Stuff
The real question comes in if you feel that PFRPG is only an add on to 3.5 or if you feel that it is a whole new game. If you feel the former, then I can certainly see why you'd feel that you do not want any more crunch. I feel that PFRPG is a whole new game based on 3.5 (just like how 3.5 was a whole new game based on 3.0). A single core book is not going to satisify me.
And I know that I am not the only one out there that feels that way.
EDIT: Ok, I have gone through the whole thread and read everything you have typed very carefully. This really is the only thing that is of any genuine relivance to the topic at hand:
Been there, done that, have the swaybacked steel shelves to prove it, going to save my money and become rich (or at least less poor) this time around.
Everything else you have stated is merely an argument for your position. So you are not interested in supplements. So simply not buy them if you are not interested in them. Then you have the perfect system.
Me, I want expansions. So this thread is targeted more towards me then to you.
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StuffThe real question comes in if you feel that PFRPG is only an add on to 3.5 or if you feel that it is a whole new game. If you feel the former, then I can certainly see why you'd feel that you do not want any more crunch. I feel that PFRPG is a whole new game based on 3.5 (just like how 3.5 was a whole new game based on 3.0). A single core book is not going to satisify me.
And I know that I am not the only one out there that feels that way.
I believe there is a happy middle Paizo should create books when there is a need to rather than committing to 2-4 books a year.
There seems to be a consensus that an epic level play book and a Psionics book great. The monster books are popular good. Forcing out books that change the core rules can easily break the game as it did in 2e and 3.5.
Play testing is critical keeping the base rules relevant. Every new feat, PRC, and class needs to be compared to the whole game.
Paizo should find topics that have not been explored yet if there are any.
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I haven't studied or used my 3.5 library extensively enough to know what I'd really like to see. I'm definitely interested in psionics and would be interested in your take on epic rules.
What I am concerned about to a great degree, however, is power creep. Many people ditched anything non-core in 3.5 because of all the unforeseen problems that occurred after they allowed certain books only to have it backfire on them. Yes, as a DM, you can Rule Zero anything you want - but I would want to know the material being released wouldn't cross those lines so severely, so that I could pick up a source book with some comfort knowing that the new options had been put through the power filter.
Interesting options, great. Power tests, not so good. Outlandish demonstrations of design room psychoses, bad. :) Unless maybe you have a section where you think certain new options would have to be considered carefully.
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The real question comes in if you feel that PFRPG is only an add on to 3.5 or if you feel that it is a whole new game. If you feel the former, then I can certainly see why you'd feel that you do not want any more crunch. I feel that PFRPG is a whole new game based on 3.5 (just like how 3.5 was a whole new game based on 3.0). A single core book is not going to satisify me.
And I know that I am not the only one out there that feels that way.
New game or add-on does not matter, a constant stream of expansion books will damage the system and make subsequent products of less value.
EDIT: Ok, I have gone through the whole thread and read everything you have typed very carefully. This really is the only thing that is of any genuine relivance to the topic at hand:
If you think that is the only thing of genuince relevance to the topic at hand then you have not read what I wrote very carefully at all.
Everything else you have stated is merely an argument for your position. So you are not interested in supplements. So simply not buy them if you are not interested in them. Then you have the perfect system.
Me, I want expansions. So this thread is targeted more towards me then to you.
As I purchase other Paizo products, and as I fear the production of these expansion books will affect the quality of those products, this thread is very much targeted towards me as well.
And yes, you have made it clear that all you want are expansion books. So simply buy a bunch of books from other publishers and add material endlessly and you will have the perfect system.
I'm not too big on subscribing to rules books myself, not saying you wouldn't find me purchasing them, but I'd probably be picking and choosing as they came out.
Bestiaries are well and good for new rules releases, would want to see more than one a year though. I don't want to see any premade encounters in those kinds of books though. Like we started seeing in the MM series from WotC, I won't by trash like that appearing in my bestiaries. lol If I want premade encounters I buy premade adventures. I buy bestiaries to expand my selection for monsters for my own encounters.
I wouldn't want to see too much on new races unless it was in the bestiaries. I wouldn't want anything official really.
Classes not so much either, I'd be looking more for some variants on the classes we have already. Though the idea of a Blackguard as a base race is much appealing.
Prestige classes, I don't know I think they'd have to be more for things like Unusual paths. But I really am sick of them. So I wouldn't want to see too many of them coming out.
1) I am eagerly looking for Epic rules. Please keep those near the top of the list. Something to carry a game past 20th level.
2) I would like an book of classic monsters capable of character classes. Rules inside that book for level zero versions of each monster/humanoid class. I want all the monsters to have the basic ecology included, and the rolls it will take with each skill to know facts about the thing eating the cleric.
3) I don't care for Psionics. If you can't do it with magic or mechanics, why are you trying to do it?
4) I don't mind Prestige Classes, but they vary from too narrow to world-breaking. They need to be vigorously tested, along with any new feats and spells.
5) I liked the 2nd / 3e X-scape / Adventures books, rules tailored to an environment. You can work classes into these as needed, but the basic fighter/mage/thief/cleric mechanic carries a lot of weight. A good set of Oriental rules is overdue. Interest in middle eastern settings is up.
6) Rules on how to deal with crossbreeds in the core would be nice, or at least a set of options. Keeping the half elf and half orc in the PFRG implies a possibility of a character that is not human, but born of an elf and orc union.
A True Planar Adventuring Handbook.
Environments can be in an Adventurer's Survival Guide.
Something along the lines of 4e's Adventurer's Vault is nice.
Game Master specific books. Like DMG II. Anything with new ideas & advice to putting adventures & campaigns together.
My dream? Bring back Spelljammer in some form, lol.
I like the Adventurer's Survival Guide. I could think of so much that could make it into that kind of book, from expansions on environs (floral, hazards (magical and mundane)) to Survival tactics for PCs, feats, skill use expansion.
A Planar and A Planetary Book would be cool (though the planetary would be more for the Golarion setting, the blurbs in the lastest adventure path have sparked my brain in that regards).
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I'm surprised no-one in this thread has mentioned a Pathfinder Basic book?
I bought the Beta for nephews and niece for Christmas. I don't think it was really the best fit for them, it's way too much information for a beginner to absorb, unless you have someone introduce you to the game and actually play a few sessions together (which I can't, because I was visiting from interstate). And the final Pathfinder RPG is going to be almost half as many additional pages!
Pathfinder RPG is great for existing players, but not so much for young or new players to the game.
I'd propose a cut-down version of the final Pathfinder RPG in soft-cover format, much like the Beta, but a much reduced page count.
Cover all the core races and classes up to level 3. Simply delete all feats, spells, class abilities etc beyond level 3. Keep the amazing layout, add a selection of common low-CR monsters from the upcoming Bestiary (goblins, orcs, skeletons, zombies etc), and some newbie-friendly descriptions and examples, and it's ready to go!
This is enough to get any player into the game, ready to play the first chapter of any Adventure Path, or play nine Pathfinder Society scenarios at their nearest gameday or convention, before graduating to the Pathfinder RPG hardcover.
Psionics, Epic, Planar, Oriental etc are all great suggestions for future sourcebooks, but let's not forget to encourage new-comers into this fantastic hobby of ours! :-)
agree with the need for an introductory book for new gamers :)
would like to see...
culture/region books
cultural variants, including terrain based, for races and classes
make all prestige classes culture specific only and include
racial books
core racial variants for classes
core racial sub-cultures
specific effects/limits for crossbreeds of the race
DM regional overview books
so they know what's going on in general,
before obtaining all modules like current jigsaw puzzle
core class books
class specific details like optional styles, feats, talents, etc
including a couple basic builds with feat/weapon/domain/school combos
maybe core class replacements
additional core classes
core combat book
full breakdown of how feat and skill combos work
expansion of actions
FAQs and clarifications that have arisen in forums
bonus types, thier limits, what stacks, what doesn't
special manouvres and such
multiclass handbook
benefits, pitfalls, common mistakes and misunderstandings
could be just an additional section in core rules
that would do me for a while, no rush, next week would be fine rotfl :D
And yes, you have made it clear that all you want are expansion books. So simply buy a bunch of books from other publishers and add material endlessly and you will have the perfect system.
But that is not what I want. I do not want "an endless stream" of crap. I want well thought out, quality, innovative expansions that genuinely add something to the game and give it a richness that the basic book does not have. And I want it from my favorite company that has a reputation of quality, high production value, well thought out, innovative material.
In short, I want it from Paizo. Expansions to those expansions (like new spells, additional feats, variations on that class, etc) are fine from other companies, but the basic alternate system I want from Paizo.
On a personal note Sam, I am going to ask you to tone it down. I consider telling me to buy stuff from another company instead of me suggesting that I would like products from a company that is obviously interested in providing those products (since they are asking for suggestions) to be highly rude. Please tone it down. Let's not escalate this.
I'm surprised no-one in this thread has mentioned a Pathfinder Basic book?
Yes. A basic book would be very, very nice. While Pathfinder is shaping up to look like a good game, a 600-page rulebook is enough to put off a lot of would-be players.
I am both interested in seeing expansions for the PF core system and wary of the intense rules-bloat that happened to 3.5. Here are some things I would like to see.
A book introducing a working psionics system
Something similar to Unearthed Arana, because I am *very* interested in rules variants.
I also like the suggestion of a well-done meta-gaming book for various areas
I am also interested in new Golarion-flavoured core classes and feats (especially Mwangi/Tian Xia and Keleshite) as well as some tightly-themed and fluff-heavy PrCs, but I think these should be introduced very carefully and sparingly.
Although I cannot subscripe to anything due to customs and shipping costs to the EU vs. my student pocket money equalling what I call holiday orders, I would like to urge Paizo to stick to the formula that the story should mostly dictate the rules you produce. Please do NOT go down the "mechanics for mechanics' sake" route.
And I heartily support the call for introductory PF rules.
Makamu
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What I'd like to see:
-More terrain books like Frostburn, expanding into swamps, mountains, even just forests.
-Arms and Equipment Guide
-I'd like to see something like the "Complete" series come out as I liked more options with feats, magic items and especially base classes. The idea of lumping them into divine, martial, arcane, etc. categories works better than the hodgepodge WoTC published.
-PrCs are okay in small doses.
-More monsters please!
What I don't want:
-Psionics! I just don't have any interest and I'd hate to see them creep into the Adventure Paths.
-Epic rules never caught my interest.
-Anything resembling the ToB.
In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Discuss.
I cant subscribe as is, so thats not an issue for me.
I would like a generic oriental, middle-eastern and other cultures based ideas (middle africa, vikings, india, native americans)
I also think that epic and psionic rules are a, though controversial, interesting add to the series.
My favourite would an cityscape/{urban/mystery campaign} book, with city building rules and district tips etc.
I don't want many new core classes, 1-3 max in each cultural supplement.
Races, likewise with realitvely low frequency, and high thematic value.
i.e. really asian mythological races in asian book.
I've never been mad about prestige classes, should be kept ridiculously specific or frankly in the most part should be either generic class melds for PFRPG, or world specific niches for Pathfinder Chronicles.
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But that is not what I want. I do not want "an endless stream" of crap. I want well thought out, quality, innovative expansions that genuinely add something to the game and give it a richness that the basic book does not have. And I want it from my favorite company that has a reputation of quality, high production value, well thought out, innovative material.
I would like that too.
So far, Paizo has established a reputation for producing setting books and adventures of that quality, and not rule books. As others have noted, I would prefer they stick with their proven track record rather than jump into what is a quantifiably different field. Further, I would prefer they avoid a field that has proven dangerous to the two biggest companies in the industry.On a personal note Sam, I am going to ask you to tone it down. I consider telling me to buy stuff from another company instead of me suggesting that I would like products from a company that is obviously interested in providing those products (since they are asking for suggestions) to be highly rude. Please tone it down. Let's not escalate this.
On a personal note, I consider telling me that a thread is not relevant to me to be overwhelmingly rude, particularly when combined with a poor understanding and presentation of my core beliefs about a topic. If you do not like where your poor behavior is taking things then act to correct yourself, as I will ignore your complaints at having your bad attitude thrown back at you.
Director of Brand Strategy
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In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Discuss.
I'm sorry if I'm retreading on already-discussed territory with this, but rather than read through 215 messages, I'll just respond to the original query from Erik.
As I've never played in an epic or psionics campaign, I'm ambivalent to them, but would love to see them at some point, if only to inspire me to play these types of games.
I'd also love to see an oriental themed book which could easily be run with the existing material. I always felt that OA needed to be run exclusively, which I'd rather not do, at least until we get more detail on Tian Xia.
The "Complete" series by WotC is one of the ones I use most often, so a line like this would be awesome. But there's no need to make so many. 1 for spellcasters, 1 for martial, 1 for divine and 1 for skill-monkeys and we're set. I'd like them to contain new base classes, maybe a 1 new race, and just a smattering of PrCs. Too many of the latter is a bad thing, as it becomes really difficult to anticipate balance issues that could arise from taking different combinations. Spells, feats and traits would also be nice to add here.
Speaking of traits, a book of traits with tons of them for all the different trait types. At the moment, we only have the core 40 and then the racial ones from Elves of Golarion, but having a book full of setting-neutral faith, magic, social, racial, and martial traits would be awesome. Then regional or setting specific ones could be released in the Chronicles.
I remember you mentioning in the chat one time beginners guides to specific classes and I think this is an awesome idea. A small 32 page paperback on Paladins with less rules and more strategy, advice or inspiration (like PC Pearls) would be cool. New equipment, feats, spells and possibly a few PrCs that are paladin specific would also be nice. If handled correctly, these could even replace the "complete" series. (I don't know how closely you want to tie these books to Golarion, but I reaaaaally want a PrC to allow paladins of Irori to multiclass freely with monk and let their levels stack for smite, unarmed damage, speed, etc.)
I also remember a "Savage Species" book being thrown around and that would be an awesome addition in place of one of the annual bestiaries. I support this wholeheartedly. It might also be a nice place to put in new races.
And on that note, I am fully in support of new races. As classic as the core seven are, it's also cool to play non-standard races, especially ones that are directly tied to a specific campaign. I'm playing a Rakasta in Savage Tide now and try to play strange races every chance I get in other campaigns. The winged people in Cheliax, the gillmen, etc. are all great possibilities within Golarion. And adding a race of cat-people in Sarusan or Arcadia would be cool too. So "yes to new races, especially cat people."
I would like you to do class books ala Sword and Fist or the Complete Fighter's Handbook from 2e. But, I don't want a buttload of feats and prestige classes. I want design information. I want variant fighter options and abilities (not new sucky base classes). I want thoughts on how to design good classes that are like the fighter. I want to know how the fighter works best in the game, how to play the fighter most effectively, and what type of player likes fighters the best. I want fighters that are tailored to the player races and some of the applicable monsters. I want a mini-campaign in the last chapter that gives me a garrison for my all-fighter campaign set in Absalom with a handful of adventure seeds, and a few NPCs (friendly and not-so-friendly). I want to know if an all-fighter campaign is even possible. And if you absolutely must, I will accept a small small small handful of feats and prestige classes - but no filler. I only want stuff that is so awesome, I need my Paizo Fighter Handbook. As a litmus test, if the feat is "you get +2 on two skills" it is filler and should be cut.Then I want the above for rogues, wizards, druids, etc. I want a single definitive book for each class and I want it to be made of pure 100% awesome.
Think: the Thieves Handbook or Fighters Handbook from 2e, each of which set the bar for what a class book should be (and which, sadly, none of the...
This, oh this, so very much.
I have not read the entire thread, but will keep doing so now.
Sebastian's statement resounded with me so strongly it needed to be quoted and repeated.
I understood one of the purposes behind Pathfinder RPG to be bringing the core classes up to speed with the many additional classes introduced in the Complete series. I wouldn't want books that just repeated or revised this information, or introduced loads more prestige classes and feats.
As others have noted, I would prefer they stick with their proven track record rather than jump into what is a quantifiably different field.
So you are advocating that Paizo remain stagnant instead of continue to grow their business? To quote Scott Adams, "There are two kinds of businesses, growing and dying."
On a personal note, I consider telling me that a thread is not relevant to me to be overwhelmingly rude, particularly when combined with a poor understanding and presentation of my core beliefs about a topic. If you do not like where your poor behavior is taking things then act to correct yourself, as I will ignore your complaints at having your bad attitude thrown back at you.
1) If you're going to assuse me of something, have the facts on your side. I said that this thread applies "more" to me then to you. I did not say that it did "not" apply to you.
2) I understand your position just fine. Your position is one of fear. You are afraid that Pathfinder will fail due to the weight of the system. You desire a system that will be around forever. You do not want to see Pathfinder 2E, ever. You have seen how your home game has grown unmanageable with an enless stream of supplements and do not want that again. You are afraid that Paizo will put out an endless stream of supplements and Pathfinder will be just as unmanageable. In short, you do want a game that you can play for years to come.
Well, the problem is is that if Paizo put out only the core book and only the core book, the game will be dead in a year, tops. Following your advise gives an image of Paizo not investing long term in the game. They are not building any anticipation for new and innovative ways of using the game. They are not trying to grow the market to appeal to those not interested in anything but their niche. Not putting out supplements is dooming Paizo. Paizo is smart to limit their output to a manageable level for both players and designers. Limitting their output will help the game achieve its maximum life, instead of dying an early death.
One thing I would really like to see either in supplimental material for PF RPG or as part of the Gloranian material is an emulation of the Relics from Complete Divine. I don't have the book in front of me but one of the items was a Tome of Bacoob which if you were a wizard with the True Believer feat could try to find a particular spell with a spell craft check once a day. Such an item could be written into an AP as a sub plot and add a lot of flavor for the player of a wizard.
Doug
Ok, so after reading the thread as promised here are my answers and comments.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
I don't think a subscription line is a good fit for these products. Campaign materials seem well suited for subscriptions, but additional/expanded rules do not.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
Bestiaries sound like a great idea. Count me in.
Epic level rules, I supppose. To be honest I don't use a lot of other expanded rules. For greater detail in what I would like to see please refer to my above post where I fawn over what Sebastian wrote.
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
A Savage Species type book would be a welcome addition. I think new classes are more appropriately introduced (for my purposes anyway) in campaign materials. Maybe a book that collected races, classes, and prestige classes that were previously introduced in Pathfinder adventure paths or Companion materials?
I don't want more just to have more (races, classes, prestige classes, spells, feats). I want them to have purpose, tied to an adventure path and campaign setting, which seems beyond the scope of this proposed product line.
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am
Not tired exactly. I don't feel like I need another book jammed full of new ones though.
For a bit of explantion about my responses, my purchasing habits for 3rd edition products tended towards campaign and class expansion type materials. I avoided Complete Psionic, Magic of Incarnum, Book of 9 Swords, Weapons of Legacy, and all the Races of books. It's not that I think these books shouldn't have been made, they just didn't appeal to me and my group. Hopefully that explains my reluctance at seeing these kinds of books added to a subscription line. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you'll sell plenty of them. They just don't seem like they will universally appeal to a broad enough group to justify a subscription line.
I'm surprised no-one in this thread has mentioned a Pathfinder Basic book?Yes. A basic book would be very, very nice. While Pathfinder is shaping up to look like a good game, a 600-page rulebook is enough to put off a lot of would-be players.
I'd get that! With dwarf and elf as classes :)!
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Here is my 2GP on the matter on books I'd like to see in the future of the Pathfinder RPG:
- Additional Bestiary's - once every 18 months!
- A re-tweaked and fully functional Epic Level Guidebook - for those of us who just have to keep going :P
- A redo of the ol' Arms & Equipment from back in the day! :D
- A class specific guide book to enhance each of the core classes - though not as much fluff and prestige classes as the complete series of 3.5 (this could almost be similar to the pathfinder companions in size and content!)
- One book a year along the lines of Tome of Magic, Heroes of Horror, etc!
Whichever way it goes, I know it'll be good!
Keep those dice rolling all!
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So you are advocating that Paizo remain stagnant instead of continue to grow their business? To quote Scott Adams, "There are two kinds of businesses, growing and dying."
To quote Lisa Stevens, "I am happy with the size Paizo is right now."
To quote me, "Every edition of D&D has been wrecked by endless expansion books."
In fact there are three kinds of businesses: growing, dying, and suiciding by reckless expansion.2) I understand your position just fine. Your position is one of fear. You are afraid that Pathfinder will fail due to the weight of the system. You desire a system that will be around forever. You do not want to see Pathfinder 2E, ever. You have seen how your home game has grown unmanageable with an enless stream of supplements and do not want that again. You are afraid that Paizo will put out an endless stream of supplements and Pathfinder will be just as unmanageable. In short, you do want a game that you can play for years to come.As opposed to your position being one of fear. You are afraid that Pathfinder will fail due to lack of constant product stream. You desire a system that will expand forever. You want to see Pathfinder become the WotC hype for 4E, despite such never having been proven to be viable. In shory, you do want a game that you believe you can play for years to come.
Well, the problem is is that if Paizo put out only the core book and only the core book, the game will be dead in a year, tops. Following your advise gives an image of Paizo not investing long term in the game. They are not building any anticipation for new and innovative ways of using the game. They are not trying to grow the market to appeal to those not interested in anything but their niche. Not putting out supplements is dooming Paizo. Paizo is smart to limit their output to a manageable level for both players and designers. Limitting their output will help the game achieve its maximum life, instead of dying an early death.It will?
Really?
I seem to recall AD&D putting out just the core rule books and not dying within a year. In fact, they did remarkably well on just the core books, and only got into serious difficulty in the 2E era when they went with your plan of "anticipation" of flooding the market with endless variants.
Conversely Paizo is in fact growing the market by promoting the constant production and development of their Golarion products, a highly successful line that has managed to expand constantly since its inception without a dedicated rules expansion being published for it.
Yes, limiting their output will help the game achieve its maximum life; that includes limiting expansions to monster collections, and perhap, perhaps, converting the remaining OGL rules for epic level play and psionics, and maybe, maybe, some very long term planning for other class and race expansion material, and not committing to one or two books a year for such now, before they have quality material prepared, or at least far along in the pipeline of thorough development.
Stuff
All your're doing now is just inflaming. I was trying to reason with you. I was trying to explain my position. You have yet to do anything but attack me. I've had enough. Flagged.
But to explain my position, since you completely missed my point. I do not want an endless stream of crap like some companies puts out. I do not want Pathfinder to be like 4E. And I most definitely do not want adventures.
I want to find players for years to come. I want something I can get excited about. I like my homebrewed world. I can write setting to my hearts content. What I cannot do in sufficient quantity is create new classes, races, feats, rules to handle different types of environs, etc. That is why I want to pay Paizo to do so. I do not use prepublished adventures, ever. Not my style. While I can steal stuff from the Campaign Setting (and love reading it, thank you Paizo), ultimately it has little value to me since I am using my own setting. So I want expansions to the system. I want to make my game the best it can be, instead of just being a "fantasy heartbreaker."
90% of Paizo's current products are of little-to-no use to me right now. System would be much much more useful.
If you are going to do 4 hardcoever a year, this is what I would like to see;
1: Beastiary: And like the Classic Monsters Revisited, it should give each beastie as much information as possible. I want to see ecology, enviromental and magical variations and advancment rules for each.
2: Player's Guide: Everything the Player needs; new classes, new class options, regional feats, equipment spells and magic items. And yes I would like to see the core Prestige Classes as full classes, it would be a nice option to have and a good curveball to throw at some players.
3: DM's Guide: Everything a DM needs, but in a book the player's don't need. These books should revist some of the basic concepts of the game and explain and expand them. Like Raise Dead/Ressurection/Reincarnation; what does it do? what can go wrong? what can go right? There are many topics that could use an expanded look at; Cults, Dungeons and Tombs, Chymeric Animals etc.
4: Something completely different: Here is where we can explore Psionics, Shamans, Elemental Planes, Witches & Warlocks, Mechanics & Machines and every single concept that needs an entire book to be explained properly.
I would like to see variants to the exsisting base classes. For example swap out some of the Fighters abilities and create a Knight or change out some of the Rouges abilities to create a Ninja. This would be a simple way to keep the overall theme of the class but make it differant enough to call it something new. This would hopefully allow most prestige classes to be compatible with the "new class" since it was modeled off of one of the original classes. This was done in Unearthed Arcana but if I recall correctly the presentation of alternate classes in this book was very poor and they never recieved any support beyond that book. A couple other examples would be the Storm Druid and Sidhe Scholar from Dragon Magazine. I liked the layout of these two alternate classes and because they used an exsisting spell list they did not fall behind in spell options like the alternate paladins in Unearthed Arcana.
I would also like to see some new Base Classes but I think they should be widely variable like the core base classes. For example the Cleric is a catch all class for those following a higher power and can be made into a very specific character through the class options. For some interesting and (in my opinion) enjoyable catch all classes check out the Mariner, Noble, and Master classes from the Dragonlance Source books produced by MW Productions.
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All your're doing now is just inflaming. I was trying to reason with you. I was trying to explain my position. You have yet to do anything but attack me. I've had enough. Flagged.
But to explain my position, since you completely missed my point. I do not want an endless stream of crap like some companies puts out. I do not want Pathfinder to be like 4E. And I most definitely do not want adventures.
But I want it to fail because I do not want rules supplements?
Meanwhile you now admit you do not want adventures, which are the core of the current Paizo product line. You do not want the company to expand, you want it to change its entire focus.
You have explained your position and harassment of me perfectly.
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The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
I personally don't mind paying $35 for a hardcover book, but I do know people who can't afford to do that. How about a combination of hard and soft cover books. You do not have to do this for every book as some books will be used by a limited number of people (mostly just GMs or players who like to know everything), but books that are going to be used by everyone could be sold both ways so everyone who wants it can get a copy.
Before anyone points out that downloading the PDF would accomplish the same thing, having a bound book is more satisfying than a bunch of loose sheet in a ring-binder.
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One thing I would love to see is:
The Pathfinder’s Guide to NPCs
Expand on the base NPC classes, add more, especially more “encounterable” NPC classes. Expand on the “Background” and “Crafting” skills. Create a system of experience by which NPCs gain those 15 levels of commoner without killing monsters. Expand the information available on city/civilization structures, and the roles of the NPC classes in society. Give us some alternate “Barbaric” NPC classes to use for uncivilized peoples and monsters (besides Adept or Warrior.)
Then add in stuff on making NPCs memorable and unique. Pull from your collective storytelling and DMing experiences and give us some inspiration.
Meanwhile you now admit you do not want adventures, which are the core of the current Paizo product line. You do not want the company to expand, you want it to change its entire focus.
No. I am expressing an interest in a type of product. I am hoping that they produce that in conjuction with their existing prduct lines. I have absolutely interest in the product that make you happy and am glad that you like them. Paizo producing adventures makes no difference to me.
Stop your harrassment. Now! Next time you respond I am sending emails. I'm done reporting your posts.
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In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
From what I have seen, you fishing for, I see a Pathfinder Psionic and a Epic Pathfinder Book. I am very cool with that.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
Fantastic, we would love more Paizo with our meal.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
Sounds reasonable. Sign me up.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
I would pay you fifty. Screw 35 dollars. Anyone who tells you it must cost less wants a sub par book. I know you guys can't hit 35 bucks and make all that much. You don't have that kind of volume. I am willing to pay you for something you can be proud of. And if Paizo is proud of it, its the killer bomb. Some people would whine about that price, but what is their alternative anyway? You guys are a notch above D&D as I knew it. I therefore can come up with that much money.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
Oh boy, you asked? Something huge with Galorian history and lore all over it. Pure fluffy. Since the Dinos have been thrown around lately, I would love to have a fully realized immersion of Dinosaurs in the Galorian world (or any world for that matter). Lost World, Eberronesque Clawtooth pets, Dinotopia. Whatever you think is right for Galorian.
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Well, if backwards compatible is what you want, you already have "Rules Bloat" taken care. I will be honest with you Erik, because you have always spoke honestly with us (and then did it). Do not make the same swing (as WotC) beyond the core books if you can avoid it. Think about what it is that Paizo has done best, and then channel that into your books blazing a totally new trail. You guys are the bleeding edge now. You got their by "telling stories first" in a system that worked well for that. Now that we know that rules are not as important as some thought, Paizo has the unique position to shine even brighter. I would love to say Classes and Prestige Classes and races mattered, but they are just options "that may never see the light of day". What I love about Paizo is that you guys take an idea and then implement it. The most popular RPG company made ideas and then left them.
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
I guess so, though I am rather curious what a Pathfinder PrC would look like. Heheh.
Cheers,
Zuxius
I think that Robert Ranting's post (3rd post on page 4) is by far the best summary I have seen yet of what I'd like to see, and I agree with most of it whole-heartedly, so I'l just briefly touch upon where I agree most strongly and how my opinions vary when they do differ.
Form
I agree about the format and also very much agree that the annual bestiaries should include monsters from books released in the previous year. However, Bestiary # 1 should be first and foremost about covering the basic range of monsters, so if it takes a year or two to play catch up on creatures from the first couple of APs that's fine, as long as goblin dogs make the initial cut.
Subscription
I agree that rule books are not as well suited for a subscription as Paizo's other lines. That said, the extra PDF copy is great for reference and I would very much like to see an alternate way to get said PDFs rather than having to pay for everything twice. I'd be willing to pay a nominal fee (maybe $5 plus proof of purchase of the original), but paying 2/3 to 3/4 the cost of the printed product is way too much for something I already own.
Titles
Very much agree in general, specifically about items # 6, 1 & 2. However I think # 3, 4 ,& 5 could be done as a mostly fluff PFC product. # 7 could go either way I guess, I just don't have as much interest as in the first three.
Classes I like the idea of some variant builds and wouldn't mind a couple of new base classes for swashbucklers and warlocks but don't really want to see a lot of new classes.
Races I fully agree with Robert, would rather see little to no new races, and if there are going to be any they should have their own geographical niche.
Prestige Classes I don't hate PrCs as Robert does but I also don't need to see them in the PFRPG products. A small number of world-specific PrCs for Golarion in PF Chronicles products would be nice.
I answered earlier in the thread and forgot something - I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in the last few pages or even if it's possible.
I would also be interested in other genres - pathfinder space, pathfinder horror, pathfinder cyberpunk...etcetera. That's no doubt more about new markets than pleasing current customers, but nonetheless, I thought I'd mention it.
Something huge with Galorian history and lore all over it. Pure fluffy.
This was simply the most convenient example, but people keep asking for golarion specific things, which is not the point of this thread, thats for pathfinder chronicles, and I'm sure that your suggestions would be welcome, but Erik Mona is looking for idea's for the setting nuetral, Pathfinder RPG.
Sadly, this could very well disclude a planar book, as the great beyond is unique to golarion, so planescape inheritor, even a planar bestiary may be unlikely because of that. As could really cool prestige classes and options for the golarion dieties in a divine book.
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I understand your position just fine. Your position is one of fear. You are afraid that Pathfinder will fail due to the weight of the system.
Now, now, I don't think it's about fear so much as simply stating his desires as requested by Erik at the beginning of this thread. I myself came on and actually said I'd prefer more story based books than rules. And, I happen to be one with a sizeable library and don't feel I need loads of new feats, spells and prestige classes.
I think Paizo asked us what we wanted because, like in the past, they will use customer feedback and listen to shape some strategy to put out the best books. I think it goes without saying that a publishing company needs to put out new books, and that's great. To Paizo, I say: bring it on!
But it's important they collect opinions on their entire base to see where the interests lie. So far I'm reading a lot of good suggestions!
-DM Jeff
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Afterthought: In fact, some rules I wouldn't mind at all (and others suggested here) is new core classes. In fact, a combined "Unearthed Arcana/PHBII" Pathfinder book to supplement their hardcover in August would be quite a treat I suspect.
New classes are always cooler than prestige classes, to me anyway!
-DM Jeff
My two cents: don't write a steady stream of new rule books just because that's what Wizards of the Coast does. If you really have a great idea of a book, that's fantastic. But I hope it doesn't come down to: "We need to put out a new rule book in March. What should it be about?" Please -- have a good idea first and schedule a book second.
For what it's worth, my favourite 3.5 splatbooks were the Complete series, the Tome of Magic (except for the Truename magic bit, which could have used more playtesting), the Tome of Battle, the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium.
General feedback on PFRPG products, based on the rulebooks I’ve found most useful over the years
Psionics – but this needs to sit well with the campaign world. If you’re going to release a pure rules book, you might also want to consider a Pathfinder Chronicles book that details how it all fits in to the campaign. That way you’d have Pathfinder RPG: Psionics, which is a crunch-heavy product usable with any world, and Pathfinder Chronicles: Psionics Revisited/Reimagined which is all the fluff for psionics – like how it works in Vudra, the darklands etc. Now I’m not sure if that’s really commercially viable, but my buying is driven by a love of the Golarion setting, not by acquisition of rules.
Unearthed Arcana – most specifically: Action Points, Spontaneous divine casters, alternative class features, class variants, rituals, spelltouched feats, traits, flaws. This book gets used a lot in my games as it allows for good, balanced customisation of characters.
Spell Compendium – really useful to have new spells; it would be even more useful to have a complete alternative to the PHB spellset. What I mean by this is the ability to actually run all the spellcasting classes without ever using a PHB spell – this would make a lot of the game very ‘new’ again. I’d also look at taking on board some of the design decisions made by Monte Cook in Arcana Evolved – no min/level spells, use of spell templates or similar.
Magic Item Compendium – new items, particularly for low-level characters; also more alchemical stuff – it’s a really interesting part of fantasy rpgs.
Ongoing, I’d also like to see new core classes, additional class features for existing classes and mechanics for playing existing SRD races as PCs. Prestige classes are best when grounded into the gameworld – the Living Monolith PrC is made of awesome, and I’d pay good money for a “1 prestige class from every nation” book (Ulfen Linnorm hunter PrC anyone?)
A big book of “supporting cast” npcs would be useful beyond measure. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve genned up city guards, criminals, elven rangers, dwarf blacksmiths. By concentrating on generic stats for archetypes, across levels, settings & races I think you’d create a really indispensible product. So for example – a complete city watch, a complete thieves guild, a complete nobles court, a complete pirate ship, a village, a dwarven mine, a barbarian clanhold, a college of wizards, a caravan of travellers – put all of these in one book, no need to detail the setting, but having the stats would be tremendous.
What I’m not interested in are increasing numbers of cap systems above and beyond Psionics – so Tome of Magic, Magic of Incarnum and book of Nine Swords aren’t so useful as they then require ‘somewhere to live’ in the gameworld.
Environment-based booked are made of meh, as they are basically useless unless the campaign is going to feature that type of terrain exclusively. A better bet would be to cover more than one environment type in a single book.
Above all of this, the overriding concern is game balance; every new feature (particularly core classes) really needs to be balanced against the baseline PFRPG classes. One of the problems I had with some of the WotC material is how it made certain classes nigh-on redundant (scout, I’m looking at you), the other issue was the complete irrelevance of some new core classes. In general, the ones that have worked for me are those that were clear and distinct from existing classes, while maintaining a good ‘trope of their own.
1: Beastiary: And like the Classic Monsters Revisited, it should give each beastie as much information as possible. I want to see ecology, enviromental and magical variations and advancement rules for each.
I agree. I would like to see one monster book per year and be sure to not skimp on the details. I *like* to know the ecology and habits of creatures, *as well as* common or suggested combat tactics, as well as monster knowledge check DC's and associated information.
2: Player's Guide: Everything the Player needs; new classes, new class options, regional feats, equipment spells and magic items. And yes I would like to see the core Prestige Classes as full classes, it would be a nice option to have and a good curveball to throw at some players.
I'd also like to see these yearly player's update guides include optional alternate rules such as converting existing classes (like paladin) to Prestige Classes etc. These player's guides could also include new equipment and such.
3: DM's Guide: Everything a DM needs, but in a book the player's don't need. These books should revisit some of the basic concepts of the game and explain and expand them. Like Raise Dead/Resurrection/Reincarnation; what does it do? what can go wrong? what can go right? There are many topics that could use an expanded look at; Cults, Dungeons and Tombs, Chimeric Animals etc.
Completely agree. I would also like to see the years accumulated FAQs gathered into these books.
4: Something completely different: Here is where we can explore Psionics, Shamans, Elemental Planes, Witches & Warlocks, Mechanics & Machines and every single concept that needs an entire book to be explained properly.
Yes, it would be neat to have a yearly wildcard book, one year it focuses on the planes, the next year it is dedicated to horror style campaigns and associated rules, the next year it focuses on low fantasy / low magic grim and gritty rules, the next year it focuses instead on really high fantasy, high magic rules. I'd buy all of that in a heartbeat. Hell I'd even subscribe in advance if I knew that each quarter I could expect one new nice hardcover book.
For what it's worth, my favourite 3.5 splatbooks were the Complete series, the Tome of Magic (except for the Truename magic bit, which could have used more playtesting), the Tome of Battle, the Spell Compendium and the Magic Item Compendium.
Oh, and Unearthed Arcana. That was a great book -- even the parts I don't use (e.g. generic classes, armour as DR) are still great ideas.
My two cents: don't write a steady stream of new rule books just because that's what Wizards of the Coast does. If you really have a great idea of a book, that's fantastic. But I hope it doesn't come down to: "We need to put out a new rule book in March. What should it be about?" Please -- have a good idea first and schedule a book second.
Agreed, a very sensible idea, and it allows me to be very likely to keep up with most if not all of the books.
I’d also look at taking on board some of the design decisions made by Monte Cook in Arcana Evolved – no min/level spells, use of spell templates or similar.
In general I would hope that a lot of the ideas that Monte came up with could see their way into the final Pathfinder rules, or at least in new products officially released by Paizo. For that matter, I'd love to see Paizo and Wolfgang Baur form a more close relationship, one where Kobold Quarterly became an offical Paizo product, that focuses specifically on Pathfinder rules and settings etc. I don't expect that to happen, but it would be nice.
Magic Item Compendium – new items, particularly for low-level characters; also more alchemical stuff – it’s a really interesting part of fantasy rpgs.
Agreed, and also, I'll repeat, please keep the existing Magic Item Compendiums "Item Level" mechanics. Also, yes, alchemical items would be cool and could feed into low-magic, more realistic homebrew worlds.
Ongoing, I’d also like to see new core classes, additional class features for existing classes and mechanics for playing existing SRD races as PCs.
I agree, just so long as PUH-LEEEEEZE figure out some way to adequately play-test or let the community preview potential new Prestige Classes so that crazy broken combinations are caught before being released. If its one thing I do *NOT* want to see is power creep take over Pathfinder just as it did with 3.5.
A big book of “supporting cast” npcs would be useful beyond measure. I’ve lost track of the...
I've already called for this in other threads and couldn't agree more. Statblock after statblock for street thugs, beggars, soldiers, bartenders, evil cultists, bandits/brigands, bands of thieves, gangs, crowds/mobs, etc etc.
My two cents: don't write a steady stream of new rule books just because that's what Wizards of the Coast does. If you really have a great idea of a book, that's fantastic. But I hope it doesn't come down to: "We need to put out a new rule book in March. What should it be about?" Please -- have a good idea first and schedule a book second.
We have to remember that Paizo is a business first and foremost, and needs to have a predictable and reliable income. If they do not then they will certainly not be able to continue to produce quality materials. With that said I think its in their best interests to have predictable product release schedules, and then to develop products towards those dates. Pre-release a plan of what products will be released that year (or even put it up for a vote or something) and then commit to those products and release the best quality product possible by that date. I do not fault a company in the least for needing to release regular material, its how they survive after all.
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I just wanted to add that I did enjoy the Complete series, but not because of the base classes. I actually disliked that part very much. However, each book was a supliment of new feats, spells, and items, focused on the classes that the title suggest. I particularly liked them because they also included sections about the character, recommended feats, and general ideas about different aspects of a certain type of character (Complete Mage comes to mind for this).
That's something i'd like. An in depth view of the classes, a discussion of different archetypes and possibilities to achieve certain character goals.
I'd also like to see something like what 2E did, and have a section in a GM manual where it shows how to (basically) make your own classes. Give the GMs of the world the tools to customize their world.
I like fluff, but it should be balanced with new things like feats, spells, and items. I could do without PrC's, but sparingly done wouldn't be a bad thing.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
Perfect
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
i always perfer a hard copy, i'll buy a hard copy at $40 if it's only 3 times a year.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
Race spacific, Class spacific. the elven hand book is still one of the best books ever, it's up there with the theif hand book, and ninja's. read the special rules for martial arts in the ninja's, brillant!
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
both can be good, i like more races with non, or little of the ecl stuff. classes get so silly so quick. the point of the base classes are they cover everything, and they are just modified to fit everything they need. i think templates are the way to go, i have a great ninja template. the templates would work like kits, or class options.
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
probly not, though i think they become harder to put in with the new system. none of the ones i've seen are worth taking.
We have to remember that Paizo is a business first and foremost, and needs to have a predictable and reliable income.
Yes, and it was my understanding that their predictable and reliable income was going to come from selling Adventure Paths. I would be disappointed if Adventure Paths took a back seat (I already think they have a little bit, in terms of adventures getting shorter) to churning out new rule books before the ink on the old ones is even dry.
I would be disappointed if Adventure Paths took a back seat (I already think they have a little bit, in terms of adventures getting shorter) to churning out new rule books before the ink on the old ones is even dry.
Ultimately Paizo will have to examine what products appear to be the most successful from a business perspective, and then it would be irresponsible (and unwise) of them not to dedicate more attention towards those specific products. Personally I have no concerns with the possibility of books being released TOO frequently because I (like us all) have the right not to purchase anything that we feel is either shoddily designed, unnecessary for our campaigns, or just don't appeal to us for whatever reason. Everyone always has the right not to buy something.
Ultimately Paizo will have to examine what products appear to be the most successful from a business perspective, and then it would be irresponsible (and unwise) of them not to dedicate more attention towards those specific products.
Absolutely. If selling rule books and/or "fluff" books like "Elves of Golarion" and "Dragons of Golarion" is giving them a better return on investment than selling adventure paths, it'd be crazy for them not to go in that direction. I just had the impression that the adventure paths were still the #1 product, though.