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What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
For that much per pop, I would be reluctant to subscribe for more than 2 books per year, in addition to all the subscriptions listed above.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
A book that explores the attributes and relationships between the planes & their outsiders; conjuration spells & items associated with those planes & outsiders; and spells, items and rules for spellcasters and champions that focus on specific planar/outsider types; and guidelines for planar travel adventures, as well as PC 'ascendance' to outsider status.
Okay, that was a lot. Sorry.
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Very favorable, but new base classes should be very compelling and have a distinct character archetype in a heroic fantasy storyline.
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Hmm. I think they got overdone by WOTC. I would prefer to see fewer, better PrCs rather than hundreds to sift through.
I would like a book about the fey,seperate them seelie/unseelie and make tham interesting.
I think that fey are the most underused monster type in dnd ,pathfinder should corect that.
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
I wouldn't recommend doing this, but I would probably buy them. I think you would have to gauge the audience receptivity to a proposed new system before pushing out the book. New options means a lot of relearning, a lot less backwards compatibility. If it's *much* better, that makes it worthwhile. If it's merely better, it's worthwhile for the newbie to the system only I'd say.
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?
I dont really understand either of your examples. However if you did epic rules and psionic rules without pretty drastic changes to them I would not be interested. I am not interested in the current Epic rules (I find play above about 16th level tiresome), I dont like the flavor of the current psionic rules. If they were redesigned I would hop on board these two trains that at the moment I am happy to ignore.
Re psionics -I liked the flavor & idea in 1st edition of playing a fighter with psionics (mechanics were poor though), and I like the way Monte Cooks Runechild (I think that was what it was) got extra powers - in exchange for some cost but you were still a base class.
Re Epic- I got no idea how this would work.
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Epic books would be bought up by some of my playgroup. They are old school D&Ders... who I think would be attached to an EPIC system.
One player in particular here gets crestfellen when I tell him that RotRL goes to about 15th level and after than we probablu will start another AP. He asks with the same character... I say no. :)
A box set like the silver immortals would be very good and most certainly would have appeal to old school players and DM... the younglings may not understand... but given 2-3 product release a year this will give paizo time to showcase their products... bring a new generation of younglings into mature ducks like me. :)
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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*Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
Depends. Are they going to be OGL?
All of our rules content will be 100% open. To do otherwise is, in my opinion, a betrayal of the spirit of the Open Gaming Movement.
--Erik
The problem with this is that you risk alienating the people who already like psionics in order to make it appeal to people who don't already like it.The question is which group is larger? I wonder.
I will admit, I like the XPH. However, I am willing to give a system that is well thought out and compatiable to the existing PF RPG, AND keeps the flavor of what psionics is. Do that and I will buy it in a heartbeat. Also, please do the same with the Epic Level issue. I will be a very happy camper then.
Edit - I have no problem with a new or different way of doing Psionics. I started with AD & D (1 st edition) psionics and have experienced several versions since then. ~shrugs~ I am in the mood to see what you all can do with psionics. My thought? Go for it!
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The books I would be the most excited for are books like the Complete and Compendium series from 3e, or like the Oriental Adventures and Arabian Adventures, and expansions or variants of core rules like in Unearthed Arcana. I like a well-designed prestige class, because they allow characters to specialize their characters and make them more distinct. I like new base classes, but only when they fill a new niche. I prefer really specialized roles to fall to prestige classes, where I think they truly belong.
As for my endorsement of Oriental/Arabian Adventures type rulebooks, I don't think they need to be tied in to the world of Golarion. Much of the D&D game, including Pathfinder, is very tied to an at least quasi-European world. Asian, Arabian, African, and American (4 As!) expansions require more content than the Pathfinder Companions can really provide in their limited space, and can really focus on rules variants specific to these kind of broad thematic settings.
I'm going to agree with someone else's comment about specializing the books. I like having one source to reference for a given topic, rather than lugging around a library just to keep track of everything.
I also think Paizo should take a cue from WotC in 4e and make some kind of compilation of their OGL material online. I know it would be difficult, and may not be doable, but at least giving the green light to a fan compilation of all the PfRPG OGL material would be a godsend.
EDIT - I also really, really, really want a Savage Species type book for PfRPG. I want to play one of those cool newfangled skum or a slimy seugathi!
In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
Excellent. I think that rate would be about right...
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
I'm a Pathfinder Charter Supersubscriber. I'd have to buy in to keep my snazzy title (or better yet become a "Pathfinder Charter Supersubscriber Patron of All Things Paizonian" or some such...
;^)
Seriously, the price would work if my Paizo discounts are still in place and I'm getting a free PDF. Having electronic media is absolutely necessary.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
First up--collecting past material scattered across various books into compendiums. I know some folks aren't big on reusing old material, but I prefer collecting things into a single location rather than having to dig through multiple books (many not directly related to what I need).
One bestiary per year, to include a collection of the monsters released in previous Golarion material (genericized as needed), plus OGC monsters of note from the past, plus new monsters.
One other major compendium (spells, feats, items, etc.) that follows the Golarion + OGC + new model.
I agree with Sebastian on the 2e-style character books, both for classes and races. Again follow the Golarion + OGC + new model but focus on building options around the existing core rules. Only introduce new rules (new class, new race, new magic subsystem) when it is truly different and needed. I too favor a focus on how I can design my own games/mechanics.
Epic? Meh...But a system that captures the Gold box Immortal rules could be cool. It meshes with your idea of starting back at "level 1" but making it a whole new ballgame.
The alternate culture books seem more appropriate in other subscription lines.
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
As above. I'd really rather see races covered as in Elves of Golarion (and this in a different subscription) except for the "core" that non-Golarion folks would need. For new classes, I favor alternate/variant class abilities. Samurai? Knight? Swasbuckler? All should just be variants of core classes. I'd rather see prestige classes in a compendium, if we've got to have more. I generally take existing material and mash it together to form whatever my players need rather than bothering too much with PrCs unless the PrC is truly tied to the campaign. As with the races, I guess I'd rather them be in the Companion/Chronicles for this reason.
Discuss.
Done did!
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Alrighty.....Here goes.
***I love Unearthed Arcana. I would love to see something similar for Pathfinder RPG, with Paragon classes, Generic classes, alternate classes and simple variants (more of the simple variants than UA has, please!)
***I loved the 3.0 Arms and Equipment guide. New basic equipment is always welcome.
***More base classes. I love base classes.
***If you do Prestige Classes (which I don't really care about much) please give a variant for converting it to a base class. Maybe do this with additional base classes being able to convert to PRCs also.
***Bestiaries are always welcome but too many and I stop buying. 1 a year is about max for me.
***Green Ronin's Denizens of Freeport is a phenomenal book of NPCs with History, backround, stats, and some plot hooks for each one and I have found it to be a godsend as a DM. Something similar would be awesome.
That's all I got. Hope it helps, Paizo.
The books I would like to see:
Bestiaries are fine. Good ones, that is. Some of the MMs were awesome, while a couple were just some much dead tree waste.
Psionics: I tend to avoid using them, but still a sucker to buy them. I keep looking for a rules set that works. Different is fine, as I see it as an add-on system & doesn't need to be completely BC to me.
Epic rules that work would be VERY nice.
Back to psionics, I always thought they could use a modified sorcerer for a psion anyway. Was thinking of a kalashtar only bloodline for my old Eberron campaign.
I like prestige classes. That being said, I HATE a thousand of them that do the exact same thing. I am in favor of more alternate builds for base classes where appropriate, akin to 2e kits. Some situations call for PrCs, while others should be an alternate build or even a new base class.
Flavor books for Arabian style settings, oriental adventures, and the like are good ideas too.
Vehicle rules for those of us that like airships & fantasy type vehicles.
I understand that if all of my suggestions came out, that it would still take a few years for all of them to come into play.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I also think Paizo should take a cue from WotC in 4e and make some kind of compilation of their OGL material online. I know it would be difficult, and may not be doable, but at least giving the green light to a fan compilation of all the PfRPG OGL material would be a godsend.
I have already encouraged the keepers of The Grand OGL Wiki to include as much of Paizo's Open Content as they can.
They do not need my permission to do this, btw. And it's sort of a misnomer to call it "Paizo's" Open Content.
All Open Content belongs to the community.
It'd be great to have an online rules compendium, but at the moment this is far outside our current budget and staffing capabilities. Here's hoping the fans can take care of it for everyone.
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The problem with this is that you risk alienating the people who already like psionics in order to make it appeal to people who don't already like it.The question is which group is larger? I wonder.
I'm sure there are well more non-psionics people than psionics lovers, for many reasons: disliked it in earlier editions, disliked it in XPH, dislike the flavor, just don't use rules supplements, etc.
The questions really is, how many of those people could you convert by producing a different psionics system, and is that number bigger than the larger percentage of the small category (I.e. Current psionics fans who would buy a PF-used XPH). I'm obviously biased, but I would be somewhat surprised if the former were bigger.
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*Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
Depends. Are they going to be OGL?
All of our rules content will be 100% open. To do otherwise is, in my opinion, a betrayal of the spirit of the Open Gaming Movement.
--Erik
And this is why I will still love you guys even if you screw up my beloved psionics. ;-)
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First off, more rules expansion/support is a great thing. The number one reason I have been spending money on Pathfinder is that the company is at least listening to their target audience, rather than creating a product we don't want and telling us to like it. Continue to put out what the players want to buy, it's that simple.
Also, a marketing strategy like the Beta rules is genius. Put out softcover copies of splatbooks that are easily purchased (say 25$). Then, put out the major rules books that are going to be purchased by nearly everyone as hardcover. Or beta them softcover and then do them hardcover again. A good product sells itself, but a lower price point increases demand and access.
As a GM, I love new mechanics material. Give us fixed classes and races. Give us new prestige classes and optional rules. Give us feats and spells. That's what the players want. Just do it well. Quality over quantity. I never bought a single Mongoose Quint book...
No need for setting books in my opinion. Most game masters already have their favorite 3.5 setting and 10,000 books for it. They are not likely going to reinvest in a new one, unless it is done so profoundly well (and interesting) that we have no choice. That would be a great player driven idea too.
Six books a year is not too much strain on folks, especially if some are paperbacks and lower in cost than major hardcovers. I've personally bought well over a thousand dollars in gaming books over the years and never could justify paying 50$ for a book. Keep that in mind. I might buy 3 books for 35$ each, but a 50$ book has to be simply amazing.
Anyway, you guys do great work and all of my players love the Pathfinder game. Just keep doing what you are doing.
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?
It wouldn't be an automatic deal-breaker for me if I find myself preferring the new system you create.
For epic, the old rules mean less to me as, they were hard for me to use and I never really got attached to them.
However, for the psionic rules, I do have some fondness for the point system; I would prefer it if additional it additional psionic rules were compatible with the Expanded Psionic Handbook and later supplements using that system, the same way I would like spellcasters to still be able to use the various 3.5 spells. That doesn't mean that I would hate it if you modified the system. I would think that I would be happier if you solved repaired the system without completely scrapping it.
It doesn't mean I won't buy it, but I think that I would be more likely to purchase and enjoy it if it worked with the existing psionics in someway.
But if you make super awesome (as in not just a little bit better than the point-based psionics, but much better than that system), to me at least, new psionics rules, that might make me happiest. It is only a question to me if you can make those super awesome rules, which I'm, honestly, not sure if you are able to do.
6 books on top of the stuff I already get would be a strain for me.
i like the idea of 2 maybe 3.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I've just created a new thread to discuss the specifics of a possible Pathfinder psionics book.
Kindly shift discussion of that topic to this new thread.
I've likewise created a thread for the Epic Level discussion. Please shift discussion of the specifics of Epic Level issues to that thread.
I want to keep this one focused on the questions in my original post.
Thanks.
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
I've never really been interested in epic level play so an Epic level book wouldn't do anything for me.
Now psionics is another story. I'm not attached to the point system but I am attached to the flavor of psionics, so if you came up with a cool system I wouldn't care if it was different than the 3.5 one. Truth be told if Pathfinder had a psionics system it would do a lot to attract me to the brand in general. I generally like what I've seen so far but when I heard there would be no psionics support it turned me off. Now that there might be, things are starting to look sexy again :)whoops, one second too late. Off to the new thread!
I'd like to throw another side question in here...
If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?
I would actually prefer you to go your own direction on the Epic and Psionic books, as I have enjoyed the tweaks and changes you guys have made to the core rules so far. Although I enjoyed the 3rd edition epic and psionic rules, I always felt that they could have been better and I would love to see a paizonian spin on those titles. Additionally I think a paizonian book that delved into the heart of truly murderous dungeons would be fun as well. Something full of traps and other nasty dangers for those of us who like to homebrew lairs, and dungeons, and such.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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I dig 3-4 hardback books a year, and I stongly prefer the 'something for everyone' approach in each such book. The best 3.5 books of the last couple of year in my opinion were Complete Mage and PHB II.
Big fan of high level and epic play, so books devoted to those themes would make me very happy.
And dibs on helping out with a book devoted to evil characters and villains, whether for Pathfinder or Golarion.
You know, 'cause 'dibs' is really gonna get me somewhere. : }
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My list goes something like this:
Bestiaries - I believe 2 "all-inclusive" hardcover bestiaries beyond the first one (WotC ran out of good ideas around MM 3). Further bestiaries could be softcover and focused - outsiders, dragons, undead etc.
Psionics Book - but please, compatible with 3.5 material. You don't want to make Complete Psionic cry (even tho it is a really crap book)
Class splatbooks - YES, but not as a random collection of feats and PrCs. Have them expand options for the base classes, MAYBE introduce 1 new base class (but a well designed one, to avoid CW Samurai and Truenamer), limit PrCs and feats to reasonable amount.
They could go this way:
Martial Classes Book (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk)
Divine Class Book (Cleric, Dr00d, Paladin)
Arcane Class Book (Wizard, Sorcerer)
Rogue Class Book (Rogue, Bard)
"Environment Books" - I believe that one about urban adventures, one on wilderness and one on underground would be enough.
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Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Are we still talking backward compatibility? If so, I'm not seeing it with your proposed Epic level book. (Frankly, I remain a fan of the Epic Level Handbook and only wish WotC had been more forward thinking on how to make higher levels more exciting.)
An interesting point with the psionics. I suppose that could still be backward compatible. Honestly, I like the point system. (Wish it existed for magic, too.) So, in that respect, unless it was "WOW" and "SO MUCH BETTER THAN Psionics 3.5" - I might be reluctant to get on board.
Still, in going back to the original theme - one thing I'd love to see Paizo tackle is variant special abilities and class builds. I am a big fan of the d20 Modern and Star Wars Saga Edition use of talents. They add a tremendous amount of flavor to the classes and function similar to special abilities. I'm sure Paizo group could come up with some impressive and inventive ways of just showing how diverse the original core classes can really be.
To that extent, I'd be for Paizo taking the Pathfinder concept, and even the core classes, and showing us how to do a modern/contemporary swing, including variant builds that represent contemporary society.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Form of the books: preferably 128+ page softcovers. Long enough to cover material in some depth. I find for things like monster books, 64-96 pages just doesn't work out to being that much. I'd certainly subscribe to it.
Titles: What I most want is a Planet Stories style setting book, especially for Akiton and Castrovel. That's part of why I think it needs a decent page count :) A book on high level (15-20th) play, but not epic. Psionics (I know there's another thread for this). Books for the other continents of Golarion.
Rules bloat: Yes, fear it. I'd rather not more than a handful of new classes and races outside of dedicated settings like the planet books above. I'd also prefer to not see whole books of spells and magic items - they're easier to keep under control coming a few at a time.
Prestige classes: I'm pretty sick of them, particularly after trying to come up with three new ones. I'm fine with only seeing a handful a year, to be honest.
One more push: A book for the red and green planets! :)
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Creative Director
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I'll crosspost this to the psionics thread Erik started...
BUT! For those of you who prefer the current XPH point-based system... does it feel like it needs an update or a fix to you? I'm not a fan of that system, and to me the "fix" would be to rebuild it in another way entirely. I don't want to do that if that means enraging all the current psionics fan, but as Erik hinted... if rebuilding psionics so that they work better with the core and don't use their own easily-abused (in my opinion) unique point-based system brings in MORE customers to the psionics fold... would it be worth doing anyway?
In the end, the current XPH will remain compatible with the Pathfinder RPG, anyway. What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?
Our group wouldn't buy them if you didn't rebuild them. And that's 4-5 copies of each as we are customers you should like a lot - playing only online so we each need our own copy :)
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If, like the current subscriptions, we got a free PDF, I would definately be on board. Though I would add my voice to the comment about international postage issues for hardcovers to overseas subscribers (the postage for the core book to Oz is more than the book itself).
I think 2-3 books a year, if one is a bestiary, is a good (and affordable) number.
I would love to see the following:
Unearthed Arcana - Alternative classes (aka the cloistered cleric) and alternative class features.
The Campaign Guide - a book on how to design a campaign, new monsters, new spells, new prestige classes etc that are specific to the DM's world.
I would love to see an Epic book....a psionic book would not interest me at all.
As for Prestige classes, I have always preferred world/organisation specific PRCs so I would prefer to see them in the other PF products (such as in the PF AP books).
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What is it that fans of the current XPH think needs "updating" if anything?
The classes and skills. (I.e., having merged Concentration with Spellcraft, will the same occur with Concentration and Psicraft? What about Autohypnosis?)
Honestly, the classes are pretty bland.
Just don't destroy the point system. It rocks.
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Creative Director
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Just don't destroy the point system. It rocks.
That's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. WHY does it "rock?" Does it rock because it lets a psionic character outshine every other class by turning the firehose up to 11 and going nova and unleashing much more power in a single encounter than a core class could ever hope to do? Because that's my main complaint about the system, frankly.
Is there something I'm missing about the point system that makes it fun for everyone, and not just the psionic character?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Just don't destroy the point system. It rocks.That's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. WHY does it "rock?" Does it rock because it lets a psionic character outshine every other class by turning the firehose up to 11 and going nova and unleashing much more power in a single encounter than a core class could ever hope to do? Because that's my main complaint about the system, frankly.
Is there something I'm missing about the point system that makes it fun for everyone, and not just the psionic character?
I don't think that it has more to do with the Point System being better, but more to do with it being different. Psionics really needs something to differentiate it from Magic. It shouldn't just be lumped in as another (Arcane/Divine) Casting Archetype with Spell Levels. Psionics can be used throughout all four Base Archetypes and shoudln't be pigeonholed by using a similar system to regular Magic.
Blowing all your points in one hit is a good way to get yourself dead. I know for sure my group wouldn't make camp (15 Minute Adventuring Day Scenario) if my Psionicist blew all his points in one hit. It would only happen if there was a general consensus from all party members with finite ability uses. In that case they'd just be an average fighter or non-casting caster for a couple of encounters.|
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Just don't destroy the point system. It rocks.That's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. WHY does it "rock?" Does it rock because it lets a psionic character outshine every other class by turning the firehose up to 11 and going nova and unleashing much more power in a single encounter than a core class could ever hope to do? Because that's my main complaint about the system, frankly.
Is there something I'm missing about the point system that makes it fun for everyone, and not just the psionic character?
I think it's just a matter of taste. I like spells point systems, but none of my psions has ever nova'd. I just find the system much more to my taste than Vancian-ish levels and slots. I suspect that a decent number of those who played psionics in 3/3.5 did so for similar reasons.
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Something similar to 'Magic of Faerûn' would be great, i.e. new spells and magic items (some of them maybe even from 'RPG Superstar 2009'?) unique to Pathfinder. Perhaps this sort of book could include even some encounters, wizard guilds/towers (with maps), NPCs, and mini-adventures?
It *could* include Prestige Classes, too, such as the Archmage, but hopefully no 'Daggerspell Infiltrators' or 'Masters of the Invisible Hand'. ;) Also, I'd like to see certain non-core Domains (e.g. 'Undeath' and 'Corruption') featured in such a book -- under a different name, if need be.
Also, I asked the FR designers many times over the years for a "mini-dungeon"/mini-adventure book that could have included small and "generic"/adaptable adventures (and also the "first look"/update to FR's many dungeons). Now they're publishing 'Dungeon Delve', which isn't exactly the same, but it got me thinking: as PF RPG is coming out, this sort of "adventure compilation" might be a great idea. Many GMs are often all too busy to constantly write their own material, and yet I'm fairly sure almost every GM could use such "mini-adventures" as "bonus quests" in between longer adventures.
Erik, do you think there'll be any chance for books such as these?
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I'm not convinced that psionics is really that powerful, having used it very recently in a PbP for a villain. I think there is a big flaw in the "psionics is too powerful" argument. A psionic character has to pay addional points to get effects that an ordinary caster can get for free.
For example, at 5th level, a wizard does 5d6 with a fireball with a 3rd level spell slot; a psion can do 5d6 with a very similar effect, and that costs 5 power points (the standard cost for a 3rd level power). At 9th level, a wizard does 9d6 with a fireball with the same 3rd level slot, whereas to do 9d6 with the psionic fireball the psion must expend 9 power points (the equivalent of a 5th spell).
So while it is true that a psion can blast off lots of powerful powers without regard to the limitation of spell slots, he is nevertheless limited by the availability of power points, and much more heavily, since the requirement to spend those is not linked to the level of the power as to the level of the psion. So while psionics provides a terrific amount of versatility, you are significantly limited with what you can acghieve by you available power points as the major balancing factor. This applied to all powers - buffs, attacks, and so on.
I don't really see the problem with psionics on that basis - at any reasonably high level of play (where this might be an issue) many casters don't get the chance the blast off more than a few high level spell slots before being whacked by the party. Assuming they have used lower level slots to buff a bit, they are pretty unhindered in combat using their higher level slots. A psion in the same situation will have used up precious power points to buff and then have less in the kitty to to blast (or whatever) in combat. I haven't checked the maths but I strongly suspect that power point amounts per level correlate strongly with the equivalent spell slots for a normal caster. So on that basis, I suspect most things even out very equitably - psionics might even be slightly underpowered, because of the scaling issue noted above.
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Well, I already started a thread called "Pathfinder Apocrypha". That would be some kind of combination of PHB2 and Unearthed Arcana. I'll repeat here what I said back there considering that hypothetical book:
1) I would like to see some non-core races: asimar, tiefling and genasi, for example. But I would like to see them as templates to be added to any of the core races. There's an article in one of the Dragon Magazines titled "Skills&Powers for Planar Heroes". In that article there are rules for different origins of planetouched races: abyssal or bathorian bloodlines for tieflings, for example. I would like to see more diversity for planetouched races.
2) New classes: James talked about blackguard, but I would like to see warlock (now I know that warlock is IP of WotC) and psionic classes as well.
3) New rules for existing classes. For instance, new bloodlines for sorcerers and spell-point variant rule for sorcerers.
4) New feats, but not conventional ones, like Paizo's take on Item Familiar feat.
5) Detailed rules for firearms. Something along the lines of rules presented in Iron Kingdoms. There are firearms in Golarion, so that devil is out of Hell.
6) Rules for feats and skills as treasure. How much a feat costs, anyway? Can it be learned in a university? I'd like to pay 50k or 100k gp for a feat, instead of a magic item.
7) Rules for gestalt characters.
8) Completely different rules for familiars and animal companions.
9) Ways to customize core classes and races, like in Skills and Powers.
10) Racial levels.
Than, more monsters, please. Bestiary 2 is a good choice.
And, finally, for the third book for this year, I would like more races, something along the lines of Savage Species and Complete Book of Humanoids, but combined with Classical Monsters Revisited. I would prefer completely new races, than monsters as PC's. I would like to see some of the races from Arcana Evolved and if it all possible - warforged and dragonborn. They are becoming increasingly popular with both of my gaming groups.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
I'd like 4 books per year, wouldn't mind one of them being softcover and/or black & white even! As for subscribing, don't think so since I might not be interested in some books.
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
1. One bestiary per year.
2. Items, equipment and tools, with lots of info on crafting and professions, markets and the like.3. Options for classes (alternate class features, feats, skill tricks and more more detailed uses of skills).
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
No new races. All the races we need should be covered in Bestiary. As for new base classes, I'd rather have lots of alternate class features instead. I'm dying to get an option so I can finally trade the cleric's armor for something worth it!
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
I don't like them, and we already have a truck load of them from 3.5. Alternate class features are the way to go. Prestige classes aught to be exactly that : classes that have some prestige, hence are tied to an organization, hence setting specific (Pathfinder Chronicles or AP, not core).
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I'm not sure I'd be willing to shell out for 3 hardcover books a year. One book, yes. Two, maybe.
That said, I'd like to see stuff that provides variations on the existing core classes. For example, maybe give some weapons that aren't normally used and some tactics on how to best use them (I'm thinking the Pole-arm article from Dragon a few years ago).
I'm not really crazy about new prestige classes or feats. There are already plenty of those.
I wouldn't mind a collection of kick-ass, poster-sized maps either - perhaps for some of the cities (like Absalom).
Maybe you could do some books focusing on the various races of Golarion - provide details on culture, language, etc.
Lastly, I wouldn't mind seeing a book on similar to the 3E Arms and Equipment Guide. I like stats on various modes of transportation - my last three characters have all started off the game with a mule and wagon.
My Pathfinder subcription eats up most of my gaming dollars, so the slower your release schedule, the better for me. I'll probably look for one, maybe two books per year, but certainly no more. Even as we speak I'm saving my money for the hardcopy Pathfinder RPG. The Guide to Golarion or the Bestiary will probably be next on my list.
I've always thought prestige classes should be tied to the game world more and probably wouldn't be interested in a compendium of them as a rule book.
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While I'm a loyal Paizo subscriber and the like, I'm thrilled by the settings, stories and world, not rules. I have enough rules by far.
I would not subscribe starting off, because while I wouldn't mind a Paizo take on Epic or Psionics, even a monster book, ANYthing resembling more rules for the sake of rules (i.e. any "Complete" book) I would really have no interest in.
Psionics and Epic: rebuild to suit your taste and the new RPG, don't worry about what was done before and stepping on toes. Start fresh. Paizo monsters I love because more often than not they're a story in and of themselves.
Feats? Bah. New spells and powers? Bah. New Prestige Classes? Mega Bah. :-)
-DM Jeff
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RPG Superstar 2013
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I think a prestige class rulebook merits some discussion. I got no problem with prestige classes: players who like them will buy and read a book full of them. Players who want the option might have it on the shelf, dms might have it ready for diverse NPCs, etc.
In a game full of players who disdain prestige classes, a book full of them might be a dm's best friend - to flavor and focus his NPCs.
Some might feel the game is 'over prestige classed', but then there's a lot of ground to cover with them. In a pbp here I play a guy planning for 2 prestige classes form the beginning - they fit well into theabilities and flavor I want for him. In the other, I have no plans for prestige classes, but i will take a few levels of scout. Depends on the character, game, background etc. Extra prestige classes isn't ruining the fun for the second character, but I might not fully enjoy the first without them.
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What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Discuss.
At the moment, I can't afford a new subscription - I can barely keep the ones I already have.
That said, probably I'll buy the books nonetheless, maybe in specific periods of the year such as during the X-mas holidays.I'd like to see a Paizo take on the epic-level rules, monsters as playable races (classics first, new races last), geographical stuff, and psionics. In this order.
Some areas/niches of the rules need to be expanded, explored or outright developed in a brand new manner, so I see no real bloating (see the aforementioned epic and psionics).
Existing stuff, such as magic or combat, can benefit from a bit of detailing in very specific matters (fighting styles, cooperative and ritual magic, and so on) but I'd rather stay faithful to the core book instead of requiring additional splatbooks just to have all the options available.
I'm not really fond of new races (other than the monsters-as-characters option), and in all of my vast d20 library there are only a handful of non-core classes that I really like. Less is better, at least to me.
Almost the same could be said of PrCs. Some of them are representation of staple concepts of fantasy gaming (such as the assassin), others are a nice specific variant linked to the setting (the Red Mantis), and they both fit well.
The 3.5 "all combinations/professions should have a PrC" where you had a Trading Company X Master Merchant PrC? No thanks.
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I'd like to throw another side question in here...
If we were to do an Epic Level book or a Psionics book... would you still be interested in said book if what we did with them kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Say, a Psionics book that presented rules for psionics that ditched the point-based system and did psionics in a method that dovetailed easier and more gracefully into the core rules (The goal here being to ease concerns that adding psionics to an existing campaign tends to break that campaign.)
Basically: would folk still be interested in books like these if we took pains to stay true to the expected flavor of the book but rebuilt the rules drastically? Or would that be a deal-breaker?
I'd love if you did that. So:
- Psionics (I'd love to see that made easier like you just posted)- Monsterbook (including Goblin Monkeys)
I don't think I would go for a subscription right now. But that will depend on how many a year you put out. For two for instance a year I would likely sign up. Also it depends on if you get the PDF version with the subscription (thats a big bonus).
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Monster books are a must...
Psionics and Epic are only as good as the availability of relevant adventures! Who wants a book you can't use? If you put out an Epic book let's see a Paizo Epic adventure or campaign (one that starts at level ~18 and goes through the twenties).
Monsterous character rules would be vastly more appreciated than Races of XXX type books.
Classes, class varations, feats, spells, bla bla bla. I like it, but how much is enough? Maybe there should be Theme books. Like an Eastern Flavor book that has samurai, ninja, and related campaign crunch. This would make more sense than a Warrior book for the samurai and a Rogue book for the ninja.
Just don't destroy the point system. It rocks.That's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. WHY does it "rock?"
Simply, it rocks because it provides maximum resource control. It's like 3.5 edition Power Attack - you can fine tune it to a razor. "Hmm, he looks pretty hurt, should I throw a 4 point or a 8 point crystal shard at him?". You can throw out dozens of very low point cost powers, or just a few very high point ones.
I actually created a magic staff in first edition to allow just this sort of control (though I'll admit I never gave it out, it did a lot more and was far too powerful).
So that's it really - Control.
I don't think a Psion "nova'ing" is really that different from a wiz/sor casting all their high level spells at once. Psion has a slight edge with Schism in doing it faster perhaps, plus overchanneling and such.
They could go this way:
Martial Classes Book (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk)
Divine Class Book (Cleric, Druid, Paladin)
Arcane Class Book (Wizard, Sorcerer)
Rogue Class Book (Rogue, Bard)
I think this is a good Idea to build from my only problem is I would want these 4 books ASAP
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I think this is a good Idea to build from my only problem is I would want these 4 books ASAPThey could go this way:
Martial Classes Book (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk)
Divine Class Book (Cleric, Druid, Paladin)
Arcane Class Book (Wizard, Sorcerer)
Rogue Class Book (Rogue, Bard)
Then merge the 4 categories into 2 and produce 2 books for each.
Further books I would like to see are a mass combat system including seige warfare, the Medival caste system from kings to slaves, a book on equiptment (not just weapons and armor) and a book to add cinimatic elements to game play.
Few rulebooks a year sounds great to begin with! But here is what I would be interested in and what not:
I am interested in...
...a book like the Tome of Battle from Wizards, but without a whole knew sub-system of rules (of course not counting the Combat Maneuver Feats and such things as the Rage Pool of the PRPG barbarian). A book with combat options in the form of base and prestige classes, feats, spells and substitution levels for every core class. Especially in the form of new Combat Maneuvers, Rage Powers and Auras for the paladin. And with some rules for mass combat and huge battles!
...a Pathfinder Bestiary once a year, updating 3.5 monsters from Pathfinder and other OGL sources, but also introducing some new ones. The monsters wouldn't have to be Golarion specific, but there should at least be a sidebar concerning the creatures existence on Golarion.
a collection of base and prestige classes, feats, spells and substitution levels, updating those from OGL 3.5 sources, Pathfinder and introducing new ones every other year.
I am not interested in...
...a book introducing a sub-system for spellcasters like Tome of Magic from Wizards did. Although the book might be good and the rules are sound, I don't want too many systems at my table complicating everything.
...a book on psionics. (no offense meant in the direction of psi fans, I am just totally happy with arcane and divine magic!)
...a series on books discussing adventuring in various climates and environments.
I am quite undecided... about a book on horror. It could contain haunts and all the other rules for adventures, even campaigns with a truly dark touch, but...
BTW I am very interested in epic rules, although I am not sure what Dr. Jacobs is up to completely differentiating between epic and normal game rules.
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In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.
That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.
What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?
What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?
We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?
Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?
Discuss.
Recognizing that there are a ton of existing OGL monsters that people will want (and probably expect, need is questionable) to see "officially" converted, I expect you will wind up doing a new monster book every year.
Beyond that, no matter how you much anyone may deny it, the thing that has destroyed every single edition of the game has been rules bloat. I might also muse that perhaps it has been rules bloat, producing endless streams of new rules books, that has destroyed every single iteration of the company, as the constantly dropping sales of such eventually led to financial instability.
As I have noted elsewhere, it would already take two or three entire books just to collect all of the new monsters published in Golarion products, and a further set of books, depending on the size, for everything else, particularly new spells and magic items, but also feats, traits, equipment, and more. It has already been said that very little if any of this will be updated, making it all wasted space in those back issues as far as I am concerned, and new Golarion variants will continue to be released.
On top of that, you are considering one or two full-sized rules expansion books every year.
At what rate will this expansion material appear in other Paizo products? To what extent will the material appear? Will I "need" those books for Adventure Paths 5+, or the modules released in 2010 and beyond?
How much testing for balance and synergy will this new material receive? Just in the office games at Paizo? A few home games run by employees as well? Through all 20 levels?
Paizo currently publishes a decent line of game setting products. (It would be better with less of the rules bloat.)
I have been through way too many editions of a fantasy role-playing game with other companies. I am not interested in starting that cycle yet again with yet another company.
Any line of expansion products for the Pathfinder RPG will have a serious negative influence on my desire to continue subscribing to any Paizo products.
Further, unless you are managing a significant expansion of your editorial staff, or a reduction in the schedule of other products, I have serious concerns about how you will maintain a high quality of editing with yet another product line like this, and that will add yet another negative factor on my desire to continue subscribing.
If you really need expansion material, make some small web releases, let the community playtest it for several years, make appropriate revisions, and then release it in a new printing-edition of the rules when the current print run sells out. If that makes the book too large, either reformat it into two books, or wait until enough material has been used and revised unofficially to collect into a supplemental book, and release one of those every 3-5 years as an edition level expansion.
Otherwise, even at a rate of only one or two 128 page or so supplements every year, particularly combined with Golarion specific material, you will destabilize the core system with rules bloat within five years, and "have to" create a full new edition, and "have to" start the cycle of expansion books all over.
Been there, done that, have the swaybacked steel shelves to prove it, going to save my money and become rich (or at least less poor) this time around.