As it often spreads in different discussions, it appears the level of access to magic items (dubbed here "the Magic Shop") has a huge impact on gameplay, especially at higher level.
I'm really curious to know where you stand along the Magic Shop - Treasure table axis.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
I don't want to provoke a "For or Against" discussion, but allow all to share how they play that particular aspect of the game.
Thanks for your input.
DW
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
I have found that using the Magic Item Compendium gives me a good idea of what are level appropriate items. Now that Pathfinder is coming out that may not be true much longer. As to how do I run “Ye Olde Magick Shoppe”? When my PC’s want to buy something and they are not in a Metropolis I’ll roll a d6 and say “even it is available, odd it isn’t”, then let the dice decide. I’ll also roll dice to see how many are available in that particular shoppe. I figure that way I cannot be accused of arbitrarily saying, “No, you can’t have that new toy”.
The pros are that you are effectively taken out of the loop for deciding what is available and what isn’t. The con is that you can still be accused of stacking the dice in your favor. However, each person has their own way of dealing with this subject. This just happens to be mine.
Just my 2 cp.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
Usually, fairly close to the Wealth-by-Level and community gp values. However, I also expand on that with a three-tier "magic shop" system: incidental (less than 1,000-800gp; occasional items sold with other, non-magical items), specialty (minor lists only; dedicated to buying selling magic, only found in cities where there are enough rich clients such as nobles and visiting adventurers to make it feasible), and commission (any item; one-off custom item, need to find/convince someone to craft/enchant it).
Pros to this approach: the PCs have access to magic items as expected by the system, magic items as a commodity are handled in a fairly believable manner (similar to the way expensive items like jewelry are handled in the real world), and it prevents the "MagicMart on every street corner" that many complain about with 3.x.
Cons to this approach: the GM may have different ideas about how to handle magic, the system may not work with the GM's setting (i.e., magic is strictly controlled by governments or other organizations), and the time involved in commissioning custom items can make certain plot lines difficult to run in middle-high level play.
I tend to try and make sure the players find what they are after as they go along. I'll ask everyone during down time what all they think they might like for their characters, or at least what the big ticket items they are gunning for are. Armed with that knowledge I can incorporate some of it in as the game progresses. This way the players are content knowing that they will get at least part of what they are after without resorting to the "grab everything that's not nailed down, pull the nails and take the rest so I can buy my (X)" routine. Other than that I rely both on my feel for what the players need to survive and the wealth by level guidelines. I would point out a lot of people forget about the wealth per encounter guidelines. If you where to add up the wealth by encounter it would be more than the wealth by level... however it is expected that part of that wealth will be eaten up by expendable resources and raise dead spells and the like.
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As it often spreads in different discussions, it appears the level of access to magic items (dubbed here "the Magic Shop") has a huge impact on gameplay, especially at higher level.
I'm really curious to know where you stand along the Magic Shop - Treasure table axis.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
Almost none for anything more than simple low-level potions and scrolls. For anything larger the players have to go and commission someone or make it themselves.
2. How does it affect you game?
Games are easy to run since the players aren't decked out like Christmas trees. This also avoids some of the broken corner-cases of the 3.5 rules. Also, players are attached to their characters few powerful magical items since they all have a story behind them, 100s of years worth in the case of items they have found or tracked down.
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
Pro: Realism. An off-the-shelf magic store just doesn't fit most areas of the Realms or Planescape and that's where I tend to run. The investment needed to have powerful items just sitting on shelves would be crazy, let alone the temptation for theft.
Con: Umm, grumpy player complaining he can't just buy something for the listed cost? It's never happened though.
As an aside, the most powerful item my 25th level character has is a +2/+4 sword - he plays just fine.
I roll up a bunch of magic items in a value range close to what I know the PCs can spend and let them have at it. We like the magic shop. However....
....When I say "roll up", I actually mean roll up. That's not random treasure from the DMG but actually randomly created treasure. It lets me come up with a story for each item at the same time. For example:
I roll up to see which class made the item: Ooh - made by a ranger, that's unusual!
I roll up to see what power level the item is at, in the same ball park as the PCs and their floating cash: Okay, a lvl 17 ranger.
Then I roll up what the item actually *is*: Ah! A quarterstaff! Enchanted at both ends! Shocking and Thundering - awesome.
Next, I roll up caster level, any extras and work out the base price: Oh no, full caster level, that's going to put the price up a bit, but it means that the ranger really didn't want the staff dispelled!
Finally, I roll to see variation on the price - some items should cost more than they're worth, others costing less. It's turned my PCs and players into real bargain hunters! Then I just flesh out the story: So it's a very high caster level staff, at a real discount - 35% off the list price! Obviously the ranger who made this was afraid of spell casters, that's his favored enemies right there - a cabal of magic users, but now the staff's cheaper because the ranger died and the seller believes it's cursed. That also explains why it's in the shop! All that's left is to add some names (the phone book is your friend) and you have something 100x more organic and complete than "87, ah, a +1 axe."
Although I must admit, this takes a *long* time. And you have to be ready for the PCs to not buy something - just because it rolled cool doesn't mean they'll part with their treasure. And why should they? My players really appreciate this approach as the magic items have an actual history and feel 'alive'. I don't mind the work, it's worth it when the sorcerer sees some cool magic gauntlets that are too cheap to pass up and goes on to beat the crap out of things with them, even taking the time to roleplay the scene where she has to rededicate them as their creator was a paladin who served a different god to her.
Love the magic shop! Just some thoughts....
Peace,
tfad
We as a group tend to have a similar bent on Ye Olde Magike Shoppe, so when anyone DM's it looks pretty uniform. If you are in one of the worlds 2-3 biggest cities pretty much anything is available within a pretty short timeframe ie: 1-2 days. A major city or major trade town you can get your hands on the staples like scrolls and potions in fairly short order, there are a few craftsmen who can make you a special item in a week or so and the high level stuff is out of the question save for the occasional random thing a trader might have. In the normal village you encounter 90% of the time Potions, scrolls and components are about all you will find aside from the occasional +1 weapon or masterwork Item. You might find a craftsmen in these towns to build you something +1 or +2 if you are lucky, but not often. This system seems pretty fair and balanced with the intent of the rules, no player complains and it has some sembelance of reality if you think of magic like modern day fire arms. The only place this breaks down is for the sake of not having to carry a bunch of crap from place to place until we find a suitable town, often we ignore the viable economy of a town and allow you to sell just about anything anywhere. Sometimes you have to suspend disbelief, but you also cant expect players to compile 5 levels of crap before they sell all the time either.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
I limit access, severely. Now, that also means I have to watch the opponents. Wererats, for example, are MUCH tougher when silver weapons are not available.
Game works quite well. Magic items are appreciated when they are found. It also forces a certain amount of creativity when characters get a 2000 pound statue that can cast commune 1/day.
The pro is that players don't have to spend as much time making sure they have every scroll, every tool, to defeat the half-dragon black pudding with arrowblock barding, for example. I'd prefer to have players focus on thier characters.
The other pro is a more realistic fantasy setting. If 1% of the population is a spell-caster, then magic items are rare and expensive, and the best spell-casters will attract wealthy patrons, like renaissance artists and scientists.
The con is that I need to think a bit more designing encounters. Some things that would be fine are a bit tougher in terms of CR. It's not really a big deal.
If you allow any item, but most of the time it has to be special ordered and crafted, which takes time, would that be considered a "magic shop"? Or is a "magic shop" only when items are immediately on demand?
Well in our case, the typical magic shop has scroll and potions on hand, but a finite number of items on hand to "shop" for. Anything beyond that would have to be procured or made on your behalf. The contents of the place scales by the size of the city, as does the amount of time needed if they have to get or make it for you. This is due to access to materials, crafters and other shops to trade with.
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in my games, i generally go by the wealth-by-community levels.
if you're in a metropolis, you can buy a 40k item, whether that is a Caravel, a Manor-House, 40 1k diamonds, or a +6 enhancement bonus to a stat item.
as far as magic item shops, we generally hand-wave the actual transactions.
I am not interested in the history of ancient magic items (unless they're part of the story), or whether the boots of springing and striding were made by an elf or a dwarf, etc.
i try to streamline purchasing and selling so as to facilitate the rest of the game.
all that being said, in almost every game we end up with at least one character with item crafting feats, usually for those special order "hat of disguise + circlet of persuasion" jobs.
-t
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
I generally use an estimated (or listed) community max item value rather strictly, and then assign a percentage chance. The % is based on the value, plus the general rarity of the item, and is usually in the 30-50% range for standard but not super-common items (potions of cure light are nearly guaranteed and such, cloaks of resistance +1 in small cities).
I think the limitation aspect makes my players tend to craft themselves a bit more. The availability part tends to have some of them load up on the things they can afford.
Overall, I like my players to be *fairly* well optimized (I limit outside materials rather strictly after all), so I think that contributes to their happiness and fun. It also tends to make the "special" items all that more interesting to them, for instance in my Runelords game:
This is the Pathfinder forum and I do not play Pathfinder. However, I believe this question applies well enough to all fantasy games that I should like to respond.
I have never liked the Magic Shop philosophy; even when I played D&D. It was one of those D&Disms that hurt my own suspension of disbelief. I wanted my gaming experience to follow cinema and literature of which my own personal preferences never contained the Magic Shop philosophy.
1. In my fantasy games, characters may have one, maybe two magical items. It is not unusual for characters not to have any magical items at all.
2. It is a non-issue in my games. In most systems I use for fantasy games, characters pay points for special equipment. You can pay points to be able to cast Fireball or buy a Wand of Fireballs. The wand is cheaper, but you could loose it.
3. The pros for me are that I do not worry about the characters getting their hands on an item that is too powerful. Anything they want has to go through the same process as abilities they may want to gain. With the same point pool for both intrinsic abilities and special equipment, there is a natural balancing factor. I never have to worry about what magical items monster #1 has. All magic items are rare and valuable. There is no trading in my Monster Slicer +1 for the new and improved Monster Slicer +2. The biggest con for me is deciding what exactly constitutes ‘special equipment’. If I do not charge the Fighter for his mundane sword, am I gimping the Wizard for his Wizard’s Blade spell? The other con is when a new player expects a plethora of magical items. The adjustment period can be difficult.
** spoiler omitted **
Thank you.
My players and I have been enjoying Skye's Emporium in Cauldron and I think it's been working out pretty well. Her inventory is definitely sliding behind the power curve but has been extremely useful for PCs wanting to get utilitarian but minor magical stuff as well as a few quirks.
But keep in mind, I am the one who determines what her inventory is. Not everything in the game is available. She does have contacts back in Sassarine who may be able to ship some other items, but again, I will veto some things that wouldn't be available.
I usually allow PCs to commission things from the local wizards' guilds and other organiztions. At that point, I don't usually put too many limits on what they want to make. I figure the PCs, in this case, take the place of the patrons that used to commission artists back in real history.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
Usually, fairly close to the Wealth-by-Level and community gp values. However, I also expand on that with a three-tier "magic shop" system: incidental (less than 1,000-800gp; occasional items sold with other, non-magical items), specialty (minor lists only; dedicated to buying selling magic, only found in cities where there are enough rich clients such as nobles and visiting adventurers to make it feasible), and commission (any item; one-off custom item, need to find/convince someone to craft/enchant it).
I want a world that is "organic," in that you can see how the system "grows" from the ground up. Not to pick on you, Dragonchess Player, but think of the ramifications when "incidentals" are in the 1-8k gp range!
In a world where one can stay at a common inn and eat common meals for ~1gp/day, a 1k gp "incidental" would support a family 6 for a year, give or take. A mid-level character's wealth could support an entire village.
We're conditioned by reading the Hobbit and forget that Smaug possessed the treasure accumulated by an entire Dwarven kingdom over millennia. We forget Smaug was an incarnated fire-spirit powerful enough to drive an entire Dwarven kingdom out of their own halls, defeated only by Deus Ex Machina.
"Wealth-by-level" has to come from somewhere. Do ogres mine gold and strike coins? Are they saving up for a year-end trip to Ogre-Mart? Or should they only have the handfuls of coppers and a few silvers that they've plundered from peasants who do most of their trade by barter rather than coin, and which they save to buy "fire-water" from passing smugglers?
Pros of a reduced-wealth world: earning money becomes the central plot device. Characters can't wander around stumbling into fortunes, they must find an employer, or find some way of making their adventures pay, or be fending off the loanshark's collectors.
Cons: more work for a GM to adjust premade adventures, etc.
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My players and I have been enjoying Skye's Emporium in Cauldron and I think it's been working out pretty well. Her inventory is definitely sliding behind the power curve but has been extremely useful for PCs wanting to get utilitarian but minor magical stuff as well as a few quirks.
But keep in mind, I am the one who determines what her inventory is. Not everything in the game is available. She does have contacts back in Sassarine who may be able to ship some other items, but again, I will veto some things that wouldn't be available.I usually allow PCs to commission things from the local wizards' guilds and other organiztions. At that point, I don't usually put too many limits on what they want to make. I figure the PCs, in this case, take the place of the patrons that used to commission artists back in real history.
I don't know how far you are in the SCAP; I've got ONE game left!
Here's what I did for Skie's Treasury to keep it upgrading.
1) Start with given list.
2) each chapter roll a d20 for each item.
RESULTS.
1-4 the item stayed exactly the same.
5-8 the item was bought from Skie, and she replaced with something exactly the same value.
9-14 item bought and replaced by something costing 50% more.
15-19 item stayed the same, but became enhanced further (like increasing +1 sword to +2 or +1 shocking)
20 Item bought and replaced by item costing twice as much, or having something of special material (Mithril Breastplate instead of just Breastplate).
rule of thumb; replace Small-sized items with equally small-sized items so that small-sized characters always have armor/weapon options.
This gave a realistic feeling that a player could just let the item sit there if they wanted it - for it may have sold and changed when next chapter starts. I rolled at the START of each chapter - so that they had money at the end of each chapter during downtime to buy anything they wanted before changing it over.
Robert
I admit that I'm probably the worst/laziest DM in the world when it comes to this. I tell my players: "O.K., you're level 5 now, so pick a bunch of stuff that is suitable for a level 5 character." So there isn't even a shop at all -- maybe Santa drops the goodies down their chimney, I don't care.
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I admit that I'm probably the worst/laziest DM in the world when it comes to this. I tell my players: "O.K., you're level 5 now, so pick a bunch of stuff that is suitable for a level 5 character." So there isn't even a shop at all -- maybe Santa drops the goodies down their chimney, I don't care.
yeah....that's lazy. :-)
But the game is about having fun - if that's a level of detail that takes away the fun, than you're doing it right as far as i'm concerned.
And if Santa looks like the Paizo holiday wishes email I got.....she can come give me some goodies any time she wants!
Robert
After several years of playing, I've just finally decided to get my feet wet by actually DMing (no co-DMing), in my own world/campaign setting.
We've only had three (and a half) sessions thus far, so I'm still trying to find my groove.
That said, I really REALLY like tallforadwarf's idea above, and am likely going to steal it, and prepare for the inevitable "I need to buy magic goodies".
I can't say that I've ever really liked the concept of a shop full of magical toys (i.e. a Penney's Wish Book in store form), and am still formulating an alternative.
I have this idea in my head that one wouldn't ever really find even a "weapon/armor" store in medieval times (and I could be totally wrong about this), and that most weaponsmiths/armorsmiths would be in the employ of larger factions, rather than plying their trade in some random village/town/city. Of course, that doesn't mean that such a smith DOESN'T exist in said areas, but in my mind (and, hence, in my game), they'd be rare.
As such, I'd expect to see wandering merchants with a collection of "looted" weapons/armor more often than I'd expect to find a large cache for sale in most towns - but that's not to say that the local mercantile wouldn't happen across a sword and decide to put it up on the wall and sell it to someone with enough shiny metal to buy it.
Still a work in progress for my game world... :)
Encounters assume that PCs have level-appropriate wealth. If you give your PCs said wealth by having them find it, then fine, but IMO that strains credibility equally as much as a magic shop. "Ooh, look, a +3 icy scythe, lucky for me this world seems to have a lot of scythe users, cause I use one..."
Anyhow, I am a big fan of the magic shop. My general rule is that if the PCs are in a metropolis and the item is in the CORE books, and they can afford it, then they can knock themselves out and buy whatever they feel like.
I've played in both extremes, on the one hand was Monte Cook's Ptolus, where Myraith or the Dreaming Apothecary could get you anything your heart desired for the price, and another campaign in which I spend a year of gaming (the entire campaign) trying to get a +1 enchantment on my weapon.
The latter was extrodinarily frusterating.
I have never had problems with magic shops. Overpower problems are caused by feats or spells about 95% of the time, and only about 5% of the time by magic items, most of which come form the MIC or something, I have never had a problem with a magic item listed in the DMG.
Furthermore, denying your players magic items, just makes them want to spend feats on item creation so they can get what they want anyway. Why not just sell it to them? Unless you're also going to deny your PCs the downtime to create magic items for themselves, in which case, I probably would not want to play under you.
I have found that using the Magic Item Compendium gives me a good idea of what are level appropriate items.
Yeah I *really* like how the MIC did item levels. I mentioned once before that I hoped this system would be replicated in PF and I'll say it again, I hope there is some sort of equivalent system/mechanic in PF.
That said, I really REALLY like tallforadwarf's idea above, and am likely going to steal it, and prepare for the inevitable "I need to buy magic goodies".
Great - hope it works out for you!
My advice would be to always roll up a couple more than you're going to put on sale, just in case a PC decides to do an impromptu shop. Then you're ready. After you've done this a couple of times, you'll have quite a few spares!
Peace,
tfad
Personally I hate the magic shop concept and really dislike the idea of a pc needing to be decked out like a christmas tree to keep up with monsters as they progress.
This is what prompted my solution:
We came up with enchantment points. A player could spend enchantment points to turn something they had into an appropriate magical item. The cost in enchantment points was equal to the cost in gold for the item. Essentially, items that were used by heroes would spontaneously become enchanted. By keeping the number of enchantment points below the WBL guidelines the gm could throw in magical equipment as they wished without tipping things too far and finding a previously enchanted magical item became something to comment upon.
that's all well and good but, mechanically, that suggestion is the equivalent of magic item stores.
There is no difference between that and any other DM keeping his players a little under gold so s/he can give them some nice magic items, and letting them shop for whatever they want with the rest.
As it often spreads in different discussions, it appears the level of access to magic items (dubbed here "the Magic Shop") has a huge impact on gameplay, especially at higher level.
I'm really curious to know where you stand along the Magic Shop - Treasure table axis.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?I don't want to provoke a "For or Against" discussion, but allow all to share how they play that particular aspect of the game.
Thanks for your input.
DW
I hate magic items as they currently stand. they are basically game aids without any, for want of a better word, magic. Truly, I like my magic to have flavour.
specifically addressing your question:
1) Low access. Charlatans abound though. most magic shops are quick witted rogues or merchants with a penchant for bizzaire, and maybe a rank or two in spell craft. The next most common are magic supply stores. selling and compiling spell components, ink, quills, maybe even professional binding. may or may not be run by a low level wizard (but most likely an adept)
In my mind, If you slogged your arese off for a decade learning the ancient arts, you are probably less likely to go hawk your wares at the local market. Most real 'Magic shops' are the small supply hordes of adveturous spellcasters who can charge what they like. I also figure that most wizards would, of their own accord, not build thimngs that are useless to them personally. So the wizard is less likely to own a magic greatsword, but more likely to have a magic quarterstaff.
But that's just my philosophy. And any +2 sword/+4 vs Lawyers would probably be a commission job, by someone with more than coin.
2) It does mean I have to watch out for certain foes. by default DnD was designed that characters have the appropriate wealth and magic items for their level. when my 8th level party has exactly 2 magic weapons, some CR 8 monsters seem a little overdressed for the party.
Roleplaying wise, it does make the wizard pretty much an elitist. I have yet to see a player character spellcaster bendo over backwards to forge a sword for a fellow party member 'just becuase' I have seen a player announce he would withdraw from any protective measures if the wizard would not comply, but the player was being a bit of a jerk.It also means that wealth goes a long way in other areas. PC's, who have the cash for magic, tend to invest in higher ticket items. slave girls, an elephent mount, a tavern. you get the drift. The 8th level party in question had a tavern built with a tower out back for the wizard's research.
3) Pro's: adveturers seem more ..adventuresome and heroe's are more heroic. Charging the Megaploughbeast with a shield bash and holding it to a narrow pass while the rouge climbs a cliff to get a falling/dropping sneak attack with a broken sword blade (does that count as flanking) Is much more heroic and epic in feel than selecting magic sword dujour while the rogue tumbles forward (boots of speed, belt of Dex +4, Pinky ring of tumbling) and the sorcerer wizard reads magic missiles from autocue. also, when describing your character you get to describe your character, rather than his inventory. Looting a body takes a lower priority, as the few coppers on the minion are not worth it, and it's unlikely he has anything magical on him.
Con's: everything is harder. the higher you go, the easier it is to fall. I've toyed with metagaming mechanics in order to maintain a heroic feel. published modules become near on impossible. Of course, reducing the magic items in their inventory goes a long way toward evening things out, but dragons become nigh impossible conquests, and any creature with DR/Magic is a dangerous foe.
Batts
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As a DM I am not interested in roleplaying the small details of the game world.
I tell them that if they can afford it they can buy it - they are usually fairly cash poor though. One character has been hoarding since the beginning of RotR (they are 14th level) and I believe has 10,000 to 12,000 gp to her name.
They buy at the prices in the book - they sell at 1/2 price. This is in large cities (so far Magnimar and Korvosa - although in Korvosa they have often had to roll a 50% check to see if they can find the item due to anarchy and such). In smaller towns they are constrained considerably. They may be able to find a bag of holding but it is a lot tougher in those small towns.
If it is something special then they have to run it by me. They do not find any artifacts in local shops as a rule. I would say my games tend to not have ubber rich characters running around buying up whatever they want but I also do not micromanage it much.
1. Low Access. Whenever I DM, I create two exhaustive lists of items that the players can obtain -- one is a list of keyed items (from specific monsters, chests, and secrets) and the other is a list of random drops (from random encounters). Whatever is left on the random drop list after the adventure is then up for grabs in various shops. I often represent this as a bazaar of traveling merchants, although sometimes I stash the list away and save it for a dragon's hoard or other large prize.
I keep a very tight lid on what can or cannot be bought. However, players who are willing to invest in item creation feats are free to make whatever items they desire.
2. Because there is a smaller, more tightly controlled pool of magic items, players need to be stronger in other ways -- working as a team is critical, so gameplay tends to revolve around tactics, not magic. I sometimes give out feats as player rewards for completing a scenario or good roleplaying.
3. The best part about this system is that I get complete control of what tools the players possess, and the players get a constantly refreshing pool of shiny bits to pick from. It works out well for both sides, just as long as the players have access to items that are appropriate to their character. One might think that players would feel restricted by such a system, but in my experience I have not seen this reaction.
The drawback, obviously, is that it requires more work on my part, but it's worth it to keep the party balance in check. It also saves me the headache of the occasional disruptive item.
Your mileage may vary, but I enjoy the whole process of creating items the same way many GMs have a love for new monsters.
I give my pc's high access to magic. I approach magic in my campaigns with an almost Magi-tech eye. I'm altering some of the Iron Kingdoms rules on Mechanikal item creation to produce a high-magic society.
Besides that, I do present "Magic Shops" fairly widely available. After all, if the money is there then someone is going to cash in on it. I also assume a more wealthy world as a whole, however. So low-powered magic is used at even middle-class levels. Even farmers may go in together on a construct to help with planting or harvests.
I do not, however, allow my pc's to just go through the book and select what they want. All of my "Magic Shops" are thematic, and the vendors have specific areas of expertise. I try to provide the pc's with interesting and varied magic items as loot as well, avoiding piles of coin whenever possible.
I think this lends itself to some interesting situations, but it seems to be enjoyable. My wizards still tend to take craft feats, as being able to get specific items still has appeal, not to mention saving money by making it themselves. I don't know about pros and cons, but the game plays well, and my pc's don't complain. It takes some prep work, but I enjoy it.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
2. How does it affect you game?
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?Usually, fairly close to the Wealth-by-Level and community gp values. However, I also expand on that with a three-tier "magic shop" system: incidental (less than 1,000-800gp; occasional items sold with other, non-magical items), specialty (minor lists only; dedicated to buying selling magic, only found in cities where there are enough rich clients such as nobles and visiting adventurers to make it feasible), and commission (any item; one-off custom item, need to find/convince someone to craft/enchant it).
I want a world that is "organic," in that you can see how the system "grows" from the ground up. Not to pick on you, Dragonchess Player, but think of the ramifications when "incidentals" are in the 1-8k gp range!
In a world where one can stay at a common inn and eat common meals for ~1gp/day, a 1k gp "incidental" would support a family 6 for a year, give or take. A mid-level character's wealth could support an entire village.
That's "incidental" as in "incidental to the normal business of the establishment." If you wish to design your own economic system for your game world, more power to you. However, using the values in 3.5 core and PFRPG, I fail to see how selling the occasional 1,000-800gp magical items (that's not a typo, one thousand to eight hundred) would so unbalance a campaign.
High-quality (masterwork, etc.) weapons and armor can range between 153-1,650gp, even without magical enchantment. It wouldn't be unusual IMO for businesses that buy and sell non-magical items within that price range to have the odd enchanted item of comparable value. Special substances and items (up to 50gp, even without counting the 110gp everburning torch) have a similar price range as potions and scrolls of 0- and 1st level spells. Fully charged wands of 0- and 1st level spells are only 375 and 750gp, comparable to a masterwork falchion or longbow and a suit of masterwork half plate.
"Wealth-by-level" has to come from somewhere. Do ogres mine gold and strike coins? Are they saving up for a year-end trip to Ogre-Mart? Or should they only have the handfuls of coppers and a few silvers that they've plundered from peasants who do most of their trade by barter rather than coin, and which they save to buy "fire-water" from passing smugglers?
Trade goods and weapons/armor plundered from traveling merchants and their guards, relics looted from ruins and/or tombs, valuables taken (extorted) from weaker monsters as "tribute," heirlooms passed down (one way or another), items crafted and/or enchanted by individuals with the appropriate ability... all sources of treasure from an encounter. A family of ogres who survives by raiding a small community of less than 100 farmers probably won't have much treasure from raiding the community, but these ogres came from (or live) somewhere and probably don't spend all of their time on raiding said community.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
Pretty much anything in the DMG (including special items) and most other items if we have a source for it. Generally PCs have access to large cities at mid to high levels (especially with teleportation magic). Of course some items need to be specially crafted (most cities won't have a +2 flaming throwing returning katana on hand for example) and I try to allow time for the party craft them, either themselves or order them. For exotic items (see the katana above), they can probably find them eventually through the various (underground/black often) markets in the city but it will take at least as long as it would to craft it (1 day per 1000 gp value). I'll often say, "Ok you have about a month in down time, what are you going to do during that time? Visit your church? Research/record some spells? Order some magic items?"
2. How does it affect you game?
People get the items they want and we don't spend alot of time roleplaying the encounters to get them.
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
Pros: We don't roleplay out all the work to get magic items. There are often a few levels between visits to cities and so there is often alot of loot to be gotten rid of and alot of stuff to get/make. Also we tend to have 6+ players on a regular basis, so roleplaying one encounter for too long can leave the others bored (never a good thing).
Cons: We don't roleplay out all the work to get magic items. Whenever we first start a campaign and everyone is low level I, the DM, always want to get the PCs to go and talk to people about getting stuff. Make contacts in the cities and such. But as time goes on, I return to my realization that we don't have enough time during the game (and forget about getting more than one person to do anything outside of game time) to spend on such things regularly.
But I have no problem with characters (PCs or NPCs) having magic items, even alot. Heck, as a player I often love to try and fill all my "item slots", even if half the stuff isn't that powerful (lesser bracers of archery for my halfling barbarian-rogue) or even really useful most of the time, because I find it fun. I like the "bling" and it is an aspect of the game I enjoy.
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I'd say this one of those things that is very subjective on how much it does or does not add to the game. Just like things like having to train to level or how fast/slow characters gain experience or if changes in character concept have to roleplayed out in advance or whatever. I don't think there is much merit in claiming any one view is more "realistic" than another, the question is does it make sense within the specific game being played at the specific table with the specific group of players. Yes? Then it is "realistic", no then it is not.
As it often spreads in different discussions, it appears the level of access to magic items (dubbed here "the Magic Shop") has a huge impact on gameplay, especially at higher level.
I'm really curious to know where you stand along the Magic Shop - Treasure table axis.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
Almost none for anything more than simple low-level potions and scrolls. For anything larger the players have to go and commission someone or make it themselves.
2. How does it affect you game?
Games are easy to run since the players aren't decked out like Christmas trees. This also avoids some of the broken corner-cases of the 3.5 rules. Also, players are attached to their characters few powerful magical items since they all have a story behind them, 100s of years worth in the case of items they have found or tracked down.
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
Pro: Realism. An off-the-shelf magic store just doesn't fit most areas of the Realms or Planescape and that's where I tend to run. The investment needed to have powerful items just sitting on shelves would be crazy, let alone the temptation for theft.
Con: Umm, grumpy player complaining he can't just buy something for the listed cost? It's never happened though.
Exactly. No shop, no problems.
I want a world that is "organic," in that you can see how the system "grows" from the ground up. Not to pick on you, Dragonchess Player, but think of the ramifications when "incidentals" are in the 1-8k gp range!
In a world where one can stay at a common inn and eat common meals for ~1gp/day, a 1k gp "incidental" would support a family 6 for a year, give or take. A mid-level character's wealth could support an entire village.
That's "incidental" as in "incidental to the normal business of the establishment." If you wish to design your own economic system for your game world, more power to you. However, using the values in 3.5 core and PFRPG, I fail to see how selling the occasional 1,000-800gp magical items (that's not a typo, one thousand to eight hundred) would so unbalance a campaign.
Sorry about the mis-read, most people don't write ranges from large to small... like I said, I'm not picking on you, just using the example.
High-quality (masterwork, etc.) weapons and armor can range between 153-1,650gp, even without magical enchantment. It wouldn't be unusual IMO for businesses that buy and sell non-magical items within that price range to have the odd enchanted item of comparable value. Special substances and items (up to 50gp, even without counting the 110gp everburning torch) have a similar price range as potions and scrolls of 0- and 1st level spells are only 375 and 750gp, comparable to a masterwork falchion or longbow and a suit of masterwork half plate.
Wealth-by-level implies there is nearly inexhaustable supply of such "incidentals," and of items of far greater power and value. Where do they come from?
Trade goods and weapons/armor plundered from traveling merchants and their guards, relics looted from ruins and/or tombs, valuables taken (extorted) from weaker monsters as "tribute," heirlooms passed down (one way or another), items crafted and/or enchanted by individuals with the appropriate ability...
So traveling merchants, ruins, tombs, and magic-crafters are so abundant every monster gets his share, and eventually lands in the laps of PCs (and back to the monsters with the occasional TPK). Just wondering if people actually think about these things as they play or GM.
Carry on. =)
So traveling merchants, ruins, tombs, and magic-crafters are so abundant every monster gets his share, and eventually lands in the laps of PCs (and back to the monsters with the occasional TPK). Just wondering if people actually think about these things as they play or GM.
So true! Imagine how many times a powerful item has changed hands going from a monster killed to a party TPKed to a monster killed to a party TPKed, etc.
Gives me some ideas...
DW
Pretty much the magic shoppe has potions, scrolls and components.
I roll ranomly for wonderous items based on the cities GP available.
And I have allowed a suit of elven chain +1 with shadow hide built in to be commissioned.
Largely the prices in the DMG for items are what they can me SOLD for, not what you can BUY them for.
1. What level of access do you grant in your game?
Magic shop access is completely prohibited in my games. Purely for the sake of realism. Luckily i game with a fantastic group of the same mind set. My worlds usually follow a keep it simple motif and generally are low magic worlds. Ill allow item creation if they have the cash and or materials. But chances are high theres no wizards around with a high enough skill or if there are there might not be a skilled enough blacksmith... or so on. If its something they NEED then maybe the moons will aligned and a visiting wizard MAY help but it takes roleplaying to convince him and hes a real cantankerous old geazer...if you get my meaning.
2. How does it affect your game?
It keeps things rolling, if no one is expecting a magic item from every bird, halfling, orc, or tree frog they murder then its less of a hassle to keep them in the mind set. I like to keep my games very very gritty, chances are very high youll loose a hand before you find even a potion or dagger +1. I run a game for a group of 7 and theres exactly 4 magic items in the whole group. 2 of which are actually useful in combat situations.. 1) a dagger 2) being a shield.
Granted this is a game but its a game supposed to be about a fantasy world based upon a medievil mindset. So i keep the medievil mindset when i think of magic items.. Was not Excalibur the only magic sword in what...the entire kingdom of Camelot? Not to mention that thing couldnt of been more then a +1 or +2...
So i keep it simple and it keeps the complaints simple..
3. What are the pros and cons of working the way you do?
Pros: Micro managing is easier of what i can and cannot throw at the group. No one complaining that so and so just got a new +5 sword of evil doer butt kicking when they missed their roll for finding it at the magic shop. But really it helps keep the pace and spirit of the types of campaigns and adventures i run. They are far far more excited to find a magic item in a heap of rags stuffed in the corner of an old tomb of a long forgotten kindgom...inhabited by stunty grobi. It gives the path a more realistic outcome. I mean ive even ran some adventure paths where the only thing they got materialistic at the end of the run was a little bit of coinage and some renown with the kingdom giving them a 10% break on things they might buy in the city.
Cons: Scale of CR levels. It was a flawed system in my opinion. I just alter things a little to make it so the players have a "fighting" chance. No dice altering or anything like that just taking away effect that disallow damage or special needs to damage such as Need magic to hurt or what have you.
Oh and the whiny elf always whining about how she wants bondleaf armour...
Wealth-by-level implies there is nearly inexhaustable supply of such "incidentals," and of items of far greater power and value. Where do they come from?High-quality (masterwork, etc.) weapons and armor can range between 153-1,650gp, even without magical enchantment. It wouldn't be unusual IMO for businesses that buy and sell non-magical items within that price range to have the odd enchanted item of comparable value. Special substances and items (up to 50gp, even without counting the 110gp everburning torch) have a similar price range as potions and scrolls of 0- and 1st level spells are only 375 and 750gp, comparable to a masterwork falchion or longbow and a suit of masterwork half plate.
Someone makes or finds them them, just as someone makes or finds art/artifacts, gems/jewelry, ships, etc. The "nearly inexhaustible supply" is a misreading of the the default assumption that PCs can acquire items suitable to their wealth-by-level (i.e., slippery slope fallacy). Just because an item exists and can be found (or the PCs can find and convince someone to make it for them) doesn't mean they appear everywhere. For example, if I had the money, I could buy a bunch of expensive cars such as a $500K Bugatti, jewelry with 10 carat diamonds, a yacht, etc.; however, there isn't a "nearly inexhaustible supply" of such items. Some magic items (minor lists) are probably somewhat common (like $50-100K sports cars), and likely to be owned and sought by those who are wealthy enough (nobles, successful merchants, etc.) to afford them (like ships; even a simple keelboat is more expensive at 3,000gp than a basic +1 weapon). Where there's a sustainable demand (i.e., in cities, where the wealthy tend to cluster), businesses exist to meet that demand. Cities also are likely to have several spellcasters who can, and are willing to, enchant magic items for a fee; tracking one of them down and convincing them is more work than finding a merchant who has already has a business arrangement to factor the items. Obviously, if you want a custom item instead of one "off the shelf," then that will take more time and effort to obtain.
The default assumption in D&D is that as PCs go up in level, they encounter both increased risk and increased reward. The "treasure" the PCs gain from an encounter could just as easily be a bounty, gift of appreciation, or hiring fee from a local noble, associated church, etc. as it could be from items found in the monster's possession. The point is the system leaves the details in the GM's hands where they belong while providing only general guidance ("after X encounters of CR Y, Z, etc. the party should have gained about A + B + etc. additional wealth to remain close to the assumptions on equipment made regarding wealth by level").
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Magic shop access is completely prohibited in my games. Purely for the sake of realism. Luckily i game with a fantastic group of the same mind set. My worlds usually follow a keep it simple motif and generally are low magic worlds. Ill allow item creation if they have the cash and or materials. But chances are high theres no wizards around with a high enough skill or if there are there might not be a skilled enough blacksmith... or so on. If its something they NEED then maybe the moons will aligned and a visiting wizard MAY help but it takes roleplaying to convince him and hes a real cantankerous old geazer...if you get my meaning.
Because wizards are really rare in your game or because you don't use the magic item creation rules? If it's the former, surely your wizard can kit everyone out with magic items anyhow (at less cost!)...
So for the people that are very anti-"magic shop", how do you work with wizards in your games? Can they get access to higher level spells to scribe into the spellbooks or are they stuck with whatever rare scroll they can find and their 2/level?
Wealth-by-level implies there is nearly inexhaustable supply of such "incidentals," and of items of far greater power and value. Where do they come from?
For example, if I had the money, I could buy a bunch of expensive cars such as a $500K Bugatti, jewelry with 10 carat diamonds, a yacht, etc.; however, there isn't a "nearly inexhaustible supply" of such items. Some magic items (minor lists) are probably somewhat common (like $50-100K sports cars), and likely to be owned and sought by those who are wealthy enough (nobles, successful merchants, etc.) to afford them (like ships; even a simple keelboat is more expensive at 3,000gp than a basic +1 weapon).
Yes, in the industrialized 21st century there is a functionally inexhaustible supply of half-million dollar sports cars. You might not be able to find the particular antique Bugatti your heart desires, but if you want a similarly priced, similar performing car you'll find it. They're produced by the hundreds, by dozens of manufacturers, using low-skilled labor compared to a master armorer or a wizard. The high skill is in the designers, the high production cost is invested in the production machinery. In D&D the wizard can't make a magic sword stamper to leverage his genius and produce them with common labor.
Either magic items and exotic materials are commodities, or they ought to be much harder to come by. Wealth-by-level and item creation rules lean towards commodity.
I'm not saying you can't have it that way...
There are no magic shops in my game. I also don't use the magic item industry, erm, creation rules of D&D 3.5E. The Pathfinder RPG magic item rules have wisely done away with XP costs, but their replacement with GP costs smacks even more of industrial magic - just pay the gold to create the item.
For magic item creation, the character must have the appropriate feat and pay the given gold-piece costs, but I also add another part to magic item creation. Each magic item requires at least one hard-to-get exotic component that the PCs must obtain in order to create it. I decide on the component required arbitrarily, so I can ration magic item creation pretty much how I wish.
That said, I would prefer a magic item creation system that is not industrial, but that would rely on less arbitrary judgement on my part. Perhaps this could be achieved by pre-assigning every magic item in the 3.5E DMG/Pathfinder RPG rulebook an exotic component (or several of them), but for me it would be too much work to do this for the hundreds of existing magic items - I have better things to do with my time. If these were already preset in the main book, though, I would welcome it.
Either magic items and exotic materials are commodities, or they ought to be much harder to come by. Wealth-by-level and item creation rules lean towards commodity.
I'm not saying you can't have it that way...
If you have money enough, you can buy just about anything; historically speaking, this was even more true in previous times. What makes magic any different? The rich and powerful (or even just the wealthy and influential) will want to buy or commission magical items if they can't create them themselves. Where there is a demand, basic economics requires that a means to meet that demand exist (or one will be created).
Given the rules regarding creation and pricing of magic items, I've tried to set out how magic items could be integrated into the (not historically accurate) game economy. "High value" commodities are nothing new, either in real life or in the game (artisans, gem merchants, jewelers, moneylenders, etc.); from an economic perspective, there is little difference between a 1,000gp spyglass and 1,000gp bracers of armor +1. A merchant might be more willing to sell a 1st level spell wand than masterwork half plate (both 750gp), since repeat sales are more likely with an item that "runs out."
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So for the people that are very anti-"magic shop", how do you work with wizards in your games? Can they get access to higher level spells to scribe into the spellbooks or are they stuck with whatever rare scroll they can find and their 2/level?
Pretty much stuck. Wizards jealously guard their magic - the fact that they have spells few others do gives them an advantage over their enemies. It also explains why high-level NPC wizards are not always out there meddling with the world - to do so exposes them to those who would kill them for their spellbooks on ground that they have not carefully prepared to their advantage.
In my games, wizards research their own spells, or befriend patron wizards that might give them the occasional scroll to study in exchange for service, or scour ancient tombs looking for long forgotten magic.
I don't have magic shops in my game. At least not ones that sell magic items. I do have shops that sell consumables but a shop that sells +X magic swords. A player might find a magic item for sale somewhere but that would be rare. I do this mainly because I have a low magic world and magic items are rare. The group has just 2 magic items and 4th level now and that's +1 longsword and +2 dagger.
I find pros of magic shops is it give the players something to save their GPs for. As well the player have better access to the magic items they desire.
The cons are magic items kind of lose their magical feel. Sure they are magical but every joe shmoe has a magic sword.
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Absent state intervention or some other shadowy forces, I just don't see why there wouldn't be magic shops, in the sense of 'magic items for sale'. Everything of value has a market (whether legal or illegal). So, if you want low-magic worlds (which to first order will require abandoning the magic item creation rules or else doing something like making wizards really rare or placing strictures upon them), that'll just drive the price up. So, yeah, 'ye olde magic item shoppe' may not exist if the prices are too high, but there'll still be a market for the stuff and money will still talk.
It's what people are like. I have it, you want it; easiest thing is to arrange a trade for something you have that I want, such as money. If you can't pony up, then of course we may have a conflict over it.
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The way I handle it in my game is to allow everything, just not instantly ... I created a chart that players need to roll Gather Information (now in Pathfinder, Diplomacy or Knowledge Local), and spend *time*. If a player wants, they can pay an NPC (a merchant, etc) to get them their object for a finder's fee, on top of the magic item, but the matter still takes time.
Things on my chart affect the DC - if the item is rare to the region (underdark), or cost is no object to get the item now, or they want to go above the local settlement's gold limit, they can.
One adventure we had the players were running around scrambling for a magic item to get into a villain's masked ball that night. They weren't able to find a hat of disguise on short notice, but for a hefty sum they were able to aquire a number of potions of disguise self...
So for the people that are very anti-"magic shop", how do you work with wizards in your games?
I would classify myself in this category, so I shall respond. The systems I use do not have a restriction on what spells are available. That is left up to the GM.
If a wizard in my game wants a new spell, I decide¹ whether I want to allow it into the campaign based on balance and the other character’s schticks. Then I would discuss with the player how to build the spell and how much it will cost. We agree on some in game rational for the wizard learning this new spell and away we go.
¹ Note: I very rarely deny my players. In fact, I would say it is one of my weaknesses as a GM.
I've been blessed with a good group so I don't have to worry about this problem often. In my games it's more of a medium level of magic items that are more often found through adventuring or gifted to someone in the group for services rendered, and the group usually doesn't see it coming. Magic shops do exist, but my group has gotten use to the idea that I'm not out to kill them so if they use what they have in new and inventive ways then they can survive. I don't think magic items should define a pc, but neither should they go without them at all.
Besides, if I someone in my campain went to a spellcaster and placed a special order for a certain magical item, then expect me as the DM to place a small twist on that enchantment.
If a fighter went to a powerful, good cleric and had a sword made to help him combat evil, then maybe that cleric also knew of an evil wizard that enslaved a village. As the cleric enchanted the weapon, he just might have placed a quest spell on it as well. Now the fighter has a choice, take the weapon and be forced to go a save the village, or leave the village to it's fate and the magical weapon behind.
Or something like that.