Hey all,
Just wandering my way back to the Paizo Boards after a few months of a break from it.
It is way too late to introduce a whole mechanic to PF RPG, but this is something that I wish I would have asked about, lobbied for, or at least mentioned a long, long time ago.
Legacy Items.. or items that 'unlock' or 'grow' in power and usefulness along with the player.
Here's the deal: my players love a lot of things about 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG, but the one thing that they do have to bring themselves not to think too hard or long about is the constant exchange of magic items as treasure.
They'd love to hang on to their toys for parts of their entire adventuring careers. Name those items, and develop backstories and histories for them.. have them stolen by NPCs and go on adventures to recover them. They go on endlessly about how every great fantasy character like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser have named weapons that they never let go.
Core 3.5 never really supported this concept, and if there was one rule sub-system that I wish I could use as an to standard treasure/rewards, it would be this one.
Earthdawn (Redbrick) uses this concept, and I know others might as well.
I find myself wishing there was a future Pathfinder sub-system that allowed for this.
Hey all,
Just wandering my way back to the Paizo Boards after a few months of a break from it.
It is way too late to introduce a whole mechanic to PF RPG, but this is something that I wish I would have asked about, lobbied for, or at least mentioned a long, long time ago.
Legacy Items.. or items that 'unlock' or 'grow' in power and usefulness along with the player.
Here's the deal: my players love a lot of things about 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG, but the one thing that they do have to bring themselves not to think too hard or long about is the constant exchange of magic items as treasure.
They'd love to hang on to their toys for parts of their entire adventuring careers. Name those items, and develop backstories and histories for them.. have them stolen by NPCs and go on adventures to recover them. They go on endlessly about how every great fantasy character like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser have named weapons that they never let go.
Core 3.5 never really supported this concept, and if there was one rule sub-system that I wish I could use as an to standard treasure/rewards, it would be this one.
Earthdawn (Redbrick) uses this concept, and I know others might as well.
I find myself wishing there was a future Pathfinder sub-system that allowed for this.
I know I had a GM do this for us at one point, though I can't remember if it was back in 2 or 3. I'll see if I can track down what rules we used and drop in a post on it.
It was wonderful, because while we would find new treasure, the first weapon that we found that really fit the character, and we indicated we really liked, would grow with us, gaining pluses and such.
I vaguely remember adding gems and paying for talented artisans to add to my weaponry ... heck, this might have been back in AD&D or 1! Oy, that's a few years ago now (like 22 ::laughing::) Will definitely see what I can find for you.
Director of Brand Strategy
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We're using this in the STAP game I'm playing in, since access to civilization is so tough for so much of the AP (at least until you can teleport).
Basically, at character creation, we each picked an item that would be our signature item. As we leveled up and accumulated wealth which we either couldn't sell or outgrew, we could expend the resource in a narrative way which would improve our item. A sword could have money spent on it to sharpen it, making it keen, or money spent on it to shine it, making it +1. The money isn't actually spent, but invested in roleplay, so city GP limits and caster level limits don't apply. You get a periapt of wisdom you're not using? "Trade it in" (for half its favlue) and get a +1 to your greataxe! It's worked really well for us so far.
I do this in my game. Nothing stops you from doing it with 3.5 or PathFinder. Go for it!
I don't know if this could be crushed into the main book... I mean I have wishful thinking about some additional feats but don't have any real illusion that they'd make it in. (this is where house rules can be cool)
However, have you looked at the Item Familiar or Legendary Weapons in the UA(see various SRD websites) rules? I'm not saying that your players should use the feats or PrCs, just look them over and see if those are mechanics you can adopt. There was also an article in Dragon Magazine #289 for leveled treasures (good issue, had the giant godzilla monster template) which let you spend EXP to advance items power.
Now a cool thing about the removal of EXP from the magic item creation equation is that it could be story justify use some or all of found magic items GP value as 'components' in enchanting a player's favored item. Again use the magic item creation guidelines to layer additional abilities on items beyond what they normally have.
For example, instead of giving your favorite sword an additional +1 how about adding Wind Fan (wondrous) powers.
I think Jason Could call himself the Game Mechanic, the way he fixed the game ;-)
Anyway, there's already rules that could be altered to support this:
Oriental Adventures / Rokugan d20 Samurai have the Ancestral Daisho ability, which lets them improve their katana and/or wakizashi with a mere GP expenditure (or XP in Rokugan) and a (relatively) short ceremony - and you can sacrifice items for full market value!
There's also a feat somewhere that lets someone extend that to another item.
And the Book of Exalted Deeds has a feat that does something a lot like that, too.
Beyond that, the Kensai/Sword Saint class (the 3.5 version) has something similar as well if I recall correctly.
And don't forget Unearthed Arcana, which has craft points.
The book Weapons of Legacy was all about this, though they went too far if you ask me, requiring you to take levels in a special PrC
Finally, take a look at a PF RPG Beta wizard's bonded item, and maybe even the weapon version of a Paladin's divine bond. And I think there will be a way for non-spellcasters to be able to create magic weapons.
I'm sure you can take one of those systems (or even several and mix them up), modify it a bit, and end up with items that grow with the characters.
I think books like Weapons of Legacy and the Artifacts of the Ages series have the right idea: magic items that start off humble and get more oomph as their wielder does. The inherent problem with all of these methods are PrC requirements and/or unnecessarily steep accompanying penalties just to do something that would be pretty easy to 'hard code' into the items themselves.
Another thread posited level-based acquisition of bonuses.
Back in 2e the concept of 'signature items' (unfortunately, only available to 21st - 30th level characters) was introduced, wherein a character could declare an item as a 'signature item'. If it got destroyed or stolen or whatever, with a bit of effort - in 3e terms, re-acquiring a masterwork replacement - the signature item could be replaced by the character.
Why not an item-slot based hybrid of the two? As things presently stand, that means a lot of home-brewed leg work, but if you're hardcoding in the treasure for your campaign, in a way you are already doing that. Running an AP / published-materials campaign, you have to do it differently, as the treasure haul is often pretty substantial.
I've always enjoyed reading the nifty unique magic items since The Old DaysTM, and one of the great losses to me in 3e has been the loss of unique items. I don't find the Holy Avenger all that impressive other than the mechanical benefits - it's Lionliver's Reaver of the DamnedTM that stokes my imagination. Excalibur - the combination of the name and its legend - evokes the imagination, as do many other named weapons from yesteryear. I'm guessing that is a big part of the appeal of the named / signature item concept. A REALLY early 3e module had just that built into a "fire staff" (or fire sword, I do not remember clearly at this point) the 1st level characters acquired. The weapon was charted up to gain powers as the wielder gained character levels and did not - as I recall - have any idiotic feat requirements, prestige class requirements or penalties.
Some such items are legitimately Artifacts in game terms - but they do not have to be to remain unique. I'd much rather have a Flame Tongue than a Flaming Burst skillet, wield a Frostbrand than a Freezing Burst Pigsticker, and so on.
Perhaps an equitable solution can be determined - I expect each of us for the now will have to hash out thier own answers to best suit thier own campaigns.
Actually, way back in 1st edition, there was a Flaming Burst Skillet in an issue of Dragon, in a section supposedly about non-combat magics. But it turned out that a large piece of cast iron that could cast Heat Metal on itself was a dandy weapon too. Sears trolls to keep them from regenerating, and does both hot AND cold iron damage to fey!
Actually, way back in 1st edition, there was a Flaming Burst Skillet in an issue of Dragon, in a section supposedly about non-combat magics. But it turned out that a large piece of cast iron that could cast Heat Metal on itself was a dandy weapon too. Sears trolls to keep them from regenerating, and does both hot AND cold iron damage to fey!
Yes ... but it was the only magical skillet - be pretty fun for 3e though, and a hobb... halfling chef with Skillet Weapon Mastery would rawk.
Well, shoot ... it was back in First Edition, and the GM doesn't have any notes left on that that he can lay his hands on. But it looks like Kae Yoss came up with some great sources to work from :)
Unearthed Arcana also had a section on Weapons of Legacy... with Prestige Classes and feats I believe related to it. Should be OGL too (it's part of the SRD if I recall correctly).
I'll check and see if I can find a link later.
Contributor
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Hey all,
Just wandering my way back to the Paizo Boards after a few months of a break from it.
It is way too late to introduce a whole mechanic to PF RPG, but this is something that I wish I would have asked about, lobbied for, or at least mentioned a long, long time ago.
Legacy Items.. or items that 'unlock' or 'grow' in power and usefulness along with the player.
Here's the deal: my players love a lot of things about 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG, but the one thing that they do have to bring themselves not to think too hard or long about is the constant exchange of magic items as treasure.
They'd love to hang on to their toys for parts of their entire adventuring careers. Name those items, and develop backstories and histories for them.. have them stolen by NPCs and go on adventures to recover them. They go on endlessly about how every great fantasy character like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser have named weapons that they never let go.
Core 3.5 never really supported this concept, and if there was one rule sub-system that I wish I could use as an to standard treasure/rewards, it would be this one.
Earthdawn (Redbrick) uses this concept, and I know others might as well.
I find myself wishing there was a future Pathfinder sub-system that allowed for this.
I'd enjoy this too, especially if its core rules, and I don't have to drift the system to get it. Good point, Watcher.
Here's the link to an SRD for Unearthed Arcana rules on this.
In particular, what you are probably wanting as a general rule is the "Item Familiars", as it's more "regular item" than "big ticket plot device item".
Earthdawn (Redbrick) uses this concept, and I know others might as well.
As a member of RedBrick Limited's Reseach & Development team and Earthdawn writer/editor/designer, I say I like this idea. ;)
Of course, implementing it might be a little hard. I recall a 3.x adventure path (Drow Wars, by Mongoose Publishing) that had a similar idea. They had magical items that were bound to the characters, so they would grow in power as the characters advanced.
In Earthdawn, a character must invest a part of himself (Legend Points and attach threads) and uncover the item's secrets (Key Knowledges) in order to unlock and increase its magic. For Drow Wars, the signature itmes (as they were called in Drow Wars as well), increase as the player goes up in levels by assigning "item bonus points," which were used to "buy" enhancements (max +10 at level 20, so 1 point every 2 levels).
If you did something like that, you would have to factor in the less treasure, though, for balance.
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Actually, way back in 1st edition, there was a Flaming Burst Skillet in an issue of Dragon, in a section supposedly about non-combat magics. But it turned out that a large piece of cast iron that could cast Heat Metal on itself was a dandy weapon too. Sears trolls to keep them from regenerating, and does both hot AND cold iron damage to fey!
<imagines George Foreman hiding in the woods, converting his Lean Mean Grilling Machine into a beartrap for trolls....>
Actually, way back in 1st edition, there was a Flaming Burst Skillet in an issue of Dragon, in a section supposedly about non-combat magics. But it turned out that a large piece of cast iron that could cast Heat Metal on itself was a dandy weapon too. Sears trolls to keep them from regenerating, and does both hot AND cold iron damage to fey!<imagines George Foreman hiding in the woods, converting his Lean Mean Grilling Machine into a beartrap for trolls....>
Don't forget the rotisserie - that thing has some wicked long spikes on / in it, ouch.
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The book Weapons of Legacy was all about this, though they went too far if you ask me, requiring you to take levels in a special PrC
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You don't need to take levels in the Legacy Champion PrC to be able to use a legacy items. In fact you have to own and unlock the least powers of a legacy weapon as a requirement for taking the PrC.
I was running an Age of Worms campaign when the Pathfinder Alpha's & Beta came out and two of the characters had legacy items when we converted over to Pathfinder to play test the new rules. The legacy items worked just as well under Pathfinder as they did under 3.5 as far as I can tell, at least my players didn't indicate that there was a difference.
In my opinion, the legacy item rules will work just fine under Pathfinder.
I beleive that the DMG2 has some form of item bonding any class can use too.
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We have done this with items for a long time.
Our mechanic essentially allowed the PC to choose an item to enhance. He invested a number of XP into an item, using ritual bonding, and added any bonuses or enhancements he wanted to the item. The XP cost was the number of XP needed to create the item to begin with.
This did two things.
First, it allowed the PC to keep his hard earned XP toward leveling. The catch was that IF the item was destroyed, or separated from the owner for more than 30 days, THEN the PC would loose the XP. Sort of like a familiar...
Second, it allowed the Player to choose his items and enhance them however he liked and grow them along side the PC.
We used the Ritual every 5th level, so 5, 10, 15 and 20 we could invest up to 10% of our XP. That is a LOT. But there was always a risk of loosing it, so I don't think we ever used all we could.
These items essentially became our Legacy, or Epic items.
For more generic magic items we created an Artificer Class based upon Unearthed Arcana's generic Expert Class and Craft Points. This allowed us to create items quickly if needed and made for a decent class, really, for someone willing to play a more supportive role.
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I've been toying around with the idea that Action Points could be used for this purpose, i.e. swapping them into XP you can use to "craft" your items. Now, it wouldn't work (i.e. most PCs would probably save all of them for this purpose), unless you give everyone a point or two extra at the end of each session. Another option would be to give some "free" (story/role-playing) XP to use this way.
...can I have the flaming burst skillet? :)
...can I have the flaming burst skillet? :)
I should imagine that it would not be overly expensive - ask your neighborhood GM.
I do highly suggest it as suitable for your avatar's gear though. ^_^ :)
How about using intelligent items that "level up?"
Flaming Burst Skillet with intelligence and ranks in Profession (cook) and Craft (alchemy) ... sweeeet ...
Nothing says items can't gain xp - the intelligent ones at least...
How about the player nominates a range of powers they are seeking in broad terms
say for a +1 longsword, they want attack and damage, perhaps particularly useful against red dragons and ettins (who knows why.)
A system could be designed to particularise enhancement benefits
- ie jade for protection, diamonds for strength, blood for power etc
Then the DM says ok your research (or bard or wizard) tells you of a legend here that if you soak the blade in warm diamond infused blood of a draconic creature it will enhance its power, and saphires and jet will keep the blade strong.
the PC says great, I will invest 6000gp in this process
- (500gp researching technique, 3000gp diamond and dragon blood, 2000gp of gems put in the pommel and perhaps a small sacrifice to a relevant deity or a scabbard or whatever)
the DM says I will grant the blade bane against dragons ( or perhaps just an extra +1).
It is a more chaotic method of magic item building but as long as it is in line with the power level it will not be unbalanced
At all times the player should keep a record of what was actually spent on the item so the power can be compared to an item of similar value.
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How about using intelligent items that "level up?"
Flaming Burst Skillet with intelligence and ranks in Profession (cook) and Craft (alchemy) ... sweeeet ...
Nothing says items can't gain xp - the intelligent ones at least...
Would it lecture you about cholesterol every time you used it for a fry-up?
How about using intelligent items that "level up?"Would it lecture you about cholesterol every time you used it for a fry-up?Flaming Burst Skillet with intelligence and ranks in Profession (cook) and Craft (alchemy) ... sweeeet ...
Nothing says items can't gain xp - the intelligent ones at least...
No it would need several ranks in knowledge nature for that.
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Earthdawn is still the best game out there IMNSHO...
Weapons of Legacy was a rip-off of thread items but all the negative impacts completely ruined the system.
Pretty cool that you were an involved with Earthdawn Classic Hank. What are the major improvements that have been made to it? I haven't been able to afford the version from down under...I do have a complete set of 1st ed, and some of LRGs stuff.
Create a feat; One that allows characters an item bond feat, similar to the Arcane Bond for Wizards. Of course, in Earthdawn, it was not typical for the weapon you carried from Circle 1 to become a Legendary Thread Item for you, but after you died, others might come across your weapon and though unlocking of key knowledge, and performing rituals, the weapon would improve along the lines of the legendary reputation of the original wielder. (Example: The wielder once had a horror unable to affect him with spells. The weapon being tied to that name-giver's reputation became infused with his magic resistance, granting a bonus to spell defense.
Off the cuff here, making it up as I go.. a Ritual based feat.
Example:
Blood Bond (Ritual)
Prerequisites: 4th level
Effect: After performing the blood bond ritual, you may choose a single item tied to your destiny, this item becomes inherently magical. Through the ritual sacrifice of items you may increase the power of this item as though it was being enchanted by a character with an appropriate item craft feat. You must sacrifice items of equal value, and appropriate significance to the power gained.
So to increase the power of your item, in this case say a +1 flaming sword. You perform a ritual lasting several days, spending 4000gp in ungeants, oils and "blah blah blah" (this being left up to the individual DM.) Perhaps the remnats of a salamander or fire snake, a lightning lizard for a shocking weapon etc.
Pretty cool that you were an involved with Earthdawn Classic Hank. What are the major improvements that have been made to it?
Oh, I'm still a member of RedBrick's R&D team for both Earthdawn and Age of Legend 4E. I wrote two novels for ED, a sourcebook for Cathay, a 70,000-word adventure, and a Shard (all finished but in various stages of development atm, except the 1st novel, which is published), among other things.
As far as major improvements, one of the neatest bits is the ADM (alternative discipline mechanics; free PDF download from the website), imo.
No it would need several ranks in knowledge nature for that.How about using intelligent items that "level up?"Would it lecture you about cholesterol every time you used it for a fry-up?Flaming Burst Skillet with intelligence and ranks in Profession (cook) and Craft (alchemy) ... sweeeet ...
Nothing says items can't gain xp - the intelligent ones at least...
I'd say the lecturing depends in large part on its personality - and whether or not it gets along with you. ^_^
So if it likes you it tries to convince you to eat healthy and if it has an opposed alignment it tries to kill you slowly with high cholesterol and blood pressure?I'd say the lecturing depends in large part on its personality - and whether or not it gets along with you. ^_^No it would need several ranks in knowledge nature for that.How about using intelligent items that "level up?"Would it lecture you about cholesterol every time you used it for a fry-up?Flaming Burst Skillet with intelligence and ranks in Profession (cook) and Craft (alchemy) ... sweeeet ...
Nothing says items can't gain xp - the intelligent ones at least...
If it has telekinesis on its own accord, it will outright murder you in your sleep. Add in poison for the food poisoning and you have one Ebil Skillet.
NICE!
So why are you just an Intern for Paizo? You should be a full-time staffer! heh
From your mouth to their ears. ;)
Do you agree that Wizards did a botched job of lifting thread items into 3.5?
You know, I keep hearing about this, but I have never read wherever this is... but I'm just going to go ahead and agree with you anyway.
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NICE!
So why are you just an Intern for Paizo? You should be a full-time staffer! hehFrom your mouth to their ears. ;)
You know, I keep hearing about this, but I have never read wherever this is... but I'm just going to go ahead and agree with you anyway.
Do you agree that Wizards did a botched job of lifting thread items into 3.5?
Weapons of Legacy...
Basically thread items, but have things like -4HP or -2ATK...
check it out.
Create a feat; One that allows characters an item bond feat, similar to the Arcane Bond for Wizards.
Off the cuff here, making it up as I go.. a Ritual based feat.
Example:
Blood Bond (Ritual)
Prerequisites: 4th level
Effect: After performing the blood bond ritual, you may choose a single item tied to your destiny, this item becomes inherently magical. Through the ritual sacrifice of items you may increase the power of this item as though it was being enchanted by a character with an appropriate item craft feat. You must sacrifice items of equal value, and appropriate significance to the power gained.So to increase the power of your item, in this case say a +1 flaming sword. You perform a ritual lasting several days, spending 4000gp in ungeants, oils and "blah blah blah" (this being left up to the individual DM.) Perhaps the remnats of a salamander or fire snake, a lightning lizard for a shocking weapon etc.
Isn't there a feat pretty much like this in Book of Exalted Deeds?