Beyond the Core Rulebook


Product Discussion

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Scarab Sages

After a good night sleep I have given some thought to the PrC situation. Like most older systems that have come and gone and had their day (rolemaster) I have seen that as publishers released more and more source or complete books that the classes or PrC got more and more powerful. In fact I think those inclusions unbalanced the system as most table toppers (generalisation) want a powerful character.

Moongose Publishing released their "ultimate" series of books for a wide range of topics, feats, PrC and Spells to name a few. One thing I did notice was that they were balanced. Nothing was too powerful and some character variations had a negative associated with it. The first PrC volume really stood out as they had PrC related to professions or ehanced the PC in a logical manner and made sense as opposed PrC in later WotC books which were just more and more powerful or PrC that were weak in comparison.

A series of core books that were balanced and playtested would be very exciting to add flavour as opposed to power.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Yes, I will subscribe.

I would like a book on additional classes but not to get carried away.

I would love at least one monster book a year (I would even like two) but also I would like to see the monsters from the APs and modules put into a hardcover book.

I am not so interested in psionics but get that many people are. This book I would never use but I am one of many.

I am interested in an epic book.

I think that the Paizo spin on anywork that you do is great. I like the idea of building it from the ground up.

I would also like compendium type books. I hate not knowing where something is.

I would prefer themed books to books that have a smattering of material each time so I have to search for the one thing I want.

And I assume that Paizo will develop books I have not even thought of and could not mention here because you all are much more creative than I.


Erik Mona wrote:

The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.

What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

Discuss.

Form

I would like these to take the form of 200+ page full color hardcovers. In the case of the Bestiaries, I would like them to not only include new monsters, but also collect monsters printed in the previous year. So for example, when Bestiary 2 comes out in say, May 2010, it would collect monsters printed before May 2009 (updating most of the 3.5 monsters you've done to PFRPG rules). That way, "new monsters" are still a selling point for any adventures released within a year before the Bestiary, but I don't have to buy every single AP issue, Chronicles product, Player's Companion or Society Scenario just to use the monsters in my own campaigns...I just have to wait for my yearly dose.

Subscription
I would much rather pick and choose from individual products.

Titles
In addition to one Bestiary a year, I would like to see "campaign" books that detail a given region of the Pathfinder world beyond the Inner Sea and the associated genre and culture tropes that go with it. Ideally, these books would not only serve as a resource for DMs running the Pathfinder world, but also those who are interested in a particular genre of game, much like WotC's Oriental Adventures was useful to both to fans of Rokugan and those who just wanted to create their own oriental campaigns. These books would include guidelines and advice for running the associated genre/culture as well as classes, feats, spells, and where absolutely necessary, new races and skills, to better represent the tropes of the genre/culture. A partial list of titles I'd be interested in (in no particular order):

1) Tian Xa / Oriental Adventures
2) Casmaron / Arabian Nights
3) Arcadia / Age of Exploration
4) The Shackles / Swashbuckling High-Seas adventures
5) Ustalav / Gothic Horror (in the tradition of Ravenloft)
6) Akiton, Castrovel, and Beyond! / Sword and Planet Genre resource.*
7) The Planes / Essentially, Golarion's Planescape/Sigil.

* On second thought, I think this one is probably my favorite, since no other d20 company has really covered the sword and planet genre in any real way.

Beyond that, I think a series of "Core Rules Suppplement" books divided between new player options and alternative mechanics, much like WotC's Unearthed Arcana, would be great as an annual release. While I understand people's desire for them, I really must protest the idea of class-themed books, because it would be four years before we got a "set" to cover the core four at the rate of one title a year. I personally prefer to have my power creep across the board, rather than let one class creep up each year.

Classes
I generally have no problem with new or variant classes, or alternate class features. I personally believe that the core rules are at least four classes away from covering the basics of fantasy archetypes. After playing Arcana Evolved, with the champion, mageblade, and unfettered classes, I can't go back to clunky multiclassed builds to get similar results. Furthermore, I think D&D could use an "expert" class that is comparable to the other adventuring classes in power, to represent merchants, nobles, and explorers who aren't spellcasters and don't rely on backstabbing people in combat. Or at least a rogue variant that gives up sneak attack for more social and support abilities that can fill a similar role.

Races
Unlike classes, I am somewhat averse to adding new races, unless they have a major role in the world. As it is written, Avistan is very human-centric, with the elves being the only "core" race with their own nation. Honestly, one could easily run the first three adventure paths with the assumption that the dwarves are extinct, since most of the ones you meet are already dead, or such minor/generic NPCs they could easily have just been humans. Ditto with halflings and gnomes. Ultimately, it feels like Golarion hardly has room for the "core" races, so why should there be dozens of minorities that have no real place in society?

On the other hand, if you are publishing a new region that has not been covered in the PCS, and it happens to contain a numerous and influential race who are integral to that setting's politics, economics, and metaplot, then I have no problem making them a player option in that region. For example, if you publish a "sword and planet" guide to Akiton and Castrovel, I would like stats for the major races of those worlds. The key thing here is that these races need to have a meaningful place in the world in order to justify their existence as player characters.

Prestige Classes
I hate, loathe, revile, and despise Prestige Classes. I would much rather that these character concepts be handled as either new base classes, variant/alternate class features for existing classes, or feats.

Contributor

I think PRCs are cool, but only in small doses. I think there were too many in 3.x.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

Consider me sold. On a subscription. Assuming it's anything vaguely like what I describe.

Erik Mona wrote:
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

The Complete Whatever, PHB2 and Tome of Battle are EASILY the most useful and frequently accessed materials to my group aside from campaign-setting material.

Erik Mona wrote:
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

Don't worry about rules bloat. It's all optional. And that's the point. If I want to build a dagger-fighter, I NEED a bunch of extra books with specialized feats to make the build viable. The damage output PHB-only just doesn't make it practical to do. While there should never be a "best" build or choice, more options help eliminate the "worst" builds.

More classes. More races. Yes, yes. Please.

Erik Mona wrote:
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

Been playing (regularly) since mid 3.0 and have only had one character (out of somewhere near a hundred) touch a prestige class.

I would FAR rather see a bunch of alternate class abilities like PHB2 has. Let us build our unique characters out of a neat lego box of abilities.

Liberty's Edge

For what it's worth, I would like to see a Pathfinder book similar to WoTC's FR Champions of Valor or Player's Handbook 2. Alternate abilities for classes based on Regions or Organizations would be awesome, especially early on. Having purchased the Pathfinder Gazeteer, all I can say is I want more!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Darrin Drader wrote:
A book that takes on vehicles - ships, chariots, airships, sandgliders, etc.

Let me second this motion wholeheartedly. I want to have some epic Osiriani chariot battles at some point, and I have yet to find a d20 vehicle system that is satisfactory. I think it would be a great job for Paizo to tackle at some point, given the great opportunity for seaborne adventure in Golarion as well as chariots, etc.


Another suggestion: Paizo's take on the Planes?
---
Very Interested: EpicPathfinder.
Not Interested at all: Psionics ... ...


thefishcometh wrote:
Darrin Drader wrote:
A book that takes on vehicles - ships, chariots, airships, sandgliders, etc.
Let me second this motion wholeheartedly. I want to have some epic Osiriani chariot battles at some point, and I have yet to find a d20 vehicle system that is satisfactory. I think it would be a great job for Paizo to tackle at some point, given the great opportunity for seaborne adventure in Golarion as well as chariots, etc.

Oh, nice idea.

Standard Mounts
- Horses
- Elephants
- Sandworms

Mechanical Mounts
- Chariots
- Sandglider
- Clockwork Golems
- Catapult Transit System

Aerial Mounts
- Eagles
- Dragonriders
- Flying Carpets
- Balloons
- Airships

Sea Mounts
- Dolphins
- Seasnakes
- Ships
- Submarines

etc.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

I'd like to throw another side question in here...

If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?

From what I've seen, you'd have to. Almost everyone agrees that Epic and Psionics for 3.0/3.5 didn't work. What they don't agree on is how to fix it. For that, I trust you Paizo.


I'm not sold on the idea of subscribing as limited $$ makes me a picky shopper. Psionics haven't been cool since, oh 1st edition but I'll buy into it after you've torn into it.
What I would absolutely buy: Epic book, bestiaries, and a book that sets out alternate rules from the playtest that did not make the final cut.

Prestige classes? When I first heard about them I envisioned elite versions of standard classes, not the niche mutations that are running rampant. So I would never miss them if they went away.

Scarab Sages

Ross Byers wrote:
I'd like Paizo to time it's releases together, similar to how the Guide to Korvosa came out at the same time as CotCT. For instance, if/when a psionics book comes out, it should come out around the same time as the Guide to Vudra.

Also picking up on this point.

In catching up with the forums here... there seems to be ALOT of excellent releases shortly after christmas.

I would propose a strategic release of these books so they do not clash with other big releases.

I do not want them release at a set time... just at times when there is not so much other new material coming.


James Jacobs wrote:

I'd like to throw another side question in here...

If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?

I'd love to see Paizo's take on Epic Level adventuring! Frankly, those rules could use an overhaul. Speaking for myself, if Paizo came out with its own Epic rules, I'd be very interested, and I think my gaming friends would be as well.


I skipped to the end to post so forgive me if I touch on something already stated.

I think that the strength of Pathfinder is going to be the Golarion setting. I think folks will buy it for Golarion and keep with it for Golarion. Similar to how Runequest is only worth playing in Glorantha.

I think going generic for the core is going to be a mistake. There's plenty of generic out there for the playing. Rise of the Runelords and the incredible tapestry being weaved of Golarion drew me into Pathfinder. All of that was Golarion.

And I don't think that making it Golarion-oriented would make it any less useable for homebrew campaigns. Rules are rules. The rest is just illustration.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013

In fact, I am adapting my upcoming ROkugan campaign to use the Pathfinder rules and we aren't playing in Golarion at all.

If it's gonna be the Next Big Thing, it has to serve any kind of campaign - fantasy, oriental, adapted to Forgotten Realms, modern, steampunk. I don't at all think Paizo should think any less than being the new 'world's most popular roleplaying game'.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I'd love to have such a line of products, and I'd most certainly *want* to subscribe to it, as well -- but at some point, we're going to be getting into the area where the cost of shipping starts to exceed the cost of the products in the shipment... Any idea how that could be resolved for European customers?


I’ll add my opinion here, but I’m doing so with some trepidation since I seem to be in a minority on some major issues.

First I’m fine with a small number of books released a year. 2-3 sounds about right, and for me, and I think everyone agrees wholly on this.

The cost per book your suggesting seems decent, but it’s not so much cost as it is the content that’s important

Titles I would prefer are ones that help with world building itself instead of specific campaign setting. Basically a book that helps the game master creates a setting with a horror theme, or a swashbuckling/seafaring one would peak my interest then recreating another version of forgotten realms.

This is the major area where I differ then most people. I think we should create new base classes, at the rate of 2-3 a year, and prestige classes at around 10-12 a year. I disagree on the class variants, which I’m not a big fan of (most of which I hate), and the concept of using multi-classing to try to fiddle out a character concept, simple put multi-classing is a failed concept it doesn’t work, never had and never will. However, I’ll just hold my tongue on the issue, but it is a possible deal breaker if we end up going the true twenty route.

I’ll admit there is a glut of prestige class, which can be a problem, but I’d rather see to many prestige classes then having to rely on multi-classing, it’s just time people realizes it’s a failed system.


I'm interested in a few specific types of books:

The aforementioned book regarding vehicles (and mounts preferably) is a necessity. Mounted and vehicular combat are simply ignored in most rulebooks. TThese also dovetail neatly into the idea of mass combat rules. There should definitely be mass combat rules as well as a set of 3.5 style tactical feats so your NPC warriors can be properly vetted for formation work. Also, rules for sieges and ways to defend a castle when your enemy can fly, etc. Basically, I want a better version of Heroes of Battle. While you're at it, replace the style of army listing they had in the back with a more generic version of different types of troops, regular and irregular. For instance, what kind of equipment, feats, and skills would a regular pikemen have? What about a combat engineer? What about different types of cavalry? For inspiration I direct you towards the 2e DMG. Seriously, I would buy this book so fast you'd look down and wonder where the book went and why your hands are full of cash.

You know, it would also be nice to cover some of the more bizarre circumstances that can arise in the game, such as combat at multiple heights (for, say, a straight down mine shaft where the fighting is occuring up and down the shaft, or for a flying encounter). I realize these are probably going to be mere explanations of existing rules, but I think it could be really useful anyway.

While I'm at it, I'll shoot for the moon and look for books on low-magic campaigns (I love Iron Heroes, but it simply doesn't provide enough character classes, and some overlap already, and they ignored mounted combat as well), or for making alchemy more useful.

In addition, I'd love to see books of class variants (I really loved substitution levels) for all kinds of things, like elemental variants (for your Arabian style campaigns).

I'll be greedy and ask for rules on organizations, a la the Affiliations system in the PHB II (come on, you guys used it in Dungeon, you must know how lovely it was).

I don't suppose you can work in a book on the more mundane things in life, like how to provide a workable economy, with steady food and water supplies for cities, and a list of all the ridiculous mundane goods your local town likely has. Preferably this would include crafting rules that make sense and would include a useful guide to incorporating your PC's profession into his adventuring career.

Hmm, let's see how many books that could be consolidated into: One book (The Definitive Guide to Combat) to cover the mass combat rules, combat in odd situations, etc. One book to cover low-magic conditions, including such things as a more useful system of alchemy. Heck, let's add all the mundane things to that book as you'll need a better crafting system for the low-magic setting anyway (and Alchemy uses Craft too).

Sweet, that's only about one year's worth of books if you include a bestiary too. That means you can put variant class abilities in books devoted to classes. Considering that the PFPRG Core is filled with lots of stuff you might be able to cover every class in-depth in one book if you aren't hellbent on filling it with feats and PrC's no one will ever use. Heck, you could do a single volume covering all the core races plus new ones and monster PC's (which are a must) like this too.

If you included stuff like this I'd subscribe even though I'd likely never use the Epic or Psionics stuff that a lot of people want to see.

I think I'll quit talking now and try to remember what I was doing before I saw this thread more than an hour ago.


I like hardbacks. I prefer them over softbacks due to the fact that I am very particular about what I buy (mostly Pathfinder stuff only, with the odd other item like Dark Heresy), and am happy to splash out when I do buy stuff.

I would be very happy about 2-3 books a year, and in order of lust I would want to see the following:

Epic. Come on, you guys are the best in the world at this stuff and you just know you could make it awesome!

Bestiaries - themed. In order of themes: Humanoids (gobliniods et al), Horror (and get Nicolas Logue in on this one), Undead

Theme books, meaning how to take the core rules and augment them to give your entire game a strong theme. For example (and this makes me groan with pleasure thinking about it): Pirates: using the Pathfinder RPG to play a massive, immersive pirate campaign. These would allow you to do a few new classes, PrC, feats, spells, races, monsters, all in one book. I would love to see Pirates, Grime/Low-Fantasy, Monsters (playing as monsters), Oriental, etc.


Erik Mona wrote:


What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

That would be good but i would be willing to pay more for good content, especially if it fits into my world well, which most of everything does.

Erik Mona wrote:

What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?[/qoute]

Psionics are a must, it was one of the best books in 3.5, or at least i think so. I wouldn't want it to change much but getting a face lift or some new/addition material in the form of Base classes/ablities for exsiting ones, races, Feats (can't get enough of those), and powers

Epic rules are also a must, but they must be suported by future books, the total lack of suport for their products by WOTC was quite a bit of a turn off for me, and I think that you can do much better than that.

I would also like rules/sugestions on how to make campaign settings that included stuff about making PRC, races and stuff like that.

I can't stress enought though that it is important to me for the books with in reason suport each other, so if you do both epic and psionic i expect epic psionic rules.

Oh and more monster books are cool, perferable with more boss like monsters.

Erik Mona wrote:

We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?[/qoute]

I don't worry so much, just so long as all the rules acknowledge that the other rules exsite, and what not. Not to say i mind if you keep the number of rules to a minium.

Erik Mona wrote:

Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?[/qoute]

As seems the consensus that PRC are fun, but the should be unique, and meaningful, and most importantly well tested, but than less of them than WOTC would be apreciated. On the note of PRCs unless it is a book about a specific setting i don't want very setting specific PRCs.


A note on what I would like to see in any prestige classes. A character should be GREAT at what they do, when sticking to their base class. A PrC should fill a niche, or make the characters absolutely freakin' awesome. An example: a base class archer should be able to do amazing things, but a PrC archer needs to add something unique & OUTSTANDING to the mix. Not overpowered, but just have something you cant envision as a feat tree. If you cant do that, then please just have the abilities be a unique feat tree.

The Exchange

Erik Mona wrote:

In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.

That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.

The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.

What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

Discuss.

For subscriptions IF there was a pdf only subscription yes; if not no (a bit short on bookshelf space, but plenty on the hard drive :))

2-3 seems reasonable.

One point to make here before it goes further is that no matter what gets published (monsters, PrCs, base classes, races etc.) there will be people who love or loath either the general concept or the specific execution so bear in mind to all other posters: the staff'll try their best but won't please everyone.

Now that that is out of the way...

Ideas I would like to see: Epic, Psionics (could go with either a tweaking of the present system or something totally new), new bestiaries (guaranteed to happen but felt like saying it anyway), Complete type books with more of an emphasis on flavour ideas for existing classes but SOME new crunch as well, generic environment books covering terrain like mountains and marshes WotC didn't get to with Frostburn through Dungeonscape and HoB and HoH. A DM focused worldbuilding book to contain mass battle rules, vehicle rules, economics, city building, governance, laws

New races and classes and variants of existing races and classes (either through specialist classes, substitution levels, and/or 3.x UA type variant class features all work) are fine to me. A flight capable player race would definitely be welcome.

With PrCs probably every single PrC out there has at least some support so be judicious about PrCs but don't kill them off completely either.

Scarab Sages

Erik Mona wrote:

In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.

That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.

The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.

What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

Discuss.

I would like to see a book focusing on things high level (12-20) characters can do that are not directly related to melee or dungeoneering, such as building strongholds, clearing wilderness, exploring the planes, raising an army, establishing a trading empire or church - the kind of things that should be a goal or endgame for powerful PCs. I have never seen much on this topic in any previous edition.

I would definitely be interested in subscribing to a series of supplemental rulesbooks.

I'm not so keen on new races - Golarion seems fine as it is. New classes and prestige classes are fine as long as they are interesting and fill a niche.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

I'd like to throw another side question in here...

If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?

Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).

Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)

Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?

couldnt agree more.

Rebuild both from the ground up.

Psionics and Epic. Make them 'work' in the system as opposed to seeming like they were poorly built room additions.

now what would I like to see in books?

3 a year.

#1 being a monster manual. I think theres enough monsters out there in the archives of D&D (including the BESM books) to probably do 10 books...;) let alone the new ones thought of by the Paizo staff.

#2 being a major rule book (like Psionics/Epic/Other Planar/Underwater adventures/special settings rules...arctic/jungle/Urban et al)---in this keep PRC's to a minimum, keep new spells to a small portion. Focus on all the things needed to bring this portion of the camepaign to life.

---One of the things Ive missed about 3rd edition Psi is lack of Wild talents...how anyone could have a single psionic ability. Why not make it a feat? I think the Psion could learn a lot from how the Sorceror was done. Keep the Psychic Warrior...out with the Soul Knife...(feats for a psychic warrior) Put in some kind of Psychic Skill Monkey...and a Psychic Healer and out with all the rest. So 4 Psi classes.---

#3 being player fluff and crunch. (Guilds, followers, Combat manuevers, How to build certain kind of characters...) Not like the complete books, but of similar vein. "How to use the current rules to create this kind of class...." add a few pieces of equipment in these books, add some interesting ooo wow things, have some character build examples. and 'how to' stuff for both the player and DM...(like the reputation thing for the bard back in 2nd ed. or the how to create martial arts styles from the original oriental adventures. or how to run a thieves guild like in the complete thief.....

This is what Id like to see.

Liberty's Edge

Shem wrote:
I would also like compendium type books. I hate not knowing where something is.

Actually, yes. A book that compiled all the feats, equipment and spells from Pathfinder sourcebooks, modules and scenarios up to publishing would be a big hit in my games.

Good one!

-DM Jeff

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

For the number of compendiums I've bought, I've gotten surprisingly little use out of them - the exceptions being the 3.5E Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium. The compiled Von Richten's, Encylopedia Magica and Wizard and Priest's spell compendiums mainly just sit on my shelf gathering dust, and weren't used a whole lot even when I was playing 2nd.

The other use I have with compediums is that they become obsolete even as they go on sale.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'll echo the "tightly themed" book a year sentiment.

I'm ok with Prestige Classes so long as they are Golarion-specific and actually fill a niche. I don't need bounty hunter, etc. style prestige classes.

I'm also ok with core classes that are also Golarion specific.

And while Epic play is of zero interest to me, I can appreciate the fan base's desire for better Epic rules.


Dread wrote:
One of the things Ive missed about 3rd edition Psi is lack of Wild talents...how anyone could have a single psionic ability. Why not make it a feat? I think the Psion could learn a lot from how the Sorceror was done. Keep the Psychic Warrior...out with the Soul Knife...(feats for a psychic warrior) Put in some kind of Psychic Skill Monkey...and a Psychic Healer and out with all the rest. So 4 Psi classes.

The XPH had a feat in a sidebar called Hidden Talent that you could use for a psi-heavy campaign, giving you 2 PPs and a single 1st level power IIRC. For some reason, it's not included in the SRD.

In Complete Psionic, they included the Lurk which was supposed to be a psionic thief and two kinda-priest classes (Ardent and Divine Mind). None of those three were very good classes (IIRC, the Ardent's healing was about half as good as a cleric's, and the lurk only had 4 skill points), but at least they tried.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I have no need for Psionics or Epic books.

More races or also something which I don't need. Some new classes might be fine, but I think we already have enough.

I also don't need more PrCl. If you keep them focused, and only do a few that might be ok, but there are far too many out there already!

"Complete" books would make me not to subscribe, because I never really used any of them in 3E. Those books are the stuff why a system could become too croweded with rules and exceptions, as well as very special options.

However, I loved the "Tome of Magic" from WotC. The three described versions of Magic are awesome and something along those lines would be a must-have for me!

I loved the "Volo's Guide to XXX" books for the Forgotten Realms. Such a thing for Golarion would be too cool not to have. As well as some "real" PF-Chronicles...

Yep, I am all for fluff, and less for crunch!

A book which details the various secret and powergroups of Golarion in more detail would be awesome!

And finally - I would love it, if you'd do those books like the Beta print-version and not in hardcover! Far easier to use and VERY good binding as well! Would make them cheaper as well, wouldn't it?!

And thanx for asking us in the first place!


Sebastian wrote:
Also, I've said it before, but I would absolutely love it if you guys would release a single volume campaign book (which probably does not fall under the guise of a core rulebook) that is a campaign setting for the Pathfinder red planet

While i agree that settings for the other planetary bodies in golarion's system would be nice, i think we need to get the other half of THIS world first. Finish the overall details of Golarion, THEN move on to other places. We get Vudra, Tian Xia, and the rest, then the other planets can have a spotlight.

Bestiaries are always going to be popular. Going to need one of those a year i would think just to cover the monsters that are put out in the adventure paths, modules, and companions.

as for as optional rules, the KISS system would be a good idea to enforce here. Keep it simple. Perhaps a book on magical items, a wilderness/urban book, arms and equipment guide, that sort of thing.

However, more books are only going to be accepted and bought if the quality is maintained or improved. Considering the number of spelling errors and formatting errors i see in the products so far I would hate to see what might happen if 2 or 3 more hardbacks were added to the production schedule

Liberty's Edge

Staffan Johansson wrote:
Dread wrote:
One of the things Ive missed about 3rd edition Psi is lack of Wild talents...how anyone could have a single psionic ability. Why not make it a feat? I think the Psion could learn a lot from how the Sorceror was done. Keep the Psychic Warrior...out with the Soul Knife...(feats for a psychic warrior) Put in some kind of Psychic Skill Monkey...and a Psychic Healer and out with all the rest. So 4 Psi classes.

The XPH had a feat in a sidebar called Hidden Talent that you could use for a psi-heavy campaign, giving you 2 PPs and a single 1st level power IIRC. For some reason, it's not included in the SRD.

In Complete Psionic, they included the Lurk which was supposed to be a psionic thief and two kinda-priest classes (Ardent and Divine Mind). None of those three were very good classes (IIRC, the Ardent's healing was about half as good as a cleric's, and the lurk only had 4 skill points), but at least they tried.

Yes I have and read over all of that. I just dont think that particular feat 'Hidden Talent', captures what I had in mind...and more important, I think The Ardent and Divine Mind kinda...well...sucked ;) The Lurk was ok, but lost something in the translation...Ive never known anyone to want to play the class. To me that means something.

But thanks for bringing them up.

One more thing to the powers that be...I dislike the glut of PRC's.

To me a PRC should only be created for the following reasons: 1) to help create a class that provides for certain Multi-class features. or 2) for a area specific type 'specialist'

The Multiclass example-
The A Fighter/Rogue
1. who wants the BAB of a Fighter but the Trapfinding a skill selction of the Rogue: A Delver--- An explorer of ruins.
2. who wants the better weapon choices and better fort saves but is willing to go lightly armored getting Evasion and the ability to not be caught flat footed: A Swashbuckler--- A derring do warrior.

I have always been against the creation of new classes just for the sake of creating new classes as whiz-bang. I think the core is fine...with perhaps a few others...but use the PRC system to help players get the combination of Core Class features they might want.

The area specialist is pretty evident, so I wont bore you with details. The Fogotten Realms setting did a good job of providing us examples plenty

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Delver,

Just as an FYI, check out Secrets of Pact magic for a 'big book o'binders'

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dryder wrote:
I loved the "Volo's Guide to XXX" books for the Forgotten Realms. Such a thing for Golarion would be too cool not to have. As well as some "real" PF-Chronicles...

Seconded! The Volo's Guide to... series are still some of my favorite books, and among only a handful of previous edition books that I still actively flip through. Heck, even some "genuine" Pathfinder chapbooks (embellished bootlegs or not) would rock! Although I guess this would be more for the Golarion Pathfinder than the PathfinderRPG.

Liberty's Edge

Gnome-Eater wrote:
Uncovered Paths (Unearthed Arcana) - I think this could be a super fun addition to the PRPG rules. I'm sure the team that worked on the project, those that contributed to it, and the community itself had tons of ideas that couldn't fit or weren't in the spirit of "backwards compatible." With the UP (Uncovered Paths) you guys could change things to your hearts content and I'm sure it would be a brilliant take on the rules.

I absolutely love the title for this idea. This is a must do!

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

My 1 cent. (I don't really think it's worth 2).

I am probably not a "target" RPG game buyer in that I don't buy every supplement that comes out; I tend to keep my purchases to a minimum, to what I think I will only truly, truly use and informs me as both a DM and a player. So what DO I happily plonk my money down for, when I am oft reluctant to buy a splat?

* Useful, well written setting information and world/campaign building advice. Details on how to handle certain terrain and "Ecology of the Monster" kind of descriptions.

* Things that help me do off-the-cuff GMing/speed up my prep (I write my own adventures, but like to have things I can grab to fill in the gaps in my campaign design), like well-designed NPC stats, maps, random encounter and trait tables (particularly unusual or amusing ones). Mechanics and guidelines for things like rapid NPC generation, teamwork "feats", and organization building.

* Alternative class abilities. I am NOT interested in a gazillion EXTRA classes when there's a dozen or so perfectly good ones in the core rules, and being an English major I can't count much past 12 anyway, I'd rather not learn/track more classes I or other people can take, BUT I do like the alternate character path/class options that showed up in some better D&D supplements for folks who still want to tweak or individualize their builds more.

* Advice on new applications of existing skills and feats.

* Magic items, when well-suited to the theme of the book.

Features that draw me ONLY in certain circumstances:

* Prestige classes ONLY when they help add crunch to--in a way that nothing else can do well--specific setting fluff, and encourage roleplay (i.e., applying to join the Exalted Guild of Thusnsuch can be an adventure in itself). Prestige classes that fill a valuable roleplaying niche that a standard class/multiclass build cannot in any way do. But yes, for the most part, I am damned sick of Prestige Classes. One a book, or one book a year that has a couple of them in it at most would be fine with me (and I wouldn't cry if there weren't any more beyond core).

* Feats, again only when adding crunch to the fluff described in the book, and increasing options WITHOUT power creep. I don't want to see more than a few in a single book.

* Cleric domains, again, when extremely well suited to the theme of the book and when they accomplish something no other domain does.

* Races in moderation, and no new elves. (I like elves, but we have enough.) And no living constructs, please.

Features that make me put the book down in disgust:

* New spells. This is not a popular opinion, I know, but the core spell list is huge, and adding to it potentially is just a big headache for me (especially for divine spells). I don't want to feel like I am expected to consult 5 books to just to build an effective wizard.

* New classes. Again, there are enough, especially with the added flexibility Pathfinder's core classes have. And I especially get ticked off when a book that features new classes that are "optional", but then half the book addresses feats/spells/abilities that only these optional classes can use, when the book is marketed as a general gameplay/setting aid by all players.

* Anything that is generally nothing BUT classes, prestige classes, spells, and feats. Anything resembling "The Complete Player Cheese" line of products.

* Generally anything that adds noticeably to power creep.

Okay, that was a silly long 1 cent opinion. I'll go back to lurking now.

Dark Archive

Erik Mona wrote:
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

I agree with the person who said books following the 2e model would be better. Alternative builds and backgrounds, ways to flesh out niche characters within a given class, alternative higher level developments that are not prestige classes. Things like, "So you're a 14th level fighter, you've raided every known dungeon, and you have no head politics- now what?" Or something like, "You're a monk in the Occidental tradition, from a country that is western in philosophy, and the monastary is Teutonic in nature. So are you a monk, or are you a fighter, or are you a priest?" Source material that answers those kinds of questions in a way that relates to the current d20 model would great.

To go along with that, it would be nice to see your level of development applied to DM sourcebooks: Villians, Worldbuilding, Focused Campaigns (particularly "Muskets and Magic"). I also agree that a "Jungle Sourcebook" would be way freakin' cool. Something like the 1e "Dungeoneers Survival Guide" and "Wilderness Survival Guide" (both of which I still use for source material).

A good set of Psionics would be nice. I haven't used psionics in a while because they are just too poorly built. A good design might bring me back, and I'm sure my group would appreciate that.

I'm ambivalent about epic rules, it's just not my bag. However, if you could do something thematically similar to the old "Immortals" box set rules, that would be cool.

I would be very excited to see a new "Savage Species."

I would love to see a book for running "low magic, high adventure" campaigns. Campaigns that look like movies like "Indiana Jones", "Bourne Trilogy", "The Mummy", or "3 Musketeers." Let's face it, one cleric with a good turn ability can wreck an entire ghost story adventure. How lame would "The Haunting" have been if a Priest showed up and said, "I channel and destroy the spirits that are haunting this house."

Erik Mona wrote:
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

I would like to see that held as "Alternative" rules. I really don't want to see a constant expansion of the Core Rules. If I'm recruiting someone in, I would like to be able to say, "This one book has all the Core Rules. That's it, you're done." I don't want a ton of new Core classes and races that I have to tell my players they can't use because they don't fit my world. If they're optional books, it's a lot easier. Also, if I ever go back to the Con Gaming World, I don't want to have to carry half-a-dozen Core books to the table. If I'm DMing at a Con, I only want to have to have 3 books.

Erik Mona wrote:
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

Prestige classes didn't bother me as long as they brought something worthwhile to the table. I think there was an overabundance of them, and I think there were too many "organization specific" prestige classes. Those make sense in a campaign book, they don't make sense in a class book. Also, a little less repetition would be nice. Rogues, Rangers, and Fighters should all be able to qualify as Snipers the same way, especialy with the current model for skills.

Scarab Sages

My biggest concern is the timing of shipments. My ideal shipping schedule, assuming 3 rulebooks a year, would be:

JAN
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Companion
FEB
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Rulebook
MAR
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Companion
APR
Pathfinder, Chronicles
MAY
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Companion
JUN
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Rulebook
JUL
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Companion
AUG
Pathfinder, Chronicles
SEPT
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Companion
OCT
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Rulebook
NOV
Pathfinder, Chronicles, Companion
DEC
Pathfinder, Chronicles

I'm fine with 4 as well, but again I'd prefer them spread out as best as possible.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Instead of more Epic level books, personally I'd get far more use, as a DM, out of a book (or books) specializing in levels 10-20, both from a DM and a players perspective. The DM book could include chapters on how to better cope with high level NPC design, short cuts to building NPC's, quick-build monsters including templates, short, 1-2 page sample towns/cities, a chapter listing just a few dozen NPC's pre-made, pre-built NPC's of various levels, ie, "generic 8th level necromancer", "generic 12th level evoker", "generic 16th level grappler specialist" etc. Also, include DM suggestions on how to quickly build NPC strongholds (wizards towers, evil clerics temples, castle dungeons, abandoned mines, generic caves, etc. You throw an entire book together covering all of these things and I'll have a check out to you tomorrow!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Other things I'd like to see in new rules books are:

New sorcerer bloodlines
New wizard schools (think 2E Tome of Magic, elemental schools of magic, wild magic, etc., there's lots of ways to categorize magic)
New Domains
New animal companions (assuming that the alternate version Jason posted is similar to the final version.)
New rogue talents
New barbarian rage powers
New monk uses for ki (gained as alternate class features or through feats)
New paladin uses for lay on hands (gained as alternate class features or through feats)

Overall, new support for the new rules. Don't be limited to what 3E had in new feats and classes/PrC.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Please thread carefully down that path!

My expectations for hardcovers would be fairly high and I was mostly un-impressed or flat out disappointed with what I got in 3.5. I was always impressed by the use of the base rules by Paizo’s people to create original builds (Amiri’s use of a Large sized Bastard sword for exemple).

I’m not sure how much new crunch (classes, feats, spells, PrCs, etc.) is needed to better the game beyond core. Some probably but it should be kept under tight control. I don’t use Psionics and Epic doesn’t interest me at this point, so I’ll let other comment on that.

I’m a fan of booklets, Gazetteers are one of my old-time favourites and I do enjoy the formats of the Pathfinder Chronicles and Companions, they fill in nicely.

I think the best options would be Variants for classes (Sorceror Bloodlines, Elemental wizard specialist, Social Rogue, Light Fighter, etc.) and even spells. OotS had a nice comment on the Samurai “class”-situation, not every name in the dictionary should be a class or PrC.

I’d rather see books following themes (Outdoors, Political-intrigue, Stealth, High Magic, Low Magic, War, Plane Hopping, Knighthood, etc.) and offer fluff, flavour, options and variants for every class to fit in that theme. Maybe a PrC once in a while. I prefer PrC to new classes.

Create stuff you (at Paizo) would use more than once.

Thanks for asking!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I think splat books would be a mistake.

Paizo, your strength is adventures. I understand the need to create a new core book, to keep a version of the rules in print which supports your adventures.

I have a couple thousand dollars in 3.5 material that keeps me perfectly happy. I'm not looking to replace it with a new iteration of the same material, with Sean's version of Ghostwalk, or Jason's take on Dungeonscape or James' ideas on Lords of Madness.

Scarab Sages

Splatbooks are a necessity. While I know I will be converting all my old 3.5 books to match up with Pathfinder, new feats, spells, prestige classes, class abilities, and the like are what help to keep the game fresh. Players (at least my own) enjoy trying new things, and although they do keep coming back to old standards at times, the best part about D&D was the huge amount of options.

Just beware the power creep. :)

Liberty's Edge

An additional thought I want add against expansion books:

A premise of the OGL system, as stated by Monte Cook and applauded by many people, is that of system mastery; that increased proficiency with the system produces superior game play experiences.

Consider any game where the rules change not yearly, but seasonly.
How exactly can anyone expect to master the system?
On a yearly basis, take baseball for example. Say we extend the designated hitter rule to both leagues. Then to the catcher. Then to all positions. Then we add designated runners. Then we allow casual interchange between all of them. Then we allow pitchers to return to the game after being replaced.
Of course those are minor if we start changing core rules of the game. Say we begin altering the number of innings. Changing the number of strikes and balls yearly. Add or subtract bases. Add other ways to score.

That is what expansion books inevitably do to a game system, particularly one like the OGL, and especially with new classes and prestige classes. New feats and spells are more like adding too many expansion teams and diluting the overall strength and quality of the league, with magic items and monsters the yearly draft.
This was a key lesson of the Living Greyhawk campaign, and why rebuilding characters was an entire chapter of the PHB II. At a certain point characters built "previously" become ludicrously underpowered, and any "system mastery" benefit is completely lost as new materials are released.

If system mastery is considered a relevant, and indeed important, element of the game, then stop, think, think twice, then think one more time about every single piece of expansion material, and in particular about committing to an entire line of such material.
Also remember that if Paizo adds a line, even of just one or two books plus a monster book every year, then they have a commitment and obligation to customers to produce such, even if they have no otherwise suitable material available to release. New rules are not new adventures. They require a significantly different level of commitment and work to write, develop and produce. Everyone knows what happened when TSR and WotC started running short but still needed a new book on the schedule.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Samuel Weiss wrote:
... smart stuff ...

What he said!

Dark Archive

I'd like to see something similar to what FR did. A series of books with a spotlight on a specific region, one with a spotlight on the races, one with a spotlight on the 'magic of' golarion, and yes, one on the monsters too (perhaps even expanded to make a series of monster books).. I liked the ratio of fluff/crunch with regards to FR, and i'd love to see something similar to (but not the same as) that in PF

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Samuel Weiss wrote:
An additional thought I want add against expansion books: ... stuff

Problem with that premise is that expansion books (in this industry) are considered important to showing that the game is healthy and alive. I applaud Paizo for intentionally keeping the expansion under control and limitting themselves to a set schedule, but not doing any at all would have the same result as not putting out the core book (only delaying the end result, but not by much).

And while some people do not want things like psionics, epic rules, binders, shadow magic, etc, some people do. People like me that prefer the classes in the ToM to anything in the PHB, we'll get bored with being "just another wizard" really quick. Ignoring that sector of the market is leaving money on the table. Paizo is smart for providing those people a product they want. And Paizo is aware they will not sell as many expansions as they core books, they expect that. IIRC, Lisa was apart of the group that researched that little detail.

I trust Paizo will not put out books filled with uninspired drivel simply to fill page count or to pad their bottom line. There's alot of smart cookies there. They earned my trust.


Erik Mona wrote:


What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

I would love to see new rulebooks.

I wouldn't be interested in rulebooks under a subscription plan.

New classes - meh. Easier to keep rules straight with fewer base classes.
New races - sounds good, but I'd love more focus on new fantasy races that don't break the Tolkienesque view of fantasy. I didn't really care for Dragonborn or Tieflings etc.

I'm only sick of prestige classes insofar as everyone tries to get the UBER prestige class. I'd really like PrC's to stick to world-specific or flavor specific things, stuff with meaning behind it.

Scarab Sages

I am not a big fan of a series of splat books with pages of new rules and overall craziness that won’t relate to my game. Overall the Wizards splat book strategy made me game weary. I almost dropped out of the hobby.

What I would like to see Paizo do is create "adventures" that house the new rules.
… So say a …
Boxed set …
with…
1) a Players book with the new rules, classes etc… and
2) a DM book with an adventure. This adventure would have a “unique trainer” for specific PRCs, Feats, Classes, spells, skills…. as well as having an environment that would be designed to showcase said abilities.

In a way you could treat these things as loot for the players.
When talking to your friends you could brag about your 15th level Fighter with the Sauhagin Wrestling feat. And other would sit around the table and say .. “Oh yea, I played in that adventure… very cool.”

Anyhow … that’s my two.

T

Liberty's Edge

DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Problem with that premise is that expansion books (in this industry) are considered important to showing that the game is healthy and alive.

The problem with that premise is that it is a premise, and is contraindicated by several very significant factors that are routinely ignored in favor of a conventional wisdom based on that unproven, and quite possibly unprovable, premise.

Conversely, proof that such books are not needed for a product line to be healthy and alive is absurdly easy to find.

DMcCoy1693 wrote:
I applaud Paizo for intentionally keeping the expansion under control and limitting themselves to a set schedule, but not doing any at all would have the same result as not putting out the core book (only delaying the end result, but not by much).

The end result of what, making mastering the game system impossible?

DMcCoy1693 wrote:
And while some people do not want things like psionics, epic rules, binders, shadow magic, etc, some people do. People like me that prefer the classes in the ToM to anything in the PHB, we'll get bored with being "just another wizard" really quick. Ignoring that sector of the market is leaving money on the table. Paizo is smart for providing those people a product they want. And Paizo is aware they will not sell as many expansions as they core books, they expect that. IIRC, Lisa was apart of the group that researched that little detail.

Depending on the cost-return ratio for a particular book it may not in fact be leaving money on the table, particularly if it has a long term effect of disrupting your other product lines and creating a general dissatisfaction with the product line.

Or is Paizo prepared to jump the shark and commit to PFRPG 2E in five years right now?
As for people who may or may not become bored or dissatisfied, is catering to them worth alienating the people who do not want such expansions just as quickly? I am sure the answer from WotC is "of course", but again, is Paizo committing to the same criticisms of 3.5 that led to 4E in such a case?

DMcCoy1693 wrote:
I trust Paizo will not put out books filled with uninspired drivel simply to fill page count or to pad their bottom line. There's alot of smart cookies there. They earned my trust.

I can find the same rhetoric about WotC in their forums about both 3.5 and 4E. Yet somehow 3.5 was so horribly broken that 4E was needed, and somehow 4E was so horribly unsatisfying that we are here talking about PFRPG.

Paizo has earned my custom. They have not, and cannot, earn an entitlement to it, no matter how much I may think of any of them as individuals.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This thread has been a really interesting read. Reactions have been mixed, but my overwhelming impression has been a resounding "NO" to prestige classes, and a resounding "YES" to alternative class features.

Prestige classes:

  • Paizo should only print prestige classes in Pathfinder Chronicles or Adventure Path products where they support the campaign setting flavour, they largely don't belong in Pathfinder RPG crunch;
  • Pathfinder RPG is going to be OGL - other companies will publish prestige classes if Paizo doesn't, let it be, listen to your customers;
  • Nonetheless, Paizo should lead by example by releasing occasional well-thought-out prestige classes for required archetypes, hopefully others will learn by example;

Alternate class features:

  • This plays well into the way Paizo have revised the core classes: Rogue talents, Sorcerer bloodlines, etc;
  • During Pathfinder RPG development, the core classes could be further modularised with alternate class features firmly in mind, making it easier to swap one flavour out for another. The easier you make this, the less retro-fitting and hoop-juming you'll need to do when developing alternate class features in future sourcebooks.

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