That's an issue with darkness, not light.Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.
The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
Disagree. It is an issue with both.
(But, it only became such a big problem when the light cantrip became "at will.")
i'd think it would be simple enough to rename it 'candlelight' and have a reduced range/intensity.
that would prevent 100 stones with light wiping out a drow army
(I stil think thats the best solution to most 'at will' cantrip issues. Reduce the effect / range / duration down because you've reduced the cost of casting to zero)
i'd think it would be simple enough to rename it 'candlelight' and have a reduced range/intensity.
that would prevent 100 stones with light wiping out a drow army
(I stil think thats the best solution to most 'at will' cantrip issues. Reduce the effect / range / duration down because you've reduced the cost of casting to zero)
I suggested that a given caster only be able to have a single Light active at a time. This means the party can only have one of those stones (per spellcaster), which is basically what they had before.
There are times when a crossbow is better than acid splash. A wizard is still a person.
And a wizard can also be a begginer as a 1st level character.
I really don't like this at will powers, err, spells...
I suggested that a given caster only be able to have a single Light active at a time. This means the party can only have one of those stones (per spellcaster), which is basically what they had before.i'd think it would be simple enough to rename it 'candlelight' and have a reduced range/intensity.
that would prevent 100 stones with light wiping out a drow army
(I stil think thats the best solution to most 'at will' cantrip issues. Reduce the effect / range / duration down because you've reduced the cost of casting to zero)
either would work
but one affects a spell description, one adds a mechanic
not a big mechanic, but ........
When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
I'm sorry but you have that backwards. Darkness (2nd-level) will snuff/dispel light (0-level) spells. "Light can be used to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower spell level."
Also with drow they are blinded (1 round) and dazzled by bright light (sunlight or daylight). Sudden exposure to the light spell is not enough to trigger this.
There is no major problem with light aside from the minor fixes Ross Byers is suggesting.
*edit* The problem rest totally with darkness which was changed from its 3.5 version to allow torches and other minor light sources to 'lighten' it up. Torches, a mundane item, negates a 2nd level spell. Now that is a problem.
Light - I suggest this, and any other cantrip with a duration, be specified to only allow one to be active at a time, per caster. Otherwise no one if the party ever need carry a torch again, and any caster can light up a whole dungeon. Additionally, there is no reason for the duration to scale with level now that it can be re-cast so easily. I suggest a flat 10-minute time limit. That said, the world will not end if it isn't fixed.When looking at this, it has a HUGE problem that has been discussed elsewhere.
The ability to create light at will is a HUGE nerf for creatures that rely on darkness like Drow or Tieflings.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
I don't know where this rule comes from, please quote the source so I may further my understanding of the rules.
As far as I currently know, spell-like-abilities function exactly like their spell versions unless clearly stated otherwise. This replies regardless of whether they are "at will" or not.
The standard rule is that higher level spells trump lower level spells, so a level 0 light spell should not be able to dispel a level 2 darkness spell.
If there is a rule somewhere that I have missed that contradicts this, please let me know where it is.
Personally, I strongly dislike "at-will" cantrips; Complete Mage's Reserve Feats left a very sour taste and my mouth and "at-will" cantrips/orisons strike me as being too close to that system.
I would rather leave it with casters having slots for cantrips but not having to prepare them ahead of time; they simply can be used as needed but once the slots are used the character is out until they rest.
I don't know where this rule comes from, please quote the source so I may further my understanding of the rules.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
It threw me as well and I had to quickly Edit my post because of it, again lots of little changes in Pathfinder Beta and darkness is one of them. Check page 215, you will notice that the PFBeta darkness is negated like normal darkness. There was a thread almost a month ago about this very spell. Again this is no fault of light at-will and totally a fault of the reworked darkness.
It threw me as well and I had to quickly Edit my post because of it, again lots of little changes in Pathfinder Beta and darkness is one of them. Check page 215, you will notice that the PFBeta darkness is negated like normal darkness. There was a thread almost a month ago about this very spell. Again this is no fault of light at-will and totally a fault of the reworked darkness.I don't know where this rule comes from, please quote the source so I may further my understanding of the rules.
Since an at will can easily counter a 2nd Level spell. :(
Ah, well, I missed that.
I agree, this is a problem with darkness.
I have always thought (with 3.x) that the reason darkness is a higher level spell than light, and continual darkness is higher than daylight, was to make darkness a viable tool as a combat tactic.
I like cantrips at will, and plan to totally disregard the change to darkness - I hope Pathfinder fixes this change.
I think there is still enough time to change a bit the spell system to some sort of mana based.
Some idea I had few time ago, wanna try it with my group as soon as we start again to play:
First of all, vancian spell system should remain, but a new shine would actually do the work to put a new flair, or at least as a designers optional rule in the PFrpg.
I think there is still enough time to change a bit the spell system to some sort of mana based.
Mana-based casting would be a huge blow to backward compatibility, as well as the mechanics of D&D that have persisted for three editions.
If you want to use a mana-based system, Spell Points are outlined in Unearthed Arcana, as well as at d20srd.org.
If you want a hybrid between Vancian casting and Spell Points, then I'll take an opportunity to pimp my Zelazny Spellcasting rules (linked in my profile.)
I think there is still enough time to change a bit the spell system to some sort of mana based.Mana-based casting would be a huge blow to backward compatibility, as well as the mechanics of D&D that have persisted for three editions.
If you want to use a mana-based system, Spell Points are outlined in Unearthed Arcana, as well as at d20srd.org.
If you want a hybrid between Vancian casting and Spell Points, then I'll take an opportunity to pimp my Zelazny Spellcasting rules (linked in my profile.)
Well, about the backward compatibility I partly agree with you, as an optional designer rule is nothing to worry about if you are warned to use this method. But I would like to see for example spellcasters become fatiged, exhausted, or even to loose consciousness when they weave powerful spells (of course against a caster level check!) like in "Record of the Lodoss War", the same I would say to combat classes but with a different mechanic.
But maybe for the first some ideas:
For example, when trying to cast a spell that is over the actual power of the caster e.g. scrolls with 1 or more spell levels beyond the casters spell level casting ability, or if they try to cast a specific spell from a different arcane spell list.
I would tend also to a rule that every character class has a specific endurance determined by his character level/2 + his constitution-modifier, so a 10th level fighter with a con of 16 would be able to fight without loosing the fitness about 8 rounds before becoming fatigued, another 3 rounds (con-modifier) before getting exhausted, and at last again 3 rounds (con-modifier) before he becomes unconsciousness by depletion of his reserves. [btw. the encounter shouldn't last that long, but the mechanic should stay if so]. The endurance feat should allow some extra bonus, e.g. give +2 rounds extra for each conditional step. => 10 rounds, 5 rounds, 5 rounds.
EDIT: *That way characters should always consider if they want the combat or can do it via diplomacy, bluff or inimidate for example.
The still get xp! And the "I am the one" feeling, I got enough HP/spells etc. doesn't overcome your players :).
Cheers.
I haven't had any problems with cantrips & orisons crop up yet in my game, but I don't think my players have given them too much attention. If it was an issue, I would think reversing the decision to have them be usable at will would be a far simpler and more preferable alternative to fixing all of them individually.
I would rather leave it with casters having slots for cantrips but not having to prepare them ahead of time; they simply can be used as needed but once the slots are used the character is out until they rest.
I like this idea.
I haven't had any problems with cantrips & orisons crop up yet in my game, but I don't think my players have given them too much attention. If it was an issue, I would think reversing the decision to have them be usable at will would be a far simpler and more preferable alternative to fixing all of them individually.
I would rather leave it with casters having slots for cantrips but not having to prepare them ahead of time; they simply can be used as needed but once the slots are used the character is out until they rest.I like this idea.
Seconded. I prefer this one too, by far.
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detect magic - possibly most abused spell. walk into room and automatically detect magic. finds treasure, many traps, lots of illusions etc. ...
My experience with this so far is that my players don't actualy abuse Detect Magic but sometime over-use it.
This has lead them to leave behind (so far) coins, gem, and masterwork items since they went "no-magic = no-treasure", also the time taken to analyse every magic aura they met has had them waste some buff-time to check on Everbunrning-Flames and other minor magics active in the dungeon. This even lead them to a few wierd conclusions based on the school identification rolls.
But I would like to see for example spellcasters become fatiged, exhausted, or even to loose consciousness when they weave powerful spells (of course against a caster level check!) like in "Record of the Lodoss War", the same I would say to combat classes but with a different mechanic.
Seriously, check out the variant rules from Unearthed Arcana, especially the [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitalizing]Vitalizing variant[/url. I think it's exactly what you're looking for.
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Mending - This has the Cure Minor Wounds problem, only for objects. If the spell can affect the item in question, it will be restored to full condition in short order by repeated castings, so the spell might as well just fix it. Perhaps require a longer casting time for items that need more HP, rather than force repeatedly rolling 1d4.
Also, would anything break if Mending didn't allow spell resistance? It would allow Make Whole to save some text on repairing Golems.
I've had a bit of a problem with this spell and the broken condition for items a couple of weeks ago.
I feel that as per the PFRPG Beta rules this is somehow overpowered for a 0-level spell, negating the broken condition with just one casting.An ogre fighter damaged but not destroyed a lot of combat equipment of the PCs, but after the fight it was a matter of minutes and everything was perfectly fine again.
I'd limit the damaged repaired to just 1 point, and also limit the times an object/item/construct/whatever can receive a mending spell to 1 time per day, plus any enchantment bonus (so a +2 longsword could receive 3 mendings per day, effectively restoring only up to 3 points of damage).
The higher-performance repairing abilites are better left to the make whole spell, which does not incur in possible abuse from unlimited castings.
Spontaneous but limited cantrips/orisons is probably the best idea all round: it doesn't upset game balance, grants a lot of flexibility and people aren't running around constantly spamming Mending, Detect Magic or Create Water at will.
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detect magic - possibly most abused spell. walk into room and automatically detect magic. finds treasure, many traps, lots of illusions etc. ...My experience with this so far is that my players don't actualy abuse Detect Magic but sometime over-use it.
This has lead them to leave behind (so far) coins, gem, and masterwork items since they went "no-magic = no-treasure", also the time taken to analyse every magic aura they met has had them waste some buff-time to check on Everbunrning-Flames and other minor magics active in the dungeon. This even lead them to a few wierd conclusions based on the school identification rolls.
There's a few nice ideas there i might "borrow" for the next session.....
Currently still prefer the idea of at will, but low powered cantrips
Here's some more fuel for the fire:
I wish Clerics were less meta-magic-y than they are now: It makes sense that a Wizard is an except on the structure of magic, and similarly for a Sorcerer. However, a Cleric or Druid, even though they are a spellcaster, don't study magic to the same degree arcane casters do: They pray. They have faith. This is one of the reasons I pushed for Spellcraft to be dismantled and broken into Discipline/Concentration for the concentration portion and a Knowledge check relevant to the caster for IDing spells (i.e. a Cleric with Knowledge(Religion) can understand another Cleric's spells, while a Wizard with Knowledge(Arcana) understands other arcane spells.) But there are something like 5 threads on that back in the Skills forum.
When applied to Cantrips, I am absolutely fine with a Wizard or Sorcerer being so instinctively in tune with magic and mana that they can see it at will. However, I don't think an acolyte cleric should be so successful. I'm going to suggest that Detect Magic become a 1st level Clr/Drd spell, while remaining a 0th level Wiz/Sor spell.
Well, that is better than "at will", I agree. Who needs the Nile to flood when each of the priests of Egypt can visit each farm and create 20 gallons per level per minute of pure water?
Well, that is better than "at will", I agree. Who needs the Nile to flood when each of the priests of Egypt can visit each farm and create 20 gallons per level per minute of pure water?
When you consider that the Nile flooding provided topsoil and nutrients rather than water, quite a lot, actually.
Yes, all right, but surely the whole scale issue should be addressed?
Yes, all right, but surely the whole scale issue should be addressed?
Yes, which is why in my original post in this thread my recommendation was that create water be amended to create one quart (exactly a waterskin full) per casting, regardless of level. Which slows down the cleric quite a bit in his attempts to imitate a water pump.
True. That is an eminently sensible idea if orisons remain unlimited. I would just trying to feel out how many times per day cantrips/orisons/talents should be usable if they are limited again.
I just thought of something rather elegant.
0-level spells are still exactly that. Spells. However, it is a special ability of the spellcasting classes that lets them cast them at-will as spell-like abilities.
So I propose the following: Set the caster level for those spell-like abilities to be 1, regardless of the actual caster level of the character. This fixes most of the scaling-with-level issues (not things like daze, though.) This would actually be shorter than the current text: 'at caster level 1st' instead of 'Cantrips are treated like any other spell cast by the wizard in terms of duration and other variables based on level.'
This is better because it allows higher-level casters to do more impressive things if they wish by preparing the spell in a higher level slot. So, for instance, if a High Priest wants to be able to cast Purify Food and Drink over a whole banquet at once for a ceremony, he can, by using a first level spell slot, modified by his high caster level, rather than being forced to bless a plate at a time like a 1st level cleric would.
Oh, I like that idea, Ross. Well done!
What about re-introducing the AD&D 1st ed Protection from Cantrips spell?
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Like nearly all of this, it tidies up the spells where originally "at will" had not been considered.
In addition you also need the following general restrictions, mentioned in other posts:
No more than "ability modifier" cantrips at the same time.
Cantrips always treat caster level is 0 (zero).
Duration 1 minute (unless instantaneous).
This gives the caster(s) the choice as to which cantrips should be used at any given time depending on circumstance.
Not worried about detect magic at will, same issue at high level with intelligent swords with detect magic at will.
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Here's some more fuel for the fire:
I wish Clerics were less meta-magic-y than they are now: It makes sense that a Wizard is an except on the structure of magic, and similarly for a Sorcerer. However, a Cleric or Druid, even though they are a spellcaster, don't study magic to the same degree arcane casters do: They pray. They have faith.
Right. They pray for the spell, and the Gods/Angels/Demons/Devils/Philosophies/Etc grant them. They pray for "flame strike, but more powerful" and get empowered flame strike.
I just thought of something rather elegant.
0-level spells are still exactly that. Spells. However, it is a special ability of the spellcasting classes that lets them cast them at-will as spell-like abilities.
So I propose the following: Set the caster level for those spell-like abilities to be 1, regardless of the actual caster level of the character. This fixes most of the scaling-with-level issues (not things like daze, though.) This would actually be shorter than the current text: 'at caster level 1st' instead of 'Cantrips are treated like any other spell cast by the wizard in terms of duration and other variables based on level.'
This is better because it allows higher-level casters to do more impressive things if they wish by preparing the spell in a higher level slot. So, for instance, if a High Priest wants to be able to cast Purify Food and Drink over a whole banquet at once for a ceremony, he can, by using a first level spell slot, modified by his high caster level, rather than being forced to bless a plate at a time like a 1st level cleric would.
simple solution. I like.
add a level to get your caster level bonuses also works well, but like most meta-magic much better for sorcerers / bards than for wizards / clerics
I just thought of something rather elegant.
0-level spells are still exactly that. Spells. However, it is a special ability of the spellcasting classes that lets them cast them at-will as spell-like abilities.
So I propose the following: Set the caster level for those spell-like abilities to be 1, regardless of the actual caster level of the character. This fixes most of the scaling-with-level issues (not things like daze, though.) This would actually be shorter than the current text: 'at caster level 1st' instead of 'Cantrips are treated like any other spell cast by the wizard in terms of duration and other variables based on level.'
This is better because it allows higher-level casters to do more impressive things if they wish by preparing the spell in a higher level slot. So, for instance, if a High Priest wants to be able to cast Purify Food and Drink over a whole banquet at once for a ceremony, he can, by using a first level spell slot, modified by his high caster level, rather than being forced to bless a plate at a time like a 1st level cleric would.
I like that too. Keeps cantrips as low level powers. The water pump thing was funny though.
Hmm, a small cannon could be held in both hands. Could my bard summon one with Summon Instrument? I want to perform the 1812 Overture....
Another option to fix Mending as a reasonable 0-level:
Has no effect unless it would fix the target item to full hit points.it'll take dings out of your longsword and re-join cut rope, but it won't fix that axe that's been snapped in two.
That's elegant! Good job!