflecting on the present.

Treebore the Ruby Lord wrote:
Its amazing to me how "blind" people can be about companies. A company screws over customers time and time again, but its OK, its the companies right to do what they do.

Yeah. It is perfectly within WotC's rights to be dicks, but it's also within every consumer's rights to not take it sitting down. It seems a lot of fanbois aren't seeing the forest for the trees here. No one's debating whether or not WotC can pull their own products from distribution;they're debating the level of dickishness the move indicates.


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Pat Payne wrote:
"Then why the hell couldn't they hit me, a freakin' untrained farmboy, when I was standing on a ledge with no cover a mere 30 feet away from them? Well?"

They were ordered to miss.

"Are they away?"

"They've just made the jump into hyperspace."

"Are you secure the homing becon is secure aboard their ship? I'm taking an aweful risk here Vader. This had better work."

Only way they could into hyperspace and get away is if they were alive and they'd only go to the rebel base if they felt they just barely got away and they need to get the plans to the rebels right away.

Not to mention that Stormtroopers are freaking awesome the entire rest of the movie series.

[/bunny trail]

You and your logic... grrr (shakes fist) :)


Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
veector wrote:


The fact that this decision has hurt them financially is no ones fault but their own. Did they make some lifelong fans because of it? Yes, I was one of them until they decided to take the game in a different direction.

Then you weren't really a "lifelong fan" then, were you? Those two sentences are inherently contradictory.

I agree with the points you're making but still...Just sayin'. :)

I'm a Pathfinder player... of course I'm not rational ;)

EDIT: As a side note, I really really wanted to like 4th Edition. I didn't read any previews and wanted the game to speak for itself. Unfortunately, it didn't speak to me. But whatever game you like, the OGL is always there for whomever wants to enjoy it and Wizards (the Wizards I remember) did that.


I just want a copy of my 'The Great Modron March' that I paid for... :( (My sympathy for those of you who had bought more than one or two pdfs)


Took a bit of work to send them a simple e-mail. For those who do not wish to waste time getting an account etc etc there, send an e-mail here:

dndinsider@wizards.com [copy+paste into your 'To:' line of your e-mail.]

Delete if necessary Gary - my intent here is to clearly provide a communication method that does not require wading through the account creation process there.

Matter of fact, I canned my account there dating back to May '04.


bugleyman wrote:


At Gencon 07, Scott Rouse stated that the PDFs would be made available to print product purchasers for "about the price of a cup of coffee." I was in the @#$# room when he said it. That went nowhere.

They ended up just posting watermarked PDFs for sale (at 70% of the hardcopy price). While that was far from an ideal solution, it was "good enough" in that at least there was some form of legal PDF access. And, thank goodness, no DRM. Granted, I wasn't going to pay those prices for anything other than the PHB, but I there is a disabled player in my gaming group who bought all of his books this way. Now he's SOL.

As for the DDI, as a (former) subscriber, I can confirm that there is no access to the full rulebooks. You can do searches for particular rules elements, but trying to look up, say, the combat rules? No dice.

Thanks. Didn't know that.

So, yeah, it seems as if they really saboutage themselves. Only hardcopies are now left to get legally.


bugleyman wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:


I thought that their Digital Initiative was supposed to supply their subscribers with the 4E rules at a mouse click, or did that never materialise?

If it never did, or if it did, but has had the plug pulled on it too, then yes, I would agree that it looks as if they are not supporting 4E too.

At Gencon 07, Scott Rouse stated that the PDFs would be made available to print product purchasers for "about the price of a cup of coffee." I was in the @#$# room when he said it. That went nowhere.

They ended up just posting watermarked PDFs for sale (at 70% of the hardcopy price). While that was far from an ideal solution, it was "good enough" in that at least there was some form of legal PDF access. And, thank goodness, no DRM. Granted, I wasn't going to pay those prices for anything other than the PHB, but I there is a disabled player in my gaming group who bought all of his books this way. Now he's SOL.

As for the DDI, as a (former) subscriber, I can confirm that there is no access to the full rulebooks. You can do searches for particular rules elements, but trying to look up, say, the combat rules? No dice.

:-?

Well if a lawsuit is apparently more important to the executives than maintaining PDF support even for their current line, then it makes me wonder what on earth's going on (and is a stake?) in this lawsuit?
If I were a Hasbro shareholder I would be starting to get VERY nervous.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Someone brought up a point on the terrible, horrible, n good, very addictive WotC thread that I hadn't considered before. Blind or visually-impaired gamers are able to use document readers to use digital gaming material, but now have no legal options since WotC (or anyone else for that matter) are producing RPG sourcebooks in Braille. Next they'll require all the brick & mortar gaming stores they are so adamant about supporting to remove all their handicapped parking spots?


Here is a copy of an e-mail I sent to WOTC's customer service:

Add me to the list of customers seriously angered by your companies actions. Why in the world could you not give a time frame before suspension? You know, say, "In one week we will be suspending all sales of our PDF's for an undetermined amount of time from all PDF providers. Please take this week to make all purchases you wish to make."

Why can't you now say, "We at WOTC realize our abrupt cessation of PDF sales was a disservice to our legitimate customers, so we are asking our PDF providers to reopen sales of our PDF's for one week to give our legitimate customers an opportunity to legally acquire any PDF's they desire to have. Thank you for your support and we apologize for any inconvenience we have caused."

This is what GOOD customer service is about.

For the record I have ceased playing and buying 4E, to the point that I will not participate in the May 23rd Game Day, or buy any WOTC/Hasbro products until your company decides to treat me, a legitimate and law abiding customer with enough consideration and respect to correct WOTC's actions with regards to the cessation of PDF sales. If that means I don't look at WOTC/Hasbro for 2 years because that is how long you take to make PDF's available again, so be it. I have plenty of other RPG companies I can support in the mean time, and in all liklihood I'lll be so entrenched in their system by the time WOTC fixes things I probably won't come back. I certainly won't be in any hurry to do so.


It seems to me that fighting piracy is just an excuse for pulling the PDFs for other reasons, since the move they made has precisely zero impact on piracy (well, it might increase it, but it certainly won't reduce it). Maybe WotC wants to set up its own PDF store and thought it would get more sympthy for pulling PDFs from established online distributors if it blamed the decision on piracy - who knows? If they had a store up and ready immediately upon pulling the PDFs from established distributors than it would be more difficult to credibly pin the blame for the decision on piracy.

A more malicious potential reason could be to scare GSL companies off the market by providing an example on how quickly, capriciously and abruptly WotC is willing to terminate contracts. Despite the credit they genuinely deserve for the OGL in the early 2000s, the new managment at WotC has now seemingly wanted to put the open-gaming genie back in the bottle for a few years. Doing this too quickly and directly would anger fans, so perhaps they thought it better to make a more restrictive GSL that they can terminate at will and to drag out its release with ridiculously long delays that would drive off or bankrupt 3PPs, yet not draw fan rage, since the GSL was 'still coming'. Of course, some 3PPs survived and adopted the GSL. The GSL can, of course, be terminated at any moment, but doing so would draw the ire of many a WotC customer. Maybe WotC thought it could scare/drive off the GSL-adopters out of the D&D-market by showing them on the not-so-important-for-WotC PDF market that the presumed goodwill and reasonableness that WotC would not just abruptly and capriciously pull a contract is actually misplaced and this would cause less anger among its fans then if they pulled the GSL outright.

That is an alternative scenario outlining possible WotC motives. The point is that we just don't know - we can only speculate on more or less malicious motives, but it sure does not seem to be piracy-related, unless the decision-makers at WotC had a collective stroke that somehow made them think pulling existing legitimate PDFs would somehow help to fight piracy, because seriously - how?!?! Unless, of course, they got so involved in the game they produce that they began believing in magic!


Jason Sonia wrote:

Recipe: Mucked-up RPG Company Soup

-- 1. Recreate a game system that was already successful, replacing it with a limited, narrower version of itself. Encourage newer generations by modeling it after visually stunning computer games, but without the graphics that provided the "wow factor" of those games. Alienate your mature, financially stable fan-base in doing so.

-- 2. Take the two most successful, longest running RPG magazines off the market entirely. Further alienate your established consumers and fans. Provide them with a digital alternative, but without the flair or finesse of the original.

-- 3. Try and "wow" the RPG community by making your tabletop product online compatible. However, DO NOT make the software compatible with all platforms. Further alienate players in doing so.

-- 4. Release a corporate license that all but destroys your working relationship with other, 3rd party publishes. Give them the simple ultimatium, "our way or the highway."

-- 5. When your consumers complain, criticize, or otherwise try to advice you this isn't encouraging them to buy your product, ignore them. In fact, write them off as a financially insecure cross-section of a much larger consumer base. Insist your decisions are clearly aimed at creating a better product, even if all indications point toward you attempting to corner the market in a manner not too dissimilar to the monopolies of old.

-- 6. Now, check your consumers' collective pulse. If one is discovered, please remove all of the digital files of your older products, further alienating long-standing fans. For extra flair, do this with little or no warning. Consumers that wanted older versions of your product be damned. State that this is done to curb piracy and file a few lawsuits. Ignore the fact that people were trying to "legally purchase" your product. In fact, ensure that the only way they can secure digital copies of your work is by piracy because you don't offer them yourself.
-- 6a. State this is done to encourage people to...

ROFL - Hilarious but so true!

Dark Archive

Treebore the Ruby Lord wrote:

Here is a copy of an e-mail I sent to WOTC's customer service:

Add me to the list of customers seriously angered by your companies actions. Why in the world could you not give a time frame before suspension? You know, say, "In one week we will be suspending all sales of our PDF's for an undetermined amount of time from all PDF providers. Please take this week to make all purchases you wish to make."

Why can't you now say, "We at WOTC realize our abrupt cessation of PDF sales was a disservice to our legitimate customers, so we are asking our PDF providers to reopen sales of our PDF's for one week to give our legitimate customers an opportunity to legally acquire any PDF's they desire to have. Thank you for your support and we apologize for any inconvenience we have caused."

This is what GOOD customer service is about.

For the record I have ceased playing and buying 4E, to the point that I will not participate in the May 23rd Game Day, or buy any WOTC/Hasbro products until your company decides to treat me, a legitimate and law abiding customer with enough consideration and respect to correct WOTC's actions with regards to the cessation of PDF sales. If that means I don't look at WOTC/Hasbro for 2 years because that is how long you take to make PDF's available again, so be it. I have plenty of other RPG companies I can support in the mean time, and in all liklihood I'lll be so entrenched in their system by the time WOTC fixes things I probably won't come back. I certainly won't be in any hurry to do so.

You don't mind if i use this as a template for my own email to them, do you?


DMcCoy1693 wrote:


Not to mention that Stormtroopers are freaking awesome the entire rest of the movie series.

And really good at hiding. And the dunces they put in fake armours to fool everyone - simply awesome.

Peruhain of Brithondy wrote:


We're now about 18 months into WotC's supposed digital revolution

You mean return to the Digital Dark Ages.

Peruhain of Brithondy wrote:


On the other hand, there may be a few 4e Greyhawkers out there who want the old modules for background info as they build their campaigns.

They're not supposed to. GH isn't points of light enough. Forget GH and play the new setting like you're supposed to. I mean, it's not just a good idea, it's the law, since they made getting GH stuff either quite hard or illegal.


And here is a copy of an email I've just sent to Wizards:

To whom it may concern:

I am greatly offended, angered and dismayed by Wizards of the Coast's recent orders to numerous online booksellers (chief among them Paizo and DriveThruStuff/One Book Shelf) to halt immediately their legal and authorized sales of Wizards of the Coast and TSR PDF offerings. I do not begrudge or challenge your right to do this, nor even the stricture that subsequent already-paid-for downloads were to be denied. I am angered at the unseemly haste and thourough lack of communication with your customers, many of whom are now bewildered by your actions. To this date, Wizards has not made an official explanation to the fans over the circumstances of the take down. I do not accept WizO_Trevor's posts on the official forums as such an explanation.

His response states that your takedown, done at an astonishingly neck-breaking speed (Gary Teeter of Paizo was apparently given all of an hour's notice to halt PDF sales), was to halt piracy. This is akin to closing the barn door after the horses have not only escaped, but returned to dismantle the barn with crowbars. If you had taken these actions a number of years ago, or even in the past year (when the high-profile piracy of the first Fourth Edition books was hitting the gamer news) Wizards's actions might seem more credible. However, now that those files are "in the wild", they will be traded with impunity by those with so little moral fibre as to steal. All Wizards has done is penalize us, the law-abiding. When one man runs over another with a car, the proper response is not to confiscate all cars. With the rash of high-profile shootings lately, the proper response is not to confiscate all guns. When illegally-produced PDFs of Wizard's intellectual property are being distributed, the proper response is not to deny access to legally-produced PDFs.

At best, the unseemly hast makes Wizards look like panicked fools. At worst, it makes them appear to be attempting to submerge the earlier editions of the Dungeons and Dragons family of games in favor of Fourth Edition. I am not, nor shall I most likely be a player of 4th Edition -- the game does not speak to me as previous editions did. This is not a fault in the game, but is my personal preference. However, with these actions today, that point is now moot.

As of today, I no longer consider myself a customer of Wizards of the Coast. If I find old TSR material that I wish to have, I will buy it from any of the fine second-hand shops either in the brick-and-mortar world or online. Instead, my money will now be spent with other fine RPG companies, who have a conception of the value of their customers. My account name on the Wizards website is MacrossSD. Please delete me from your system.

I'll leave you with this: Your company, Wizards of the Coast, back when it was still a company for gamers, bought an ailing TSR, brought to the brink of collapse by poor business decisions by the Blume brothers and then Lorraine Williams, including terminating licenses with Judges Guild (a long-standing partner of TSR's since the early days) and suing any fan who dared to post anything on the Internet devoted to the game, whether or not it directly challenged TSR's IP. With actions like the one two days ago, as well as other recent business decisions, Wizards is running the risk of following down the same path of plyer alienation as the post-Gygax TSR.

And I truly think that would be a shame.

Sincerely,
Patrick Payne

PS: I have also been dismayed by what appears to be a streak of favoritism amongst the moderators on the forums. There have been statements by those angered by the takedowns which have been censored (sometimes rightly, sometimes, in my opinion, wrongly) while a number of pro-Wizards posters have uttered very libellous statements, including accusing other companies of fraud (such as one I will append below), which have been allowed to stand without comment by the moderators. This speaks of a culture that goes by the adage "Marquis of Queensbury rules for you, we get to fight freestyle."

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18281233&postcount=837
Kindly read the last paragraphs, where he accuses Paizo and DriveThruStuff of "cheating" consumers willfully.


So, I really think WotC next move will be to shut down the 2e Campaign sites like Athas.org and spelljammer.org.

These sites offer free PDF updated (3.5) versions of the old 2e Campaigns.

Ive also noticed the almost hostile responses to folks upset by this move at the WotC site.

Do ya'll know what draws me to the Paizo guys? Maturity seems to reign here.

Eric


This site, and Piazza, are my two favourite RPG forums. Maturity and the acceptance of other viewpoints reign. The PDF-gate thread at WotC (sorry, had to use that once) amazed me in how poor the level of discourse was.

Do you think the people there are trolling, or truly that dedicated to a company?

A second question - why are their forums called gleemax?

Jon Brazer Enterprises

outlander78 wrote:
A second question - why are their forums called gleemax?

Its an inside joke having something to do with Magic the Gathering. No, I'm not kidding.


outlander78 wrote:

This site, and Piazza, are my two favourite RPG forums. Maturity and the acceptance of other viewpoints reign. The PDF-gate thread at WotC (sorry, had to use that once) amazed me in how poor the level of discourse was.

Do you think the people there are trolling, or truly that dedicated to a company?

A second question - why are their forums called gleemax?

Gleemax is apparently a reference from the Magic The Gathering collectible card game. I'm not sure why they would use a Magic: The Gathering reference for the name of the D&D forums but then I'm not sure why they would suddenly cancel all PDF sales of their products.


Can I copy this in a mail, Pat?


DMcCoy1693 wrote:
outlander78 wrote:
A second question - why are their forums called gleemax?
Its an inside joke having something to do with Magic the Gathering. No, I'm not kidding.

I think it's some inside joke referring to some "elder brain" or so.

Sovereign Court

Pat Payne wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Gary, the Post Monster General, said he had 1 hour's notice. One Hour.

Classic Stormtrooper tactics!

"These weren't sandpeople. Look at the blast marks. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so preci--"

"Then why the hell couldn't they hit me, a freakin' untrained farmboy, when I was standing on a ledge with no cover a mere 30 feet away from them? Well?"

"Yes, Luke, I've got nothing. (I wish I were still doing Murder By Death right about now...)"

1) Very, very funny. Especially since I am old enough to remember the all-star Murder by Death movie. One of my favorites.

2) Kudos for your Star Wars reference. Truly funny.

3) Unfortunately, I am referring to the "original" Stromtroopers. But the Star Wars version is just as well.

*still seething with consumer outrage, but pausing to laugh at your post.* Thanks Pat Payne!


Fuchs wrote:
Can I copy this in a mail, Pat?

Go right ahead. You may want to change some of it, just as bits are personal and might not reflect your own situation (for instance, I doubt you're "MacrossSD" on the boards :) ), but otherwise, no worries!

Sovereign Court

Fuchs wrote:
DMcCoy1693 wrote:
outlander78 wrote:
A second question - why are their forums called gleemax?
Its an inside joke having something to do with Magic the Gathering. No, I'm not kidding.
I think it's some inside joke referring to some "elder brain" or so.

Wasn't the young game designer who made his money on Magic the Gathering also the one who fronted the money to buy up TSR with it? Perhaps my TSR history is failing me...


Pax Veritas wrote:


*still seething with consumer outrage, but pausing to laugh at your post.* Thanks Pat Payne!

Glad to make your day, good sir :)


yoda8myhead wrote:
Someone brought up a point on the terrible, horrible, n good, very addictive WotC thread that I hadn't considered before. Blind or visually-impaired gamers are able to use document readers to use digital gaming material, but now have no legal options since WotC (or anyone else for that matter) are producing RPG sourcebooks in Braille. Next they'll require all the brick & mortar gaming stores they are so adamant about supporting to remove all their handicapped parking spots?

Some of the posters on ENWorld dismiss this in there "Anyone else doesn't care about this matter?" thread:

Rechan wrote:

I call BS.

As someone who is legally blind, and whose mother can barely see at all: PDFs mean jack as far as that is concerned. The disabled have been reading hardcover books, even via computer, before PDFs entered into the equation, thank you very much.

The Federation for the Blind either give you a V-Tech, or you're given a scanner and a voice program so you can lay a book down on the scanner and have the voice program reads it to you aloud.

And if we're talking visual impairments, a laptop with the PDF on there is not going to be very helpful, because laptops are hard to see; even with programs to enlarge the content on the screen, you will more than likely be hunched over like Quasimodo just to read the thing. And laptop screens are not kind to leaning in at that angle. Not to mention that, in order to increase the size of the content on the page so large in order to be read, it is vastly going to cut down on your ability to search the page to find the specific rule on that page. Something that the laptop touch pad is not going to be helpful at all.

So do not drag disabilities into a discussion where it doesn't apply, to make your case more sympathetic.


I didn't download my stuff in time, just lost access to 20+ ad&d pdfs.

It's stuff like this that makes you look like an idiot infront of your friends who just pirate their stuff to start with...

Good job Wizards.

[redacted—do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them.]


Nobody going with "Wotsuh matta you?"?


Huh. Didn't know the visually impaired were restricted to laptops. Dammit, oppression is everywhere. Who's keeping CPUs with huge monitors from them? Cuz I know the financial types have got them...

EDIT: Well, traffic here has finally slowed down...my posts ended up next to each other.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Huh. Didn't know the visually impaired were restricted to laptops. Dammit, oppression is everywhere. Who's keeping CPUs with huge monitors from them? Cuz I know the financial types have got them...

EDIT: Well, traffic here has finally slowed down...my posts ended up next to each other.

Waiting for the next hammer blow ^_^ - yoinking magazine PDFs...


Turin the Mad wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Huh. Didn't know the visually impaired were restricted to laptops. Dammit, oppression is everywhere. Who's keeping CPUs with huge monitors from them? Cuz I know the financial types have got them...

EDIT: Well, traffic here has finally slowed down...my posts ended up next to each other.

Waiting for the next hammer blow ^_^ - yoinking magazine PDFs...

~grimaces~ I think that WotC will try that sooner than later. Poor Paizo.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I feel the need to give WOTC some props for this move; it has provided me with 3 days' worth of entertainment.

-Skeld

/Not worried.
//Downloaded my ODD PDFs from Paizo a looong time ago.


Skeld wrote:

I feel the need to give WOTC some props for this move; it has provided me with 3 days' worth of entertainment.

-Skeld

/Not worried.
//Downloaded my ODD PDFs from Paizo a looong time ago.

We are NOT here to entertain you! Do you hear that! Stop laughing at me! Stop it!

~GRINS~


Skeld wrote:
I feel the need to give WOTC some props for this move;

.... as it resulted in free Exalted pdfs for everyone!

Oh, and some sale with that Paizo-thing, I dunno....

;p

Peace,

tfad


Well, I certainly missed the boat on this one. Darn being busy planting flowers! :(

Luckily I have my complete Planescape book collection from the Nineties. I had been slowly collecting the PDFs from Paizo because they were a lot easier as a format to access. I have now backed them all up, since they will not be offered again. I had hoped to eventually get the entire Planescape set on PDF, but at least I got the box sets, so that is something.

I had always held out hope that WotC would offer the 3E/3.5E books in a (reasonably priced) PDF form as a way to mend fences with some of their former customers. I can see now this will never happen. I still shake my head about this descision, and I wish there had been at least 30 days notice so I could have picked up some of the PDFs I wanted.

Reading the Gleemax thread (sad to see that place hasn't changed much in the six months since I went over there) I can see that the 4e apologists are trying to shift blame to Paizo. As a certain metallic dragon seems to think: We are just 'nerdragers' buying stuff to show our displeasure with WotC. Laughable really. But so it goes.

I have always been a defender of folks who want to do their own thing with regards to editon play. Bugleyman, it is good to see you back again. You don't have to play Pathfinder to hang around, lots of people don't.

I don't understand why WotC feels the need to punish ME, the legitimate PDF user. I will NEVER download an illegal copy of someone else's work. Intellectual theft is STILL theft. You might as well hold the author at gunpoint and pick his pockets. You can equivocate all you want about how it 'helps' sales, but the fact is someone spent a lot of time and energy making that piece of work, and you are stealing it. It's not cool. That being said, I have been tempted to try it by this news. I have reaffirmed my anti-pirating position after some soul searching, but I will say for a few minutes I was tempted. Damn you Hasbro for making theft the only possible way of obtaining something I desire. I will now go without it, but you have burned the final bridge with me.

To the 4E players: I don't blame you, or your game. You can't help it if descisions are being made at corporate that reflect poorly on you, and I feel bad that people like that dragon fellow are the face people like me see when we cruise over to Gleemax. I don't blame the first ring of WotC developers and office workers. They have about as much control over this as I have control over what my boss does (i.e not much) yet they have to weather the stinging internet criticism. I blame the suits. Wherever they be.

/rant

Sovereign Court

Roman wrote:
Jason Sonia wrote:

Recipe: Mucked-up RPG Company Soup

-- 1. Recreate a game system that was already successful, replacing it with a limited, narrower version of itself. Encourage newer generations by modeling it after visually stunning computer games, but without the graphics that provided the "wow factor" of those games. Alienate your mature, financially stable fan-base in doing so.

-- 2. Take the two most successful, longest running RPG magazines off the market entirely. Further alienate your established consumers and fans. Provide them with a digital alternative, but without the flair or finesse of the original.

-- 3. Try and "wow" the RPG community by making your tabletop product online compatible. However, DO NOT make the software compatible with all platforms. Further alienate players in doing so.

-- 4. Release a corporate license that all but destroys your working relationship with other, 3rd party publishes. Give them the simple ultimatium, "our way or the highway."

-- 5. When your consumers complain, criticize, or otherwise try to advice you this isn't encouraging them to buy your product, ignore them. In fact, write them off as a financially insecure cross-section of a much larger consumer base. Insist your decisions are clearly aimed at creating a better product, even if all indications point toward you attempting to corner the market in a manner not too dissimilar to the monopolies of old.

-- 6. Now, check your consumers' collective pulse. If one is discovered, please remove all of the digital files of your older products, further alienating long-standing fans. For extra flair, do this with little or no warning. Consumers that wanted older versions of your product be damned. State that this is done to curb piracy and file a few lawsuits. Ignore the fact that people were trying to "legally purchase" your product. In fact, ensure that the only way they can secure digital copies of your work is by piracy because you don't offer them yourself.
-- 6a. State this is done to...

If I may.........

...five more ingredients for Jason Sonia'sRecipe: Mucked-up RPG Company Soup:

-- 7. Abandon 30+ years of history and traditions, and have so-called designers "re-concept" key parts of the game into an incoherent mess. Then, kill the Forgotten Realms because, hey, you can't think of any new ideas can you? Next, demonstrate to your "former" fan-base that their feedback amounts to a red dragon shitting in a cheezy flash video, and pretend consumers providing constructive feedback are simply "trolls."

-- 8. Borrow the IP of the game's name, and create, in name only a game that replaces the minis-game you have now stopped supporting. And begin making less minis, cheaper quality minis with bad paint jobs then sell fewer at higher prices. Make sure you add a big "butt-head" to the tieflings because you think that's "kewl". Next, make your new game require special "power cards" or somesuch, but be sure to shut down Ema who created them better for free than the ones you're planning to release for unnecessary money next month. Sit back and relax becuase you just let the same guys who worked on the star wars rpg/minis game just re-copy their idea for your new game hidden under the traditional game's title, because hey - lightning doesn't strike twice now does it?

-- 9. Be real obvious that you were dragging your feet releasing an ironclad "GSL" so that you make 3PPs squirm a little, at least you can make them lose profit while they wait around for you - maybe you can get some to need to go out of business!. Make sure you tighten your grasp Grand Moff Tarkin - cause you wouldn't want entire star systems to slip through your finger tips now would ya? Then, fire great game designers (last Thanksgiving) because we all know you do that with great regularity.

-- 10. Make long-time consumers feel like they can never in good conscience support your company again, ever. Make your former loyal fans feel that you have gone beyond reprehensible, make them literally sick over your incompetence, incoherency, apparent greed, rejection of fan base and traditions, and your complete disregard for the .pdfs that make the game accessible to so many all across the world (like soldiers in iraq or those far from game stores), and those who live under varying economic conditions (because of their affordability). Act like you don't realize that these pdfs also contained the history of our game! Pretend your sudden Stormtrooper tactics, incompetence, and disrespect for consumers will be forgotten. [i]Wow - now that's actually some good fantasy role-playing!

11. Make the news convey that because your precious PHBII isn't selling as well as you'd like, you needed to resort to removing 30+ years of game legacy. Never ask the question, "Who the hell needs a PHBII anyhow?" Avoid the reality that you are selling snake oil and avoid admitting that maybe people aren't buying it just because it sucks.


My new weapons: Mace of Disassociated Mechanicist Smiting and Dagger of Paizo-blamers Slaying.


Patrick Curtin wrote:
As a certain metallic dragon seems to think: We are just 'nerdragers' buying stuff to show our displeasure with WotC. Laughable really.

I laughed hard at this:

Titanium Dragon on the WotC boards wrote:

Paizo isn't a way to help the industry. Its a way to hurt it.

People need to understand reality.

Those companies aren't helping the RPG industry at all. They are cancers.

I'm sorry to re-post it here, but I wanted an online record I could search for later and I figured not everyone here would have the fortitude to stomach sifting through some of the posts over there. The post above that billed this guy as a libel-case was bang on.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to get cancer from my Guide to Korvosa....

;p

Peace,

tfad


tallforadwarf wrote:

...

Titanium Dragon on the WotC boards wrote:

Paizo isn't a way to help WotC. Its a way to hurt it.

People need to understand my opinion that 4E should be the only choice available.

Those companies aren't helping WotC at all. They are too good of competitors.

...

Bold edited to clarify the original message.


Patrick Curtin wrote:
tallforadwarf wrote:

...

Titanium Dragon on the WotC boards wrote:

Paizo isn't a way to help WotC. Its a way to hurt it.

People need to understand my opinion that 4E should be the only choice available.

Those companies aren't helping WotC at all. They are too good of competitors.

...
Bold edited to clarify the original message.

These people remind me of when I frequented the MacrossWorld (www.macrossworld.com, if you're a fan of the show :) ) message boards. We used to get these Robotech defenders who had this asinine idea that if Harmony Gold (sadly, the rights-holder for the series in America, and the reason I'll never get to see a R1 release of Do You Remember Love [thank God for Blu-Ray!]) acknolwdged and started releasing the original three series that made up Robotech in their original format, that Robotech would vanish, that some Gestapo would come and rip the Robotech tapes/discs out of their hands. It degenerated into flame wars and the exact kind of name-calling that Titanium Dragon is exhibiting.

"Wah, wah, there's not enough room in the RPG industry for us, therefore if Pathfinder thrives, then 4E is doomed!"

Liberty's Edge

tallforadwarf wrote:
Patrick Curtin wrote:
As a certain metallic dragon seems to think: We are just 'nerdragers' buying stuff to show our displeasure with WotC. Laughable really.

I laughed hard at this:

Titanium Dragon on the WotC boards wrote:

Paizo isn't a way to help the industry. Its a way to hurt it.

People need to understand reality.

Those companies aren't helping the RPG industry at all. They are cancers.

I'm sorry to re-post it here, but I wanted an online record I could search for later and I figured not everyone here would have the fortitude to stomach sifting through some of the posts over there. The post above that billed this guy as a libel-case was bang on.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to get cancer from my Guide to Korvosa....

;p

Peace,

tfad

If only I could summon infernal dire apes. If only,....to fling dooky at yon varlet.


Their reaction makes me wonder if they even understand how digital stuff works -- at all. Do they think that the pirated copies are PDFs that were sold off the sites, and that there is therefore a finite number of them -- that, like actual books, it's impossible to make a copy without a huge printing infrastructure, and that stopping sales here will actually deprive the pirates of the ability to sell/distribute more pirated copies?

I hope that's not their reasoning, but it seems to fit with their actions. I wonder if they know that it's possible to type a letter in Word, say, and then make infinite copies of it? That stopping sales of PDFs will not prevent some scoundrel somewhere from scanning the book and distributing effectively-infinite copies thereof?

In short, is this entire hoopla because of a failure to grasp the way information can be copied and distributed in an electronic format?

If it is, then that would really alarming.

(It also inclines me to support Pathfinder more -- I wish my customer would hurry up and pay for his latest commission so that I can preorder a copy now.)


Heathansson wrote:
If only I could summon infernal dire apes. If only,....to fling dooky at yon varlet.

Woo! Woo!

Dark Archive

Initiate hostile takeover of WOTC! Then we'll see changes!

Inspired by Barbarians at the Gate

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