Hey all I was wondering how do you make a good marshal without taking levels in bard or another class.
I usually pride myself on the fact I can make fairly lethal NPCs where the PCs have to change tactics from spend your spells and special abilities (or they just use all of them....)
Anyway long story short I am wondering about how to make a good marshal beyond redonk stats ect.
As per the theme I was thinking reach weapons, and maybe the feat which allows you to make an opponent stop moving after an attack of opportunity and the goad feat.
It seams like something a party leader would do.
I assume the PRPG rules?
What level?
What's the party?
Hey all I was wondering how do you make a good marshal without taking levels in bard or another class.
I usually pride myself on the fact I can make fairly lethal NPCs where the PCs have to change tactics from spend your spells and special abilities (or they just use all of them....)
Anyway long story short I am wondering about how to make a good marshal beyond redonk stats ect.
As per the theme I was thinking reach weapons, and maybe the feat which allows you to make an opponent stop moving after an attack of opportunity and the goad feat.
It seams like something a party leader would do.
I am not clear on what you're asking.
I was wondering how do you make a good marshal without taking levels in bard or another class.
OK, so, you don't levels in bard or another class. So no bard, no anything else, right?
That means you won't have any class levels in any class?
I usually pride myself on the fact I can make fairly lethal NPCs
So is this an NPC then?
Anyway long story short I am wondering about how to make a good marshal beyond redonk stats ect.
I would suggest using the Marshall class, but I am not sure whether you want any class levels or not.
Are you using the Miniatures Handbook in your campaign?
And what does "Redonk stats ect" mean?
As per the theme I was thinking reach weapons, and maybe the feat which allows you to make an opponent stop moving after an attack of opportunity and the goad feat.
It seams like something a party leader would do.
Reach weapons mean lower AC. Goading enemies to attack you and stopping them right next to you both sound like the kinds of things someone would do only if they have great AC, so take that into consideration when you decide between reach weapons and shields.
Reach weapons also mean you're reatreating all over the battlefield with 5' steps just so you can hit your oppoenents.
Retreating around the battlefield is not terribly leader-ish.
Not that you can't do it, but it sounds like you may be creating artificial weaknesses, like goading with low (or semi-low) AC.
As a general rule, when deciding on a build, it's wise to find abilities that complement each other instead of working against each other - unless you're simply doing it for RP reasons.
But if this is a PC you're making, it's best to let the rest of the players know when you're making a deliberately weak character (one who has abilities at odds with other abilities) - some players dislike gaming when their own character are at extra risk because someone else in the party is deliberately weak, and using up their resources.
Hey all I was wondering how do you make a good marshal without taking levels in bard or another class.
I usually pride myself on the fact I can make fairly lethal NPCs where the PCs have to change tactics from spend your spells and special abilities (or they just use all of them....)
Anyway long story short I am wondering about how to make a good marshal beyond redonk stats ect.
As per the theme I was thinking reach weapons, and maybe the feat which allows you to make an opponent stop moving after an attack of opportunity and the goad feat.
It seams like something a party leader would do.
I've got a player that does a marshal.
Max out Dex and Cha (Obviously), Str & Con next, Int and Wis last.
If you want to do the reach weapon, go with the maximum armor you can get that maxes out your dex (mithral is a good choice). Give him a reach weapon, and make sure he's a large character (you'll see why soon).
Give him Combat Reflexes, give him Large and In Charge feat (From Draconomicon and, I think, races of stone?). Large and In Charge is only takeable by large or larger creatures. When they hit someone with an attack of opportunity, they stop the persons movement, and move them back 5 feet. Give him a large polearm, and he's got a 15 foot reach. Then give him spiked armor, and he can threaten 15 foot, 10 foot, and 5 foot.
For auras :
AC Boost
Dex based skill/reflex boost
Flanking Boost
Those three seem to be the best 3 to have. AC until his followers can flank the pc's, then switch the flanking boost.
my 2c
Has anyone done a PRPG Marshall ?
I'd love to see one.
Has anyone used marshal in PFRPG?
Does it stand up on it's own? In 3.5 many found it sub optimal.
If it needs to be tweaked what are some options? I've seen it house ruled to 6 skill points per level in one game, and I've heard of others that give marshals bonus combat and/or leadership feats.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to reduce the "dead level" issue with the class?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b
Briefly had a marshall in a PbP. He seemed a bit under-powered and so game him fighter BAB progression, as a martial-type character. But he wasn't around long so I don't know if that might have disproportionate impact at higher levels.
Thanks for the feedback!
I don't think I've ever seen a single class marshal in play. They seem to get multi-classed with combat classes on the rare occasions they get played.
Marshal's aren't too powerful in a standard game, so with PFRPG they'll lag behind a little further.
As Aubrey said, boosting their BAB (and subsequently their HD if you're using PF) is a good start. It may just be me, but they still seem pretty weak after that, so I'd be happy to boost them further. An easy way might be to say that they gain the benifits of all their minor auras at once, rather than having to switch. I would also consider boosting the rate in which their major aura's improve (a +4 bonus at 20th level isn't really much when you consider a paladin's aura's can grant total immunities and thats just a secondary calss feature for them). Again, just me, but I'd probably go for somthing like this
1st Level - Skill Focus, Minor Aura
2nd Level - Major Aura +1
3rd Level - Grant Move Action (1/Day)
4th Level - Major Aura +2
5th Level - Minor Aura Boost (X2)
6th Level - Major Aura +3
7th Level - Grant Move Action (2/Day)
8th Level - Major Aura +4
9th Level - Minor Aura Boost (X3)
10th Level - Major Aura +5
11th Level - Grant Standard Action (3/Day)
12th Level - Major Aura +6
13th Level - Minor Aura Boost (X4)
14th Level - Major Aura +7
15th Level - Grant Standard Action (4/Day)
16th Level - Major Aura +8
17th Level - Minor Aura Boost (X5)
18th Level - Major Aura +9
19th Level - Grant Full-Round Action (5/Day)
20th Level - Major Aura +10
The "Minor Aura Boost" entires are to show how many minor auras the marshal would be able to activate at once. In addition, the marshal gains the ability to grant more than move actions at higher levels. In retrospect this version does seem a bit powerful on paper, but with a class like this appearences can be quite deceptive.
Cool.
The class features listed above would be in addition to full BAB and d10 HD I gather.
I would suggest the following, I'm toying with it for my campaign...
.
.
.
Level, BAB, Fort, Ref, Will, Special, Minor Known, Major Known
1st, +1, +2, +0, +2, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Minor Aura, 1, 0
2nd, +2, +3, +0, +3, Major Aura (+1), 1, 1
3rd, +3, +3, +1, +3, Weapon Focus (Primary Weapon), 2, 1
4th, +4, +4, +1, +4, Grant move action 1/day, 2, 1
5th, +5, +4, +1, +4, Bonus Feat (Combat/Fighter), 3, 2
6th, +6, +5, +2, +5, Dazzling Display, 3, 2
7th, +7, +5, +2, +5, Major Aura (+2), 4, 2
8th, +8, +6, +2, +6, Grant move action 2/day, 4, 2
9th, +9, +6, +3, +6, Leadership, 5, 3
10th, +10, +7, +3, +7, Bonus Feat (Combat/Fighter), 5, 3
11th, +11, +7, +3, +7, Stunning Defense, 6, 3
12th, +12, +8, +4, +8, Grant move action 3/day, 6, 3
13th, +13, +8, +4, +8, Greater Weapon Focus (Primary Weapon), 7, 4
14th, +14, +9, +4, +9, Major Aura (+3), 7, 4
15th, +15, +9, +5, +9, Bonus Feat (Combat/Fighter), 8, 4
16th, +16, +10, +5, +10, Grant move action 4/day, 8, 4
17th, +17, +10, +5, +10, Deadly Strike, 9, 5
18th, +18, +11, +6, +11, Bonus Feat (Combat/Fighter), 9, 5
19th, +19, +11, +6, +11, Bonus Feat (Combat/Fighter), 10, 5
20th, +20, +12, +6, +12, Grant move action 5/day Major Aura (+4), 10, 5
Summary :
Gave them fighter progression on BAB, access to a few fighter only feats (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). They can get a feat with a requirement of Fighter level N as if a fighter of their level (but only with these feats). They also get some existing feats, dazzling display (which fits the character concept), Leadership, and the Deadly Strike tree (Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Greater Weapon Focus, Deadly Strike). Finally, I gave them more minors known, and gave them 5 major's at 18th instead of 20th. Obviously, I'll need to create some more minor and major auras to round out the class, still working on those.
Ok, the flaming and complaining about my mods can now commence. :)
I take it you were aiming for fairly combat oriented class. It seems pretty well put together, but it strikes me as almost a fighter variant. I've seen marshal/fighter characters I liked in 3.5, but I'm not sure I want the marshal this inherently focused on personal combat IMG.
It's cool to see the marshal getting some love though. :)
I take it you were aiming for fairly combat oriented class. It seems pretty well put together, but it strikes me as almost a fighter variant. I've seen marshal/fighter characters I liked in 3.5, but I'm not sure I want the marshal this inherently focused on personal combat IMG.
It's cool to see the marshal getting some love though. :)
Well, I've had 3 people play the marshal, and their buff's are very, very effective. Even at high levels.
What I've seen in my games though, is the Marshal has about as much offensive capability as a sorcerer who's got amnesia. No spells, and while he can sometimes hit, he doesn't do much damage or have any combat flourish. So, I did try to beef up his fighting credentials.
I think the dazzling display fits the class perfectly. :) I wish they had more feats like that.
Likewise, the 3.X Marshal class has diminishing returns; once you've picked up the minor auras you want, you might as well move on to another class.
I have to agree. I've seen several players dip into marshal, but I've only seen one PC with more than 2 levels, and marshal sees some decent use in our games.
Hmmm, how about these for updated auras for PF?
Minor Auras
Motivate Caution Bonus to CMD
Motivate Martial Flair Bonus to CMB
Major Auras
Spell Ward Aura Grant allies Spell Resistance at 10+Bonus
The spell resistance might be too powerful, since it can grant spell resistance 11 at 2nd level. It's not so bad at higher levels, but it'll make using any magic at all on the party hard until then.
Assuming you're using the +4 bonus at 20th level progression, maybe somthing along the lines of SP 7 + Double the bonus
The spell resistance might be too powerful, since it can grant spell resistance 11 at 2nd level. It's not so bad at higher levels, but it'll make using any magic at all on the party hard until then.
Assuming you're using the +4 bonus at 20th level progression, maybe somthing along the lines of SP 7 + Double the bonus
Actually,
I've been thinking about it, and I don't think it's much of any use as an aura. It might be useful as is at low levels, but after about level 8, it's useless, since most enemy spellcasters will be needing to roll only a 4+ to bypass it. Even giving it to them at 2nd level, an enemy spellcaster would need to roll a 9+ (assuming the spellcaster is roughly the same level as the characters), and the roll only goes down from there.Even with your suggestion, it starts out with an enemy needing a 7+ and eventually a 2+ at level 20. Not sure it's worth it.
I've had something of an idea. It will be very raw, so bear with me. Also, I give permission for others to take the idea and modify it. (I doubt I could really stop it, but this way no one has to ask.)
The Marshall is something of a different themed Bard. And as such it should focus on it's buffing. Currently it is kind of weak in that role, but using the modified one presented earlier can be abuseable. (Picture a succubus/incubus modified Marshall.)
So, keep everything as is.
Add in some bonus feats as a Fighter (maybe not Fighter only feats).
And add in the ability to activate addition auras as a standard action for a round.
Example: A Marshall can keep 1 minor and 1 major active. For 1 round, he can use a standard action to activate a second minor aura. Maybe at higher levels extend it to include major auras - or at least choose between them.
This will keep him from greatly overshadowing the Bard, and yet give him a little oomph.
I've had something of an idea. It will be very raw, so bear with me. Also, I give permission for others to take the idea and modify it. (I doubt I could really stop it, but this way no one has to ask.)
The Marshall is something of a different themed Bard. And as such it should focus on it's buffing. Currently it is kind of weak in that role, but using the modified one presented earlier can be abuseable. (Picture a succubus/incubus modified Marshall.)
So, keep everything as is.
Add in some bonus feats as a Fighter (maybe not Fighter only feats).
And add in the ability to activate addition auras as a standard action for a round.
Example: A Marshall can keep 1 minor and 1 major active. For 1 round, he can use a standard action to activate a second minor aura. Maybe at higher levels extend it to include major auras - or at least choose between them.
This will keep him from greatly overshadowing the Bard, and yet give him a little oomph.
Well,
I think the idea behind the marshall is low boosts, but no limit on how long they last. The bard get's much better buffs, but, he has them a limited time per day. So, I am ok with the fact that the Marshal has lesser buffs than the Bard. He's not a bard, and he's a different type of animal. His thing is keeping troops motivated through a war, not through a skirmish. From marching to the fight, fighting, and then after the fight. So I'm not sure if I, personally, would like him to be doing buffs as good as the bard (like multiple aura effects, as suggested).
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When buffing the class up, you'll have to choose whether to make it more of a fighter (as some of the above suggestions have done) or more of a buffer / leader.
There's no real issue of stepping on the Bard's toes, even if it ends up buffing better than bard song, because the Bard's specialty isn't being 'best' at function A, B or C, but being capable of doing almost anything, and even a Marshall who can outbuff the Bard still isn't going to be casting any arcane spells, or any arcane *healing* spells, or fascinating encounters or whatever.
I'd stick to 3/4ths BAB and d8 Hit Dice, but buff up the auras, perhaps with some of the Dragon Shaman auras thrown in, and some special little tweaks all it's own, such as a higher level improvement on Grant Move Action that allows the Marshall to grant an ally a single extra attack action (like a Haste spell), or to allow an ally to reroll a single attack roll, saving throw or skill check, limited to X times / day.
The Dragon Shaman feats that grant extra auras, or the ability to have two auras up at a time, might be included as bonus feats that the Marshall can choose, or just made Class Abilities at some point (since any Marshall would end up taking the latter one anyway, there's little reason to not include it!).
If one wants to go the increased fighting ability route, the d10 HD and full BAB thing is an option, and perhaps even throw in a mechanic similar to the Knight classes Taunt/Goad ability. Merge two kind of 'meh' classes into one 'total package,' perhaps.
I'm having trouble locating the Dragon shaman feats you referenced. Can you point me in the right direction?
When buffing the class up, you'll have to choose whether to make it more of a fighter (as some of the above suggestions have done) or more of a buffer / leader.
There's no real issue of stepping on the Bard's toes, even if it ends up buffing better than bard song, because the Bard's specialty isn't being 'best' at function A, B or C, but being capable of doing almost anything, and even a Marshall who can outbuff the Bard still isn't going to be casting any arcane spells, or any arcane *healing* spells, or fascinating encounters or whatever.
I'd stick to 3/4ths BAB and d8 Hit Dice, but buff up the auras, perhaps with some of the Dragon Shaman auras thrown in, and some special little tweaks all it's own, such as a higher level improvement on Grant Move Action that allows the Marshall to grant an ally a single extra attack action (like a Haste spell), or to allow an ally to reroll a single attack roll, saving throw or skill check, limited to X times / day.
The Dragon Shaman feats that grant extra auras, or the ability to have two auras up at a time, might be included as bonus feats that the Marshall can choose, or just made Class Abilities at some point (since any Marshall would end up taking the latter one anyway, there's little reason to not include it!).
If one wants to go the increased fighting ability route, the d10 HD and full BAB thing is an option, and perhaps even throw in a mechanic similar to the Knight classes Taunt/Goad ability. Merge two kind of 'meh' classes into one 'total package,' perhaps.
I have an updated version of the Marshall for PRPG I would like feed back on.
I'm guessing there is no way to post a word doc?
Sharing the love for the Marshall...and the Dragon Shaman... Would LOVE to see one or both of these make a PFRPG return... Along with warmage and scout.... these two have become a favorite amongst my groups... I do beleive the Marshall is a bit underpowered...love the Fighter BAB and d10 Hit points ideas... Already used the Double Draconic Aura Feat on a Marshall character...the wording pretty much said any Aura, so we went with it...the one concept I did like for 4th ed...was the Warlord class.... I guess anything can have an upside...
I've heard all the arguements for a Bard/Fighter... its silly really...we are talking about the mercenary captain, the canny general, the tribal warleader...etc... We need a class to reflect that leader... Someone whose abilities and skills make him both a dangerous opponent and a leader of men...so UP ANDORAN! and make them pay for our steel with their blood!
Sharing the love for the Marshall...and the Dragon Shaman... Would LOVE to see one or both of these make a PFRPG return... Along with warmage and scout.... these two have become a favorite amongst my groups... I do beleive the Marshall is a bit underpowered...love the Fighter BAB and d10 Hit points ideas... Already used the Double Draconic Aura Feat on a Marshall character...the wording pretty much said any Aura, so we went with it...the one concept I did like for 4th ed...was the Warlord class.... I guess anything can have an upside...
I've heard all the arguements for a Bard/Fighter... its silly really...we are talking about the mercenary captain, the canny general, the tribal warleader...etc... We need a class to reflect that leader... Someone whose abilities and skills make him both a dangerous opponent and a leader of men...so UP ANDORAN! and make them pay for our steel with their blood!
I concur. I just don't see fighter/bard working.
OK I'm computer retarded.
Does anyone have a free way to host a word doc that I could just post a link to, or should I just slog though typing in what I changed?
I have an updated version of the Marshall for PRPG I would like feed back on.
I'm guessing there is no way to post a word doc?
Slogging it is then.
I leave BAB, HD, and saves as is.
I switch spot and listen to perception and languages to linguist.
Skill point go from 4 to 6.
Skill focus is a choice between diplomacy and intimidation at 1st level. I wanted this class to work for humanoid war chiefs etc too.
Battle Cry (Ex): All allies including the Marshall within a 60’ radius gain the stated bonus (circumstance) on attack, damage, and saves versus fear effects for 1 round per 2 class levels. This radius increases to 90’ at 10th level. This is a standard action. Allies affected by this ability who are subject to a fear effect when this ability is activated are granted another save with the stated bonus.
Inspiring Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a one round or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves vs. Charm or Fear effects –and– +1 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 5 rounds after you stop speaking, and you can continue it while you fight (but not while casting spells). Usable once per day.
Grant Move Action gains the following:
At 12th level the allies may perform 1 attack at their highest bonus instead of the move action. At 20th level the ally may perform a standard action instead of the move action.
Bonus Feat: The Marshall gains a bonus leadership feat. He must meet the prerequisites.
Legendary Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a five minute or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves –and– +2 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 10 minutes /(2 levels + CHA modifier) after you stop speaking, and you can continue it while you fight (but not while casting spells). Usable once per day.
Level Special Auras Known
Minor Major
1 Skill Focus (Diplomacy), minor aura 1 0
2 Major aura +1 1 1
3 Battle Cry +1 1/day 2 1
4 Grant move action 1/day 2 1
5 Inspiring Speech, Battle Cry +1 2/day 3 2
6 Bonus Feat 3 2
7 Major aura +2 4 2
8 Grant move action 2/day 4 2
9 Battle Cry +2 3/day 5 3
10 Expanded Aura 90’ 5 3
11 Bonus Feat 5 3
12 Grant move action or attack 3/day 6 3
13 Battle Cry +2 4/day 6 3
14 Major aura +3 6 4
15 Battle Cry +3 5/day 7 4
16 Grant move action or attack 4/day 7 4
17 Bonus Feat 7 4
18 Battle Cry +3 6/day 7 4
19 Legendary Speech major aura +4 8 4
20 Grant standard action 5/day, 8(9) 5
Sorry for the table being compressed.
Slogging it is then.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'd make the following change :
Legendary Speech : Duration = 10 minutes * CHA Bonus + (Level/2), Minimum 1
The adding the Charisma to the level is clunky, and doesn't match how any other special abilities are done. This would give you, assuming a Charisma of 18 at 19th level :
10 * (4 + (19/2)) = 10 * 14 = 140 minutes (useful for pre-battle).
The old way (which was kinda clunky) was :
10 * (19 + 4/2) = 10 * (23/2) = 10 * 12 = 120 minutes (still useful for pre-battle).
At that length, another 20 minutes won't matter, and the mechanic fits with the way most other special abilities are figured.
I'd make the lesser speech (the one that lasts 5 rounds) use the same mechanic, but rounds.
Duration = CHA Bonus + (Level/2) Rounds, Minimum 1
Then get rid of the ability to keep it going, that steps on the bard's abilities. And it scales as you go up in level.
Slogging it is then.
** spoiler omitted **...
Not Bad...though I might go deeper into the Warmaster Prestige Class in the 3.0 Sword and Fist... just something to note... but a Rally Cry to allow people to overcome fear is a GOOD option... I'd like to see the class more a Hybrid with the Dragon Shaman... I like the Auras there a bit more...at least for the Major Auras
Also maybe an option that allows PC's to take advantage of Defensive formations under the instruction of the Marshall....though I'm certain it could be done as an Aura... but maybe an AC Bonus when shoulder to shoulder with said character....
Slogging it is then.
** spoiler omitted **...
Not Bad...though I might go deeper into the Warmaster Prestige Class in the 3.0 Sword and Fist... just something to note... but a Rally Cry to allow people to overcome fear is a GOOD option... I'd like to see the class more a Hybrid with the Dragon Shaman... I like the Auras there a bit more...at least for the Major Auras
Also maybe an option that allows PC's to take advantage of Defensive formations under the instruction of the Marshall....though I'm certain it could be done as an Aura... but maybe an AC Bonus when shoulder to shoulder with said character....
There's already a major aura that gives AC bonus.
But a Minor Aura that gives an AC bonus when at least one ally is adjacent to you would be doable I'd think. Since it would only apply when fighting side by side, it's much less useful than the major aura, so a minor is appropriate. Don't think it should be stackable, but gives AC bonus's at a lower level, and also free's up your major if you are fighting a defensive line.
Slogging it is then.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'd make the following change :
Legendary Speech : Duration = 10 minutes * CHA Bonus + (Level/2), Minimum 1
The adding the Charisma to the level is clunky, and doesn't match how any other special abilities are done. This would give you, assuming a Charisma of 18 at 19th level :
10 * (4 + (19/2)) = 10 * 14 = 140 minutes (useful for pre-battle).
The old way (which was kinda clunky) was :
10 * (19 + 4/2) = 10 * (23/2) = 10 * 12 = 120 minutes (still useful for pre-battle).
At that length, another 20 minutes won't matter, and the mechanic fits with the way most other special abilities are figured.
I'd make the lesser speech (the one that lasts 5 rounds) use the same mechanic, but rounds.
Duration = CHA Bonus + (Level/2) Rounds, Minimum 1
Then get rid of the ability to keep it going, that steps on the bard's abilities. And it scales as you go up in level.
Oops, That's how I meant for the duration on Legendary Speech to read. How's this:
Legendary Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a five minute or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves –and– +2 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 10 minutes / (2 levels) + CHA modifier after you stop speaking. Usable once per day.
I like your thought on consistency regarding Inspiring Speech.
Inspiring Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a one round or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves vs. Charm or Fear effects –and– +1 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts CHA modifier + (Class level/2) rounds. Usable once per day.
I concur with not wanting to step on the Bards toes too.
Do you think I should scale Inspiring Speech to 1/day at 5th, 2/day at 10th, 3/day at 15th, and 4/day at 20th? I tend to prefer class abilities that grow with the character.
I appreciate the feed back!
Oops, That's how I meant for the duration on Legendary Speech to read. How's this:Legendary Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a five minute or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves –and– +2 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 10 minutes / (2 levels) + CHA modifier after you stop speaking. Usable once per day.
I like your thought on consistency regarding Inspiring Speech.
Inspiring Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a one round or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves vs. Charm or Fear effects –and– +1 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts CHA modifier + (Class level/2) rounds. Usable once per day.
I concur with not wanting to step on the Bards toes too.
Do you think I should scale Inspiring Speech to 1/day at 5th, 2/day at 10th, 3/day at 15th, and 4/day at 20th? I tend to prefer class abilities that grow with the character.
I appreciate the feed back!
Pretty good, how about the following :
Legendary Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a five minute or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves –and– +2 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 10 minutes per point of CHA bonus plus 10 minutes / (2 levels) from the end of your speech. Usable once per day.
Sorry, I have a math degree, so I'm kind of finicky about formulas. As original, it would be (for a 19th level character) 10 * 10 + CHA = 100 + CHA (or 104 for a 18 CHA character). The reason for that is that in a formula, you evaluate all multiplication/division before addition/subtraction.
The reason for changing it from 'end of speech' from 'once you finish talking' is just a wording thing for me, the same thing honestly.
:)
As to the scaling, I think that's a fair thing as well, and 5/10/15/20 is a well established leveling boost progression in the system.
And finally, no problem, always happy to spout my opinion, whether it's solicited or not. :)
Slogging it is then.
** spoiler omitted **...
Not Bad...though I might go deeper into the Warmaster Prestige Class in the 3.0 Sword and Fist... just something to note... but a Rally Cry to allow people to overcome fear is a GOOD option... I'd like to see the class more a Hybrid with the Dragon Shaman... I like the Auras there a bit more...at least for the Major Auras
Also maybe an option that allows PC's to take advantage of Defensive formations under the instruction of the Marshall....though I'm certain it could be done as an Aura... but maybe an AC Bonus when shoulder to shoulder with said character....
There's already a major aura that gives AC bonus.
But a Minor Aura that gives an AC bonus when at least one ally is adjacent to you would be doable I'd think. Since it would only apply when fighting side by side, it's much less useful than the major aura, so a minor is appropriate. Don't think it should be stackable, but gives AC bonus's at a lower level, and also free's up your major if you are fighting a defensive line.
The closest minor aura now is:
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
However the bonus is the Marshall's CHA bonus so the condition would have to be fairly specific. A +3 to +6 to AC at low to mid levels is mighty stout.
The closest minor aura now is:
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
However the bonus is the Marshall's CHA bonus so the condition would have to be fairly specific. A +3 to +6 to AC at low to mid levels is mighty stout.
Yes,
But I think it's ok. Remember, we're talking about 'you must have an ally within 5 feet'. Immediately adjacent. While that's good when you're defending a line, it's also bad. Area effect spells, breath weapons, etc. Plus, it means you're unlikely to get the bonus if you're flanking someone. Or at least, not everyone can have it (unless you can surround the person, in which case, they're dead anyway and the ac bonus makes even more sense).I don't see it as that bad since it's balanced by increased vulnerability to AOE, breath and splash weapons. And, it won't affect touch attacks either way.
Oops, That's how I meant for the duration on Legendary Speech to read. How's this:Legendary Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a five minute or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves –and– +2 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 10 minutes / (2 levels) + CHA modifier after you stop speaking. Usable once per day.
I like your thought on consistency regarding Inspiring Speech.
Inspiring Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a one round or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves vs. Charm or Fear effects –and– +1 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts CHA modifier + (Class level/2) rounds. Usable once per day.
I concur with not wanting to step on the Bards toes too.
Do you think I should scale Inspiring Speech to 1/day at 5th, 2/day at 10th, 3/day at 15th, and 4/day at 20th? I tend to prefer class abilities that grow with the character.
I appreciate the feed back!
Pretty good, how about the following :
Legendary Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a five minute or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves –and– +2 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts 10 minutes per point of CHA bonus plus 10 minutes / (2 levels) from the end of your speech. Usable once per day.
Sorry, I have a math degree, so I'm kind of finicky about formulas. As original, it would be (for a 19th level character) 10 * 10 + CHA = 100 + CHA (or 104 for a 18 CHA character). The reason for that is that in a formula, you evaluate all multiplication/division before addition/subtraction.
The reason for changing it from 'end of speech' from 'once you finish talking' is just a wording thing for me, the same thing honestly.
:)
As to the scaling, I think that's a fair thing as well, and 5/10/15/20 is a well established leveling boost progression in the system.
And finally, no problem, always happy to...
I prefer your wording on Legendary speech, so I took the liberty of C&P it into my doc.
I still recall PEMDAS; I was just struggling to articulate the idea in type. ;)
New inspiring speech:
Inspiring Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a one round or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves vs. Charm or Fear effects –and– +1 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts CHA modifier + (Class level/2) rounds. Usable once per day at 5th, twice per day at 10th, 3 times per day at 15th, and 4 times per day at 20th.
I prefer your wording on Legendary speech, so I took the liberty of C&P it into my doc.
I still recall PEMDAS; I was just struggling to articulate the idea in type. ;)
New inspiring speech:
Inspiring Speech (Ex): By inspiring allies with a one round or longer speech, all allies within hearing distance gain +2 Morale bonus on saves vs. Charm or Fear effects –and– +1 Morale bonus on attacks & weapon damage. The effect lasts CHA modifier + (Class level/2) rounds. Usable once per day at 5th, twice per day at 10th, 3 times per day at 15th, and 4 times per day at 20th.
Looks good to me. I think you could get away with 'Once per day at 5th level, and one additional use per day every 5 additional levels.'. That way, if the Marshall goes epic, he continues to accrue uses.
The closest minor aura now is:
Master of Opportunity: Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity.
However the bonus is the Marshall's CHA bonus so the condition would have to be fairly specific. A +3 to +6 to AC at low to mid levels is mighty stout.
Yes,
But I think it's ok. Remember, we're talking about 'you must have an ally within 5 feet'. Immediately adjacent. While that's good when you're defending a line, it's also bad. Area effect spells, breath weapons, etc. Plus, it means you're unlikely to get the bonus if you're flanking someone. Or at least, not everyone can have it (unless you can surround the person, in which case, they're dead anyway and the ac bonus makes even more sense).I don't see it as that bad since it's balanced by increased vulnerability to AOE, breath and splash weapons. And, it won't affect touch attacks either way.
All bonuses granted by a marshal's auras are circumstance bonuses that do not stack with each other. IIRC circumstance bonuses apply to touch AC.
Perhaps a limit of 3 or 4 adjacent allies and/or allies with shields.
EDIT: Looking at the shield feats and other AC effects I think this minor aura would need a pretty short leash. I really like the concept, but it seems quite potent.
Is this change to Grant Move Action excessive?
At 12th level the allies may perform 1 attack at their highest bonus instead of the move action. At 20th level the ally may perform a standard action instead of the move action.
Grant Move Action (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a marshal can direct and motivate his allies to act immediately. Once per day, as a standard action, he may grant an extra move action to any or all of his allies within 30 feet (but not to himself). Each of the affected allies takes this extra move action immediately, acting in their current initiative order. This extra action does not affect the allies' initiative count; the round continues normally after the marshal's turn is over. (This may mean, for example, that an ally whose initiative count immediately follows the marshal's may get an extra move action from the marshal, followed directly by a full round worth of actions on the ally's turn.)
At 8th level, a marshal gains the ability to grant an extra move action to his allies twice per day. The frequency increases to three times per day at 12th level, four times per day at 16th level, and five times per day at 20th level.
A character can take only one extra move action per round. (In other words, two marshals can't use this ability on the same ally in the same round.) If an ally chooses not to take the extra move action, it is lost.
At 12th level the allies may perform 1 attack at their highest bonus instead of the move action. At 20th level the ally may perform a standard action instead of the move action.
Is this change to Grant Move Action excessive?
At 12th level the allies may perform 1 attack at their highest bonus instead of the move action. At 20th level the ally may perform a standard action instead of the move action.
** spoiler omitted **
I'd make it, 'At 12th level, the allies may either perform a move action, or take another attack at their highest bonus if they have not taken any additional attacks that round'. That makes it more like a mass snake's swiftness.
I'd make it, 'At 12th level, the allies may either perform a move action, or take another attack at their highest bonus if they have not taken any additional attacks that round'. That makes it more like a mass snake's swiftness.Is this change to Grant Move Action excessive?
At 12th level the allies may perform 1 attack at their highest bonus instead of the move action. At 20th level the ally may perform a standard action instead of the move action.
** spoiler omitted **
Good catch, I never intended for it to stack with haste either.
EDIT: How's this look?
At 12th level, the allies may either perform a move action, or take another attack at their highest bonus if they have not taken any additional attacks that round. At 20th level the ally may perform a standard action as a swift action instead of the move action.
Slogging it is then.
** spoiler omitted **...
Not Bad...though I might go deeper into the Warmaster Prestige Class in the 3.0 Sword and Fist... just something to note... but a Rally Cry to allow people to overcome fear is a GOOD option... I'd like to see the class more a Hybrid with the Dragon Shaman... I like the Auras there a bit more...at least for the Major Auras
Also maybe an option that allows PC's to take advantage of Defensive formations under the instruction of the Marshall....though I'm certain it could be done as an Aura... but maybe an AC Bonus when shoulder to shoulder with said character....
I like the Warmaster and the PDK, and I adapted some material from them. I also agree that a mechanic to rally demoralized characters is quite important to this class.
Yep...the Rally Cry can make the whole fight against that Big Dragon...or Mummy or lIch...etc...
Tonight my group was SAVED by the fact that the Party Warpriest had Rally... The Trio of Beast of Bane Templated Invisible Stalkers was about as much fight as they could ever want...That Fear Wail Sonic effect had them in a real bad state at the beginning of the Fight... Tonights near debacle was something I wish everyone could have witnessed and how crucial the Rally was to turning the battle to the PC's favor.... It doubled my desire to see a class that covers this added to the Core Classes at some point or another... Guess I will Toy with a Build tomorrow and Post it for scrutiny as well
Yep...the Rally Cry can make the whole fight against that Big Dragon...or Mummy or lIch...etc...
Tonight my group was SAVED by the fact that the Party Warpriest had Rally... The Trio of Beast of Bane Templated Invisible Stalkers was about as much fight as they could ever want...That Fear Wail Sonic effect had them in a real bad state at the beginning of the Fight... Tonights near debacle was something I wish everyone could have witnessed and how crucial the Rally was to turning the battle to the PC's favor.... It doubled my desire to see a class that covers this added to the Core Classes at some point or another... Guess I will Toy with a Build tomorrow and Post it for scrutiny as well
There are some cool feats in (DR323 p28) too.
It bothers me a little that there doesn't seem to be a non magical rally function in core unless I missed one for the Bard. I don't play any organized play, so it doesn't impact me directly, but it seems like there should be something.
Ok so...my version of the Marshall Build...
[/I have done away with Minor Auras Completely to make room for Abilities and the Auras start at 30'and Only One Aura can be used at a time to begin with(A Feat at 9th Level allows a second Aura to be up)
Keep the 3/4 BAB and Cleric Saves...
Increase HP to d10...
Go with 4 Skill points per Level Replace Spot with Perception and Speak Language with Linguistics
1st- Aura (30')+1, Bonus Feat (Chosen From Fighter/Leadership/Aura Feats*) 3 Auras Total
2nd- Rally Cry As Warpriest can be done Cha Bonus times/day (Reroll Fear Save @ +1
3rd-Inspiring Speach 1/day Takes 1 Minute (+2 to Attacks, Saves and Skill CHecks for CHA Bonus/Minutes) 4 Auras
4th-Grant Move Action 1/day
5th-Auras +2 5 Auras
6th-Fearsome Reputation 1/day as Standard Action Can Insprie Fear(Shaken) in Foes in a 20' Radius DC=10+Cha Bonus
7th-Bonus Feat(As 1st Level)6 Auras
8th-Grant Move Action 2/day
9th-Inspiring Speach 2/day 7 Auras
10th-Aura +3, Fearsome Reputation(Panic)
11th-Aura Size Increase to 60' 8 Auras
12th-Fearsome Reputation 2/day, Grant Move Action 3/day
13th-Bonus Feat(as 1st Level) 9 Auras
14th-
15th-Aura +4, Inspiing Speach 3/day 10 Auras
16th-Grant Move 4/day
17th-11 Auras
18th-Fearsome Reputation 3/day
19th-Bonus Feat(as 1st Level) 12 Auras
20th-Aura +5, Grant Move Action 5/day
Auras... All the Major Auras from the 3.5 Marshall(mini's hbk) plus
Senses, Vigor and Aura from the Dragon Shaman (phb2)
2 New Auras to fill it out
Wall of Steel- Grant Extra Attacks of Opportunity to Allies
To the Last Drop of Blood- Grants Allies full combat capabilities even when reduced to less than 0 HP, last a # of Rounds equal to the Aura Bonus though they still die if reduced to -10 HP(this a somewhat less powerful version of the Warpriest Ability that allows Allies to live until they reach -20 HP)
Possible Feats to expand the Auras Abilities
Double Aura- Allows the Marshall to use 2 Auras, Prereq 9th level
Empowered Aura- Adds +1 to the Aura Bonus, Prereq 12th level
Expanded Aura- Add 20' to Aura Range Prereq 6th Level]
I really like "last drop of blood". I seriously considered attaching the Die hard feat to my legendary speech ability too, but given the duration It seemed excessive.
I'm not sure I agree with dropping the minor auras. IMG these get almost as much use as the major ones. I reckon it helps mitigate MAD though.
Is there a reason that fearsome reputation goes from shaken to panicked? Was skipping frightened a deliberate choice?
Is there a reason that fearsome reputation goes from shaken to panicked? Was skipping frightened a deliberate choice?
Well I figure until we see the Final PFRPG draft we don't know how the Fear rules are gonna fall for sure...so I just put in the two most commonlt "expected effect" Seems most monsters with a fear aura use either Shaken or Panicked... so I just took it from one exteme to the next...easily could be changed to run the gamut as the level progress...I mainly wanted to throw the Fear thing in there because of the way HERO's tend to be perceived in the game world...