Darvon's page

"Don't just say X can be done, explain how it can be done." I'm willing, I'm just not sure what you're referring too?

Spontaneous casting is definitely weaker when it comes to the wizard spell list. It's even arguably weaker with the cleric spell list in 3.5 due to the plethora of splat books and massive spell list. In pathfinder the divine spell list is much smaller however, and out of that small list there are exceedingly few must-have spells. In the specific case of pathfinder divine casters, spontaneous casting is superior for this reason as well as the fact that many of these must have spells are ones you wont regularly cast, and instead just take up slots.

In my opinion, the reason for long duration status effects that can't be removed with dispel magic or lesser restoration is simply to make the party weaker for the duration of that particular combat and then use party resources to cure afterwards.

A fight that couldn't be won unless the party had a break enchantment or full restoration prepared and on ready to go isn't something I've encountered before.

Level 10 oracle damage vs. switch hit ranger w/ instant enemy? I said "slightly less", but I'll dig up the character sheets when I get home.

It's true enough that the druid does miss a few of the nice cleric utility spells, but the ones you've listed are often those you get cured of at the temple back at town. Regardless, the druid note was an aside.

The Oracle on the other hand completely dominates the cleric. The cleric spell list is extremely limited, and a lot of the time you're preparing spells 'just in case' that you wont use most of the time. The oracle losses nothing by restricting the spell list, and gain effective spells per day because spell slots aren't wasted on 'just in cases' anymore. If the only thing oracle had going for it over cleric was spontaneous casting it would already be a mechanically superior class.

On top of this, clerics get basically zero class features while oracle mysteries are extremely strong, even for a class which didn't get full spellcasting. As mentioned, battle domain turns the watered down pf cleric back into a psuedo-codzilla and other mysteries make your oracle a full cleric that also puts blaster wizards to shame.

Alternatively you can just take a cleric-style mystery and embarrass the support caster cleric back home to retire and become a farmer.

Unless you're playing a healer for flavour reasons, you should give it a skip during combat. Until you reach level 12 and gain the Heal spell, a monsters single attack is larger than the size of your heal, let alone when they full attack. Mechanically speaking you're better off using your spells to bring it down faster or just contributing damage with a 2h weapon and power attack.

Pathfinder Cleric Handbook

Oracle 20

(Clerics) no longer have to waste spells on curing hit point damage so now they have more spells to buff and remove status affects.

Healing was never something clerics should have done in combat with the exception of the Heal spell, or possibly a rare emergency cure critical. Healing should be done out of combat with CLW wands, regardless of party makeup. (15g heals 5.5hp damage)

Casting buffs once combat has started is bad unless they are quickened, or effect the entire party. Pathfinder clerics can't realistically do either of these things (excepting divine favour at level 9+).

Removing status effects is something you might do once day, and could be done just as well by the druid who is ripping it up in melee in bear form with his pet lion.

A pathfinder cleric is just an embarrassingly underpowered druid.

From my experience, even a Battle Oracle is going to be dishearteningly less accurate and powerful than your full BAB classes.

When I played one (level 8-15) it was outputting similar damage as the party rogue (on average. TWF sneak attack means you spend longer positioning) and only slightly less than the switch-hitting ranger (even with favored enemy). From my experience, battle oracle is getting close to a 3.5 cleric who doesn't abuse nightsticks.

Clerics have always had a weak spell list (compared to a wizard/sorcerer), the reason they were effective is that they could bolster their spells with divine metamagic, and buff themselves to contribute in combat in melee.

Not having divine metamagic in pathfinder seriously hampers what effectiveness they had in the pure spellcasting department. All the buff spells were nerfed so melee effectiveness is greatly reduced, and these nerfed buffs are hit again by the lack of persistant spell.

As additional minor points, clerics now need to multiclass or spend a feat to get their armour proficiency, and the cleric domain powers took a beating: No more free feats or swift action freedom of movements.

The only thing pathfinder clerics gained over 3.5 clerics is the ability to use turn undead as an out-of-combat cure light wounds wand in exchange for actually turning undead.

Pathfinder clerics are basically druids that can't shapechange or summon an animal companion.

Pathfinder clerics are basically terrible at everything forever. Oracles make better clerics than an actual cleric does, and they get extra bonuses on top to make the comparison even more one sided.

On top of that, Battle mystery is probably the strongest of the lot, so if you want to play a melee cleric you'll be flying high as a Battle Oracle.

The Exta Revelation feat, as mentioned, is often worthwhile (especially if your DM allows for retraining). The battle revelations are usually stronger than a corresponding melee feat.

Protip: Take a two handed weapon and use power attack. 1 handed weapons are a trap for people unfamiliar with the rules, and the pathfinder -1 attack +3 damage ratio means power attack is the optimal choice 99% of the tmie.

I've said it before I'll say it again, buy multiple guns- enchant the ammo.

This, plus playing the gunslinger as a switch hitter should cover all bases.

If they add some type of precision damage to the class it'll be on par with a ranger.

I feel like I'm reading a thread from an alternate universe where everything is back to front.

The only time pathfinder characters are stronger than 3.5 characters is if you're playing core only with non-casters.

All the best spells got nerfed in pathfinder, and 3.5 had so many splat books that the power creep became a power sprint-off-a-cliff.

I agree with both of you. :)

You're right of course. There was still the occasional build though that took 'greater' even if it wasn't needed as a prereq (focused spellcaster conjuration with all those delicious save vs. suck spells).

Re: Deathcon

I was refering to 3.5 were there was a plethora of alternatives. In core Pathfinder, sure, there's like 2 caster feats so what are you going to do? :)

Mystic Theurge can be made playable (read: not much worse than a single class caster) if you minmax the hell out of it, have access to 3.5 feats, and start the campaign at around level 10.

So short answer, no it's not really viable in your case unless it's a monty haul campaign.

+2 was only in 3.0, it was changed to +1 in 3.5 because it was way too brutal.

Even with spell focus being 'just' +1 to DC, it's still a strong enough feat that it is common in 3.5 charop caster builds.

Anything strong enough to make the cut in a 3.5 caster build is practically godlike by pathfinder standards.

Our group calls it d&d unless there's a need to differentiate between 3.5 and pathfinder.

If I have a 12 Str fighter, one hand wielding a longsword with Weapon Specialization, that then gets str damage down to -3, am I dealing

1d8-1 (-3 + 2)

or

1d8+2 (all str penalties negated by the virtue of having WS added after the fact).

Flawed analogy. Weapon damage doesn't have a bottom cap of +1.

Super cheesy, and I wouldn't allow it if I was the DM, but for your consideration in the unlikely event it hadn't occurred to you already.

With -1 hit +1 dmg being considered a valid trade with ranged damage, statistically it's beneficial to use a huge longbow.

Large Longbow (2d6)
-2 hit, + 2.5 dmg

Huge Longbow (3d6)
-4 hit, + 6 dmg

Arguably a Gargantuan Longbow would do 4d8 damage (based on scaling a tiny 2d6 weapon up twice) and gain -6 hit, +13.5 damage.

Obviously double the damages for vital strike.

(the) balance between Wizard and Sorcerer is seriously tilted toward the Sorc ... in 3.5

Ways to tell a player who has never visited a CO board no.1, lol

everytime a wizard casts pure blast spells their Int score needs to drop by one. It's true, it's a little known fact, but absolutely true.

lol, I will vouch for this :)

I didn't download my stuff in time, just lost access to 20+ ad&d pdfs.

It's stuff like this that makes you look like an idiot infront of your friends who just pirate their stuff to start with...

Good job Wizards.

[redacted—do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them.]

Read the thread*, but still hold that the news domains are weak (both flavour and power level). I'd be happy if it was made an official option that you could choose to use either use 3.5 domains or pathfinder domains with your clerics. I'll be house ruleing to that effect regardless, but it's always nicer when you don't have to resort to that.

* Arrived here via a google search 'pathfinder rpg cleric domains suck' ;)

P.S Now that domains are weak, and divine power gives haste and luck bonuses instead of BAB, the Pathfinder 'Holy Warrior' subtype is a no brainer for core-only players.

If you want to play d&d with a totally overhauled magic system maybe you should be looking at 4e? Personally I'll stick with Vancian spellcasting, thanks.

Melbourne represent.

It's all about picking up swag from mind games then heading ducking into Section 8 (a back alley cafe) to read through it. :)

Yup, it's crickets.

I want to know how crickets always know to start chirping at exactly the right dramatic moment. :)

Khezial Tahr wrote:

People do not write books about them.

Ever read The Cleric Quintet by R.A. Salvatore. It's five books about a cleric.

I hadn't... Or any of the other cleric books mentioned in this thread.

DM / Cleric Player represent. :P

I always feel left out in conversations with forum members sporting their shiny [xxx subscriber] tags. I buy a fair bit of stuff direct from Paizo's online store, and I have a (FLGS) subscription to both Dungeon and Dragon. I even got them to stock Paizo's 'Deck of many things' (I didn't want to pay postage to Australia for it - lol).

When do I get some cool tags?! :P

- Adventures sorted by starting Level -

That's the main thing for me, if that's there I'll be happy regardless of whatever else you do :)

Edit:
Just thinking about it - Sorting the fluff articles by campaign setting would be nice as well.

I'd like to see the rest of the modrons too, but I'd prefer to see them in the magazine. We'll see if we can pull that off.

<3

Just stopping by to show some Modron love.

I absolutely love all the new Planescape content in Dragon and Dungeon during recent months, and Return of the Modrons in #354 is easily my favorite article/art in ages.

Keep up the awesome work guys :D

P.S I'd so totally buy a poster of the #354 cover art ;)

P.P.S If you find someone to write a Formian vs Modron adventure I'll buy two copies that month to show my appreciation. lol