Druids - High levels offer to little


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Sueki Suezo wrote:
Yeah, it's strange that an Elder Dragon would retain its Size bonuses to their ability scores when they transform into smaller creatures. But the Shape spells would simply be too potent if you allowed Humans to start adding points to their ability scores when they scaled up their Size. It's the best compromise available short of removing Wild Shape and its associated effects from the game.

You are misunderstanding how Size bonuses work. Enlarge Person and Righteous Might grant fixed 'size' bonuses as part of their effect. This is not the same as the 'bonus' an advanced creatre receives for switching size categories.

An Ancient Red Dragon does not have any size bonuses. It simply has a racial ability score.


Ross Byers wrote:
Sueki Suezo wrote:
Yeah, it's strange that an Elder Dragon would retain its Size bonuses to their ability scores when they transform into smaller creatures. But the Shape spells would simply be too potent if you allowed Humans to start adding points to their ability scores when they scaled up their Size. It's the best compromise available short of removing Wild Shape and its associated effects from the game.

You are misunderstanding how Size bonuses work. Enlarge Person and Righteous Might grant fixed 'size' bonuses as part of their effect. This is not the same as the 'bonus' an advanced creatre receives for switching size categories.

An Ancient Red Dragon does not have any size bonuses. It simply has a racial ability score.

I understand how Enlarge Person and Righteous Might work.

What he's saying is that if you have an Ancient Red Dragon that turns into a Human, you should apply negative modifiers to its ability scores for its Size reduction as per the Size Increase Table from the 3.5 SRD. So you'd look at all of the modifiers for changing size from Gargantuan to Medium and apply them to the Dragon to determine his new stats in his new form.

I am saying that even though this does make logical sense, allowing PCs to adjust their stats in this way when using Wild Shape to transform into larger creatures is incredibly imbalanced. Changing from a Medium Creature to a Huge Creature and applying the stat adjustments from the 3.5 SRD Size Increase would give a Wild Shaped PC a +16 STR, -4 DEX, +8 CON, +5 Natural Armor, and a -2 to AC/Attack. This is in no way balanced whenever compared to other stat boosting effects in the game, and this is why Wild Shape doesn't grant any kind of Size Bonuses at all whenever you change into larger forms - it just grants you a flat, balanced set of Enhancement Bonuses to your ability scores.


Sueki Suezo wrote:
What he's saying is that if you have an Ancient Red Dragon that turns into a Human, you should apply negative modifiers to its ability scores for its Size reduction as per the Size Increase Table from the 3.5 SRD. So you'd look at all of the modifiers for changing size from Gargantuan to Medium and apply them to the Dragon to determine his new stats in his new form.

You do indeed do that in Pathfinder; here's the appropriate rule under the Polymorph subschool section:

"If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller
than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability
scores to one of these two sizes using the following table
before applying the bonuses
granted by the polymorph
spell. If the creature's new size is the same as its previous
size, do not make these adjustments.
Creature's Size Str Dex Con New Size
Fine +6 -6 -- Small
Diminutive +6 -4 -- Small
Tiny +4 -2 -- Small
Large -4 +2 -2 Medium
Huge -8 +4 -4 Medium
Gargantuan -12 +4 -6 Medium
Colossal -16 +4 -8 Medium "


hogarth wrote:
Sueki Suezo wrote:
What he's saying is that if you have an Ancient Red Dragon that turns into a Human, you should apply negative modifiers to its ability scores for its Size reduction as per the Size Increase Table from the 3.5 SRD. So you'd look at all of the modifiers for changing size from Gargantuan to Medium and apply them to the Dragon to determine his new stats in his new form.

You do indeed do that in Pathfinder; here's the appropriate rule under the Polymorph subschool section:

"If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller
than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability
scores to one of these two sizes using the following table
before applying the bonuses
granted by the polymorph
spell. If the creature's new size is the same as its previous
size, do not make these adjustments.
Creature's Size Str Dex Con New Size
Fine +6 -6 -- Small
Diminutive +6 -4 -- Small
Tiny +4 -2 -- Small
Large -4 +2 -2 Medium
Huge -8 +4 -4 Medium
Gargantuan -12 +4 -6 Medium
Colossal -16 +4 -8 Medium "

I don't have my book on hand with me, but I was under the impression that these Size modifiers would NOT apply to characters under the effect of a Wild Shape or Beast Shape spell, and that they would only receive the Enhancement Bonuses provided by the spell.


Sueki Suezo wrote:
I don't have my book on hand with me, but I was under the impression that these Size modifiers would NOT apply to characters under the effect of a Wild Shape or Beast Shape spell, and that they would only receive the Enhancement Bonuses provided by the spell.

Why not? Beast Shape is a polymorph subschool spell, isn't it?


OK one of you Guru's please explain mathematically how this works then:
(according to current beta rules)

8th level druid wildshaping into an elephant
Druid has a 15 str, 12 dex and 14 con

Same druid using beast shape spell to become an elephant (is there a difference)

now a 15th level druid with the same stats again becomming and elephant with wildshape or spell (is there a difference again)

If it scales by level from beast shape, why would it not via wildshape?

some please lay it out Im so confused.


Pendagast wrote:

OK one of you Guru's please explain mathematically how this works then:

(according to current beta rules)

8th level druid wildshaping into an elephant
Druid has a 15 str, 12 dex and 14 con

Same druid using beast shape spell to become an elephant (is there a difference)

now a 15th level druid with the same stats again becomming and elephant with wildshape or spell (is there a difference again)

It all works exactly the same, unless the druid is bigger than size Medium or smaller than size Small (e.g. a grig druid or an ogre druid):

21 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con

Dark Archive

Druids getting additional wild shape features at high level has nearly nothing to do with them being unrealisticly weak elephants. Its about making them stay in class. Wild shape was one of the druids main class features in 3.5 besides spellcasting and the animal companion. With the animal companion and wild shape changed a druid has little reason not to enter a prestige class with full divine progression after levels 12 or 15. Therefore the their need to be some additional wild shape features to sweeten the choice to remain a druid till level 20.
Druids becoming more realistic elephants via wild shape is an additional bonus of such a rule change at best. The 3.5 wild shape rules were extremely broken. The Pathfinder ones aren't and I rather like them. So in my opinion there is no need to change the way wild shape works, it just needs to get better after level 12.


Jadeite wrote:

Druids getting additional wild shape features at high level has nearly nothing to do with them being unrealisticly weak elephants. Its about making them stay in class. Wild shape was one of the druids main class features in 3.5 besides spellcasting and the animal companion. With the animal companion and wild shape changed a druid has little reason not to enter a prestige class with full divine progression after levels 12 or 15. Therefore the their need to be some additional wild shape features to sweeten the choice to remain a druid till level 20.

Druids becoming more realistic elephants via wild shape is an additional bonus of such a rule change at best. The 3.5 wild shape rules were extremely broken. The Pathfinder ones aren't and I rather like them. So in my opinion there is no need to change the way wild shape works, it just needs to get better after level 12.

someone said earlier in the thread that it beastshape/wildshape scaled with level.

That is what I was asking about because I did not understand it that way.

Wether or not a Druid can shape into an Elephant at higher level IS the issue. Because if you left the core class at level 12, but the druid got bonuses after that, then you couldnt be a realistic elephant or T-Rex. but with a little boost from 12-20 you could, theoretically use those shapes efficently.

as previosuly stated a half orc druid with a 20 strength (which isnt unrealsonabl if the druid wants to use physcially strong/melee shapes) at 20th level, COULD tutn into a typical strength elephant (20 nat str, +6 for size, and +4 for the proposed class feature enhancement we were talking about)

In my mind that would be enough incentive to level up as a druid only.

So although an 8th level gnome druid makes a lowsy elephant or T-Rex, Im ok with that (I dont think they should even be able to take that form yet at 8th level) but it SHOULD be possible to do so as a say 16th-20th level druid.
By then becomming a full strength t-rex or elephant or adult dragon wouldnt be "unbalanced" considering what else you are fighting and what your buddies can do.
Even at 20 th level, the gnome druid with the 7 str would still only have 17 strength as an elephant or T-Rex and would still make a lousy one (which would mean physcial stats are no longer dump stats for players who want to wildshape and melee) and I am totally cool with that as well.

As long as it is "possible" for a high level druid to physcially match a typical T-rex or elephant? I'm happy.

So in my mind the +1 at 12, 14, 16, and 18 would be enough. I still think they could use one more bonzer power at 20th level, like I talked about before, literally being able to "live" as a chosen animal (currently, the druid has to "renew" his form every 20 hours.)

Maybe the druid would have ONE form (eagle, shambling mound, blink dog, whatever) that at 20th level he can keep on indefinately at will?


hogarth wrote:
Sueki Suezo wrote:
I don't have my book on hand with me, but I was under the impression that these Size modifiers would NOT apply to characters under the effect of a Wild Shape or Beast Shape spell, and that they would only receive the Enhancement Bonuses provided by the spell.
Why not? Beast Shape is a polymorph subschool spell, isn't it?

I have my rulebook now, and I will explain accordingly. As per page 159 of the Pathfinder RPG under the Polymorph subschool:

"If a Polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your Armor Class, attack bonus, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."

Since none of the Shape spells do not note this, all you get are the Enhancement Bonuses to your ability scores provided by the spell. You don't gain any Size bonuses (or penalties) to your ability scores.

However, there is a special rule that does allow for your ability scores to be modified by Polymorph spells that do not specifically note that your ability scores are modified (such as the Shape spells):

"If a Polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller then Small or larger then Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the Polymorph spell. If the creature's new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments."

However, the ability score adjustments listed on the table that follows this portion of the rules are NOT identical to the modifiers that you would apply if you used the old 3.5 SRD Size Increase table. Under the old Size Increase table, a Gargantuan Creature that was shrunk to Medium size would lose 24 points of STR in the process. Under the new table, it would only lose 12 points of STR. It also wouldn't gain nearly as much DEX or lose as much CON in the process. This new table doesn't ignore the fact that your ability scores would change if you changed shape and dropped in size, but it doesn't utterly gut your ability scores like the old Size Increase table.


I remember seeing the table, but as all the casters we've had/dealt with so far have been of the small or medium variety (and only the changes in the spell would have occured), it had definitely slipped out of mind. On a positive note like stated before it is not nearly as much of a jump up/down in stats. On a negative note the table should probably be mentioned/referred to in the spell so it isn't missed (ie if the caster is of a size other than small or medium see page XX for additional modifiers - under the base Alter Self/Beast Shape spell). I know it is listed as polymorph school, but the table is in an out of the way place and some not familiar with the rules/book could miss it fairly easily, not to mention new players who might not have had time to read the whole book cover to cover.

On topic, I don't think druids really need to start getting more extras at 12th level. It is still a full caster class, with a full progression animal companion with a ton of utility abilities. While not as strong as it was, it is still way ahead of the game in comparison to other classes. Giving them abilities prior to 16th level still promotes leaving the class for a prestige class (5 level PrC's tend to be prevalent). So to sweeten the deal for playing a full druid I think the abilities should happen after the last possible "cut-off" point. Yeah, they can still PrC out those last 2 or 3 levels but usually they wouldn't get the PrC capstone in that case. Not to mention I really never cared for the "+1" attribute bonus. It is more book keeping because now it matters whether an attribute is even or odd, a "+2" is always just a flat bonus regardless. I mean I understand if you are min/maxi-ing how it is attractive, but I think the even bonus is easier to deal with in game.

As for the 20 hour duration, I'd have to say that is "effectively indefinite". If you can't find a standard action in 20 hours to use your SU ability to stay an animal someone has brought micro managing to a whole new level lol. I don't see anywhere in the ability listing saying you have to switch back to original form. If you are an animal and wildshape to the same form again before the duration is up, it is a simple matter of concentrating for a standard action and renewing the duration at least as I read the ability.


OK, I was slightly confused about the difference between the Size Modifiers for Melee/Maneuvers, which would be based on actual/effective Size (i.e. Polymorphed size), and the Ability Adjustments for Size which aren't Modifiers in the same sense, since they are more "behind the scenes" meta-factors. <this is all so complicated!>

Anyhow, that quote from Beta is somewhat confusing in it's wording: "adjust it's ability scores to ONE OF THESE TWO sizes...". The table indicates which Size you're SUPPOSED to adjust to, but the situation isn't so clear if we follow the guideline "text trumps tables". The wording should probably be changed to "adjust it's ability scores as indicated on the table" or something similar.

...Anyhow, Presumably things are supposed to balance out for Tiny shifting to Diminutive (who first adds STR and subtracts DEX before applying Polymorph Bonus), or Large shifting to Giant (who first adds DEX and subtracts STR & CON before applying Polymorph Bonus).

A wierd side effect is, when non-Small/Medium Casters DO gain the ability to shift into their own Size, they're exempt from adjusting, which (presuming their normal Stats reflect the "behind the scenes" Ability Adjustments for Large/Tiny Races) means their stats in those forms will be better in the "primary" stat (Smaller:DEX/Larger:STR) but weaker in the "secondary" stat (reverse) than Small/Medium Druids... ...I'm just not sure if Large Druids, for example, should be getting a double penalty to their Dex (the first penalty factored into their normal Stats) for shifting into same-size forms...??? (And what's wierd is, this isn't consistent, i.e. it ONLY affects same-size shifts, smaller and larger forms both recieve the "adjustments".)


Quandary wrote:

A wierd side effect is, when non-Small/Medium Casters DO gain the ability to shift into their own Size, they're exempt from adjusting, which (presuming their normal Stats reflect the "behind the scenes" Ability Adjustments for Large/Tiny Races) means their stats in those forms will be better in the "primary" stat (Smaller:DEX/Larger:STR) but weaker in the "secondary" stat (reverse) than Small/Medium Druids... ...I'm just not sure if Large Druids, for example, should be getting a double penalty to their Dex (the first penalty factored into their normal Stats) for shifting into same-size forms...??? (And what's wierd is, this isn't consistent, i.e. it ONLY affects same-size shifts, smaller and larger forms both recieve the "adjustments".)

Yes, this is something that bothers me, too. I even made a post here giving my impressions on this matter, and hoping it's only a case of misleading text (the example speaks of Form of the Dragon, but the mechanics are the same for Wild Shape, too).


The Wraith wrote:
Yes, this is something that bothers me, too. I even made a post here giving my impressions on this matter, and hoping it's only a case of misleading text (the example speaks of Form of the Dragon, but the mechanics are the same for Wild Shape, too).

I looked up your post on that (referencing Form of Dragon), but you slightly goofed on how it works:

Polymorph says the ADJUSTMENTS (i.e. that are given under the Polymorph text) are not applied,
it doesn't say anything about the BONUSES that are described under each Spell.
So your example of the Huge Creature would end up with a STRONGER but LESS DEXTROUS Dragon than the Medium Creature.

...I'm not sure if getting rid of the exemption,
and saying that same-size shifts also are "adjusted" would work better...?

If not that, I'm tempted to say that this system might work better if Stat Adjustments (STR/DEX/CON) for different Sized creatures WERE included within Size Bonuses (there could be other individual adjustments, but a Size Bonus component would be shared amongst same-sized Creatures), and Polymorph/etc could then apply both Enhancement and Size Bonuses, thus being able to "over-write" both Enchantments AND previous Size Bonuses (which would remove the need for "adjustments" while keeping "especially strong" creatures for their race "especially strong" in their new form). ...????


Quandary wrote:

I looked up your post on that (referencing Form of Dragon), but you slightly goofed on how it works:

Polymorph says the ADJUSTMENTS (i.e. that are given under the Polymorph text) are not applied,
it doesn't say anything about the BONUSES that are described under each Spell.
So your example of the Huge Creature would end up with a STRONGER but LESS DEXTROUS Dragon than the Medium Creature.

...I'm not sure if getting rid of the exemption,
and saying that same-size shifts also are "adjusted" would work better...?

The fact is, the sentence is a little ambiguous.

I believe that the rules should work in this way:

Huge creature trying to polymorphing into a Huge Dragon (by spell: +10 Enhancement STR, +8 enhancement CON): base characteristics = STR 18, DEX 6, CON 14

Step 1)(If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table...): use table page 160, STR -8, DEX +4, CON -4 = Statistics STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10

Step 2)(...before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.): add the bonuses from the spell, STR +10, CON +8 = STR 20, DEX 10, CON 18

(the same applies with Wild Shape using the various Beast Shape, Plant Shape and Elemental Body as base guideline for the bonuses granted)

Problem is, the sentence that says "If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments." seems to refer to the whole 'adjust ability scores with the table before applying the bonuses from the spell' stuff, and this is what bothers me, and my example lists a Huge creature that gains little benefits from the spell, if compared to a Medium creature that casts the same spell and that has the same "base" ability scores - 10 STR, 10 DEX, 10 CON - if the table is applied:

Medium creature with STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10 casting Form of Dragon III = Huge Dragon with STR 20, DEX 10, CON 18

Huge creature with STR 18, DEX 6, CON 14 casting Form of the Dragon III = Huge Dragon with STR 20, DEX 10, CON 18 IF applying step 1) and 2)

Huge creature with STR 18, DEX 6, CON 14 casting Form of the Dragon III = Huge Dragon with STR 18, DEX 6, CON 14 IF NOT applying step 1) and 2), but instead "If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments."

Again, I strongly believe that the latter case is NOT correct, but the whole phrasing is... strange a best, and that is my concern.


I hate the post monster T.T

After reading the last few posts I took a look at the monster manual to go over the size charts and look at the monsters that were huge (because that was the example given). I think the poster who was using 18 str for a huge creature might have made a bad choice for the example. The majority of the huge critters had over 20 and it went all the way up to a 43, the lowest I saw scanning through was 17 on an ooze. Magical beasts and animals tended to be on the lower end in general though.

That being said I don't think non small/medium really get the short end of the stick like it was made out in the example. The two things I saw were:
1) Innately a huge creature gets a bigger bonus from the size than the spell gives in general. A huge creature is typically getting a +16 str adjustment (+8 from medium to large, then +8 from large to huge as per MM page 291), the spell is giving a +6 str (as well as applying a penalty of -8 going from huge to medium as per the pathfinder table). So more often than not the creature staying in the same size category will actually have better stats than the spell gives. Obviously some cases might not come out this way but those will probably be the exception not the rule.
2) The table for pathfinder seems to be a partial bonus/penalty for Str and Con, Dex seems to match up on both tables. From colossal to medium the table for the spell shows as a -16, the table from the 3.5 monster manual is showing as +32 innate adjustment. That would mean if a colossal creature shape changed to large size it would lose less strength going to medium size and then gain the set strength from the spell. It would actually be stronger than the natural medium creature to large size via the spell because it doesn't lose as much.

Also the primary strength of the spell wasn't ever meant to be the stats - it was the abilities gained from changing shapes, the movement, the EX abilities and natural attacks that were the real value and utility of the spell. After looking at it, it does make sense and keeps the book keeping down as well so I see what the Paizo crew was doing (I guess) lol.

FYI if you are using the same 10 stats for both the medium creature and huge creature it should be (using Form of the Dragon, I had to edit as I was using beast shape for numbers):

Medium base stats
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10

Huge base stats
Str 26 (10/+8/+8 for size), Dex 6 (10/-2/-2 for size), Con 18(10/+4/+4 for size)

I don't believe that Pathfinder has changed the rules in the MM as of yet (but i could be mistaken) like they have the adjustments for the combat modifiers. You seem to be applying half the bonus from the table in the MM to str and con but the full penalty to dex so I'm kinda confused as to where you are getting the numbers from (wait you were using the table from polymorph, gotcha - pretty sure the table is intended to be used only for the spell not as a replacement for the MM when building critters otherwise they would have called it out as such in the running the game section, or where ever they put the monster creation and conversion rules, no? It would make a BIG impact on stat blocks everywhere). What you would end up with is:

Medium Polymorphed to Huge
Str 20(10+10enh), Dex 10(no mod), Con 18(10+8enh) +8 nat AC and some abilities/natural attacks/etc.

Huge Polymorphed to Huge
Str 26 (no mod), Dex 6(no mod), Con 18(no mod) no AC mod?(but probably has its own nat AC modifier/might let it slide personally though it isn't like they stack) and some abilities/natural attacks/etc.

PFRPG wrote:
"If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments."

There are 2 sets of adjustments, the table and the spells' so I think that your last option is actually the correct one after all. Your numbers were just off in the beginning so it looked more off than it should be.


The fact that I was trying to show is that a creature that happens to have stats that can be brought down to the same of a Medium-sized creature with the appliance of the table on page 160 would have the same statistics of that same Medium-sized creature if polymorphed into a creature; if such a Huge creature however changes shape into a Huge creature without applying such bonuses, he is immensely crippled.

Remember that a Medium-sized creature that changes into a Huge one with a Polymorphing ability does not gain size bonuses from becoming Huge (+16 STR, -4 DEX, +8 CON, +5 Natural Armor), only bonuses granted from the Polymorphing ability itself.

Let's give another example, with Wild Shape (just not to go too far Off-Topic):
imagine an Ogre Druid (not very uncommon, if you ask me) with 14 STR, DEX 8, CON 12 (he's a weakling, OK, but he just happens to have this poor physical scores...)
Imagine that he wants to change into a Large Animal, a Large Plant, and a Large Earth Elemental.
What would be his physical scores, after he Wild-shapes? Based on the incriminated sentence... STR 14, DEX 8, CON 12 ! Whoopeeee!
Want to become a Large Air Elemental (for Dexterity) ? Still STR 14, DEX 8, CON 12 ...
But suddenly, if he becomes a Huge Air Elemental, he uses the conversion table to adjust his physical scores to that of a Medium-sized creature (-4 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON) and then applies the bonuses from Elemental Body IV; first he applies the changes from the table on page 160 (and his scores become STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10), and then he applies the bonuses of a Huge Air Elemental, for a total score of STR 14, DEX 16, CON 10.

A Human Druid with scores of STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10 that takes the same shapes would have:
Large Animal (Wild SHape/Beast Shape II): STR 14, DEX 8, CON 10
Large Plant (Wild SHape/Plant SHape II): STR 14, DEX 10, CON 12
Large Earth Elemental (Wild Shape/Elemental Body III): STR 16, DEX 8, CON 12
Large Air Elemental (Wild Shape/Elemental Body III): STR 12, DEX 14, CON 10
Huge Air Elemental (Wild Shape/Elemental Body IV): STR 14, DEX 16, CON 10

They are both weaklings, but the Human (Medium-sized) applies these bonuses for all forms (a Medium creature DOES apply the bonuses for polymorphing into a Medium creature; the text on page 160 specifically says that "If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium...") and has a larger array of ability scores, while the Large one not (at least, if we apply the last sentence of the paragraph RAW); but I do not truly believe that this was the intention.

Skylancer4 wrote:


Medium Polymorphed to Huge
Str 20(10+10enh), Dex 10(no mod), Con 18(10+8enh) +8 nat AC and some abilities/natural attacks/etc.

Huge Polymorphed to Huge
Str 26 (no mod), Dex 6(no mod), Con 18(no mod) no AC mod?(but probably has its own nat AC modifier/might let it slide personally though it isn't like they stack) and some abilities/natural attacks/etc.

The Huge creature that wants to become a Huge Air Elemental , a Huge Fire Elemental, or a Huge Water Elemental would have the same characteristics for all 3 forms: STR 26, DEX 6, CON 18(good for Earth, very bad for Air). Becoming Large ?

Large Earth Elemental: STR (26 - 8(table*) + 6(El.Body III)) 24, DEX (6 +4 (table*) -2 (El.Body III)) 8, CON (18 - 4 (table*) +2 (El.Body III)) 16
Large Air Elemental: STR (26 - 8(table*) + 2(El.Body III)) 20, DEX (6 +4 (table*) +4 (El.Body III)) 14, CON (18 - 4 (table*) +0 (El.Body III)) 14
Large Fire Elemental: STR (26 - 8(table*) + 0(El.Body III)) 18, DEX (6 +4 (table*) +4 (El.Body III)) 14, CON (18 - 4 (table*) +2 (El.Body III)) 16
...more in line with the forms he is emulating.

*the table we use in this case is that on page 160, not the size-conversion on the SRD

This is the problem (well, a problem IMHO, at least) I was trying to show; I'm sorry if I was not really clear before.


hogarth wrote:
Maybe at levels 14, 16, 18 and 20 they could get an extra +1 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex, and Con while wild shaped.

I like this idea, but maybe is should be +2 enhancement bonus, therefore the character for sure gets a +1 to all the down stream bonuses.

JoelF847 wrote:
hogarth wrote:
And another thought to fill in higher levels -- give druids Multiattack and/or Improved Natural Attack as bonus feats.

Or give them a choice of bonus feats from a list, similar to monks and rangers. That list could include your examples and more, and be along the lines of:

Multiattack, improved natural attack (claw, bite, gore, slam), weapon focus (claw, bite, gore, slam), blind fight (to simulate animal senses)

I like this idea too, but I would not want druids to get too many feats. Maybe two.


The Wraith wrote:
The fact that I was trying to show is that a creature that happens to have stats that can be brought down to the same of a Medium-sized creature with the appliance of the table on page 160 would have the same statistics of that same Medium-sized creature if polymorphed into a creature; if such a Huge creature however changes shape into a Huge creature without applying such bonuses, he is immensely crippled.

Ok, I get your point but the reality is that many of the "typical creatures" (because that is what shape change deals with, the average creature out of MM) you are going to be dealing with as large/huge/etc actually are going to have better stats than that same medium sized creature because the table in pathfinder doesn't penalize as badly as a full scale down of size would (str and con anyways). The medium creature gets +6 str enhancement going into a huge form (and ends up with a 16 if it were a 10 base). The exact same huge creature going into another huge form still has an innate +16 size to str(and probably has a 24 or around there). There is no adding it in nor taking away, it just is part of the creature as built. How is that immensely cripping?? Even with the +6 from the spell the medium creature falls short by alot unless you are talking about a PC, where it will probably be closer if not better (which it should be if the PC is built around that). It isn't crippling unless the creature was crippled or pathetic prior to the spell and the spell shouldn't fix that. If you are a weak pathetic caster, you should still be a weak pathetic caster in a larger form with more options. This, in essence, is what Paizo has said with the side bars and rules as they have changed them. I'm okay with that. I'm sure it will change if enough people complain but I think they are on the right track with this.

The Wraith wrote:

Examples

I think the problem we are running into is, the expectation of what the spell should do. In 3.5 hands down 90% of the time the spell provided better stats and because of that all casters that would be polymorphing/wild shaping would use most physical stats as dump stats. Occurred less often if the character had to play from 1st on to whatever level as they actually had to survive, but if a mid level character was created, the physical stats would be dump stats. It was easy to see why and kinda silly to not optimize a character in that way if you could even. This was part of the "broken/overpowered-ness" of the spell.

Now with Pathfinder they are trying to go back to the "intention" of the shaping changing spells, the utility provided by movement modes, attack options and expanded senses just to name a few. A human character should not be casting Beast Shape I+ for the boost to str(I understand that it does, and I'd have to say it is a "gimme" as chances are low level spell casters won't have great strength scores and small casters->medium form need to be accounted for as well) to change into a medium predator (leopard for instance) to counter the fact that his/her strength is horrible. It should be the climb speed, the natural attacks, scent and maybe low-light vision or later pounce and the various other abilities that open up. If they need to carry more cargo any quadruped form will immediately give a boost and it gets better with size increases. Even with a strength of 10 (total, meaning you started with a 4 str) the heavy load for a huge quadruped creature is 600 lbs. You could easily carry the rest of the party (assuming 4 person) even if the "fighter" is decked out in heavy armor. Now when a medium sized creature (typical PC) shape changes into a larger or smaller something else the spells try to give a taste of what it is like, a portion of what you would have if you really were that creature.
Taking that into consideration we go to the Huge creature you were talking about being crippled. It isn't. It should not be using the shape change spells to "get around" having poor physical stats for its size. If it wants to change into a huge elemental it should be doing it for the fly speed/whirlwind attack, push/earth glide, burn/fire resistance, or the swim/vortex ability as well as being immune to crits/sneak attacks and DR that come with the ability. If a huge creature wants to change to a huge dragon form it shouldn't be to make up for its crappy stats it should be because of the "fly 120 feet (poor), blindsense 60 feet, darkvision 120 feet, a breath weapon, DR 10/magic, frightful presence (DC equal to the DC for this spell), and immunity to one element (of the same type form of the dragon I grants resistance to). You also gain one bite (2d8), two claws (2d6), two wing attacks (1d8), and one tail slap attack (2d6)." They designed the spells to give you those options but NOT allow you to totally ignore your stats if you want to use the forms in combat. I never really thought about it a great deal until this thread and the more I look at it the more I have to agree with other posters who have said the change was "elegant", it makes alot of sense and keeps people from abusing the poly/wild shape like it was. It gives options but is still dependent on the characters own stats as well so it doesn't allow for as much side stepping as it used to. There is no "I shape change into something my size but with better everything" now and I think it is appropriate, it reinforces all the side bars and comments we see in the book about the shape changing abilites.

However with that in mind I'd have to retract my suggestion about the +2 to stats at levels 16, 18 and 20 and think about how to implement it more because that just feeds into the elven druid shape changing into an elven druid with better stats and defeats the purpose of the changes made all over again.

@Sannos: I think +8 enhancement bonus to stats for leveling up 6 levels of druids is pretty steep don't you? I was even iffy on a +6 in my suggestion and after this post I think it needs to be limited in some way like I just mentioned above (aka doesn't work when shape changed into something your real size to prevent the elf changing to an elf scenario) and probably a lower bonus - more like +4 total or maybe just flat out +2 to hit and damage when using natural attacks instead of ability bonuses - like I said I need to think on it more lol. Also no other class gives anything remotely close to that powerful that and druids were already close to if not at the top of the pack. As for feats druids (well everyone actually)gained 3 feats with the switch to Pathfinder (from 7 @ 18th to 10 @ 19th) so they already have those two "free" feats you were talking about if they wanted to take multi attack and imp natural attack. Most druids did anyways if they wild shaped often so I don't think they need to be given as a class feature.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Taking that into consideration we go to the Huge creature you were talking about being crippled. It isn't. It should not be using the shape change spells to "get around" having poor physical stats for its size. If it wants to change into a huge elemental it should be doing it for the fly speed/whirlwind attack, push/earth glide, burn/fire resistance, or the swim/vortex ability as well as being immune to crits/sneak attacks and DR that come with the ability.

The fact is that the same Huge creature changing into a Large one suddenly has all his physical stats changed (see my previous examples); it's only his 'standard size' form (in this case, Huge) that forces him to keep his standard scores (and this is a bit strange...)

Plus, in the Alpha version, I'm fairly sure (I am not able to check it at the moment) that there was no such limitation (the last sentence of the paragraph was not there); so, had we a change of rules, or simply a misleading sentence ?
If the intention was to not allow a creature to gain bonuses to polymorphing into his own size, the text should include also Medium and Small creatures - but it doesn't...


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

QUOTE]Sure, you can summon a T-Rex, but the monster does not have all the abilities of a PC, including feats, class abilities, spell effects and magic items. It is just a T-Rex and as such is a quantifiable component. Giving PCs a spell that could equate to +20 Str, stacked on top of a mountain of other abilities, makes this option way too good. Spells that enhance your character now follow a relatively set pattern of advancement, making them easy to balance against one another. The old polymorph (and wild shape) was the fly in that mildly smooth ointment that really broke the system. There is a reason it was errata'd about a dozen times and banned from most org play settings.

Hope that helps... the polymorph spells will not be reverting to the way they were. They were just too disruptive.

My thoughts on the matter probably won't be popular, but I thought I'd add them anyway. Has anyone thought about using wildshape to be enhancing to what the druid already has going for them instead of turning them into a tank or turning them into the party's porter of gold. Most druid's are fairly wise and smart, seems to me that they'd have more sense than to haul things for their team mates or take the hits to the face. Honestly my druid's idea about the loot is "if you can carry it, you can keep it. If you can't carry it, do you really need it?"

For me, wildshape has always been my way for the druid to think outside of the box. Usually to grant me a movement type that I don't already have to get around certain obstacles. I also like to pop the smallest form I can to skip past the bad guys who are distracted by my bigger friends so that I can find the good stuff, then pop up behind the big bad and surprise him with a fun call lightning or flamestrike, heehee.

In short though, I like the new polymorph rules. a lot.


You know, I like the new polymorph, but I do feel that the druid needs to have some access to approximately a total of +8 to physical stats, to make up for physical stat boosters (probably a +4 to two stats belt) which are precluded from being used by the rules of the polymorph subschool. Of course, the rules may mean that the druid can wear a +4 to two stats belt for more than 24 hours, and still get the benefit of the enhancement bonuses provided by beast shape, plant shape, or elemental shape, but as written, it seems as though a wildshaped or otherwise polymorphed character cannot use a belt of physical might, which is almost essential to be a relevant combatant at higher levels. I feel that wildshape should be usable to make a druid into a combatant, but I think excluding the druid from using a belt of physical might makes this somewhat difficult with the polymorph rules as written. Perhaps this is question for the magic items forum, when it opens.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

TreeLynx wrote:
You know, I like the new polymorph, but I do feel that the druid needs to have some access to approximately a total of +8 to physical stats, to make up for physical stat boosters (probably a +4 to two stats belt) which are precluded from being used by the rules of the polymorph subschool. Of course, the rules may mean that the druid can wear a +4 to two stats belt for more than 24 hours, and still get the benefit of the enhancement bonuses provided by beast shape, plant shape, or elemental shape, but as written, it seems as though a wildshaped or otherwise polymorphed character cannot use a belt of physical might, which is almost essential to be a relevant combatant at higher levels. I feel that wildshape should be usable to make a druid into a combatant, but I think excluding the druid from using a belt of physical might makes this somewhat difficult with the polymorph rules as written. Perhaps this is question for the magic items forum, when it opens.

The stat boosting items continue to work while under the effects of a polymorph spell, but they don't (currently) stack with the bonuses granted by most polymorph spells.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

((Edit: Fixed "do" to "don't"))


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
TreeLynx wrote:
You know, I like the new polymorph, but I do feel that the druid needs to have some access to approximately a total of +8 to physical stats, to make up for physical stat boosters (probably a +4 to two stats belt) .....

The stat boosting items continue to work while under the effects of a polymorph spell, but they do (currently) stack with the bonuses granted by most polymorph spells.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

So what you're saying is, a half-orc druid with a 20 str, can wild shape into a T-rex, get +6 from being that size (26) and have a belt of +4 str and have a 30 str over all as a T-rex (or 24 in normal form with the belt) Right?


Pendagast wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

...

The stat boosting items continue to work while under the effects of a polymorph spell, but they do (currently) stack with the bonuses granted by most polymorph spells.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

So what you're saying is, a half-orc druid with a 20 str, can wild shape into a T-rex, get +6 from being that size (26) and have a belt of +4 str and have a 30 str over all as a T-rex (or 24 in normal form with the belt) Right?

I smell a mean typo! (do vs don't)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The stat bonuses for druidic shapeshifting should be unnamed ones, or at least not enhancement bonuses, IMO. It´s a compromise with the old system of incredible stat enhancements and the new system, where technically the druid shouldn´t be able to move in huge forms, due to his great weight. ^^

As it is now, druids have been relegated back to a support role, because they can´t compete on the front lines anymore. Not that this is terribly bad, because they are still freaking powerful, but if this is the general idea anyway, then maybe the shapeshifting should get a more utility-like role, then.


magnuskn wrote:

The stat bonuses for druidic shapeshifting should be unnamed ones, or at least not enhancement bonuses, IMO. It´s a compromise with the old system of incredible stat enhancements and the new system, where technically the druid shouldn´t be able to move in huge forms, due to his great weight. ^^

As it is now, druids have been relegated back to a support role, because they can´t compete on the front lines anymore. Not that this is terribly bad, because they are still freaking powerful, but if this is the general idea anyway, then maybe the shapeshifting should get a more utility-like role, then.

I disagree with the stacking, for balance reasons it makes sense. Unless a caster decides to make physical stats a priority (which typically comes a cost of caster stats), it keeps a caster class from outperforming a melee class. It doesn't mean they can't, it just means that it isn't a matter of casting 2 spells (poly and +stat) and being better than the melee character all the sudden(the way the spells are written it just opens up slots really, you know you are going to get str from the spell, get a belt of dex if you spend most of your time in a large size to counteract the penalty and vice versa). All the polymorph school spells are dependent on the casters original stats. That means if the caster has a great str score it will follow the caster regardless of what form they are in. If they go to a smaller form they still have a "stronger" smaller character as the size penalty from the table isn't as great as a full size loss would be in the rules. If they go into larger shape they still get stronger from the enchancement bonus, it isn't a full size bonus but that is good for balance again (and the table doesn't take as much away so they keep their natural strength in the larger form as well). If they stay the same size the stats stay the same (so if they were stronger they stay strong, if they were weak they stay weak) - you shouldn't get all the sudden better in a different shape, other than access to the other abilities granted by the spell. I had written out a longer post yesterday in counterpoint to The Wraith's complaint about the polymorph spells being crippling and about the point that magic items stay working if they are continuous (Jason covered that one above) but it gotten "eaten" when I tried to do some punctuation changes and I wasn't in the mood to retype it all at that point, maybe I'll try later lol.

As for your technicality of not being able to move, it doesn't exist in any rule set. A creature is capable of normal movement regardless of of its strength score, its size and weight have absolutely no bearing on that. It is just a matter of how much more it can carry on its body. A huge creature with a str score of 3 and a huge creature with a str score of 24 both move at the same speed unencumbered, one can just carry more. This hasn't changed from 3.5 to PFRPG.

I think the whole change to the spells rules and all the sidebars quite plainly point to the spells going back to the "utility" abilities they were originally intended as. I read all the spells and the polymorph school over again and I didn't see anywhere that made exceptions about medium or small creatures. The table states if they are smaller than small or larger than medium, apply these stat changes (str/dex/con)then add the spell stats. If you are staying the same size don't do any of that you just get the other abilities (movement, senses, natural attacks, etc). I don't see anything that counters that anywhere.

They are a full progression caster with a full progression animal companion. The only reason they were an exceptionally viable melee combatant on top of all that was because of the overpowered polymorph rules that have been changed. As for them being a more utility role, I think the spells are fine as they are. Going back to possible tweaks to make the higher levels (16-20) more attractive, maybe giving options when shapechanged like faster movement(+10' fly, burrow, swim, climb), better maneuverability(gets +4 to skill checks to climb, swim, fly), as well things like +2 enhancement to AC from thicker hide, +2 enhancement hit or damage are probably more in line with the idea of the druid, not just a plain stat bonus. These could all be fine tuned to stack what they are getting from the spells(as in many forms gear won't be available). Wild shape isn't all combat, it is supposed to be utility and possible additional abilities should push that point home.


Skylancer4 wrote:
I think the whole change to the spells rules and all the sidebars quite plainly point to the spells going back to the "utility" abilities they were originally intended as. I read all the spells and the polymorph school over again and I didn't see anywhere that made exceptions about medium or small creatures. The table states if they are smaller than small or larger than medium, apply these stat changes (str/dex/con)then add the spell stats. If you are staying the same size don't do any of that you just get the other abilities (movement, senses, natural attacks, etc). I don't see anything that counters that anywhere.

Yes, I believe Wrath and others were responding to how they "thought the ability was intended to work", when the RAW reading indicated that only "Adjustments" were not applied to same-Size shifting (for Large/Tiny/etc Casters). Adjustment being a term that isn't broadly used as an equivalent to Bonus/Penalty/Modifier in 3.5/PRPG, it likely doesn't apply to the Stat Bonuses listed under each spell (doubly so since they are listed in completely different places than the Adjustment table).

What that basically means is that, yes, Strong & Large Casters are extra strong when shifting into their same size, but they are also extra low Dexterity, assuming Large Creatures have a negative DEX adjustment already factored in. (And vice versa for high DEX/low STR Tiny Casters) Since that seems to amount to a double "Secondary Stat" penalty (secondary in that big brutes focus on STR, tiny things focus on DEX), it seems like there could be a slight revision here: Perhaps as simple as saying that when shifting into same-size forms, no Stat Penalties from Polymorph apply...?

...BUT there is still the fact that for non-same-Size scenarios, the SAME Stat Bonuses/Penalties apply when shifting into Size X form, no matter your starting size: I.e. Huge is only 1 Tier higher than a Large Caster, but 4 Tiers higher than a Tiny one, yet they would both apply the same Bonus/Penalty, even though the increase in size (associated with higher STR/CON & lower DEX) is much less for the Large Caster than the Tiny (in other words, assuming the Large Creature's Race already factored in a DEX penalty & STR bonus in their inherent Racial Adjustments, they shouldn't need to penalize their DEX score as much).

Like I mentioned before, it seems the most elegant solution is to expand Size Bonus to include a bonus/penalty to STR/DEX/CON (this aspect is currently "behind the scenes"), allowing Polymorph spells which shift Size to "over-write" this (since Size doesn't stack) - which would imply less reliance on Enhancement bonuses (though they could exist in parallel).


magnuskn wrote:

The stat bonuses for druidic shapeshifting should be unnamed ones, or at least not enhancement bonuses, IMO. It´s a compromise with the old system of incredible stat enhancements and the new system, where technically the druid shouldn´t be able to move in huge forms, due to his great weight. ^^

As it is now, druids have been relegated back to a support role, because they can´t compete on the front lines anymore. Not that this is terribly bad, because they are still freaking powerful, but if this is the general idea anyway, then maybe the shapeshifting should get a more utility-like role, then.

Druids are full casters.

I think they'll be able to get by.


Sueki Suezo wrote:


Druids are full casters.
I think they'll be able to get by.

Based on their spell per day - yes

Based on the quality of spells vs Clerics/Arcane Casters - not so much


theeaterofshades wrote:
Sueki Suezo wrote:


Druids are full casters.
I think they'll be able to get by.

Based on their spell per day - yes

Based on the quality of spells vs Clerics/Arcane Casters - not so much

Well to that point they also have a full HD animal companion that they are capable of buffing and healing to rely on. Basically a big predatory animal ready to rip faces off with a free actions notice that can be replaced or changed in 24 hours with out penalty. Add to that the ability to pop off a summon spell spontaneously and choose from a fairly significant list which ever critter would be most useful at the time (and some of them have quite a wide range of abilities as well). Then again, they could be a fighter... I hope you get the point, but in case you haven't, we are talking about a class that doesn't need anything more.

Quandary wrote:


Yes, I believe Wrath and others were responding to how they "thought the ability was intended to work", when the RAW reading indicated that only "Adjustments" were not applied to same-Size shifting (for Large/Tiny/etc Casters). Adjustment being a term that isn't broadly used as an equivalent to Bonus/Penalty/Modifier in 3.5/PRPG, it likely doesn't apply to the Stat Bonuses listed under each spell (doubly so since they are listed in completely different places than the Adjustment table).

I'm pretty sure the location doesn't matter, there have been quite a few rules that were in out of the way places that got passed over just to be like "doh, that makes a difference in what were were doing!" The fact that it actually says work the table and then the spell adjustments and the next sentence says don't do it if it is the same size... I'd say broadly used term or not, it is pretty clearly stated. If it only said the table and nothing about the spell adjustment in the prior sentence there would be a case lol.

Quandary wrote:


What that basically means is that, yes, Strong & Large Casters are extra strong when shifting into their same size, but they are also extra low Dexterity, assuming Large Creatures have a negative DEX adjustment already factored in. (And vice versa for high DEX/low STR Tiny Casters) Since that seems to amount to a double "Secondary Stat" penalty (secondary in that big brutes focus on STR, tiny things focus on DEX), it seems like there could be a slight revision here: Perhaps as simple as saying that when shifting into same-size forms, no Stat Penalties from Polymorph apply...?

If a creature is shaping into the same size there are no "extra" penalties involved. The table doesn't come into play so nothing there, and the stat adjustments from the spell don't come into play so nothing either. As the stats don't change where is the penalty you are talking about coming from? I'll admit to a little confusion on your point.

Quandary wrote:


...BUT there is still the fact that for non-same-Size scenarios, the SAME Stat Bonuses/Penalties apply when shifting into Size X form, no matter your starting size: I.e. Huge is only 1 Tier higher than a Large Caster, but 4 Tiers higher than a Tiny one, yet they would both apply the same Bonus/Penalty, even though the increase in size (associated with higher STR/CON & lower DEX) is much less for the Large Caster than the Tiny (in other words, assuming the Large Creature's Race already factored in a DEX penalty & STR bonus in their inherent Racial Adjustments, they shouldn't need to penalize their DEX score as much).

If you look at the tables, between the two the only difference is str and con (which the polymorph favors). Dex increments the exact same way in both. When I say "favors" I mean that the poly table does not penalize as much as the size table at the top end going down and at the low end going up it is equal (same gains as the size table so a smaller creature gains as much as they would normally - this equates to no added penalty for being smaller sized). Lets say you are a large caster, then cast beast shape 3 to gain a huge size form. You gain +2 dex from the polymorph table (to gain medium size which the spells are based off of) and then the spell gives a penalty of -4. This evens out to be what the size table would have you do (no "extra" penalizing going on). Now look at strength, you should lose 8 (-8 to go from large to medium by size table), but you only lose 4 by the poly table and you gain +6 from the spell. Your gain is a +2 (but in reality your net gain was +6 as you didn't lose the full 8 from scaling down to medium size) bonus. Now we look at con, again the poly table gives a penalty of -2 (you would lose 4 if you followed the size table) and the spell doesn't modify con so you really end up with a hidden +2 bonus. So where is the stacking on of these penalties you are talking about? I'm just trying to stick with the examples we've had so far so we are all on the same level so to speak and I'm not seeing a double penalty or crippling of a creature when using the poly table and spell (or not using them in the same size situation - because nothing is changing and you are getting the benefits of all the forms available abilities - there is no crippling, just bonus abilities in such a case).

Quandary wrote:


Like I mentioned before, it seems the most elegant solution is to expand Size Bonus to include a bonus/penalty to STR/DEX/CON (this aspect is currently "behind the scenes"), allowing Polymorph spells which shift Size to "over-write" this (since Size doesn't stack) - which would imply less reliance on Enhancement bonuses (though they could exist in parallel).

From what it looks like the rules already do this no? Size adjustments were always "behind the scenes" because they only really mattered when creating a creature. In 3.5 when you poly'd into a large creature you got its stat block which included the adjustments for size, you just didn't need to do any work to figure it out. Now that it is based off your characters actual stats the PFRPG design team created a table to adjust the stats of the character up or down(for all intents and purposes a "size" adjustment/bonus/penalty - use whichever term you like) to create a base off of which the magical spells can modify and give a more easily balanced benefit. As a magical spell it is completely understandable that it would provide an enhancement bonus, I mean "enhancement bonus" is pretty much universally understood to be the "magical bonus". +2 Chain mail(enhancement), +1 Longsword (enhancement), +4 Cloak of Charisma (enhancement), etc. Unless your complaint is that poly school spells provide an enhancement bonus so you can't stack items/spells with it? If that is the case I can only say this system is actually balanced because of its decided lack of ability to do that, it was part of the design to include such a limitation I'd imagine.


Skylancer4 wrote:
theeaterofshades wrote:
Sueki Suezo wrote:


Druids are full casters.
I think they'll be able to get by.

Based on their spell per day - yes

Based on the quality of spells vs Clerics/Arcane Casters - not so much

Well to that point they also have a full HD animal companion that they are capable of buffing and healing to rely on. Basically a big predatory animal ready to rip faces off with a free actions notice that can be replaced or changed in 24 hours with out penalty. Add to that the ability to pop off a summon spell spontaneously and choose from a fairly significant list which ever critter would be most useful at the time (and some of them have quite a wide range of abilities as well). Then again, they could be a fighter... I hope you get the point, but in case you haven't, we are talking about a class that doesn't need anything more.

I am not saying anything new, but a retweek of wildshape to adjust for upper levels where it is actually better for the druid to remain as a humanoid with a good weapon vs WS into something that often cannot deal damage to any thing of appropriate CRs.

The point about the Cleric is a bunch of people say the druid is over powered due to having Ani Comps, Full casting + spont casting, and WS. But when you look at channeling, better armor (metals; light, medium, heavy), non restricted weapon list, full casting (with better spell list), spont casting healing, & 2 domains & powers. The point I am making is the druids are not still overpowered compared to the cleric. You have to realize that folks like Dennis da Ogre have been calling for further Nerfing of the druid and I believe with some upper level WS tweaks it is right where it should be.


theeaterofshades wrote:
The point I am making is the druids are not still overpowered compared to the cleric. You have to realize that folks like Dennis da Ogre have been calling for further Nerfing of the druid and I believe with some upper level WS tweaks it is right where it should be.

That would be a very tall order to accomplish. The Cleric and the Wizard are the undisputed masters of the game right now, and trying to make a class more powerful then either of these two would be game-breaking at this point. The Druid may still be a Tier 1 character, but they are definitely at the bottom end of Tier 1.

I think what needs to be done is introduce some class abilities that allow the Druid to bypass certain forms of Damage Reduction while Wild Shaped and perhaps give them some extra Enhancement Bonuses to their shapes at higher levels.


Beta wrote:
If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments.

I would say this passage definitely DOESN'T clearly indicate the Spell Bonuses aren't to be applied, because for one, THE PASSAGE ITSELF is using a DIFFERENT TERM (Adjustment vs. Bonus) to refer to the Size Adjustment Table and to the Spell Bonuses you apply later. Certainly, it could just be written poorly, but personally, I would not negate a Spell Effect unless there is a clear case for doing so: The wording does not un-ambiguously suggest that to me.

My first point (re: same-size shifting) is contingent on this reading of the text. You thus apply the Spell Modifiers (+Primary, -Secondary) on top of normal Stats, which are presumed to already account for Size Adjustments to Stats, although this is behind the scenes (see my last point, below). This results in doubling up of effective Size Bonus & Penalties.

My second point (re: different-size shifting)... Um, we all have off days, right? ;-)

RE: Size Modifiers, I really feel that defining Size Bonus to include Stat Modifiers globally is the more consistent solution. Enlarge Person, for example, grants a STR bonus and DEX penalty AS SIZE BONUSES. Yet, Small or Large creatures don't have a "Size Bonus" PER SE (though they have the same benefit as Enlarge/Reduce Person, just pre-calculated into their Stats). Yet Polymorph Effects, which can reproduce Enlarge/Reduce Person, apply all their Stat Modifiers as ENHANCEMENT BONUSES, not Size Bonus. I hope I've making myself clear on this. It really seems more consistent, and would negate the need for the wonky "Adjustment" sub-system for Polymorph, if all non-Medium Creatures, and all Spells/Effects which changed Size, included the appropriate Stat Modifiers as SIZE BONUS, just like Enlarge Person. (There are still weaker or stronger species of certain size of course, that would be an Inherent modifier "on top" of their Size Modifier.)


Quandary wrote:
I would say this passage definitely DOESN'T clearly indicate the Spell Bonuses aren't to be applied, because for one, THE PASSAGE ITSELF is using a DIFFERENT TERM (Adjustment vs. Bonus) to refer to the Size Adjustment Table and to the Spell Bonuses you apply later.

The passage is pretty clear to me, but for the sake of rules lawyers everywhere, I suppose we could change the passage to read:

If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying any ability score adjustments mandated by the spell. If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments.

Quandary wrote:
Certainly, it could just be written poorly, but personally, I would not negate a Spell Effect unless there is a clear case for doing so: The wording does not un-ambiguously suggest that to me.

This doesn't seem very ambiguous to me:

If a Polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, combat modifier bonus, and stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Quandary wrote:
It really seems more consistent, and would negate the need for the wonky "Adjustment" sub-system for Polymorph, if all non-Medium Creatures, and all Spells/Effects which changed Size, included the appropriate Stat Modifiers as SIZE BONUS, just like Enlarge Person. (There are still weaker or stronger species of certain size of course, that would be an Inherent modifier "on top" of their Size Modifier.)

It's also completely and totally unbalanced. You can get away with Enlarge Person being a Size bonus because the Size bonus granted is very small and you can stack it with Enhancement Bonuses without having to worry about ability score modifiers scaling out of control. If we changed all of the various Form and Shape spells to Size bonuses - indeed, even if we changed a portion of the modifiers that they grant as Size bonuses - then we'd be looking at some very severe ability score modifiers stacking against each other at end-game, and that would be very bad for game balance indeed.


Your re-wording is still ambiguous to me.
If that's the preferred functionality, I'd prefer it explictly stated (at the end):
"and Ability Score Modifiers from Polymorph Spells are not applied."
Negating half the function of a spell is something that should be spelled out, not 'inferred'.

That Size and Enhancement bonuses stack certainly is true, but it seems odd that Polymorph spells used solely to replicate Enlarge Person have a completely perpendicular approach mechanically. Likewise, if the goal is balance at high levels (re: Stacking as you mentioned), I'm not sure the current regime ensures that as much as you can think, since I can't think of a particular reason why a hypothetical "Greater Enlarge Person", etc etc, couldn't Enlarge someone up to Colossal Size (w/ Size Bonus to STR, etc) and stack on top of STR enhancements, given an appropriate Spell Level.

System design-wise, it just seems more elegant to have Size Bonuses function consistently,
which would also negate the need for the "Adjustment" sub-system in Polymorph.
Anyhow, I think this topic has been brought to the attention of the Powers-that-Be,
so I don't think we need to worry about it much more....


Quandary wrote:
Beta wrote:
If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments.

I would say this passage definitely DOESN'T clearly indicate the Spell Bonuses aren't to be applied, because for one, THE PASSAGE ITSELF is using a DIFFERENT TERM (Adjustment vs. Bonus) to refer to the Size Adjustment Table and to the Spell Bonuses you apply later. Certainly, it could just be written poorly, but personally, I would not negate a Spell Effect unless there is a clear case for doing so: The wording does not un-ambiguously suggest that to me.

I think the fact that the table has both penalties and bonuses is the reason they are cumulatively termed "adjustments". Please note that not all spells give just bonuses and if they said do not add the bonuses applied you could in theory get stuck with penalties from the spell. The use of the word "adjustments" saves word count in an already lengthy book. Again not to say some clearing up wouldn't be nice but I think you are being "nit-picky" so to speak about it. A bonus is an adjustment as is a penalty, any particular spell gives an adjustment of some sort.

Quandary wrote:


My first point (re: same-size shifting) is contingent on this reading of the text. You thus apply the Spell Modifiers (+Primary, -Secondary) on top of normal Stats, which are presumed to already account for Size Adjustments to Stats, although this is behind the scenes (see my last point, below). This results in doubling up of effective Size Bonus & Penalties.

Obviously I disagree with your interpretation of the text and have given the reasons. Not to mention your interpretation actually is more complicated (for the problems and reasons you stating) and they have been consistently simplifying things. What is more simple than not making any changes? In the end, I am fairly certain my interpretation of the rules is the one that the designers envisioned when they wrote them.

Quandary wrote:


My second point (re: different-size shifting)... Um, we all have off days, right? ;-)

Oh yes.

Quandary wrote:


RE: Size Modifiers, I really feel that defining Size Bonus to include Stat Modifiers globally is the more consistent solution. Enlarge Person, for example, grants a STR bonus and DEX penalty AS SIZE BONUSES. Yet, Small or Large creatures don't have a "Size Bonus" PER SE (though they have the same benefit as Enlarge/Reduce Person, just pre-calculated into their Stats). Yet Polymorph Effects, which can reproduce Enlarge/Reduce Person, apply all their Stat Modifiers as ENHANCEMENT BONUSES, not Size Bonus. I hope I've making myself clear on this. It really seems more consistent, and would negate the need for the wonky "Adjustment" sub-system for Polymorph, if all non-Medium Creatures, and all Spells/Effects which changed Size, included the appropriate Stat Modifiers...

I am fairly certain they made particular care when they rewrote spells to provide size and enhancement bonuses with an eye being kept on how they stack. They are also not giving full bonuses based on size increase, by using they table for the polymorph school they can control which spells stack and which spells don't with the use of an enhancement type bonus (again both points are good for game balance). If they were to keep this design decision (partial size bonus) and use your take on it there would have to be yet another different table or each spell that adjusts size would have to be rewritten yet again. Both of those options are less attractive as they either complicate things (which table do you use, the real size table or the new one?) or require more space to do what the current rules already accomplish.


After re-reading (and re-re-reading) the relevant sections of the Beta after reading this thread, I've come to the following conclusions.

The text above the table on the bottom of the left column on page 160 (the adjustments for creatures larger than medium and smaller than small) should be taken as the adjustments in the table should only be made if the target creature is changed into a size other than their original size by the spell, but ability score modifications listed in the spell are still applied. My reasoning is that according to the description of Beast Shape I on page 203 of the Beta, a Small creature taking the form of a small animal gains +2 Dex and a Medium creature taking the form of a medium animal gains +2 Str. No size change is taking place so these are not actually size bonuses. Yes, this means a Large creature taking the form of a large animal gains +4 Str and Huge creature taking the form of a huge animal gains +6 Str. I'm not calling it fair, but that is the way it is written. And to be honest I don't have a problem with that. This is because that Large Creature is taking a -2 penalty to Dex and that Huge Creature is taking a -4 penalty to Dex. They have an overall gain, but it's not all gain.

Druids do not need additional bonuses to their ability scores when wild shaped. This would only sever to undo the toning down of the entire polymorph subschool. A small bonus to Natural Armor might be a consideration, but I'm not convinced it is necessary.

Between wild shape and their choice of animal companion or a domain, Druids gain as much at high levels as any other full casting class.

Could they use something more between 16-19th level? Possibly, but the only addition that I see them really wanting for is the ability to overcome Damage Reduction while wild shaped.


Quandary wrote:

Your re-wording is still ambiguous to me.

If that's the preferred functionality, I'd prefer it explictly stated (at the end): "and Ability Score Modifiers from Polymorph Spells are not applied." Negating half the function of a spell is something that should be spelled out, not 'inferred'.

The problem is that we're not talking about the ability score modifiers applied by the Polymorph Spell itself - we're talking about ability score modifiers resulting from Size changes that are caused by the spell. If we use your wording, then it reads in such a way that it can be interpreted that they don't even get the Enchancement Bonuses provided by the shape spells.


BTW Skylancer,
just to let you know, it wasn't a case of my interpretation being 'nitpicky' or rules-lawyer-y,
that was honestly my direct take on the passage the first time I read it, and the fact it could POSSIBLY be interpreted a different way did not occur to me until you and others here brought it up.

About Size Bonus, it really comes down to Jason's approach to system design.
The current system obviously favors using both Polymorph + Size Bonus Spells to stack Enhancement & Size Bonus. If Wildshape/Polymorph incorporated an element of Size Bonus, such a combo would be less 'efficient', since the lesser Size Bonus would be overwritten. I obviously think a consistent 'global' application of Size Bonus between both 'normal' Size and Size Changing spells/powers is the more elegant system-design option (negating need for Polymorph Adjustment chart... Size Spells & Non-Med. Races would not need to specify Stat Mods, which would be part of the more comprehensive Size Modifier), but realistically, D&D isn't known for being the most 'rational' or 'efficient' of RPG systems, so we'll see how Pathfinder evolves... :-)

In any case, interesting rules 'problems' revealed here, for sure.

SUEKI: ....??? I'm reading it pretty much in line with Freesword's interpretation above,
i.e. the Spell derived Stat Modifiers ARE applied on same-size shifts.


Freesword wrote:


Could they use something more between 16-19th level? Possibly, but the only addition that I see them really wanting for is the ability to overcome Damage Reduction while wild shaped.

Honestly that isn't even an issue, the greater magic fang spell gives an enhancement bonus to natural attacks and lasts hours/level. Enhancement bonuses of various strengths overcome differing versions of damage reductions (page 394) and appropriate choice of form gives access to S/P/B type attacks - assuming forms incapable of wielding weapons. Actually "Bite" is probably the second most common(if not the most common) natural attack and does all 3 types of damage so those types of DR are practically non-issues. Core rules also have the trusty amulet of mighty fists (the only non-activated/continuous items that don't work while wild shaped are the ones that grant armor bonuses, and that is where "wild" armor would come in as well as the bark skin spell). So DR isn't a concern for the wild shaping druid.

@Quandary
It wasn't meant in a negative way. More along the lines of "there is an ambiguous rule that when read this way doesn't make sense" and when a reasoning or interpretation that might clarify it is given, if someone pushes the one that doesn't make sense it just seems odd. It is less about being the "right" one and more about trying to make sense of the rules in a way that works. All in all I think we all agree clarification is needed, but on the good side these are the things that Paizo probably wants to happen in the playtest lol.

On a side note, I remember someone saying they had brought up the spells/table adjustment confusion before and the Paizo folk were going to look into it. What is the "official" ruling on this anyways? Yeah, I'm being lazy and hoping someone has it bookmarked :p


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

dont you think it was broken because the ability to turn into something like an elephant occured at 8th level (way too early)and something like that at 20th level would barely be out of whack in comparison to mages casting wish?

Of course turning into a Trex would still over shadow fighters.
But then agin if you can summon the darn thing, or charm it to fight for you, how is turning into one any more unbalanced, it still exists.
Basically as long as you dont have MORE str, con, dex that the natural creature, is itnot the same as if you had it as an animal companion, summon or charmed monster?

Sure, you can summon a T-Rex, but the monster does not have all the abilities of a PC, including feats, class abilities, spell effects and magic items. It is just a T-Rex and as such is a quantifiable component. Giving PCs a spell that could equate to +20 Str, stacked on top of a mountain of other abilities, makes this option way too good. Spells that enhance your character now follow a relatively set pattern of advancement, making them easy to balance against one another. The old polymorph (and wild shape) was the fly in that mildly smooth ointment that really broke the system. There is a reason it was errata'd about a dozen times and banned from most org play settings.

Hope that helps... the polymorph spells will not be reverting to the way they were. They were just too disruptive.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thank Jason!

Fight the good fight against the D in CoDzilla! I have seen first hand the abuse of the old druid.


The only thing that I'm really worried about regarding Druids is the overall efficacy of blasting spells. Escalating HD and HP totals have somewhat outpaced the damage that Evocation spells do. Perhaps Evocation spells should do +1 damage per die of damage inflicted? So a 16th level Wizard casting a Cone Of Cold spell would inflict 15D6+15 points worth of damage? This isn't something my gaming group has really talked about or worked out just yet - just a thought.


actually, if we keep playing this more HP more spell damage game, you will end up having a broken game in the end where falling off a cliff will be of little consequence because everyone has 200 hp to resist the mega fireballs.

Its too bad we cant just go back to HP/HD of old, where a wizard getting off a 6d6 fireball was a scary thing and cure moderate wounds was a spell worth taking.

Monsters definately have/do too many Hps.

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