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Hi. If there were to be three PF books a year, I'd spend money on one per year of the following categories:
For DM's, I'd like to see a book of monsters every year or two. Making them thematic would be a good angle. Classic monsters, dinosaurs, dragons, outsiders, horror, contructs (include notes on making all of them!) etc...
For players, a book of alternate base classes and class options would be great too (spontaneous divine casters, new bloodlines, prc's, feats) would be nice.
Finally, a book of DMing tools and tricks would be great! A book each on traps, treasure, dungeonbuilding, magic items, and worldbuilding (including economics and rules for building low-magic campaigns) would round out my idea release roster.
PS Re Psionics: I think that it's just a flavour thing. The magic rules fit psionics just fine IMO. No need for a whole new layer of complication. Now, adding a psionic bloodline for sorcerers and a psionic school for wizards may be a way to go...
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
No, Unless you're going to write and release Epic level adventures, what's the point? I've been moaning on about how the Adventure Paths are finishing too early, only to be told that there isn't enough demand for higher level stuff! And now you're thinking about Epic? Start by finishing off your adventure paths at level 20. My vote NO.
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Psionics just isn't popular enough to bother with. Look at WotC (We only trade cr*p) sales.
So ummm... Have there been any trends yet?
I mean I've read over this thread and all I can do is scratch my bald scaley head with my clawy fingers and yelp like a dog. (Maybe that has something to do with me being a Kobold? Ah well.) But I gotta say, even as a potential writer of 3rd party material, I gotta say, I'm confused.
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In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Discuss.
There are a lot of rule expansions coming to my mind starting with feat centred books, over "Guide to better playing your [enter pc class]", to region centred ecologies/ monster books.
But those books would be just every DM's and experienced player's dream.
What's bothering me more is: What should the optimal rule book for newbies of PF RPG be like?
Thinking of what starting players need most: advice and hands on tips. Thinking of what they'd need the least: books as awe inspiringly thick as the PF RPG core book.
I am not speaking up against the PF RPG book - it will be great and I am looking forward very much to using it! But I am a long time DM and I know from past experience that newbies of the game often feel overwhelmed by the possibilities of the game.
So why not offer some kind of "rules book light" for those new to PF RPG? It shouldn't be anything but an appetizer and a guide for enjoying the first two or three adventures of PF RPG.
What should it be like? Ideas coming to my mind are:
- presenting just a fraction of the available classes, e.g. just fighter, cleric, sorceror, and rogue.
- very reduced magic and feats section.
- focus on describing class abilities, combat, and skill usage.
An even more radical approach: Just a few pre generated characters (-> iconics!) and an explanation of how to play their "abilities" would be an easy way to introduce newbies to the concept of the rules.
The icing on the cake would be a section of the end of the book, explaining which other possibilities "slumber" in your pc and wait to be discovered using the core rule book.
From there several possibilities exist to move on: the Gazetteer as a *short* introduction to Golarion, Companions for the campaign of your choice, and of course the full rules book.
Might be that my proposal is slightly off topic in this thread, but if PF RPG is to strive, it needs new players! And those new players can't be just converted 4e players... ;-) In my D&D experience so far, it's always the core rules which pose the highest obstacle for new players.
Looking forward to your comments and staff's reaction,
Günther
I'd love to see these things:
A re-work of the Epic rules. But not by itself. At least a module or a even a few for Epic Levels to actually put it to use and give us a bit of guidance in how to run our own Epic games. You have great APs dealing with 1-15. A few APs dealing with 10 or 15-25 would be kind of cool.
Re-work of Psionic rules. I love psionics but I do know that they are some exploitable holes in the system for it. So that would be cool to see and use.
One thing I would like is something like the Arms and Equipment guide. New items, tools, and equipment that only the genius minds at Paizo can give!
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Actually, all that I'd like to see is Paizo to repeat what WotC did right (but with a Pathfinder twist)and fix where WotC went wrong (again with a pathfinder twist). A lot of stuff that was put out was good but many things weren't supported and therefore never had its real potential reached! Bottom line: If stuff that Paizo puts out and supports is as half as good as Pathfinder's Beta Release, then Paizo has a customer for life with me!
I think there is something to this support idea. One place paizo could really shine above and beyond would be to have a messageboard dedicated to answering game rules questions. The old WotC customer support gave vague or sometimes conflicting answers to rules questions sent to their customer support. You guys can do better.
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I'd like to see 2-3 books a year.
A book for DMs - monster manuals (perhaps themed, like draconomicon/lords of madness/etc, to flesh out the critters, rather than generic monstrous splatbooks), something like the 'Elder Evils' book, only with a great deal more advice on creating them and laying an 'elder evil' campaign rather than the idiotic Delve chain of 'samples' we were spammed with, books akin to Vile Darkness that treat the 'pure' forces and how to handle them in a game, environment books that are given the Pathfinder treatment. That sort of thing.
A book for players - A 'complete' line that helps flesh classes out further, but not necessarily adding splatbook powering-up. Things like the race and class books, offering alternatives in each class - I /think/ it was a Dragon article on different appearances for paladins that I'm thinking of, where in addition to the European plate-mail crusader, you have the desert paladin in light fabrics astride a swift horse, or a jerkin-wearing paladin of the sea armed with a cutlass in battle with vile corsairs.
A 'generic' book - Treating things like psionics, epic play rules (in such need of revision it isn't even close to being funny), books on equipment-and-culture (perhaps 'thematic' in the sense of dungeon delver, desert, oceanic, and so on, with more fleshing out of things like materials, trade goods, and stuff to help bring a world to life)
As long as it didn't add too many titles per year or delve into anything too absurd (seriously, did we need a book that brought us, say, the one positive-energy Elder Evil that got called Jenova by everyone I know? As opposed to a much more useful book that detailed advice on building a campaign focused around some epic elder evil?)
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If my purchasing pattern is anything like my 3.5 product acquisitions, then you can expect me to shop thusly:
-One monster manual/beastiary. Yes, I see the other four on the store shelf. They do not impress me.
-Several races guidebooks and class guidebooks. I especially like alternate class features, then prestige classes. I know prestige classes tend to lead to rules bloat, but they also offer a lot of content that I and my players are looking for in order to give our PCs a more precise feel.
-Adventures. I always felt I got the full worth from my subscription of Dungeon. I'll look especially kindly on mid-to-high level adventures.
-psionics book, one. However, it looks as though you (Paizo staff) are looking into rebuilding the mechanics of psionics. I am very interested in that possibility, and if it works well I would very likely buy psionic supplements as well.
-Epic rules. I'll go into depth about what epic means to me in the appropriate thread.
-Feats and spells. Options are great. If these are included in class and racial supplements, that works for me.
-setting guidebooks. In the style of Volo's... or written as more of an atlas with very few colorful adjectives.
Bear in mind this one would be some time in the making...the stories would have to circulate a bit before it would ever be feasible.
Something along the lines of the old Hall of Heroes or Villain's Lorebook.
We'd need to have a base of well known Golarion baddies and goodies for that first though. Obviously it couldn't include characters that Paizo is using for an adventure path either, but it would certainly be a book of interesting ideas for GMs.
Actually having some statblocks is a good time saver as well. Finding the time to stat up every important NPC is always a major headache for me, so something like this would be greatly appreciated!
Besides! We already are starting to get some of the characters out there!
To name a few...
Eando Kline
Venture-Captain Shevala
Mithral Scarab
etc.
One of the things I always like about such books is that they also gave us a character history into these people and let us get to know and understand their motivations and beliefs.
Well since you asked.... :)
I'd be more than happy to plop down my hard earned cash for supplements dealing with the various races and settings. As for as the races thing, I would specifically suggestions for variations on the races (tinker type gnomes vs the more traditional gnomes, for instance). I'd also like to see a treatment of undead as a race (like the Forsaken in WoW).
Prestige classes... my opinion on these are that they should be mostly just for flavor and shouldn't go past fifth level. I like what the FR base setting book did with these. I don't think there's a lot of need to beat the classes to death, but I do think that the cavalier and the swashbuckler just never got enough love in 3.5 (or 4 for that matter).
I would also spend my hard earned money on bestiaries, but that comes way after the aforementioned things.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
1. I would subscribe - as long as, like the other subscriptions, the .pdf is free with subscription.
2. Rules bloat is a big concern. If there must be more "rules" releases for the Pathfinder RPG, I'd VERY MUCH rather Paizo concentrated on monsters or sourcebooks that are more setting-based in nature (such as books on the inner planes, outer planes, fiends, and the like). We already have so much with regard to rules with 3.5 that nothing else is needed (unless, of course, it's something that helps you tell better stories in the Adventure Paths). No new races or classes, unless they fill a Gollarion niche that the 3.5 books couldn't fill.
3. I don't know if I'm tired of prestige classes so much as I'd rather they be phased out. Pathfinder started down this road with enhancing the base classes, so if higher-level feats can be created that allow greater class flexibilities at higher levels (11+), I'd prefer that be the route that's taken, rather than develop new prestige classes. Also, regarding feats, making feats that evolve over levels might be the way to go.
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?
I am not, in principle, opposed to a drastic redesign of the Psionic system, but it all depends on how the system was redesign. In order for me to find Psionics worthwhile, it must be distinctive. I am mostly accepting of the 3E Psionic system, but I don't feel that it was sufficiently different from magic - I think it needs to be able to do different things that magic cannot and in turn be unable to do some things that magic can do. I also like the fact that it has a different resource managament system - diversity in this regard is a good thing.
Given the above, I am not at all opposed to a total system redesign, so long as it adheres to the following two principles:
1) Any redesign needs to make Psionic more distinctive from magic than it is now or at the very least must preserve the current level of distinctiveness.
2) Any redesign must not decrease the diversity of resource management by moving Psionics into the Vancian casting model. I love the Vancian casting model... for magic! For Psionics, however, this would be a big no-no/red line for me. Preserve a point based system, redesign Psionics as a system that is similar to skills/always on feats or do something else entirely, but don't move it to a Vancian model.
Unfortunately, your comments about the Psionics system dovetailing "easier and more gracefully into the core rules", hints that your redesing might have exactly the things I don't want to see... Whereas I think that a differentiated system can also be balanced and dovetail with core-rules, I have a bad feeling that that is not what you had in mind and you would like to make Psionics into a Vancian system instead.
I'd also like to see a treatment of undead as a race (like the Forsaken in WoW).
FOR THE HORDE!!!
I'd also like to see a treatment of undead as a race (like the Forsaken in WoW).FOR THE HORDE!!!
<Chuckle> I just think there's a lot of possibility there. IMO they're a whole lot more interesting than tieflings (fluff wise).
As per psionics I have never been a fan of them. Not in 1E, not ever. They just seem pointless. They come off like a lame magic system with a monk twist. "It's the internal power of the mind causing this effect" You mean the spell-like effect that seems to have the same source as all the various Ki powers of the Monk/Ninja etc? Wow. Awesome. Not a fan.
As for PrCs they have been overdone and I wouldn't weep at all if they were left by the wayside. Same for new core classes for the most part. Some are nice (Knight, Beguiler, Archivist and Swashbuckler spring to mind) but with 3.X we got waaaaayyyy too many. The concept of class variants with Feats etc is pretty neat. Like making the Assassin a class variant of the Rogue or the Beguiler as a variant Sorcerer or the Archivist as a variant Bard. Kind of like how they did the variants in the 3E Unearthed Arcana which was IMO an outstanding product. Speaking of which using the Weapon Group Proficiencies that book had would be acceptable to me.
Monster books get a huge thumbs up from me though. Not like the last couple of MMs from WotC were like though. Focus on diversity and quality rather than "look at this awesome collection of sick undead".
In answer to your over all question of what I would like to see, I have one word for you--SUPPORT.
Please support what you publish at least a little. The biggest victim to this in 3.X was the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It was a cool book that had some cool classes in it and then ... nothing. Nothing was mentioned in any of the modules or other source books. It was like they printed it and lost the main frame file for it. So I hope and pray that if you make any book that you support it some how through the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, Chronicles or Modules.
The problem Paizo are going to face with this issue is that the APs have to be playable with just the core rules or they'll get flak from the other direction.
It's a fine line supporting optional supplements on one hand, yet not making the "core rules" consist of half a dozen essential books that you need to have in order to play the published adventures.
It seems to me that one solution would be to produce a bunch of psionic-friendly modules (to use your psionic example). Or similarly themed (Epic modules, Oriental modules and so on). I would think the APs will by virtue of market necessity need to be playable with whatever turns out to be "core Pathfinder" or people with only the basic books will feel like they're missing out.
Piazo ate my original post...
I certainly won't turn down a manual of monsters, I'm always looking for new beasties to throw my players against.
I'm not so fond of books with a scattering of feats, spells, magic items and the likes in them; compendiums of stuff are fine, but lugging around or trying to remember what book feat "Peanut Butter Assault" is from is no fun.
Personally, I'd be more interested in rule subset books - things along the line of Psionics Handbook, Magic of Incarnum, Weapons of Legacy, Ghostwalk and the like. I'm talking about books that introduce a whole new system to the game, something creative and new, yet fun. Of course, the only problem with these books for a lot of people is that they tend to be one-shots that get no additional material for them down the road. For me, that's fine. What I want is a fleshed-out kernel of an idea I can expand on my own; it's the coming up with the off-the-wall stuff that's difficult, not expanding on it.
Also consider this a plea for a remake of Weapons of Legacy. The book had a great idea - unique items that grow in power over a character's career. However, the implementation of the idea was horrible. I'd love to see the idea revisited sometime, but not the exact mechanics - especially the stat/save minuses.
[EDIT]
Also, put me in for killing PrC's. I think that making alternate class features and feats with stiff requirements should replace PrC's. For example, if you want to make an assassin, create a rogue alternate class ability called Death Strike, that replaces, say Evasion, and perhaps a feature that would cost 2 skill points (per level) to grant the rogue the ability to cast a small group of "assassin" spells. The base Pathfinder rules have already done some of this, I think it should just be taken the next step and completely axe the PrC's.
I'd also like to propose something completely out of the ordinary.
A background adventure book.
This little book would be somewhat like a "choose your own adventure" title that lets you build your player's background and initial stats to boot.
There can be multiple books, either themed to an AP, region, class or race. As you follow the story in the book, it acts both as a player's introduction to Golarion and/or the AP. There may be a section in the beginning that has some straight-up information - like a "Player's Guide to" manual, with the second section having a multiple-choice portion that helps you define your character's background and ends with a section containing some game stats/equipment/feats/spells/whatnot that can be used in the game. Perhaps the end of each background section might suggest game stats for you to represent your choices in the story section ("Based on your story selections, we suggest you start with a 16 Str and take Weapon Focus (Longsword) feat. You may also want to consider placing skill points in the Intimidate skll").
My 2 cents:
-A TRUE DEBUGGED DELUXE EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK!
-Psionic rules
-You can't convert to Pathfinder rpg the complete classes and prcs? all right, simply write down similar ones (at least for the most popular), that can substitute them without bugs and loopholes.
-More monsters? not interested so much...
Here's what I would like to see:
1. Monster books with general variety instead of a single theme for the whole book. That being said, however, I think it would be cool if each one could have a special emphasis/section. "Hey, look! Paizo's new Bestiary just came out, and this one spotlights constructs!" The fey/fae deserve some attention. Just look at how many Ennies Changeling: The Lost won for White Wolf this year--including Product of the Year! Oh, and I would love for the monster books to include a healthy section of new templates. Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary is a favorite of mine!
2. I would like to see an Unearthed Arcana type book, but here's what I'm thinking: Have it include variant rules and house rules from both Paizo staff and Paizo fans. I think that would be a great community-building contest/project!
3. I like psionics, and I actually really liked Magic of Incarnum. I would LOVE to see Paizo come up with its own alternative magic system. I'd almost rather they leave the XPH alone, though (or rebuild it from the ground up), and come up with something entirely new. I'm not sure what, but I'm confident the creative minds at Paizo could come up with something cool. What I like about both books is simply that it gives me something fresh, new, and different for my casters to use.
4. I would love to see a Steampunk book! The list is long, but things like firearms, clockwork golems, airships, Victorian fashion, etc. done by Paizo would be absolutely delicious! :)
I like new classes and races if they're unique and well thought out. I think the four Eberron races are a great example. I just don't want to see the glut of feats and prestige classes that we've seen from WotC. Sure, your wizard could technically collect all the available spells in an Encyclopedia Brittanica size spellbook, but your character could only ever use about 1% or less of all available feats and prestige classes. That's lame!
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Here's what I would like to see:
4. I would love to see a Steampunk book! The list is long, but things like firearms, clockwork golems, airships, Victorian fashion, etc. done by Paizo would be absolutely delicious! :)
I'm working on a steampunk setting I hope to have functional under the Pathfinder-version OGL, if you're interested in hearing about it.
Books I would like to see developed would be-
A Combat Options book: Which would give different maneuvers/skills/talents/stunts whatever you want to call them to any class, as well as fighting styles for the core classes.
A Psionics book: I personally like the power point system, I just feel there needs to be a clear distinction between psionics and magic otherwise they are just another list of spells.
I think these books should (for the most part) provide new options to customize your character rather than providing an endless list of basic and prestige classes.
I deeply appreciate Paizo's courage to stick with the OGL rules rather than following the newest trend. I think that other than a little tweaking (which is being done by Pathfinder) the rule set was a good one. Thanks guys
I've read the first page, but I'm not really going to be able to slog through everything that's been posted here and get some of my ideas down here.
What would I like to see provided for the Pathfinder RPG? I wouldn't mind something of a return / new approach to the Complete series. I like new classes (because many archetypes just don't work well with the core classes) such as the warlock, swashbuckler (in theory), scout, or favored soul. I like prestige classes, too, because options are good. I'm not a fan of worthless, weak prestige classes, or prestige classes that are too setting-focused. The more generic PrCs are more attractive to me, but I'm all for them, and wouldn't complain one bit if Pathfinder started calling them "Advanced Classes" instead, since that's really the niche they're filling.
I'm also interested in alternate rules systems - I liked Tome of Battle, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic to a lesser extent. I enjoy Unearthed Arcana. Like I said, I like options, and the more options, the better the game, IMHO.
That said, I will repeat something I've said before - Do NOT deviate too far from the XPH. I expect that it will be getting a Pathfinder treatment, if for no other reason than it's part of the SRD and could use a face lift to fit better with Pathfinder's rules, but the XPH is a thing of beauty and works very well. It's a rulebook I love very much, primarily because of the elegant and intuitive mechanics. It's only broken if the DM ignores some of the basic assumptions it and 3.5 were built with, and I wouldn't be opposed to some instructions on how to adjust if the DM decides to ignore those assumptions, but pitching the whole rules system just because 1 encounter per day campaigns encourage nova tactics is a terrible idea. This is the second time I've gotten the impression that Paizo doesn't really appreciate the Psionic rules at all, and if you're going to completely discard them, I'll ignore the book and look to Dreamscarred Press for a better option. Or, if you're not going to do the rules justice because you don't like them, maybe you should actually get DSP to freelance the book for Pathfinder - they're knowledgeable and very good, and they have a definite love of the rules and flavor of Psionics. I don't want Psionics to be arcane magic with the serial numbers filed off. I'd much rather arcane and divine magic run like psionics, honestly. Forcing a traditional variant magic system into the Vancian mold is a terrible idea, and also goes against the general Paizo trend of respecting the heritage of the game.
I don't mind monster books, so long as they run the gamut of CR. I tend to run lower level games, and so monster books that focus too heavily on high CR opponents (like the MMIII) or just slapping class levels on monsters (like the MMIV) are absolutely abhorrent to me and I'd avoid buying them at anything close to full price.
One thing I would love to see, and that I was hoping WotC would release before the 4.0 announcement killed my dreams, is a continuation of the "Heroes of..." line, especially a Heroes of Intrigue book. I like how Heroes of Horror and Heroes of Battle provided ideas for games in those genres, and intrigue campaigns excite and confuse me profoundly. I'd love for Pathfinder to provide a book that would help with this area.
Would I subscribe to the rule books? I'd like to say "yes" but I likely wouldn't. Working in the book store industry, I tend to acquire books locally at my FLGS or directly through my own store - it's more cost effective, it helps my sales numbers, and it keeps my money a bit more local. Eventually, Paizo reaps some benefit from it, but it also means I can get the books at my pace, rather than the regular deductions from my account. Though having PDFs of the rules would be nice, I'll admit...
Am I as tired of Prestige Classes as Eric Mona? Probably not. I like them. They're crunchy, give me ideas for characters, and provide me with additional options. What I am sick of is mechanically poor/weak PrCs that aren't worth the paper their printed on, even if the concept behind them is strong (such as the Veiled Dancer from Complete Scoundrel. That class just isn't worth it at all). I'm also a fan of alternate class features and new base classes, and fully support them as well. The 11 core classes are all well and good, but they just don't model all the character concepts and archetypes I want to play in a game (sometimes I want a swashbuckler who isn't built around sneak attack and who isn't losing out on class features by ignoring heavy armor proficiency. It's sad when I could reflavor a barbarian to be a better Musketeer than the fighter).
Like Sakura, I read the first page but couldn't read all of the posts until here.
I support what most of people say about class books, and one of the first posters inspired me to post this. We want options, alternate abilities, not necessarily Feats/Prestige classes.
What I would like in class books would be something along the lines of the AD&D kits, or something along the line the racial substitution levels. You pick your option (for example, 'Samurai' for fighter) and it modifies some of your class traits (the example Samurai could have Diplomacy as a class skill and other perks). We could be saving a LOT of additional classes (both Swashbuckler and Samurai could be modifications of the Fighter class) and we would allow some character concepts early on (how about the rogue ninja who wants to use exotic weapons?) instead of just beyond level 5. Plus, we would still have the traditional classe (like fighters and rogues), only slightly modified to fit the bill.
I'm not very interested in starting another buying crusade on the way to rules bloat, but things that may interest me would be (in order):
Bestiaries (maybe 2 more down the road after the Core one?)
Class Substitutions (racial or just optional)
High level appropriate Feats
An Unearthed Arcana style book with optional rules to help improve high level play
Epic Rules (if well done)
Psionics (again, if well done)
I'm sick and tired of tons of Prestige Classes WotC put out, mainly because of the balance descrepancies. I would rather Paizo put out PrCs slowly, if at all. And the ones that are put out need to be carefully balanced and really fit a niche that makes sense.
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I would like to see all add on strongly reflect the world of Golarian, rather than a collection of generic junk. New prestige classes should have stronger entry requirements. I would like to see some unique spells and items in the hands of the various factions. But most of all, I would hate to be overloaded with a pile of new information that often leads to rules conflicts and endless arguments.
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I think what I get most juiced about are combinations of a really unique and cool Player Classes (1-20 levels) that require a bit of specialized support, both in flavor and crunch. I especially like these set to settings. For example, I really like the Rokugan class books, because they help define a PCs place in a campaign setting. I also liked the Nambe campain setting for similar reasons, however because its such a complete campaign, many of the rules just don't mix well with regular old D&D.
I'd be psyched to get books featuring new classes, feats, spells, items,or even magic systems (such as something Pact Magic in Tome of Magic), that were tied to specific areas of the world in Golarion, better yet (in my opinion) different planets. I'd love to by a book that allowed me to run an entire campaign on say Castrovel or Akiton... Or just have PC from one of those planets.
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In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Discuss.
Yes I am a little buzzed by the Prestige Classes. I was hoping for something a little more Setting Unique (Cultural Templates would have been better).
Still fraked up about it that you didnt go more D&D Cyclopedia so Pathfinder could be a Stand-alone book.There is a distinction between Rules Bloat and critical need-to-know info. What you left out of the Pathfinder section on Dungeon designing...
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Those critical need to know rules on cave ins and support pillars
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100% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover depth=1.1-1.4
10% Subsidence: Width of Cave/Cover Depth=0.1-0.5
The Range depends on the Rock type. The High Thresholds are more likely Granite, midway is Sandstone and Limestone, while the low end of the scale is Dirt/Gravel.
That means that a cave with a 50' cross section sitting below 20' of rock has a value of 2.5 (well in excess of 100% Subsidence): Such a cave began to transfer the effects of subsidence to the surface back at 10% so the ground will be sagging and unless this chamber is propped up with columns it will collapse like a sinkhole.
Likewise a 10' wide tunnel below 20' of rock has a value of 0.5 (at the upper limit of 10% subsidence). Here the stress of failure has reached the surface - Fine cracks that will probably not be visible at the surface due to topsoil.
Column Width= 0.12 x cover depth
Goaf (space between columns) width = 0.6 x cover depth.
Column Width: 0.12 x 20' = 2.4'
Column Spacing: 0.6 x 20' = 12'
That is a Chamber supported by 2.4' wide columns spaced 12' apart. Inflict some damage to those columns (beyond the damage inflicted by the existing subsidence) and the entire Dungeon will have to be tested (%percentage roll for each chamber and corridor) as to whether it has collapsed with the mountain coming down on the Adventurers.
When Subsidence exceeds 10% it begins to show at the surface. To determine the Surface Area Affected by Subsidence, you must take a 35 degree angle from the bottom of the workings edge. This means that even Rock that doesn’t overlap a collapsed/failing Cave will be showing failure. The Actual depth of collapse is measured by:
Subsidence= 0.8 x cave height
So our 50' cross section cave with its 15' high chamber will if and when it collapses create a 12' deep sinkhole with signs of subsidence out to (SIN 35 degrees x 35')= 20' beyond the area of the cave (effectively the 50' cave left a hole 90' across - slopping down into a 12' deep, 50' wide pit).
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what is so hard about that?
"You walk through the door... hold on..." *rolls dice* "The corridor collapses on you. You're all dead. roll new characters."
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"You walk through the door... hold on..." *rolls dice* "The corridor collapses on you. You're all dead. roll new characters."
On the contrary...that is disinformation and you know it...they would have to widen the chamber through mining (like tunnel through the wall from one cave to the next), take out a column supporting the ceiling, or apply damage to the ceiling/floor before that ever happens.
Besides you cant run around having a rule book that refers to these concepts in a design your own dungeon chapter without throwing in the frakin rules that allow you to do so...
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Erik,
Interesting question. My general comment is that 1 monster book + 1 other book per year is probably ok. A couple of specific comments come to mind:
1. Rules bloat would be a huge concern for me. It felt like WotC just went over board with the splat books, and it was just too much. It also created a min-max nightmare for DM's. As a DM, I want to be able to say that players can use any official published product. However the truth is that there are some killer combinations that throw things completely out of whack.
2. A monster book a year is fine, and I have no concern about this. I think that once you start getting past MM5, quality of what is being produced is something that needs to be watched. I think between the SRD, ToH, and what has already been created in Pathfinder, there is a solid 3-4 books worth of material available.
3. I would like to see campaign books for the other planets in the Golarion system. This holds a lot of interest for me.
4. A PH2 book is fine, but I think as one moves past that to PH3+, rules bloat creeps in. I am not convinced that one could continue to create new classes and races every year, and still maintain high quality original content.
5. PrC's - I think a little goes a long way. IMO, new PrC's need to be playtested in order to prevent significant unbalancing. I beleive that it is not critical that all classes be perfectly balanced against each other, but classes that are significantly unabalanced are a problem.
6. There were a couple of posters that mentioned Tome of Magic, and I thought that this was a great hard cover supplement. I would definitely be interested in the Pathfinder version of this.
7. I would be interested in a hardcover mega-dungeon that is more of a sandbox than an adventure path.
8. Regional hardcover books, similar to the FR regional source books would be of interest to me
9. A Pathfinder version of Oriental Adventures would be interesting.
10. If you were going to offer a subscription, I would be interested if the subscribers continue to get the PDF thrown in.
On the topic of Bestiaries I would suggest encounter based books. Examples would be low level dungeons book, a forest wilderness book, a swamp book... etc etc etc. Another type of book would be also by levels such as a book of CR upto 1 book, another one of CR 1-3 etc etc etc. Also it will go far to have 1 page/monster PC sheets that can be printed out for the player's infomation book.
If Pathfinder is published in a support the GM format I feel you will find it a much stronger product line. I am a firm believer in the three hole punch book, the pull out sheets and other such things to make the GM's job more productive.
Database software (even sold empty) that allows the import & export of the owner's work will take this product line that much farther in to the heart of gaming.
Basicly if you make this product line focused on providing to the GM then the GM can provide better to the player and the feedback will show in the constant bottom line.
Rachael Strange
More than anything else, I request that Character Traits be given a core book treatment sooner rather than later.
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I would like to see all add on strongly reflect the world of Golarian, rather than a collection of generic junk.
This would be non-Golarion stuff, I think, so that people who play PFRPG but don't use Golarion would get full use from them. I'd also prefer it to be generic, but not junk (why would one assume that 'generic' would mean 'junk'?).
I would think that there's plenty of DM stuff as well as player stuff, anyhow, that they could publish. If one of the books per year is a monster book, it seems to me that 3 books a year could maintain interest and quality for years, particularly if they go the Unearthed Arcana game options route (which I wholly want them to do).
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I would like to see generic stuff because I don't use the Golarian setting (I use Kenzer and Company's Kingdoms of Kalamar and am working on a home-brew setting). I would also like to see more races (new "half races", plane-touched, fey-touched, plant based, mechanical (ala the Warforged of Ebberon), et cetera) and new core classes (Knight, Favored Soul and what not). Alternatives for classes/races (Arctic based elves, Desert based halflings, and what-not). This could be PFRPG's answer to WotC's Player's Handbook II. Maybe a book for DM's specically about town, dungeon, and world building; and other helpful DM-ing stuff could be another book
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"You walk through the door... hold on..." *rolls dice* "The corridor collapses on you. You're all dead. roll new characters."On the contrary...that is disinformation and you know it...they would have to widen the chamber through mining (like tunnel through the wall from one cave to the next), take out a column supporting the ceiling, or apply damage to the ceiling/floor before that ever happens.
Besides you cant run around having a rule book that refers to these concepts in a design your own dungeon chapter without throwing in the frakin rules that allow you to do so...
Then remove the rules.
I like the column falls- your dead- roll new characters.I really hate complex rules that attempt to recreate physics. They're stupid, never wholley accurate, and create more probelms with people trying to argue realism than they fix in making something feel real.
In short, people like to fight about them and grind the game to a halt.
Player: "Why did the pillar crush me? In physics class we learned that the angle of the floor working against the force striking the floor would have caused the pillar to roll left."
GM: "True!...but it was a MAGIC PILLAR...Your character is dead- now roll a new one or go get more beer."
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Maybe a book for DM's specically about town, dungeon, and world building; and other helpful DM-ing stuff could be another bookA book on urban adventuring and DMing would be awesome, because WotC's Cityscape, I felt, just wasn't good enough.
Speaking as an owner of that book, I have to say that while it tried, it failed and wound up with that 'sewage ooze' they included.
I own Cityscape and Dungeonscape. I was not very impressed with either one.
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I own Cityscape and Dungeonscape. I was not very impressed with either one.
Cityscape had some decent gems in there, it was one of the better later books they released, I mean when you compare it to complete champion or dungeonscape it's not hard to say that yeah it was better.
As a whole though it just felt incomplete.
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I've been playing in a Freeport campaign for year and it's awesome. Books on D&D urban adventuring, though, are often not so good. Apparently it's easier to produce yet another book on oriental adventuring, or on a particular class/role, or whathaveyou*.
*I mean, I guess it really is. But I'd love to see Paizo produce an urban adventures book that was a lot better than Cityscape (and I, and I am sure most of us, don't need model cities in it, something Wotc apparently didn't consider)
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Since several folks want an urban adventuring sourcebook, but don't like Cityscape:
What makes a good urban adventuring sourcebook? What topics would it cover?
Good question. Off the top of my head, some things that would catch my fancy:
The obvious thing, as always, is the normal crunch: PrCs, feats, spells. Although I wouldn't mind core classes, I'd really like to see some variants on core classes (like UA's urban ranger, except that turns out not to be such a good variant and it doesn't really feel like it's embedded in the urban setting, at least not to me). In moderation, of course. And in the best possible taste. Etc, etc.
Personally and this may really be just me, I'd like to see an actual detailed explanation of how cities work and not to be shy about references to historical cities if need be; something that gives the impression that the authors really know what they're talking about which, rightly or wrongly, I didn't feel so much with cityscape (note: it's just a feeling and it certainly isn't an accusation about the writers' actual knowledge and expertise). How is a sewer put together? What happens when (most likely!) you don't have one. How is order preserved? How many buildings for a given population? What fractions of a population might be in which professions? How do cities really work in general, etc, etc. How many taverns, blacksmiths, piano tuners (small physics joke there) would there be, logically and/or historically?
Then, some stuff about how to run an urban campaign, what background information is needed, etc.
What I don't really like in this sort of book:
1. An adventure. I'll probably never use it.
2. Some cities sketched out. I'll never use them.
(I think the postmonster has been making a meal on my posted material D:< )
Those are all nice and follow the main point of source books for me, providing tools and rules to bring an environment to life. However I would also add in a look at how the PCs interact with that environment.
Building destruction come to mind. Mid and above adventures can be as bad for a town as a giant irradiated monster attack. Not just out right destruction but general damage, such as bull rushing a foe into a wooden support. Quick and accessible 'terrain' interaction rules would be a help bring urban encounters to life.
Other background that directly impact the PC are good talking/writing points. Some of the Guides have quick modifications to the prices of food and lodging, those are good and could be expanded to help a GM pick such 'tweeks' based on their particular urban situation. These are preferable to a handful of full stated 'example' taverns or inns.
Disease is another point, and I don't mean epidemics. Something as simple as likely hood of the PCs being exposed to various disease is something that tends to be missing from urban books. Sewers are nice but alerting the 'degree' of disease will make a city feel cleaner or dirtier, adding more 'life'.
Set pieces are nice... once, see City Sights from 2e AD&D. Tools and rules, always better in source books.