Hello all,
I am running a 3.5 campaign, although thinking of switching the rules to those used for the PF system. The biggest concern I had when considering this is that my campaign is psionics-heavy, and PF currently does not offer support for psionic rules.
So, I am considering creating my own, and was wondering if any of the psionics gurus could help steer me in the right direction.
Here is what I came up with:
- Spellcasting has remove all XP components from spells, instead requiring material components that cost 5x the amount in gp that had been required in XP previously. The problem is, psionics does not have material components. While I could theoretically keep the XP costs, it seems out of the spirit of PF to do so. The best idea I have come up with to do so is to add in a mechanic for focusing crystals or something. I can say that Reality Revision no longer has a 5,000 XP cost. Instead, you must have a 25,000gp focusing crystal. The process involves implanting the psionic power onto the crystal, then shattering it to evoke the effect. This keeps the flavor of psionics as not requiring material components, but still replaces the XP cost with a GP cost.
- Psionic classes... I have seen several attempts at this, and I must say that I am not sure which direction to go with it. Many of the attempts have offered good advice.
- The Psion: if I were to model it after Wizard, I would keep the power point progression exactly the same, along with the powers known and max power level known. Then, I would grant the bonus feats of the original psion, increase its HD to d6, and convert the class skills to PF skills. Next, I would use the Arcane Schools as maps for generating Discipline Powers. The spell-like abilities that can be chosen for a wizard would be psi-like abilities for a psion. No problem there. Each of the six disciplines maps to an arcane school, anyway, according to the SRD, so if I was feeling particularly uncreative, I could just copy the powers exactly. So, the problem becomes, how much do I care about low-level psions. A 1st level psion will be inferior to the 1st level wizard for one reason... the wizard has cantrips that he can cast at will. The psion does not have any 0-level powers. They don't exist anymore. Do I create some 0-level powers to make him happy? That doesn't seem like a good solution. Is there some minor fluff that I can add to make him a little cooler? Perhaps he can choose one 1st level power to be usable at will? Or do I make his 1st level discipline power a little cooler? Honestly, I don't know the answer. I have been mulling it over, and I just can't decide what to give him.
- Psychic Warrior: The main consensus for this class is that he seems nearly PF-compatible already. He shouldn't get the fighter's armor training and weapon training, as he already receives power points and powers. If a DM really wanted, some fluff could be added at some dead levels, but other than that, seems pretty balanced with current PF classes. Although, I happen to agree that now that fighters have their armor and weapon training, they don't need to hoard the Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. So, perhaps add in the ability for a Psychic Warrior to qualify for "fighter-only" feats. Anyway, the problem I run into is converting the skills to Pathfinder skills. The Psychic Warrior was not meant to be a manifester who studies his powers. Psicraft was specifically left off of the Psychic Warrior's class skill list, yet Concentration was specifically added. It seems logical for Psicraft to replace Concentration for a manifesting class. What about Autohypnosis? What role would that skill play? Would it be bundled up into Psicraft, as well? If that were the case, it is a no-brainer, and Psychic Warrior should have Psicraft. Otherwise, perhaps Autohypnosis could replace Concentration such that the manifester must choose either Psicraft or Autohypnosis when manifesting defensively. I have always liked Autohypnosis, so I don't want to see it rolled up into another skill, personally. I am going to keep it for my games.
- Soulknife: I am really not sure how to convert this class. This one probably has the most work required to convert it, as it is the least like any other class already out there. Any suggestions are welcome (Honestly, I am more concerned about the psion, as I have one of them in the party I am trying to convert. Likely, when I have more time, I will revisit soulknife. I haven't even checked to see if others have made headway with this class.)
- Wilder: Pretty much in the same boat with Soulknife.
- Psionic Races: Luckily, I have none of them in my campaign that I am converting, so I won't worry about this for right now. I will revisit it when I have time.
I plan to eventually have my own house rules for all psionics. I am interested in what the psionic gurus have to say about my plans thus far. If you have any suggestions, especially about converting the different powers over and about the psion itself, I am very open to suggestions. Thanks to any who take a look.
There is another thread around here somewhere with psionics ideas, but to respond to your points...
I am running a Pathfinder Dark Sun game with a psion and a soulknife in the party.
For the psion I did exactly the things that you are suggesting. I agree that the power points don't need changing - they balance well against the wizard's spells per day. HD should go to d6 and skills should be tweaked as you mention. I also gave them discipline powers like a wizards, but I was lazy and based the discipline powers largely off arcane schools (filling in the gaps with a couple of powers based on cleric domains or just making stuff up).
In addition, I gave the psion bonus powers in the same way that a wizard gets bonus spells. Basically, they can manifest a free power once per day (or more, for 1st-level powers as their manifester level rises )without spending power points (and can augment it with power points as normal). This is a direct port over of the wizard's bonus spells and helps to offset the psion's lack of 0-level powers while keeping the class on an even footing with the wizard.
After seeing the wizard and new psion in play together, I am satisfied that this new version of the psion is balanced. Both classes performed similarly to each other, with neither overshadowing the other. I'll be keeping an eye on how it goes, but so far I am content.
Although there is no psychic warrior in the game (yet) I agree that the class doesn't need tweaking. Basically, the psychic warrior's powers balance well against the fighter's armour and weapon training. In fact, I tend to think that the psychic warrior's 20 powers are maybe a bit more powerful, but offset by the class' lower HD.
As for the soulknife, I am still undecided. I am using the soulknife unchanged at the moment and it seems to be holding its own. The player has never played a soulknife before and is still finding his feet. The class looks balanced on paper against other melee-based classes, but I wonder if it might not run out of steam at higher levels. God feat selection is probably important here. Something to watch, I think...
Oh, and I'd give Psicraft to all psionic classes, just on general principle. I'm folding Concentration in Psicraft like with Spellcraft, so it becomes necessary. Autohypnosis has its own niche, imho, so I am leaving that separate.
I took a look at the other threads and decided that I was looking for something a little different from those attempts. I have created a psion as I hope will be effective. I deviated from the wizard to give the psion a little uniqueness while still keeping close enough to the wizard that the abilities should seem familiar. I have taken a lot of material from other sources, to include the PF Wizard, the Unofficial Psionics Update for Pathfinder by tallforadwarf, and the SRD. Here is what I came up with:
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: The psion’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int). In addition, a psion gains access to additional class skills based on his discipline:
Seer (Clairsentience): A psion who chooses clairsentience is known as a seer. Seers can learn precognitive powers to aid their comrades in combat, as well as powers that permit them to gather information in many different ways. - Appraise (Int)
- Diplomacy (Cha)
- Intimidate (Cha)
- Perception (Wis)
- Sense Motive (Wis)
Shaper (Metacreativity): A psion specializing in metacreativity is known as a shaper. This discipline includes powers that draw ectoplasm or matter from the Astral Plane, creating semisolid and solid items such as armor, weapons, or animated constructs to do battle at the shaper’s command. - Bluff (Cha)
- Disguise (Cha)
- Perform (Cha)
- Use Psionic Device (Cha)
Kineticist (Psychokinesis): Psions who specialize in psychokinesis are known as kineticists. They are the masters of powers that manipulate and transform matter and energy. Kineticists can attack with devastating blasts of energy. - Disable Device (Dex)
- Sleight of Hand (Dex)
- Intimidate (Cha)
Egoist (Psychometabolism): A psion who specializes in psychometabolism is known as an egoist. This discipline consists of powers that alter the psion’s psychobiology, or that of creatures near him. An egoist can both heal and transform himself into a fearsome fighter. - Acrobatics (Dex)
- Autohypnosis (Wis)
- Climb (Str)
- Escape Artist (Dex)
- Heal (Wis)
- Stealth (Dex)
- Swim (Str)
Nomad (Psychoportation): A psion who relies on psychoportation powers is known as a nomad. Nomads can wield powers that propel or displace objects in space or time. - Fly (Dex)
- Ride (Dex)
- Sleight of Hand (Dex)
- Survival (Wis)
- Swim (Str)
Telepath (Telepathy): A psion who chooses the discipline of telepathy is known as a telepath. He is the master of powers that allow mental contact and control of other sentient creatures. A telepath can deceive or destroy the minds of his enemies with ease. - Bluff (Cha)
- Diplomacy (Cha)
- Handle Animal (Cha)
- Intimidate (Cha)
- Sense Motive (Wis)
Skill Points Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Bonus Feats: At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a psion gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat. The psion must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including manifester level minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The psion is not limited to the categories of psionic feats, metapsionic feats, or psionic item creation feats when choosing those feats.
Psionic Talent: Psions are capable of producing minor psionic effects at will. Each day, a psion may attune his mind to three different minor psionic abilities chosen from the following list. Once chosen, the three abilities may be used at will as psi-like abilities.
- Call to Hand
Psychoportation (Teleportation)
One non-magical, non-psionic object on your person materializes in your hand.
- Demoralize, Lesser*
Telepathy (Mind-affecting)
As Demoralize, but duration is 1 round
- Far Strike
Psychokinesis
Telekinetic strike deals 1d3 damage (30' range) (Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing damage, chosen when this power is prepared for the day)
- Finger of Energy
Metacreativity
Deal 1d3 energy damage as ranged touch attack (30' range) (Energy type must be chosen when this power is prepared for the day)
- Mental Hammer
Psychokinesis
Deal 1d3 force damage as ranged touch (30' range)
- Sense Psionics
Clairsentience
As Detect Psionics, but 10' emenation. Only tells if psionics are present, nothing else.
- Verve
Psychometabolism
As Vigor, but only 1 temp hp
*The difficulty class for saving throws against this ability is 10+the Psion's Intelligence modifier.
Discipline Specialization: Psions choose one discipline for their mental focus. Due to their focus, they gain a number of abilities based on the discipline chosen. In addition, each discipline grants the psion a bonus ability.
Clairsentience
Bonus: You can always act in the surprise round, but you are still considered f lat-footed until you take an action.
Specialty Power: Choose one of the following abilities: - Seer’s Fortune (Su): You can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it an enhancement bonus to a single attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw equal to your manifester level. This bonus lasts 3 rounds or until used. You must expend your psionic focus to grant this ability.
- Remote Viewing Adept (Su): You are always aware when you are being observed via psionics, as if you had a permanent Detect Remote Viewing. In addition, beginning at 8th level, whenever you manifest Remote Viewing on a subject, treat the subject as one step more familiar to you. Very familiar subjects get a –10 penalty on their save to avoid your viewing attempts. If you expend your psionic focus when manifesting this power, you do not need a focusing crystal.
- Destiny's Scribe (Su): At key moments (as determined appropriate by the DM), your character is struck by prophecy. The prophecy may take on any form, although some popular choices might be a cryptic phrase, a symbol representing a greater concept, or a mental image. The specificity of the prophecy revealed is completely at the discretion of the DM. This option should only be available in a game for which the DM approves this ability. (Note to DMs: This option is particularly time consuming, as it requires forethought into what Prophecy to reveal and how to describe such obscure information that the player will find it both useful and interesting).
Metacreativity
Bonus: You gain a +2 armor bonus to your Armor Class. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 manifester levels you possess, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
Specialty Power: Choose one of the following abilities: - Ectoplasmic Construction (Su): As a standard action, you can shape a mass of ectoplasmic material targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Choose a weapon damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). The mass deals 1d4 damage of the chosen type +1 for every two manifester levels you possess.
- Sculptor’s Imagination (Su): Any astral constructs you shape gain a +4 enhancement bonus to strength and dexterity. At 8th level this bonus increases to +6.
- Sculptor’s Tools (Su): Fashion up to a total of your intelligence modifier x 10 gold pieces worth of mundane equipment. The Psion can choose to create any mundane weapons, armor or equipment out of raw ectoplasm, in the same manor by which they create Astral Constructs. If a Psion shapes a weapon or piece of armor they are not proficient with, they must succeed at a DC20 appropriate Craft check or the item gains the Broken
condition. Alchemical, magical, and psionic items cannot be made with this ability. Items created in this way only exist for a number of rounds equal to your manifester level before they dissipate. Using this ability is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Psychokinesis
Bonus: Whenever you manifest a psychokinesis power that deals damage, it deals +1 damage. This bonus only applies once to a power, not once per missile or ray. This damage is of the same type as the spell. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 manifester levels you possess, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Specialty Power: Choose one of the following abilities: - Telekinetic Fist (Su): As a standard action, you can strike with a telekinetic fist targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The telekinetic fist deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage +1 for every two manifester levels you possess (this is a supernatural ability and does not benefit from extra damage from the psychokinesis bonus).
- Flow of Energy (Su): As a standard action, you can generate a ray of energy that you can shoot at a target within 30'. Choose an energy type (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic). The ray deals 1d6 damage of the chosen type +1 damage for every two manifester levels you possess (this is a supernatural ability and does not benefit from extra damage from the psychokinesis bonus).
- Energy Absorption (Su): You gain an amount of energy absorption equal to 3 times your Psion level per day. Whenever you take energy damage, apply resistance and immunity first and apply the rest to this absorption, reducing your daily total by that amount. Any damage in excess of your absorption is applied to you normally.
Psychometabolism
Bonus: Expend psionic focus to gain a +2 insight bonus to any skill or ability check. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 manifester levels to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
Specialty Power: Choose one of the following abilities: - Change Shape (Su): You can change your shape for a number of rounds per day equal to your manifester level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This ability otherwise functions as the spells Beast Shape II or Elemental Body I.
- Spurn Sleep (Su): You no longer need to sleep. Once per day, you may spend a power point to regain hit points and ability points as though you had rested for a full eight hours. Even thought the egoist need not sleep, this ability does not grant the egoist the ability to regain power points without eight hours of restful calm.
- Might of the Mind (Su): You can add your manifester level as an enhancement bonus to any physical ability score for a number of rounds per day equal to your manifester level. This bonus only applies on ability checks and skill checks related to the selected ability score. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Psychoportation
Bonus: Gain +10 ft. to all movement speeds you possess.
Specialty Power: Choose one of the following abilities: - Dimensional Hop (Su): By expending your psionic focus, you can teleport up to 5 feet per manifester level as a swift action. Movement via this method of teleportation does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought with you (Large or Larger creatures count double for this computation).
- Float (Su): By expending your psionic focus, your feet float up from the ground for a number of rounds equal to your manifester level. You can float up to 1’ in the air, above any solid or liquid surface. While floating you may take any normal actions, such as attacking, manifesting a power etc. You may float at your normal speed, including any enhancements from race, class, items etc. and take special move actions as normal, e.g. run, charge etc. You cannot float higher than 1’ above the ground with this ability. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function, you can attempt to float by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save this ability works normally. In addition, being used to floating and gliding gives you a +1 bonus to all Fly skill checks +1 per five manifester levels (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
- Summon Object (Su): By expending your psionic focus, you may summon any object within sight to your hand. The object receives a Will saving throw with a DC equal to 10+½ manifester level+the Psion's Charisma modifier to avoid being called. Non-magical, non-psionic, unattended objects receive no saving throw. Held or worn objects receive a bonus to their saving throw equal to the holder's CMB.
Telepathy
Bonus: You have a +2 bonus to saving throws versus mind-affecting powers. This bonus increases by +1 for every five manifester levels to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
Specialty Power: Choose one of the following abilities: - Dazing Touch (Su): By expending your psionic focus, you can cause a living creature to become dazed as a melee touch attack. This ability has no effect on creatures of a higher level or with more Hit Dice than your manifester level. The target receives a Will saving throw against this power with a DC equal to 10+½ manifester level+Charisma modifier to resist.
- Aura of Despair (Su): Expend your psionic focus to emit an aura of despair out to a range of 5 ft. per two manifester levels for a number of rounds equal to your manifester level. Enemies within this aura take a –1 penalty on attack rolls and will saves versus fear effects. At 8th level, this penalty becomes -2 and applies to all ability checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
- Protect the Mind (Su): By expending your psionic focus, you gain Power Resistance 10+your manifester level versus Mind-affecting powers for a number of rounds equal to your manifester level.
Discipline Power: Choose an ability from the following list. Each ability may be selected multiple times unless noted otherwise.
- Free manifest: Choose a power you know within your chosen discipline. You may manifest that power once per day without paying any power points. You may augment the power as normal, but when doing so, you are treated as though you did expend power points as normal. Example: Your manifester level is seven. You manifest a power with a cost of three power points for free. You may not spend more than four power points to augment the power, even though the total cost would only appear to be four.
- Sudden metapsionics: Choose a metapsionic feat you possess. Once per day, you may augment a power within your discipline with the chosen metapsionic feat without expending any additional power points or your psionic focus.
- Free metapsionics: Choose a metapsionic feat you possess and a power you know within your discipline. Whenever you manifest that power, you may choose to expend your psionic focus. If you do, it gains the metapsionic feat you chose at no additional cost.
- Increased manifester level: Your manifester level is one higher while manifesting powers in your chosen discipline. This ability increases all effects that depend on manifester level as well as increases the number of power points you may spend on augmentation. This ability may be selected only once.
Discipline Mastery: At 20th level, the psion masters his discipline, gaining the relevant ability:
- Clairsentience - Near Omniscience (Su): You are never surprised and cannot be caught f lat-footed. You gain remote viewing as a psi-like ability usable at will, subjects get a –10 penalty on their save, regardless of how familiar they are to you. You can even use this ability to view areas protected from remote viewing, although the subjects get a +5 bonus on their save to resist.
- Metacreativity - Master Sculptor (Su): Once per day, you can manifest astral construct, extending its duration to 1 day. The construct summoned in this way has maximum hit points and you may select one additional Menu B or two additional Menu A abilities to add to the construct.
- Psychokinesis - Master of Manipulation (Su): You can use the Craft, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand skills at a distance of up to 30 feet away. Additionally, you can use weapons at the same distance. You add your Intelligence bonus to attack and damage instead Strength or Dexterity. This requires a great deal of concentration, increasing the time necessary to complete each task. All skill DCs increase by 5 and all attacks are made at a -5 penalty. Additionally, the amount of time needed for each task increases by one step (a swift action uses a move action, a move action uses a standard, a standard action uses a full round, and durations longer than standard are simply doubled--example: disabling a tricky device usually requires 1d4 rounds. Performing this task at a distance requires 2d4 rounds.).
- Psychometabolism - Fluid Form (Su): As a swift action, you gain one of the following abilities: blindsense with a range of 30 feet, burrow with a speed of 30 feet, climb with a speed of 60 feet, darkvision with a range of 120 feet, f ly with a speed of 120 feet, gaseous form, or swim with a speed of 60 feet. You can only have one of these abilities at any one time, but you can change the ability as often as you like.
- Psychoportation - Wherever I May Roam (Su): Gain Greater Psionic Teleport as a psi-like ability, usable at will.
- Telepathy - Legendary Charm (Su): You can manifest psionic dominate 1/day with a duration of permanent and a target of any living creature. You can only have one such creature in your service at a time. If you cast this spell again, the first creature is immediately released.
N S wrote: the Unofficial Psionics Update for Pathfinder by tallforadwarf I'm flattered you thought it good enough to 'alf inch! ;D Good work here, nice to see some more psionic love going on.
Peace,
tfad
I've played soulknife a cpuple times, so I adapted in this way:
B.A.B = good
saves: fort=poor; ref=good; will=good
take out the weapon focus and the greater weapon focus.
4 skill ranks per level(leave or consolidate the skill it have)
and change any aplication atained to bab
NS, this looks really, really good! I like the talents, you came up with! Paizo should definitly save this thread for reference when they're attempting to Paizo-fy psionics.
tallforadwarf wrote: N S wrote: the Unofficial Psionics Update for Pathfinder by tallforadwarf I'm flattered you thought it good enough to 'alf inch! ;D Good work here, nice to see some more psionic love going on.
Peace,
tfad Of course! Yours is the definitive work on psionics! I’m just modifying to add my own flavor! :D
Jhonn007 wrote: I've played soulknife a cpuple times, so I adapted in this way:
B.A.B = good
saves: fort=poor; ref=good; will=good
take out the weapon focus and the greater weapon focus.
4 skill ranks per level(leave or consolidate the skill it have)
and change any aplication atained to bab
Definitely a good start, thank you! I have never tried a soulknife myself, so I am not particularly certain I will even make I conversion. I will likely use tallforadwarf’s conversion from his Unofficial Psionics Update for Pathfinder, at least until I see one in action, and then I can make a more educated determination if I want to modify it at all.
Absinth wrote: NS, this looks really, really good! I like the talents, you came up with! Paizo should definitly save this thread for reference when they're attempting to Paizo-fy psionics. Thanks! Call to Hand is my favorite. Not particularly powerful, as it takes a standard action to manifest a psi-like ability and usually only a move action to actually draw an object that is already on your person, but still, just the flavor of having something appear in your hand really appeals to me :D
Next up, psychic warrior! tallforadwarf's version is probably excellent if you are not using a base fighter, but with the base fighter, I am reluctant to have a class that does everything that the fighter does, but does it better (with the exception, of course, for fighter-only feats). On the other hand, it seems more balanced with the other classes, so I get the feeling that even with additional benefit from armor and weapons, the PF fighter is still a bit weak.
Anyway, I'm looking to modify the psychic warrior with unique ability selection based on the idea that is supposed to be the basis of the class... merging mind with body. The base fighter focuses on special training to increase martial ability, but I want to try to create a martial class that represents a warrior who trains his mind to control his body. I see the psychic warrior as the center of the trifecta of fighter, monk, and psion. It already possesses the feats of the fighter and the powers of a psionic user. Now, all it needs are the supernatural capabilities from monk to guide its path. Of course, these supernatural abilities should not overlap, but add their own unique flavor. More to come on the specifics for this!
I'd look to the monk when attempting the soulblade. Of course, I don't know how it'll turn out, but putting monk into the fighter/psion mix feels like a little too much. Anyway, I'm curious what you'll come up with! I already printed out the psion and will use it, when one of my players demands to play a psionic character in PFRPG. Sadly, as we rolled up PCs for our current campaign in summer, I didn't accept psionic characters because they seemed weak compared to the "new" base classes. One of the players wanted to generate a psion. Well, he put mental training into his backstory, so it might be an option for multi-classing when they level up next time.
N S wrote: Of course! Yours is the definitive work on psionics! I’m just modifying to add my own flavor! :D Wow - thanks. I'd say "first" instead of "definitive". My group and I are all die hard psionics fans, so a lot of our playtest feedback was on something that was never going to be in the Pathfinder book. So, I collected my notes and we playtested some more. It was worth it - over 500 downloads and plenty of positive comments! Makes me *glow*!
N S wrote: Next up, psychic warrior! tallforadwarf's version is probably excellent if you are not using a base fighter, but with the base fighter, I am reluctant to have a class that does everything that the fighter does, but does it better (with the exception, of course, for fighter-only feats). On the other hand, it seems more balanced with the other classes, so I get the feeling that even with additional benefit from armor and weapons, the PF fighter is still a bit weak. The psychic warrior is the most tested class out of the core psionics stuff, for our group. It doesn't seem like much on paper, but the difference of
1) 3/4 BAB
2) D8 HD
3) PPP limits
really make a difference to how the psychic warrior and the fighter stand up next to each other. The psychic warrior can only keep up with the fighter as long as he has PPP. If he uses more power points than he needs to, he can eclipse the fighter with ease, but the cost of doing so is being able to keep up with the fighter for an even shorter length of time. +5 to hit over 20 levels is a fair amount - it's the difference between the fighter and the rogue (the cleric having numerous spells to help out in the manor of PPP).
One problem I know some groups encounter when using psionics is that the DM lets the players use psionics, but then they never add any psionic related challenges. To balance the classes properly, they need to be integrated into the *world*. This means psionic monsters and diseases too. There should be power-point-stealing-ghosts! A blue in every goblin tribe! And so on.... Things that remind the players that you've welcomed psionics into the game - that the PC is not the only psychic creature on the planet!
While this doesn't unbalance the game, it does unbalance perceptions. The non-psionic players (which in our group, this usually means the sorcerer and the paladin) will feel that the psionic character is special, just because there is nothing to steal his spell slots, be immune to his sneak attacks and be beyond the realm of his knowledge skill checks. So, back to the psychic warrior - if the class is used next to the regular fighter, make sure to every once in a while have an attack before the psychic warrior has restored his PPP or have some nasty creature that feeds off of his PPP. Anything to make him scared and let the "real man" step up to the plate and show him how it's done in mundanesville.
The only really "dangerous" psychic warrior build, is the one who takes psionic body for their first feat, then nothing but psionic talent over and over and over again. This creates a monster with more HP and PPP than is sane.
That's it from me for now - I've spent all my PPP and am going out for steak. I'll check up on this thread again later. :D Thanks for the psionic discussion.
Peace,
tfad
tallforadwarf wrote: The psychic warrior is the most tested class out of the core psionics stuff, for our group. It doesn't seem like much on paper, but the difference of
1) 3/4 BAB
2) D8 HD
3) PPP limits
really make a difference to how the psychic warrior and the fighter stand up next to each other. The psychic warrior can only keep up with the fighter as long as he has PPP. If he uses more power points than he needs to, he can eclipse the fighter with ease, but the cost of doing so is being able to keep up with the fighter for an even shorter length of time. +5 to hit over 20 levels is a fair amount - it's the difference between the fighter and the rogue (the cleric having numerous spells to help out in the manor of PPP).
One problem I know some groups encounter when using psionics is that the DM lets the players use psionics, but then they never add any psionic related challenges. To balance the classes properly, they need to be integrated into the *world*. This means psionic monsters and diseases too. There should be power-point-stealing-ghosts! A blue in every goblin tribe!...
Very cool! Even still, it is not the balance issue that I was interested in changing, but more the flavor. I am looking into different options, still undecided which direction to go:
1. Grant supernatural abilities, similar to how a monk gains supernatural abilities, but alter the flavor to give uniqueness. Currently, all abilities are extraordinary (from feats) or psionic (from powers).
2. Grant Mantles to the psychic warrior (from Complete Psion). These allow the psychic warrior to choose a path to follow, indicating how he trains his body and mind to act in unison.
3. Similar to the Mantles idea, break down a psychic warrior based on how he trains. Offer various training disciplines which grant different chains of abilities, similar to talents from D20 Modern.
Anyway, I'm still looking into how I want to build this. The 3.5 psychic warrior was left with many open levels, so I shouldn't have much trouble filling in the holes. Mostly, I feel that the psychic warrior in its 3.5 incarnation is nearly balanced with PF already (I run an Eberron game with lots of magic and psionics. The psionic characters do feel the effects of psionic maladies and enemies, as well as sorcerous ones. There are psionic items and challenges available, as well.) The base psychic warrior has been standing up well with the rest of the party, although lacks the flavor that PF has added to the rest of the classes. That is the main reason for my desire to redesign.
N S wrote: Very cool! Even still, it is not the balance issue that I was interested in changing, but more the flavor. I am looking into different options, still undecided which direction to go: Fair enough, there are a couple of classes like this. There are several directions you can go with them. I was aiming for backwards compatibility when I wrote the 'Umofficial Update'. If that was not a concern, I'd done a *lot* more. The Soul Knife would've got a lot more of an overhaul for a start.
Now I see what you're going for, as in different flavor, perhaps I can say something a little more *on topic*. Sorry!
The psychic stuff HERE could be just what you're looking for. It feels very different from the current psionic stuff but still very "psionicy". I have to admit to having not playtested it yet, but I think a warrior progression should be reasonably easy to come up with and it looks okay on the balance front.
Another suggestion I have, would be to focus on some of the stuff HERE . The updates the SK and Wilder aren't enough (IMNSHO), but the other stuff is good. There are a number of new 'mantra' feats. This mechanic could be stolen and applied to a bunch of different things to make the psychic warrior much more individual. It'd make for something like a regular fighter with a butt-load of psionic feats.
Finally, I can comment on the Complete Psionic. Man, this book is hit and miss. The ardent works okay with D8 HD, as is. It'd be a little behind the Pathfinder powered core classes, so maybe toss them a couple of bonus feats, better proficiencies or an additional mantle over 20 levels, but it is a lot stronger than it looks on paper. I do like this class.
The divine mind is okay, but it needs full BAB to work where it was intended. But just adding it gives the class a little too much - somewhat balanced by the massive need for a million* different attributes at moderate to high levels. My advice would be loot and scuttle this class. Take as much as you want for your psychic warrior and don't look back. The auras work out quite nicely, but I think that it shows that the ardent and the divine mind used to be one class that got split into two because otherwise the book wasn't long enough.
I have similar feelings about the lurk - I don't like the class as it is presented. It's inferior to the psychic rogue that WotC put out as a web enhancement, which is a feat in itself! Take it and loot it for your psychic warrior. It might seem like a strange choice, but the way that the lurk's sneak attacks can be powered up could be translated to regular attacks and used to make a "charge-me-up-and-point-me-towards-the enemy" style psychic warrior. Which could be a lot of fun - I know I'd give it a go.
This isn't the place for to gush about the erudite!
There could be some good stuff in D20 modern, but I'm not all that familiar with it. I've only played in a single D20 modern game and I only bought one book - the map book for Christopher West's amazingly useful maps. Man, that dude should get more work. Anyway, if it's good - steal it!
That really is one of the joys of the D20 system.
Go for it and post your new version here when you're done.
Peace,
tfad
* This is an exaggeration.
[moved to Pathfinder RPG forum]
Ok, here is my initial investment into the Psychic Warrior class. The class favors chaos to law, so I figure, they don't like to follow all of the rules. They probably like adaptability over steadfast abilities. Rather than knowing exactly what their capabilities are, I decided they should be selectable on a day-to-day, or even round-to-round basis. This makes the psychic warrior very much like the one proposed by tallforadwarf, except with a great deal more versatility at the expense of power point usage.
Psychic Warrior
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Autohypnosis (Wis), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Psicraft (Int), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Psychic warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
Power Points/Day
A psychic warrior’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available. His base daily allotment of power points is given on the previous table. In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Wisdom score. His race may also provide bonus power points per day, as may certain feats and items. A 1st-level psychic warrior gains no power points for his class level, but he gains bonus power points (if he is entitled to any), and can manifest the single power or activate any feat he knows with those power points.
Powers Known
A psychic warrior begins play knowing one psychic warrior power of your choice. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of a new power.
Choose the powers known from the psychic warrior power list. (Exception: The feats Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge do allow a psychic warrior to learn powers from the lists of other classes.) A psychic warrior can manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level.
The total number of powers a psychic warrior can manifest in a day is limited only by his daily power points.
A psychic warrior simply knows his powers; they are ingrained in his mind. He does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spellcasters prepare their spells), though he must get a good night’s sleep each day to regain all his spent power points.
The Difficulty Class for saving throws against psychic warrior powers is 10 + the power’s level + the psychic warrior’s Wisdom modifier.
Maximum Power Level Known
A psychic warrior begins play with the ability to learn 1st-level powers. As he attains higher levels, he may gain the ability to master more complex powers.
To learn or manifest a power, a psychic warrior must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the power’s level.
Feat Options
At 1st level, a psychic warrior gets two bonus combat-oriented feats in addition to the feat that any 1st level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The psychic warrior gains an additional two bonus feats every level thereafter. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats or psionic feats. The psychic warrior must still meet all prerequisites for the bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums as well as class requirements. A psychic warrior cannot choose feats that specifically require levels in the fighter class unless he is a multiclass character with the requisite levels in the fighter class.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gains every three levels. A psychic warrior is not limited to fighter bonus feats and psionic feats when choosing these other feats.
Unlike most feats, however, the selected bonus feats are not active for the psychic warrior. Each day at the time that the psychic warrior would be regaining power points (whether he is regaining them or not), the psychic warrior may choose to activate a number of feats up to his psychic warrior level. Each feat so activated expends one power point and lasts for 24 hours. Some feat slots may be left open, however. If they are not activated at the beginning of the day, they may only be activated for one round per level at the expense of a power point, and never can the psychic warrior have more bonus feats active than he has levels in this class. Activating the feat any time other than during power point regeneration is an immediate action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Example: Taryn takes his first level of psychic warrior and chooses the feats Speed of Thought and Dodge as his bonus feats. At the beginning of the day, he may make a choice to activate one feat or the other. Should he choose not to activate either feat, later during the day, he may spend an immediate action to activate one of the feats for a duration of one round (because he is first level). So, if an enemy is targeting him with an attack, before the attack is rolled, Taryn may opt to expend a power point to gain the benefits of the Dodge feat. Alternatively, if a comrade has fallen a bit out of his movement range, he may rush to the comrade’s aid with Speed of Thought.
Additionally, in place of the two feat selections for a level, a psychic warrior may select to gain a fighter’s armor training, weapon training, armor mastery, or weapon mastery. The prerequisites for this are that the psychic warrior must be at a level equal to or greater than the fighter in order to gain one of these abilities, and for the masteries, he must have all of the previous trainings. For instance, a 3rd level psychic warrior could gain Armor Training, but not Weapon Training. An 11th level psychic warrior could have gained Armor Training a maximum of three times and Weapon Training a maximum of twice. And a 20th level psychic warrior could only have Armor Mastery or Weapon Mastery if he had all four of the preceding Training abilities first.
Choosing one of these abilities counts as both feat choices for the level. If chosen, these abilities are always active and do not require any power point expenditure. They do, however, limit the number of feats that can be active for the psychic warrior. A psychic warrior may spend a power point to deactivate one of these abilities and another to activate a different feat in its stead. He may opt to do this at the beginning of the day, as per usual, or as a free action as part of the immediate action used to gain the benefit of the new feat. If the ability is dropped during the day, it remains suppressed for a number of rounds equal to the character's psychic warrior level.
Neil Spalter wrote: Ok, here is my initial investment into the Psychic Warrior class. Wow - just happened to be online the moment you posted you this!
It looks okay, although I'm not sure why you single out chaos/chaotic natures in your introduction to the class. The alignment is still "any" (as I think it should be for any class that has straight combat abilities), and they get no special powers based on their alignment.
Mechanically, I've never seen anything like this in play before, so I have no idea how it will play out. Please post any playtest reports you have! I'm keen to see it in action and am not going to get a chance to test it myself, anytime soon. Although I'd love to.
My initial thoughts, although again, I've not played this class, would be to make the following changes.
1) Do not charge them the activate a feat as a standard action. Only charge the psychic warrior if they do it faster. Say 4 points as a swift action (so for lvl 4 and up), and 8 points as an immediate action (so for lvl 8 and up). The immediate action would be very useful and a lot of fun - dodge! It could work well with power attack also - a one round boost without the penalty to the first attack, but still on iterative attacks and AoOs.
2) In order to have X number of feats activated, they must have a power point reserve of at least 1/2 of X. So 10 feats equals at least 5 points in your power pool. Drop below that and you have to make choices about which feat benefits to lose. This would help to balance *all* the options and give the psychic warrior some meaningful decisions about what to use and when. Currently they can blast away all their PPP with little consequence. Which means your class will pretty much identically to the current psychic warrior, only with a few more feats on the go at once.
3) There are certain feats that there should be a limit to selecting, or clarifications to the rules. E.g. Psionic Talent, Psicrystal and Psionic Body.
4) Two good saves? That's probably too much with the new goodies. Go back to just one - perhaps let the player choose Fort. or Will.
5) Psionic Focus! This is a great mechanic and you could use it here. Perhaps (continuing my stated 4th/8th.... progression for point 1) let the psychic warrior activate a feat by expending their psionic focus at 12th level onwards. This could be a lot of fun when you're crystal's holding a focus for you too! Although, perhaps more useful at lower levels, it might work out better at 12th since spending and regaining your focus is free, other than the time/actions it takes. Meaning with a little preparation, your psychic warrior can create some truly nasty combos.
Just some random thoughts, straight out of my head. Thanks for posting, looking forward to hearing some of your ideas and any 'designer's notes' you care to share!
Peace,
tfad
tallforadwarf wrote: It looks okay, although I'm not sure why you single out chaos/chaotic natures in your introduction to the class. The alignment is still "any" (as I think it should be for any class that has straight combat abilities), and they get no special powers based on their alignment. Lol, actually, I got that part from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (which is where I am developing my flavor for the classes from). I was not trying to indicate that they get any alignment-based power, but their tendency is listed as being towards chaos over law, so I figured the feel of the class should be versitile as opposed to structured. The specific text from the XPH:
"A psychic warrior's training requires the ability to give equal shrift to what others consider polar opposites of physical and mental ability. Phychic warriors tend toward chaotic alignments, but a chaotic outlook is not a requirement."
Additionally:
"A psychic warrior typically grows up among a society or small community of "the like-minded," founded by psions who wished to develop their powers in seclusion. Such communes are rare, but their existence provides some protection in a world often hostile to those with powerful mental abilities. Psychic warriors are often the children of psions, and just as often grow up dissatisfied with the regimen of commune life.
Although many adopt the class out of this sense of rebellion, most psychic warriors still feel a deep connection to the commune or society in which they were raised and trained. A few have no such connection, their only ties being to their own paths of personal development."
From those two blocks, I decided to focus on versatility.
As far as the saves, that was a big oops! I copied the psion stats and made adjustments. I was trying to set it up where only their fort save was good. I completely forgot to remove the good will save :P.
I do like the additional methods of activating feats. However, as it stands, this psychic warrior is actually weaker than your version, although possesses a great deal more versatility of feats. I already limited the number of bonus feats that can be active to the psychic warrior level. If the psychic warrior chooses the fighter armor and weapon trainings and masteries, he is going to be getting the exact same benefits as your psychic warrior, only he must expend power points to activate his feats whereas your psychic warrior has them constantly active with their full power point pool. A first level psychic warrior from my build is going to have to use one of his power points (he starts with zero) to activate a bonus feat each day. He cannot activate more than one feat until second level when he may activate up to two. This means that the psychic warrior must have more than one power point to be capable of using any powers for the day at first level. This may be too large of an impediment for a low-level character, so the idea of activating the bonus feat by expending the psionic focus may be a possibility (although feats that require a psionic focus, or its expenditure, may be useless for these purposes).
I'll play around with your other ideas, though, as they seem really interesting. But still, I think that this version of the psychic warrior is going to be fighting to try to match your psychic warrior in power. I'll see if I can play test it sometime soon.
Neil Spalter wrote: Lol, actually, I got that part from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (which is where I am developing my flavor for the classes from). Ah, yes. I never liked that. It really felt, to me, that someone was told to write something for that section of the book and it didn't matter what. I mean, they (psychic warriors) have to have the same dedication that fighters and psions do. That says law over chaos to me. Maybe if they had a 6-level progression over 20 that looked more like the Wilder, I'd buy it. Ah well - I know that book so well, it's been a while since I read all those little bits.
Neil Spalter wrote: I do like the additional methods of activating feats. However, as it stands.... I understand what you're saying. It's worth remembering though that flexibility is worth a *lot*. The difference in spells per day between the sorcerer and wizard nicely illustrates how much the original designers thought flexibility was worth. While there are a lot less feats than spells, I believe that the same idea is still valid.
Look at the difference at 2rd level: Power Attack, Weapon Focus, switch to Dodge and Expertise. Switching in and out with Psionic Meditation and Speed of Thought is a good example too - neither of these are feats that a psychic warrior needs all the time. The flexibility of not being tied to these until needed is quite powerful.
I can see your version isn't as powerful, and that somewhat worries me. The psychic warrior is, IMHO, the best balanced class in 3.X. When my group and I were updating it, we chose to keep as close to Pathfinder as possible, in an attempt to retain this balance. If something looks less powerful than it was, and previously it was about right, it's going to be natural to try to give a little boost and put it back where it was.
Another reason for suggesting those little boosts was in line with the Pathfinder goal of making sticking to a class through 20 levels a good option. Something to work towards. According to the Pathfinder mentality, new spells and powers don't count towards this (although I about 60% disagree with this). It'd be nice for the psychic warrior to get something for sticking with it, like the regular fighter.
Like I said though, this was all top of my head stuff. I'm not going to get a chance to playtest it, so I can't go much further than my gut.
Please do post to let us know how it goes!
Peace,
tfad
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