| Zero Effect |
I'm looking for suggestions and ideas on how to challenge my players... Such things as foes, tactics, situational challenges, and traps.
We're using the Pathfinder Beta rules.
My players are quite crafty and full of themselves, and they don't resent a good challenge. Please don't hold back.
What are some of the best challenges you've used in your campaigns? Or that you've come across as a player?
| Abraham spalding |
Misinformation, never let them see you roll, and you'll never have to lie.
Make sure everything you tell them is true... and normally let it be taken at face value, but be sure to slip in a few zingers every now and then to keep them from going lock step on you.
Never let them know for sure (unless they make an appropriate knowledge check) just what monster they are facing. Is it a Stone Golem or just an Animated Statue?
Small fluff tweaks can send player expectations out the window.
Example:
DM (Me) "The dragon breaths fire at you."
Players "But you said it was a white dragon."
ME "It is."
Players "Then it cast a spell?"
ME "No."
Players "Then you're just being mean, white dragons breath cold."
Me "No I'm not, an albino Red Dragon is white and has a fiery breath weapon."
It is mechanically a Red Dragon, if they had done a legend lore on the beast they would have known it has a fire breath weapon and is an odd red dragon (they were of level to have that spell), as it was they just went with the villager's discription and where surprised when things were not as they first appeared.
| Godsdog10 |
Play up to the full of themselves aspect. Use it against them! My group once took a job from a man to enter another's residence and retrieve an item for him. Turns out they had unlawfully entered a fine and upstanding member of the communities house who also happened to be a relatively high ranking wizard (which he told them when he captured them!). They were pretty uptight at being duped, but there were certain clues along the way, and since they too were full of themselves, they didn't bother to check who their source was, or who their target was. That nipped that in the bud!
Snorter
|
DM (Me) "The dragon breaths fire at you."
Players "But you said it was a white dragon."
ME "It is."
Players "Then it cast a spell?"
ME "No."
Players "Then you're just being mean, white dragons breath cold."
Me "No I'm not, an albino Red Dragon is white and has a fiery breath weapon."
Groan...that's a notorious one. Almost as bad as being sent to visit the 'Wight Dragon'. (or the Snow Dwarf and the Seven Wights...humming the tune to 'Whistle While You Work', as the PCs are drained, somehow isn't considered humourous...)
| Luna eladrin |
What I think works best, is use the environment. Fights are a lot more difficult in a storm, in a blizzard or in the desert. They are even more difficult in a burning or collapsing building. Works every time.
And try to find deadly combinations of monsters. If a monster has a fire attack, find another monster of opponent who can lower the fire resistance of the PCs. Or similar combinations.
Lead them by the nose. Give the frost giants an illusion of a fire giant, so that the PCs think they are going to fight fire-using monsters. Basically the same idea as the albino red dragon mentioned earlier. Another one which always works, is making the BBEG twins, so that there are two of them. ("How can he be here again???")
Fatespinner
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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My personal favorite is to design encounters that (at higher levels anyway) force your spellcasters to do something other than blasting. Creatures that fly/teleport/go ethereal/etc. and can't be kept in one place long enough to let the fighter and rogue types dish out the major damage need to be pinned down by your clerics and wizards (through use of things like dimensional anchor, web, slow, etc.).
Set
|
Can't find it to save my life, but ENWorld had a thread before their boards blew up in the move to 4E that was all about changing the flavor of monsters so that they were unrecognizable to experienced players.
Example (someone elses idea, from that thread):
The party could be attacked in the graveyard by a ghoulish-looking spirit creature that assumes the forms of deceased loved ones and beguiles people into serving it. When they are fighting it, it dives into a grave and vanishes, only to pop up from another grave to press the assault. The mist that creeps along the ground moves like a living thing, and bony hands thrust up from the earth to grab at their ankles, as if attempting to pull them into graves of their own.
Use the stats for a Dryad. Instead of moving through trees, she jumps through gravestones. The deceptive appearance as a dead relative is her charm person. The grasping skeletal hands is her version of Entangle. No amount of undead turning or bane (undead) weapons or holy water is going to affect her, she's a fey. A dark, unpleasant sort of fey, but fey nonetheless.
Cpt_kirstov
|
Create unusual enemies. They know how to handle an ogre barbarian, but what about a stone giant monk? Or goblin snipers?
And for many groups, create completely new creatures and don't tell them what they are up to.
Along these same line, don't like making monsters, use Necromancer's Tome of Horrors stats for something that was republished in a later WotC MM
| Corrosive Rabbit |
A couple of things that work nicely in creating challenging encounters are to remember that the monsters want to survive as much as the PC do, and that evil monsters don't play fair. Here's some examples of things that have worked for me in the past.
1. Monsters are sneaky:
After a brief battle with kobolds, several surviving kobolds turn tail and flee. Even though the players may know instinctively that they will still get XP for defeating the kobolds, I can almost guarantee that one player will try to chase them down (especially if one of the fleeing kobolds had some shiny good-good). Now that you've split the party, even if it's only by one room, it's time to pour in the second wave (preferably hitting from multiple directions and possibly splitting the party further).
2. Monsters are selective:
If I'm an orcish archer and I've got a shot at the PCs from 80 feet away, I'm probably not going to worry about the heavily armoured fighter who is going to take at least a round to get to me and hurt me. Besides, his armour might stop my arrows. However, the wizard is another matter. Odds are my 19 orcish archer friends are going to come to the same conclusion. 20 arrows for the wizard and a quick withdrawal may seem cruel, but as an orcish archer, that's what I'm all about.
3. Monsters are ruthless:
One thing I've always battled with as a GM is fits of mercy. Although it may seem like you're being a nice GM by letting downed PCs live to fight another day, you're really not doing them any favours by having an ogre shamble by the rogue he just dropped into negative hit points and attack the fighter who is still in good shape. Squish the rogue. To be clear, kill him. The PCs wouldn't hesitate if the situation was reversed.
4. Monsters are unending:
This isn't a call for an infinite number of hobgoblins in a 10' x 10' room, but just an easy way to say that you as the GM can never run out of monsters. The encounter that your PCs would have waltzed through at the beginning of the day becomes a lot tougher when they're running out of spells, healing potions, and other expendable resources. Consider having the monsters let the PCs wander a good ways into their lair before anything happens. That way, when you start springing attacks on them, they don't necessarily have a clear path to withdraw through. Even if they do manage to escape, there's no rule that the monsters have to stay in their lair, let the PCs rest up, and then come back and commence the slaughtering. Have the monsters hunt and harass the PCs. Don't let them rest and make sure they spend every minute looking over their shouders while outside a guaranteed safe area.
These are just some quick and general thoughts -- if you tell us a bit more about the makeup of your PC group, you'll probably be inundated with ideas as to the cruelties you can afflict them with.
| Godsdog10 |
4. Monsters are unending:
This isn't a call for an infinite number of hobgoblins in a 10' x 10' room, but just an easy way to say that you as the GM can never run out of monsters. The encounter that your PCs would have waltzed through at the beginning of the day...
THIS! With the added sentiment that, as the DM you have the ability and right to include MORE creatures should your party be cake-walking the encounter, even in a pre-packaged adventure. Up HPs to max, add a couple points of AC, give the monsters a weapon that is one up in damage output from what the encounter originally said, or just plain add more monsters. It won't change the EL of the encounter (if your players were matched to it and are walking through it, there was obviously something misconstrued in the formula, probably on the player side), make your players EARN that experience! It's your JOB! =)
Vendle
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This is the most difficult encounter I have created (yet) for my group. First, some things to consider:
The four PCs were epic level, 40+ each. One was a sorcerer/eldritch knight/archmage with an epic spell that let her pinpoint enemies up to 90 feet away. The scout PC had a 90ft move and incredible damage potential with skirmish. The two others were a paladin and a cleric.
For the BBEG I created an advanced pit fiend assassin 20. His spells up from the start of the encounter were: Shield, Improved Invisibility, Nondetection, (Nystul's) Magic Aura, Unholy Aura, Spider Climb, and Fly, and a Wish that copied the mage PC's epic spell as long as he was in range of it.
The room was an underground abandoned dwarven meeting hall, 120ftx70ft with a 10x20 shallow extension on the south end. Single double-door entrance at the north end. The ceiling was 40ft high. This turned out to be crucial, as it left 10ft beyond several of the PCs detection abilities. For finishing touches, I had the room filled with nonmagical smoke obscuring vision to 10ft, and also spaced out some rubble to hamper movement. On the ceiling close to the southwest corner, the pit fiend remained hidden behind a 10ft wall of stone, providing upside-down full cover from the north end of the room.
Lastly, the bait. A shield belonging to an acquaintence of the PCs was suspended from the ceiling by a 30ft rope in the center of the room. Underneath it, a 20x20ft section of floor was replaced with a Wall of Force and then covered in a layer of dust to make it appear like the rest of the floor. The wall covered a poisoned spike pit with an anti-magic zone effect. Hidden on the back of the shield itself was an oiled sack containing a patch of green slime. The PCs then recieved a vision of the suspended shield in the hall, minus the smoke.
The results:
As I expected, the PCs teleported into the room and were suprised to find it filled with smoke. They had to make some minor rolls each round to avoid a coughing fit. They quickly split up to search the room. As soon as the mage stepped forward, she pinpointed the location of the demon (inadvertently allowing him to pinpoint all the PCs). The mage then cast a Chain Lightning at the fiend, but it failed from the blocking wall she didn't know was there. She then told the other PCs that the enemy was at the south end of the room. The scout moved, and moved, and moved around the room, but could not find the fiend. The fiend managed to make several sneak attacks but no death attacks before a Feeblemind disrupted his tactics. The paladin had to deal with both the slime and the false floor before the end of the encounter. The scout created a Gate to the Plane of Air, which I ruled slowly dispersed the smoke, giving better visibility after a few rounds.
If I were to redesign this encounter, I would put in mechanical traps, Symbols, and minions. And then maybe some ceiling columns that could be easily collapsed.
| Anonymous Visitor 163 576 |
Flip through the DMG. There's a lot there. Then flip quickly through the PH.
Now, consider fights on ships that involve balance checks, mountaintop battles with high winds, opponents with good mobility, opponents with high AC, opponents who regenerate.
Have PCs fight while fatigued, or without their gear, or under hot conditions, or under really cond conditions.
Then, include battles with lots of civilians present, battles with other things going on (someone controls the racing horses, or steers the raft)
Have fights underwater, or in the dark, or both. Have fights with one super-powerful bad guy, or LOTS of medium strength toughs.
Force the PC's to protect someone or something, or give them a chance to defend a postion for a change against waves of enemies.
Put them under time pressure, so they don't have to win, instead they have to get something done in fifty rounds, or the world ends.
Or, just hit them over and over again, and don't let them rest for days and days. See what they can do when they are out of good options, and only work with mediocre options.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik
|
Templates...Advanced Bestiary provides a lot of nice templates.
On the wizards boards, there were some good templated monsters in the critical threat section. One nasty one was the Ghost Medusa...
Kobold Half-dragons are fun too...especially if they're spawned by tiamat, so they're all different colors.
| Zero Effect |
Great ideas! Thanks!
Here's a compilation of all suggestions so far (for my own notes).
- Whatever tools the PCs use, are fair game for the NPCs.
- Monsters that aren’t what they seem (eg. Albino red dragon). Use illusions and mundane means to accomplish this.
- Take advantage of players’ overconfidence. Create situations that are more complicated than what they initially seem from a surface inspection.
- Play to the villains strengths. Play the villains intelligently. (eg. Use one force to split the players apart, draw certain players away, and then have another force spring an ambush. Don’t hesitate to focus all attacks on the weakest party members. )
- Use the environment against the players. Use settings such as storms, blizzards, the desert, burning or collapsing buildings. Consider battles on ships that involve balance checks, mountaintop battles with high winds, opponents with good mobility, opponents with high AC, opponents who regenerate. Have the players fight while fatigued, or without their gear, or under hot conditions, or really cold conditions. Have fights underwater, or in the dark, or both. Force players to fight and deal with distressing situations at the same time – such as racing horses or steering a raft through rapids. Force the players to protect someone or something, or force them to defend a precarious position against waves of enemies. Put the players under a time pressure.
- Combine monsters that synergize with one another, such as a monster with a fire attack with a monster that can debuff the players’ fire resistance.
- Twin BBEGs or clones.
- Create unusual enemies (eg. Stone giant monk, goblin snipers, graveyard dryad that behaves as undead).
- Create completely new creatures with which the players are not familiar or take creatures from sources not known to the players.
- Tie up the player casters by forcing them to debuff or deal with unusual opponents (eg. Creatures that fly, teleport, go ethereal and can’t be pinned down and attacked in melee. Casters are forced to use spells such as dimensional anchor, web, slow, etc.).
- Show no mercy. Be utterly ruthless, even against downed players.
- Use overwhelming numbers. Reduce and strain the players’ resources such as spells, potions, and charged items. Threaten the players’ ability to rest and recuperate.
- Advance normal creatures in levels and statistics. Do so on the fly, if necessary, in order to challenge the players.
- Combine traps, BBEG, minions, and a dangerous environment in the same encounter. If the BBEG has time to prepare, such encounters can be quite elaborate. (eg. Vendle’s post above.)
Xaaon of Xen'Drik
|
The party composition is as follows:
Level 11+.
Bard (underling)
Cleric
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger/Rogue
Wizard
7 players...It's good to see our hobby growing again, seems like 5+ is becoming more common...and 3e was designed for 4 players.
Yeah, 7 players means you need to ramp up the encounters about double.
Another trick I do, (especially with Pathfinder) is ramp up hit points, up to maximum for end guys. Dodge is a great feat to add when you level up a mob to provide more challenge.
One thing I have noticed with Pathfinder adventures is a lot of the mobs moeny is spent on expendibles. Potions of cat's grace bull's strength and even keen weapon are often used when they know the players are coming.
Kobolds are intelligent, so in low level games, have them act cowardly...(give the players a chance to sense motive if they think of it) and lure the players into traps.
| Corrosive Rabbit |
The party composition is as follows:
Level 11+.
Bard (underling)
Cleric
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger/Rogue
Wizard
That's a really well-balanced party, which is a double-edged sword. On one hand, it can be hard to throw challenges at a party like that, as there aren't any obvious weak aspects. On the other hand, you can throw just about anything at them and not feel bad about it *evil grin*.
A couple more suggestions as far as traps go.
1. Fake Them Out
Don't just use one trap, as the chances that they'll find it, or take negligible damage are pretty high. Use traps in groups of three or so (any more and they'll go into full trap-seeking mode and find the rest). For example, have an easily discovered pit trap in the corridor, with a more cunningly concealed pit trap on the other side. With any luck, someone will try to jump over it without taking a good look at the other side. Hilarity ensues. Then when they're good and fixated on the idea of pit traps, hit them with a deadfall or other ceiling based trap.
2. Make Them Rush
Some of the best traps have a time component involved in them. For example, a room dotted with bear traps is annoying, but doesn't pose much of a threat to the PCs. There's a little bit of damage, sure, but they can just pry themselves out and proceed with more caution. However, if the ceiling of the chamber is descending as they try to cross it, they don't have the luxury of carefully probing ahead, and the concept of being caught in a bear trap, even for a few seconds, carries far more of a threat.
3. Bait Your Traps
Give the PCs some incentive to walk into your traps. Treasure is the obvious bait, but be careful how you use it. A pile of gold coins lying in the middle of the hallway screams "Danger", but a dead body lying in an alcove that has a finely wrought dagger in a belt is a little more alluring. Better yet, go with a partially concealed vial in a niche in a wall (and then hit them with the arm-catching trap ... and then the acid spray ... and so on). Another great incentive to rush boldly forward is a fleeing enemy. In an earlier post I suggested using this to set up an ambush, but it works equally well with a trap. Also, don't overlook the use of illusions to bait and conceal traps. Go for the jugular -- the illusionary sound of a whimpering puppy will draw even the most suspicious PC into danger.
Dryder
|
Can't find it to save my life, but ENWorld had a thread before their boards blew up in the move to 4E that was all about changing the flavor of monsters so that they were unrecognizable to experienced players.
Example (someone elses idea, from that thread):
The party could be attacked in the graveyard by a ghoulish-looking spirit creature that assumes the forms of deceased loved ones and beguiles people into serving it. When they are fighting it, it dives into a grave and vanishes, only to pop up from another grave to press the assault. The mist that creeps along the ground moves like a living thing, and bony hands thrust up from the earth to grab at their ankles, as if attempting to pull them into graves of their own.Use the stats for a Dryad. Instead of moving through trees, she jumps through gravestones. The deceptive appearance as a dead relative is her charm person. The grasping skeletal hands is her version of Entangle. No amount of undead turning or bane (undead) weapons or holy water is going to affect her, she's a fey. A dark, unpleasant sort of fey, but fey nonetheless.
Thank you so much, Set, for kind of "reposting" that idea here! AWESOME!
| Neithan |
Now, consider fights on ships that involve balance checks, mountaintop battles with high winds, opponents with good mobility, opponents with high AC, opponents who regenerate.
Remember the fight between Vader and Obi-Wan? A fight on a burning bridge, that falls into a river of lava and is drifting towards a huge lava-fall. You could add a lightning storm with huricane force wind, but I can't really think of anything else to beat that. ^^
| Golarion Goblin |
A word on traps; Make them twofold. Sure, the rogue rolled high enough to find the poison dart shooter, but did he also find the spear trap that goes off behind him (attacking the party) when the dart shooter is disarmed? There's a pit trap? Ok, have another one covered just past it, only an inch of wall separating the two. Jump on, fall in the other. Admittedly, this is more a challenge for the rogue, but maybe the cleric will spend a round casting find traps for some aid another action with the rogue.
Snorter
|
2. Monsters are selective:
If I'm an orcish archer and I've got a shot at the PCs from 80 feet away, I'm probably not going to worry about the heavily armoured fighter who is going to take at least a round to get to me and hurt me. Besides, his armour might stop my arrows. However, the wizard is another matter. Odds are my 19 orcish archer friends are going to come to the same conclusion. 20 arrows for the wizard and a quick withdrawal may seem cruel, but as an orcish archer, that's what I'm all about.
That reminds me of a cartoon in Dragon, way back.
A siege is in progress, and one figure in the besieging army of thousands is nailed to the ground by hundreds of arrows, resembling a porcupine.
Archer on battlements: "Hey! Whaddayou know? We all went for the same guy!".
Only fly in this ointment is if he has a Protection from Arrows running, and the whole volley is wasted.
This is one area, where the PCs have a huge advantage, being able to act, one after the other, with hindsight, even when on the same Initiative count, while mobs of goons tend to be rolled for en masse. In reality, they aren't literally going simultaneously, but some on Init 11.0, some on 10.9, some on 10.8, etc...
I would definitely allow the same freedom for the orcs in this case. Roll a bunch of d20s, say, five at a time, and if any should have hit, but bounce off some forcefield, etc, have the rest rethink their target. What's fair for the PCs is fair for the NPCs, after all...