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In 3.5 the Druid was about the only base class worth taking till level 20, mostly because of wild shape and the animal companion.
In the Pathfinder Beta the only features a druid gets from level 16-20 are an additional use of wildshape on level 16 and 18 and the ability to use wildshape at will. The animal companion also only gains a few more hit dice and no additional features.
Of all base classes, the druid no appears to be the one least likely to stay in his class and not leaving it after either level 12 or 15, depending on how usefuls timeless body and improved evasion for the animal companion appear to him.
If he has chosen the domain as his nature's bond he's a bit better off but it's still only to spell like abilities against the stuff 5 levels of a prestige class offer.
So the druid needs either some more exciting high level abilities or his wild shape increases have to be distributed more evenly. Since the latter would change the druids abilities in comparison to the spell level of the respective spells I would prefer the former.
Wild shape at will is a nice and flavourfull ability, but a 12th level has 5 uses, each of them lasting half a day, so the ability to use it as will seems rather weak, especially in comparison to the level 20 abilities other classes get.
How about the ability to customize the wild shapes, like getting additional bonuses to abilities or stronger natural weapons? The druid could get one such wild shape modifier on levels 14, 16 and 18. Maybe some other features, too.
the fact pf the matter is druids were nerfed because, especially at high level, they unbalanced and ruled the game. there were many broken things about druids and the way they worked in 3.5
Unlimited wild shape is HUGE in comparison to 5 times per day and uses that last half a day, in that you can go from being a swallow, to a t-rex, to a contrictor snake,to a sea turtle, to an owl in the same combat or encounter and not have used all your shapes for the day.
Its not about the "POWER" its about the versatility.
Once you have unlimited wild shapes you no longer have to "save" the uses for combat, you can use them for utility, like shaping into an elephant to carry the treasure back from the hoarde, or into an insect to crawl underneath the crack in the door, or to become the proverbial "fly on the wall".
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I don't argue that druids were blatantly overpowered in 3.5. But the way things are now, most druids will just take levels in prestige classes after level 12, similar to how clerics, sorcerers and wizards did in 3.5. It doesn't make them less powerful, it just makes them less likely to remain in their base class. Clerics and wizards were also rather powerful in 3.5 and they still got powerful and interesting abilities.
I have to say the Elephant thing is a bad example. You change into an elephant sure you look like an elephant, you walk like an elephant, but really you're an elephant with your Druids 12 strength +6 to your strength for an 18, unable to haul anything close to what the huge pachyderms are capable of. I understand the need for balance but did it really have to require such a horrible nerfing of wildshape? Argh, never mind, this has probably been beaten to death numerous times in other threads.
Regardless, in 3.5 *that* was versatility. This is... mediocre.
But then I'm also in a bad mood today and despite my whining I can't really think of a better solution so *shrug*
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I actually like the new wild shape. It just doesn't really get any better after level 12. The druid player in my campaign plays a half orc, so he's rather okay with wild shape modifying his attributes instead of overwriting them.
Concerning the examples of the usefulness of wild shape, the creature with the greatest resemblance to a fly a druid could shape into would be a stirge. Druids are unably to take the form of insects or anything smaller in size than tiny.
Wild shape is still useful, but considering that wild shape at will is more a convenience ability than a really powerful one, most druids will have all the wild shape they want after level 12 and will happily join prestige classes with spell advancement.
I actually like the new wild shape. It just doesn't really get any better after level 12. The druid player in my campaign plays a half orc, so he's rather okay with wild shape modifying his attributes instead of overwriting them.
Concerning the examples of the usefulness of wild shape, the creature with the greatest resemblance to a fly a druid could shape into would be a stirge. Druids are unably to take the form of insects or anything smaller in size than tiny.
Wild shape is still useful, but considering that wild shape at will is more a convenience ability than a really powerful one, most druids will have all the wild shape they want after level 12 and will happily join prestige classes with spell advancement.
flies are smaller than tiny? what are they classified as? Minute?
so how really strong IS an elephant? is it really a relation of strength an carrying capacity? or is it size vs encumberance.
A big screen tv isnt really that heavy so much is it is awkward to carry alone,but if you were larger, and you could fit your arms around it, it is not so hard to carry.
I would argue that nerfing druids wild shape in that sense makes well, little sense.
Theoretically, an elephant needs X amount of strength just to walk, run, and get up from laying down. Is a +6 str to a human druid capable of giving him the ability to actually basically function as an elephant? Or does he just lie there feebly because he does not have the strength to function?
Conversely, a character turned into an elephant would find himself only appearing to be an elephant, but not capable of BEING an elephant.
So what really IS an elephants ACTUAL strength and does +6 cut it?
theoretically, a druid with say a 14 str and guantlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength +6 who wildshapes into an elephant, would then get a total bonus of 14 to strength, thereby doubling his natural strength up to 28. Is he now way stronger than a natural elephant?
If I were going to nerf this power, I think I would limit the size of creatures you could wildshape into (like no more than two size categories above or below your normal state) Instead of allowing you to shape into an elephant that cant move its own weight around.
But this would all depend solely on what the animals actual strength IS.
The Old 3.5 Wildshape let you get bonus to strength for shifting size categories AND becoming the animal.
I think the physical stats for animals should be straight out determined, and then when you shape into one you take exactly those physical stats, and Con changes dont affect your hit points at all.
That way if a typical pachyderm has a 22 str, then thats what you have.
Not + 6 to your natural 18 with your guantlets and belt thrown in and another +8 for shifting size categories so you have a 40 str and are the king of all elephants.
Heck, even the wonder twins off the super friends cartoon can do exactly what they shape shift into.
"Form of a donkey, shape of a puddle of grease!"
flies are smaller than tiny? what are they classified as? Minute?
A CAT is 'Tiny'.
A MOUSE is 'Diminutive'.A FLY is 'Fine'.
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So what really IS an elephants ACTUAL strength and does +6 cut it?
theoretically, a druid with say a 14 str and guantlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength +6 who wildshapes into an elephant, would then get a total bonus of 14 to strength, thereby doubling his natural strength up to 28. Is he now way stronger than a natural elephant?If I were going to nerf this power, I think I...
He would get a total bonus of +6. The gauntlets, the belt and wild shape all give enhancement bonuses and therefore won't stack. The new wildshape rules are fine and balanced, they only need some way to get better between level 12 and 20.
Maybe at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 they could get an extra +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, and Con while wild shaped.
Maybe at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 they could get an extra +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, and Con while wild shaped.
This might not be a bad idea. Flavorwise, it's 'At level 10 you can turn into a bear. At 16th, though, you can turn into the angry king of bears.'
Director of Games
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Maybe at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 they could get an extra +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, and Con while wild shaped.
This is a pretty solid idea... any others along this line. Adding abilities that happen while wild shaped seems to be an easy way to add perks to this class without overpowering it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
He would get a total bonus of +6. The gauntlets, the belt and wild shape all give enhancement bonuses and therefore won't stack. The new wildshape rules are fine and balanced, they only need some way to get better between level 12 and 20.
So what really IS an elephants ACTUAL strength and does +6 cut it?
theoretically, a druid with say a 14 str and guantlets of ogre power and a belt of giant strength +6 who wildshapes into an elephant, would then get a total bonus of 14 to strength, thereby doubling his natural strength up to 28. Is he now way stronger than a natural elephant?If I were going to nerf this power, I think I...
well that still goes to say that at higher levels you should be able to ACTUALLY be as strong as en elephant.
You can become a Huge Animal at 8th, but in the next 12 levels you never gain the ability to actually do elephant like things?(push over trees with your tusks,carry mega weight, or even say...move?)
ID have to say for things like an elephant, the wild shaping rules seem a little broken,
Maybe there should be some scaling of these effects for higher levels.
So lets say for example with the elephant,. The 8th level druid only has 10 str and becoming an elephant would give hima 16 strenght which would effectively mean he couldnt move his own weight, so until he levels he cannot take the shape of something that weighs as much as an elephant.
While say something like a dragon technically has far more strength than it weighs (it has excess strength) so you could assume dragon form (even if you were weaker) because the +6 strength would still allow you to walk etc.
The problem with this is it would almost make a high base strength score a "must have" for druids.
What if instead of doing that, we scale the bonuses with the druid he can achieve from wild shapes as he levels.
So that eventaully, a 20th level druid WOULD have the same stats as if we WERE a dragon.
I am picturing something along the lines of the mechanic of magical belts like gaint strength and (whats that one immortal perfection?) the ones that add +6 to all physical attributes, but the druid only gets that while wild shaped andat 20th level.
(so if he transformed into an elpehant, hed get the +6 to strength and CON from his class feature and the +6 to strength from the shape shift. so a 14 str druid would be a 26 strength huge animal)
There could be a sentence in the rules surpass the natural stats for an average animal with his class feature bonuses ( so we wouldnt have elephants with 26 dex)
There for the Druid would REALLY be the actual animal he wild shaped into by the time he gets to 18-20th level. And theoretically could stay like that permenatly at 20th level. (with wild shape at will)
Maybe at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 they could get an extra +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, and Con while wild shaped.This is a pretty solid idea... any others along this line. Adding abilities that happen while wild shaped seems to be an easy way to add perks to this class without overpowering it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The above would only give them a total of +4 to all. I think they need a total of +6 (like the magical belt but only usuable while wild shaped) and there should be a limit that they cannot actually be more dextrous or stronger than the actual form they are taking (otherwise we'd be wild shaping into mice and getting +6 to strength at 20th level, even with the negative shift to strength for becomming a mouse the +6 would throw the strength way off)
After all we are trying to mimic the actual physical characteristics of the animal we are shaping into, are we not?
I would say let the +1 start at 10th level , allowing a +6 by 20th (need the boost for things like dragons and T-rex's)
looking at it more closely the druid has several dead levels
why not put +1 S/D/C for wild shaping into each dead level (5,7,11,17,19)
and I always thought thousand faces was redundant with wild shape (If you can become any animal your size you should be default become any humanoid your size) so put another +1 at 13th level for atotal of +6 (do what you want with thousand faces, but I think It should be rolled into wild shape as a paragraph and not waited for until 13th level.
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I like the proposed attribute bonuses to wild shape. I wouldn't hand them out before level 14, though. The druid gets plenty of powerful and useful wildshape abilities till level 12, so handing out this bonuses to early would do little to keep the characters in class. The uneven class levels aren't empty as druids gain new spell levels on all of them with the exception of of level 19. They also get stronger and better animal companions.
Also, concerning size and strength, the smallest creatures druids can wildshape in have about the size a housecat. And I don't think a character who transforms into an amazingly strong cat isn't that much more unrealistic than a character transforming into a normal one ...
How about giving the druid a feat slot that he could distribute each time he takes a new form? He could use it to take feats like improved natural weapon or improved natural armor he otherwise couldn't qualify for easily. The list would have to be rather limited, though, to stop druids from using it to gain feats like natural spell.
And a level 20 druid should gain the shapechanger subtype. They are masters of shapeshifting after all.
And another thought to fill in higher levels -- give druids Multiattack and/or Improved Natural Attack as bonus feats.
Talking to physical stat increases while wildshaping... is that going to be a static +4 (or +6) to all physical stats?
I would prefer to see a floating pool that totals no more then +6. Perhaps even limit it to being distrusted in +2 lots. For example a Druid of 16 strength (not unreasonable for melee shaping druid) they could put all +6 into strength and get to 28, two points off an elephant. Or they could put +4 Str and +2 Dex when becoming a Dire Lion. Obviously they are assigned at when taking a new form.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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And another thought to fill in higher levels -- give druids Multiattack and/or Improved Natural Attack as bonus feats.
Or give them a choice of bonus feats from a list, similar to monks and rangers. That list could include your examples and more, and be along the lines of:
Multiattack, improved natural attack (claw, bite, gore, slam), weapon focus (claw, bite, gore, slam), blind fight (to simulate animal senses)
I find it interesting that it seems that encumbrance's substantial increases by build (quadruped) and size have been forgotten about.
At STR 18 in wild shape, to use an above example, a Medium humanoid has a light load of 100 lbs. The effects of size are
- Large = 200 lbs
- Huge = 400 lbs
Now, wild shaping into a quadrupedal form - such as an elephant - has the following increases in carrying capacity for light load:
- Medium size 150 lbs
- Large size 300 lbs
- Huge size 600 lbs.
Multiply across the board by x2 for Medium loads and x3 for Heavy loads.
An elephant normally, as a Huge animal, has a 30 STR. It's light load is [(133 x4 =) 532 x6 Huge quadruped =] 3,192 lbs; its medium load is 6,384 lbs and its heavy load is 9,600 lbs. Just for comparative purposes.
Oops, I was going to mention that. Good point to bring that up Turin the Mad.
It should also be noted that a creature's own weight is not taken into account when figuring out its current load. An elephant that has been reduced to a strength of 1 would still move around as normal if it wasn't carrying anything more then 18 lbs. A druid with a 7 strength (13 as elephant) could still likely have another player as rider without to much difficultly.
Oops, I was going to mention that. Good point to bring that up Turin the Mad.
It should also be noted that a creature's own weight is not taken into account when figuring out its current load. An elephant that has been reduced to a strength of 1 would still move around as normal if it wasn't carrying anything more then 18 lbs. A druid with a 7 strength (13 as elephant) could still likely have another player as rider without to much difficultly.
so to have a 13 str elephant, what could possibly be the purpose for being an elephant? Seeing as a natural elephant has a str of 30?
It seems really off and kinda dumb to even shapeshift into an elephant.As a comment to an earlier post in the thread, I remember something about druids being of the shape shifter subtype and therefor lycanthrope bane weapons affecting them as well. I think (but am not sure) that in 1e the +1 sword/+3 vs lycanthropes worked against lycanthropes, dopplegangers, druids or anything that shape changes?
Anyway I guess Ive always just carried that assumption along, since then, although I cant specifically remember reading it in any recent rulebooks.
Oops, I was going to mention that. Good point to bring that up Turin the Mad.
It should also be noted that a creature's own weight is not taken into account when figuring out its current load. An elephant that has been reduced to a strength of 1 would still move around as normal if it wasn't carrying anything more then 18 lbs. A druid with a 7 strength (13 as elephant) could still likely have another player as rider without to much difficultly.
so to have a 13 str elephant, what could possibly be the purpose for being an elephant? Seeing as a natural elephant has a str of 30?
It seems really off and kinda dumb to even shapeshift into an elephant.As a comment to an earlier post in the thread, I remember something about druids being of the shape shifter subtype and therefor lycanthrope bane weapons affecting them as well. I think (but am not sure) that in 1e the +1 sword/+3 vs lycanthropes worked against lycanthropes, dopplegangers, druids or anything that shape changes?
Anyway I guess Ive always just carried that assumption along, since then, although I cant specifically remember reading it in any recent rulebooks.
I do believe that you are correct regarding druids acquiring the [Shapechanger] subtype when they acquire the wild shape class feature.
I do not know what an acceptable solution would be for the "I've wild shaped into an elephant but I can only carry a maximum load of 1/6th the vanilla creatures'" dilemma.
Perhaps when wild shaped into Large or Huge forms, a druid gains the +8 or +16 size bumps (from Medium to Large and Medium to Huge, respectively) to STR only for purposes of determining carrying capacity and lifting/dragging?
This could dodge the dilemma of the dev team wanting to reign in combat abuses without making the use of the class feature to remove obstacles or haul out large hoards ineffective.
Maybe at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 they could get an extra +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, and Con while wild shaped.This is a pretty solid idea... any others along this line. Adding abilities that happen while wild shaped seems to be an easy way to add perks to this class without overpowering it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yay! Also, consider turning the polomorph ability bonuses into size bonuses rather than enhancement bonuses, or maybe a mix of both.
RE: The Encumbrance suggestion, I think Wildshape needs to follow all the normal rules that other Size-Changing spells follow, and as far as I know, Size Bonuses DO apply fully to Wildshaped Druids just like Enlarge. If Size Category is limited by level, it seems easy to balance to level-appropriateness.
As others have said, What is the point in Wildshaping into an Elephant or T-Rex if the resultant stats aren't even close? If that's going to be the outcome, I'd rather just have Elephant/T-Rex TAKEN OFF THE LIST if they're deemed to be overly powerful. Likewise, I feel that the Stat Bonuses should NOT be Enhancement bonuses: You REALLY are in the form of a T-Rex, you have it's physical muscles and weigh the same amount as one. SUPERNATURAL Creatures could plausibly have their normal STR derived from SUPERNATURAL "Enhancement", but all of the Wildshape forms are NATURAL Creatures wholely powered by muscles. (So for non-Druid Polymorph, Supernatural Forms could possibly have a Su Enhancement listed which doesn't stack with other Enhancements...?)
It just seems there could be other UNIQUE "trade offs" to Wildshape (or simply cap the upper-end forms) instead of subverting the definition of Bonus Types in a ends-justifies-the-means approach.
For one, Wildshape could reduce by half any physical stat Enhancements (or ALL Stats!) on you: +5 cost/spell level for +2 effect!
Enhancement Items could not work if previously worn: You could remove them all and re-attach them, but that drastically reduces their usability on short-notice, or when shifting BETWEEN forms mid-battle.
I recognize that a decent amount of thought was put into shifting from the "you become the animal in all aspects" paradigm to "you gain X Stat bonuses and certain Special Qualities", but fundamentally, if someone is supposed to be turning into an animal, they SHOULD FUNCTION just like that animal. Instead of nerfing the form itself (which doesn't seem like the real problem, or if it is, should be removed from the lists), why not nerf the methods that buff the animal forms, such as how I suggested? Additionally, I don't see why Wildshape shouldn't be part of the Druid's "Compromise", i.e. between Domains (they should get two if they choose this), Animal Companion, or Wildshaping. Wildshaping could still be available to those who don't choose it with Spells.
Besides the "Large & Strong" Melee Brutes, forms with Special Attacks (Poison, etc) are really the biggest problem. These simply need a guideline putting them at higher tiers, even off all the charts if their abilities are so powerful. I guess thematically/ flavor-wise, it wouldn't be so unreasonable for a Wizard or Sorceror to take on a form that wasn't really equal to the real thing (why not be a pretend-Pit Fiend at low levels - you can't equal it's true abilities but you LOOK like one), but for a Druid to be "simulating" real Animals with less than their actual physical abilities just feels off to me.
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Well, one of the benefits of turning into a larger creatures is an abnormal amount of damage if you drop on other people. A dire bear, a creatures druids should be able to shape into at 6th level will deal about 20d6 of damage when he drops from a height of 10 ft. on another creature, himself taking only 1d6 of damage. The bear weights 8000 lbs, 2000 more than the large earth elemental, making him probably the densest material known to mankind ...
The problem is, if the ability bonuses get to good, wild shape would again become to powerful. Then variables like the duration would have to be drastically reduced, reducing the general flair of this class feature. If the bonuses were to be changed into something other than enhancement bonuses, druids would again be free to combine wild shape with spells like 'Bite of the ...', creating monstrous ability scores and recreating druidzilla.
I don't see a reason to limit a druid from taking a form that is underpowered or mismatched. Taking the Elephant example again a human or halfling druid will only move 30 - 20 ft. instead of the normal 40, with is an under par strength any different? But I would have thought most of these issues related to the *shape spells would have been brought up in class or spell sections, considering this extends beyond the druid to anyone using these spells to change shape.
Awesome Jadeite, you'd likely fit in well with my local group. They love finding reasons to use falling damage as an attack form. It's almost becoming a kind of art for them.
-The druid can only wildshape into creatures for which his wildshaped physical ability scores match or exceed. So if the druid doesn't end up with a minimum Str of 30, he can't turn into a standard adult elephant (although he could certainly shape into a younger version, possibly a Medium elephant).
If an increasing enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, Con is given throughout the level progression, the druid gains access to more creatures as a result.
This makes much more sense than the current Beta.
In otherwords, Gloves of Ogre Strength are useful because they ENABLE the strong form in the first place, instead of stacking. You can't take them off, and put them on in Wildshape, because then you wouldn't qualify for the form (as an example). Inherently balanced, and it doesn't mess up the Bonus Types. This still leaves superior Attack Forms and Special Qualities, which really just need to be more tightly reigned in, by giving guidelines for levels they're available at (the standard lists are generally fine, but everyone likes to go off them). You just can't take a form that has an Ability not appropriate to your level. ("It's against Nature" ;-) )-The druid could follow a "wild path" just as a cleric has domains and a wizard has schools and a sorceror has bloodlines. For example:
Canine - Dog >>> Wolf >>> Dire Wolf
Ursine - Black Bear >>> Polar Bear >>> Dire Bear
Avian - eagle, hawk >>> condor, great eagle >>> Roc, Dire Eagle
This is interesting, and certainly builds on the new Animal Companion rules, but I'm not sure if it's really needed. I think your first proposal (needing to match a Creature's Stats thru natural Stat + Enhancements + Druid Level-based bonus before being able to choose that form) is all that's necessary.
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Awesome Jadeite, you'd likely fit in well with my local group. They love finding reasons to use falling damage as an attack form. It's almost becoming a kind of art for them.
I rather dislike the rules for falling objects. They are too easily abusable and rather strange. In 3.5, an enlarged dire bear would deal 320d6 of damage by dropping on a creature, enough to kill the tarrasque. A colossal monstrosity, crushed by one huge bear. Considering that even a colossal dragons crush attack would only deal 4d8 of damage, this is just broken. The best solution is probably simply disallowing such attacks to allow only creatures with the crush maneuver to make such drop attacks (and then only dealing the much lower crush damage). Or it could be seen as a bull rush from above, using the normal rules. But this should probably discussed in a new thread.
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Director of Games
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Hey there everybody,
Lets not get derailed by falling damage rules (which need some work) or the spells in the Polymorph school (which I think are close to final, truth be told, I find it more valuable to the game to have a balanced system that a totally realistic one in this rare case).
This is not really the forum for either one of these discussions. Unless of course, you consider falling damage to be a part of high level play... which is why it is a loophole that I plan to close.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
...It does seem that Enhancement Bonus Items & Buffs ARE a part of high-level play, though
(and interface with Druid Wildshaping as a Class Feature)
/shrug
Ahhh the post monster giveth and he taketh away!!
To sum up:
I think I was trying to say now what has been said more clearly, A druid who only gets a 13 str when shaping into a elephant doesnt meet the minimum requirement to BE an elephant and there for CANT shift into one.
But there should be a mechanic alloted as the druid levels that lets him "qualify" for larger shapes.
also I like the idea of chosing an "animal affinity" or path (lets say ursine) which gives a druid who is changing into animals of that sort a boost, so that they "qualify" for shapes earlier on, as long as they fit in the "group"
By 18th level the mechanic should allow a druid to become just about anything and 20th should be a "rule breaker" allowing him to become anything and everything regardless of "qualifying" for the shape.
The end result is druids who have some specialized groups of animals they can change into (they should be able to get more than one as they level) where their "plus pool" is higher for the "in category animals" but they can still change into anything (as long as they "qualify for the shape")
If the druid shapes into an animal that is easy for him to qualify for, say a wolf, and he has extra pluses in his pool, he could talior make a wolf form that was really stong, really dextrous, huge hit points, extra attacks or some other mechanic of "buying" bonuses with his point pool.
Should work similar I guess to rage points.
I also like the idea of druids being able to do hybrid forms with extra points in the pool, effective becoming "Wear" wolves (pun intended) or other lycanthropic-like hybrid forms that would allow the druid to use his increased "animal" stats in a humanoid like form.
One more thing to add seeing as people are fond of the elephant analogy. At level 20th carrying and transporting look and equipment should be the least of your worries. If you don't have a Hewards Handy Haversack (sticking with the good names, not the boring ones a'la Spell Compendium *crosses arms and harumphs all stubborn like*) or a bag of holding by 20th level then:
1. You're DM hates you.
2. You have something better.
3. You're playing Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes
4. You're playing some other low magic campaign
or
5. Someone, somewhere, got stupid.
Or maybe I'm just coo coo.
As for the perks for Wildshape, I'm all for that, I remember hearing something about fighters getting bonuses for taking fighter feats, why not have something similar for Druids. Shapeshifting is their schtick so why not let them get perks for it at higher levels. Though I still say this renders Master of Many Forms useless :-P
Also... why not toss in Beast Shape IV somewhere between 12th and 20th? Hell, make it a 19th level ability or something. Surely that can't be so powerful that it would tip the balance for high level play too terribly.
Also... why not toss in Beast Shape IV somewhere between 12th and 20th? Hell, make it a 19th level ability or something. Surely that can't be so powerful that it would tip the balance for high level play too terribly.
Aye, I can see that - or perhaps druids, starting at 5th level and developing through 20th+, druids can elect to either (a) shapeshift [wild shaping path]; (b) spellcasting [emphasizing summoned allies and the druid's elemental magic purview] or (c) have a balance of the two that is measurably not as good as either of the stronger two facets.
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Hey there everybody,
Lets not get derailed by falling damage rules (which need some work) or the spells in the Polymorph school (which I think are close to final, truth be told, I find it more valuable to the game to have a balanced system that a totally realistic one in this rare case).
Giving druids ability bonuses or some feat that apply to wild shape should help. The new wild shape rules work, so I see little need to change them. THe only problem was their frontloadedness, giving druids some additional bonuses to wild shape at higher levels should eliminate that problem.
So, +1 to all physical ability scores while using wild shape at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 and the ability to gain feats like improved natural attack or multiattack at levels 17 or 19 should work fine.
The level 20 class feature should have an unlimited duration. Mechanically, it should make little difference if thr duration is infinite or simply an at will power that lasts 20 hours. But it seems more fitting to a druid who decides to live as an animal for some time.
This is not really the forum for either one of these discussions. Unless of course, you consider falling damage to be a part of high level play... which is why it is a loophole that I plan to close.
I'm happy to hear that, those rules always bugged me.
One more thing to add seeing as people are fond of the elephant analogy. At level 20th carrying and transporting look and equipment should be the least of your worries. If you don't have a Hewards Handy Haversack (sticking with the good names, not the boring ones a'la Spell Compendium *crosses arms and harumphs all stubborn like*) or a bag of holding by 20th level then:
1. You're DM hates you.
2. You have something better.
3. You're playing Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes
4. You're playing some other low magic campaign
or
5. Someone, somewhere, got stupid.Or maybe I'm just coo coo.
As for the perks for Wildshape, I'm all for that, I remember hearing something about fighters getting bonuses for taking fighter feats, why not have something similar for Druids. Shapeshifting is their schtick so why not let them get perks for it at higher levels. Though I still say this renders Master of Many Forms useless :-P
The issue is, you should be able to do what the animal you shape into does (at least at higher levels) i.e. run as fast as a cheetah, be as strong as an elephant or T-Rex. Not how to get gold off the hill.
On that note, we do not allow haversacks or portable holes or bags of holding in our world.
We have once seen a bag of holding as a unique item.
This makes for more fun an ingenuity for accquiring the wealth rather than sucking up treasure with a dimensional vaccum.
We have to hire porters, buy pack mules, etc to get our gold and other weighty treasures out.
If Thorin and Company could have just bagged up Smaugs treasure under the mountain and skee-daddled through the secret door, the battle of the five armies would never have happened, eh?
It makes it more fun for us with no dimensional freebies for carrying stuff.
But like I said, its having true animal stats and abilities that are important not carrying treasure.
Every bird a druid shapes into automatically gets fly, which arguably is a pretty powerful thing. Would it be any good to be a flightless swallow? or eagle?
Well its not good to be an elephant with a 13 str either.
Edit IVE had halfings with more str than that!
I'm happy to hear that, those rules always bugged me.
This is not really the forum for either one of these discussions. Unless of course, you consider falling damage to be a part of high level play... which is why it is a loophole that I plan to close.
I'm not so happy, although I guess the depends on how it gets closed. The only missing aspect to me is some kind of attack roll or savings throw when it is turned against a creature. At higher level play you have the option of more things(creatures) flying and a corresponding increase in the number things falling out of the sky for one reason or another. It also isn't just a player tactic to game the system, using falling objects is also a probable tactic for larger flying creatures. Giants riding Rocs, dropping boulders comes to mind.
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Director of Games
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The issue is, you should be able to do what the animal you shape into does (at least at higher levels) i.e. run as fast as a cheetah, be as strong as an elephant or T-Rex. Not how to get gold off the hill.
On that note, we do not allow haversacks or portable holes or bags of holding in our world.
We have once seen a bag of holding as a unique item.
This makes for more fun an ingenuity for accquiring the wealth rather than sucking up treasure with a dimensional vaccum.We have to hire porters, buy pack mules, etc to get our gold and other weighty treasures out.
If Thorin and Company could have just bagged up Smaugs treasure under the mountain and skee-daddled through the secret door, the battle of the five armies would never have happened, eh?
It makes it more fun for us with no dimensional freebies for carrying stuff.But like I said, its having true animal stats and abilities that are important not carrying treasure.
Every bird a druid shapes into automatically gets fly, which arguably is a pretty powerful thing. Would it be any good to be...
I would not hold your breath for ability scores that match the form you turn into. This was the most broken facet of the old rules and one that I do not care to bring back into the old system. And your Str 13 elephant started out with Str 7, which is pretty weak, making for a pretty weak elephant (comparatively). I am not saying that this is a perfect system, but it is far more balanced than the old one, which allowed for all sorts of insanity.
The new spells allow for some pretty close approximations of many of the common creatures you might see, while still keeping some balance with other spells and abilities.
That said, I am all for the druid getting a bit more out of the deal, but full stat conversion is just not it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The issue is, you should be able to do what the animal you shape into does (at least at higher levels) i.e. run as fast as a cheetah, be as strong as an elephant or T-Rex. Not how to get gold off the hill.
On that note, we do not allow haversacks or portable holes or bags of holding in our world.
We have once seen a bag of holding as a unique item.
This makes for more fun an ingenuity for accquiring the wealth rather than sucking up treasure with a dimensional vaccum.We have to hire porters, buy pack mules, etc to get our gold and other weighty treasures out.
If Thorin and Company could have just bagged up Smaugs treasure under the mountain and skee-daddled through the secret door, the battle of the five armies would never have happened, eh?
It makes it more fun for us with no dimensional freebies for carrying stuff.But like I said, its having true animal stats and abilities that are important not carrying treasure.
Every bird a druid shapes into automatically gets fly, which arguably is a pretty powerful thing. Would it be any good to be...
I would not hold your breath for ability scores that match the form you turn into. This was the most broken facet of the old rules and one that I do not care to bring back into the old system. And your Str 13 elephant started out with Str 7, which is pretty weak, making for a pretty weak elephant (comparatively). I am not saying that this is a perfect system, but it is far more balanced than the old one, which allowed for all sorts of insanity.
The new spells allow for some pretty close approximations of many of the common creatures you might see, while still keeping some balance with other spells and abilities.
That said, I am all for the druid getting a bit more out of the deal, but full stat conversion is just not it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hallelujah for that. The "you get the stats of what you turn into" aspect of polymorph/WS was the part that just kept getting more broken the more monster books came out, with more corner cases, more inflated stats, more egregious (Ex) abilities. That mess is well put in the ground, and the new system may not be perfect but it's a darn sight better.
I'd like to add my vote to giving Druids something to the effect of [Enhanced Wildshape] at higher levels (16, 18, 20 possibly?). It is a flavorful idea that follows and expands upon the class abilities. I also like the floating pool idea but like mentioned earlier that could lead to some funky stat exploitations [Wow, that mouse did bite Fred's leg off, who coulda guessed?]. Possibly do it along the lines of "choose from Str, Dex, Con, and Nat AC at each of those levels and when you shift forms the bonus is increased by an additional +2(or the negative is decreased depending on the shape) to whatever you selected"? To keep things from getting out of hand each selection could be made only once. Giving them a bonus that will stack with all the others just allows them to stack everything up and get out of hand again... Counter productive to the change that was made.
Now for the devil advocate part of the post. We are still dealing with a full caster class that has a full progression animal companion, they don't need a great deal more, a stat bonus for those last levels is a perfect reason to take all the levels of druid. I am against the handing out of feats for the Druid for that reason. Pathfinder has given characters more feats in general, the druid already qualifies for things like improved natural attack and multi-attack when wild shaped, if you can't fit those into the Druid at higher levels (let alone lower mid if you are doing a shifting melee type) I'd be wondering why not. 3.5E builds did it with fewer feats.
Also the suggestion about using a smaller version of an animal was something old wildshape didn't do (with good reason) and I'd caution against opening that bag up at this time.
The issue is, you should be able to do what the animal you shape into does (at least at higher levels) i.e. run as fast as a cheetah, be as strong as an elephant or T-Rex. Not how to get gold off the hill.
On that note, we do not allow haversacks or portable holes or bags of holding in our world.
We have once seen a bag of holding as a unique item.
This makes for more fun an ingenuity for accquiring the wealth rather than sucking up treasure with a dimensional vaccum.We have to hire porters, buy pack mules, etc to get our gold and other weighty treasures out.
If Thorin and Company could have just bagged up Smaugs treasure under the mountain and skee-daddled through the secret door, the battle of the five armies would never have happened, eh?
It makes it more fun for us with no dimensional freebies for carrying stuff.But like I said, its having true animal stats and abilities that are important not carrying treasure.
Every bird a druid shapes into automatically gets fly, which arguably is a pretty powerful thing. Would it be any good to be...
I would not hold your breath for ability scores that match the form you turn into. This was the most broken facet of the old rules and one that I do not care to bring back into the old system. And your Str 13 elephant started out with Str 7, which is pretty weak, making for a pretty weak elephant (comparatively). I am not saying that this is a perfect system, but it is far more balanced than the old one, which allowed for all sorts of insanity.
The new spells allow for some pretty close approximations of many of the common creatures you might see, while still keeping some balance with other spells and abilities.
That said, I am all for the druid getting a bit more out of the deal, but full stat conversion is just not it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
dont you think it was broken because the ability to turn into something like an elephant occured at 8th level (way too early)and something like that at 20th level would barely be out of whack in comparison to mages casting wish?
Of course turning into a Trex would still over shadow fighters.
But then agin if you can summon the darn thing, or charm it to fight for you, how is turning into one any more unbalanced, it still exists.
Basically as long as you dont have MORE str, con, dex that the natural creature, is itnot the same as if you had it as an animal companion, summon or charmed monster?
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Director of Games
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dont you think it was broken because the ability to turn into something like an elephant occured at 8th level (way too early)and something like that at 20th level would barely be out of whack in comparison to mages casting wish?
Of course turning into a Trex would still over shadow fighters.
But then agin if you can summon the darn thing, or charm it to fight for you, how is turning into one any more unbalanced, it still exists.
Basically as long as you dont have MORE str, con, dex that the natural creature, is itnot the same as if you had it as an animal companion, summon or charmed monster?
Sure, you can summon a T-Rex, but the monster does not have all the abilities of a PC, including feats, class abilities, spell effects and magic items. It is just a T-Rex and as such is a quantifiable component. Giving PCs a spell that could equate to +20 Str, stacked on top of a mountain of other abilities, makes this option way too good. Spells that enhance your character now follow a relatively set pattern of advancement, making them easy to balance against one another. The old polymorph (and wild shape) was the fly in that mildly smooth ointment that really broke the system. There is a reason it was errata'd about a dozen times and banned from most org play settings.
Hope that helps... the polymorph spells will not be reverting to the way they were. They were just too disruptive.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
dont you think it was broken because the ability to turn into something like an elephant occured at 8th level (way too early)and something like that at 20th level would barely be out of whack in comparison to mages casting wish?
Of course turning into a Trex would still over shadow fighters.
But then agin if you can summon the darn thing, or charm it to fight for you, how is turning into one any more unbalanced, it still exists.
Basically as long as you dont have MORE str, con, dex that the natural creature, is itnot the same as if you had it as an animal companion, summon or charmed monster?Sure, you can summon a T-Rex, but the monster does not have all the abilities of a PC, including feats, class abilities, spell effects and magic items. It is just a T-Rex and as such is a quantifiable component. Giving PCs a spell that could equate to +20 Str, stacked on top of a mountain of other abilities, makes this option way too good. Spells that enhance your character now follow a relatively set pattern of advancement, making them easy to balance against one another. The old polymorph (and wild shape) was the fly in that mildly smooth ointment that really broke the system. There is a reason it was errata'd about a dozen times and banned from most org play settings.
Hope that helps... the polymorph spells will not be reverting to the way they were. They were just too disruptive.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I see , I guess that makes sense, I was thinking of it more, linear rather than thinking about all the other non physical things stacked.
If you think about it, if you give a +4 for 20th level on the Physical abilites. A half-orc druid (who could easily have a 20 strength) by then would get his +6 for size and his +4 for class feature and then be able to be a 30 str elephant.
So in theory, at 20th level, it would still be possible. which is all I was really looking for (not at 8th)
I would still rule in my own game a 13 str elephant could either not exist (the druid simply cant become that creature) or it would simply lie there gasping for air like a 600 lb man on the couch.
I see , I guess that makes sense, I was thinking of it more, linear rather than thinking about all the other non physical things stacked.
If you think about it, if you give a +4 for 20th level on the Physical abilites. A half-orc druid (who could easily have a 20 strength) by then would get his +6 for size and his +4 for class feature and then be able to be a 30 str elephant.
So in theory, at 20th level, it would still be possible. which is all I was really looking for (not at 8th)
I would still rule in my own game a 13 str elephant could either not exist (the druid simply cant become that creature) or it would simply lie there gasping for air like a 600 lb man on the couch.
Just to clear up some possible confusion on my part, Beast shape X spells do not give you the size bonus, they give an enhancement bonus based on the size of the creature correct? Or was it changed at some point during the playtesting? The reason I ask is if it does, that adds quite a bit to the str score of the character that we haven't been taking into account in our games. Our norm has been, if it doesn't spell it out in the description we don't add it in.
Just to clear up some possible confusion on my part, Beast shape X spells do not give you the size bonus, they give an enhancement bonus based on the size of the creature correct? Or was it changed at some point during the playtesting? The reason I ask is if it does, that adds quite a bit to the str score of the character that we haven't been taking into account in our games. Our norm has been, if it doesn't spell it out in the description we don't add it in.
You do NOT get Size bonuses when using the Shape spells - you just get the Enhancement Bonuses that are listed in the spell description. It's the only way to balance these spells.
Ummm... Can't limiting the Sizes you can transform into also balance the Spell?
It just seems strange to have to define the Size Bonuses as "these modifiers apply depending on your Size, unless you are that Size because of a Polymorph spell/ability" ...Not to mention an Elder Dragon RETAINING their huge Size Bonuses when Polymorphed in Human form. /shrug
Ummm... Can't limiting the Sizes you can transform into also balance the Spell?
Not really, because then you wouldn't be able to transform into anything cool. You'd just be able to transform into Small and Medium creatures.
It just seems strange to have to define the Size Bonuses as "these modifiers apply depending on your Size, unless you are that Size because of a Polymorph spell/ability" ...Not to mention an Elder Dragon RETAINING their huge Size Bonuses when Polymorphed in Human form. /shrug
Yeah, it's strange that an Elder Dragon would retain its Size bonuses to their ability scores when they transform into smaller creatures. But the Shape spells would simply be too potent if you allowed Humans to start adding points to their ability scores when they scaled up their Size. It's the best compromise available short of removing Wild Shape and its associated effects from the game.
Ummm... Can't limiting the Sizes you can transform into also balance the Spell?Not really, because then you wouldn't be able to transform into anything cool. You'd just be able to transform into Small and Medium creatures.
Right, but you can limit Wildshape by Druid Level and Polymorph Spells by Spell Level, ensuring the max Size is level appropriate so you CAN become Elephants or T-Rexes or "Cool Stuff" at appropriate/higher levels. ...Any Enhancement bonus on top could be scaled back since it's no longer "standing in" for a Size Bonus. How wouldn't that balance it? It also has the side-benefit of not breaking the consistency of Size effects.