Honestly, can we get rid of the Dragon Disciple? I've always hated this class, for the same reason I'm glad to see the Archmage go. An archmage is "A really powerful Wizard", which seems counter intuitive to being a 20th level wizard. A Dragon Disciple is a "Really Draconic Spellcaster", which seems incredibly pointless to me. One could just play a high level Dragon bloodline sorcerer. Right now, when you ask what the difference is between a sorc/DD and a sorc20, it seems you'd have to say "Ummm...the DD is really into it!"
Jason said earlier that he intends for bloodlines to play a stronger role in the game, which will essentially mean this class is going to get more and more obsolete in favor of just being a high level dragon-bloodline sorcerer. Can we maybe trade the pagespace for something that is conceptually different?
That's why I suggest a distinction between dragon bloodline and dragon disciple abilities. If the bloodline is all about dragon-related spell enhancements, and the disciple is all about dragon-related physical transformations, straight sorcerers and dragon disciple have distinct niches.
I agree. If we MUST have it, then it needs to be different (that being said, I prefer we get Dwarven Defender or more spells or something).
Honestly, can we get rid of the Dragon Disciple? I've always hated this class, for the same reason I'm glad to see the Archmage go. An archmage is "A really powerful Wizard", which seems counter intuitive to being a 20th level wizard. A Dragon Disciple is a "Really Draconic Spellcaster", which seems incredibly pointless to me.
Well, that's not what it used to be. It used to be "a melee fighter transforming into a half-dragon". But now Jason has added a bunch of caster levels and removed the half-dragon part which is indeed causing some overlap with the draconic sorcerer.
I like the idea of transforming into a different creature, though. YMMV.
Director of Game Design
|
The class is going to stay... as our list is pretty much locked in right now due to art choices.
I am all for discussing some work on the dragon disciple, but this thread needs a better title if that is going to be its focus. I will adjust the title.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
Hmm part of the problem is in the Prc name. Not much to work with if it has to be something dragon based. Perhaps something like Bloodline disciple? where depending on what bloodline you are affects what abilities you get. As for bards simply a small note saying that for the purposes of this class they can choose either the draconic, or destined abilities?
Actually, I'm not sure what is wrong with the class. It gives a nice advancement for people who want to be martial casters. It's a huge improvement over the previous incarnation of the class. About the biggest concern I have is the oddball d12 HD. I would rather see a more reasonable d10 and full BAB instead of the d12 with 3/4BAB.
I would like to poke around with it and see how it compares to Eldritch Knight at mid-higher levels.
Personally I think it should be more melee focused than it is.
Maybe trim back a few caster levels and give it some better claws, or even rake attacks and maybe even pounce? Limited flight should be possible earlier in the level, such as rounds equal to con modifier. I can see a barbarian taking 1 level into sorcerer and then going into this PrC. They would get the bit attack as their 1st or 2nd rage power and strength surge as their the other and having a blast.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
If this is a Dragon Disciple and not just a Dragon Warrior, then I would like to see it have an ability analogous to channel energy that works specifically versus dragons. Perhaps something like this:
I could almost see a healing/damaging ability like the other feature of channel energy, tapping into the essential ancient magic that powers dragons, and as the character is a disciple of dragons it kinda makes sense that he's have powers that could give them direct aid and comfort, but I'm not sure we want to go the arcane healing route here. It's an idea...
Ok, honestly, I don't see the point of making this a caster class. At the time the Dragon Disciple was created, there were no such thing as bloodlines (which, honestly, I think have taken the sorcerer from 'blah' to interesting), so the need for a Draconic Sorcerer was there (given the Dragon fluff in the class description).
Now, however, with bloodlines becoming more and more important to sorcerers, making this a caster PRC seems a bit unnecessary. Again, it's like the archmage. "Dragon Caster" is already a part of the core Sorcerer class. As it currently exists, this class is almost the equivalent of saying "I'm a Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer, but I'm like...really into it". It's redundant.
Instead of going in this direction, why not remove the caster element? Right now, aside from some really bad stuff that was put out in sub-par 3.5 supplements, there's not much for a ranger, monk, fighter, barbarian, etc. who is interested in doing something like the Dragon disciple. It might be cool to see a noncasting class that slowly introduces the half-dragon template. And, in terms of art, the DD pic actually looks more like a monk to me than it does a sorcerer. For capstone, rather than the 'form of the dragon' ability, why not provide a wild-shape-like ability that lasts for several hours, but has stricter limitations, such as med-only dragons? I know this is a major divergence from the current DD, but it's not so far off from the DMG DD.
What do you guys think? Does this need to be a Sorcerer Class?
|
|
I think that it's an awesome prestige. The problem is, it's too awesome. I can't see any draconic sorcerer in his or her right mind NOT taking it.
And when you have a prestige class that 99% of draconic sorcerers will want...something is wrong. The idea behind powering up the base classes was making it so that the decision between taking a prestige or going full base class was an even one, a difficult one to make. In this case, it's a no brainer. Why *wouldn't* you take it?
I think that it's an awesome prestige. The problem is, it's too awesome. I can't see any draconic sorcerer in his or her right mind NOT taking it.
And when you have a prestige class that 99% of draconic sorcerers will want...something is wrong. The idea behind powering up the base classes was making it so that the decision between taking a prestige or going full base class was an even one, a difficult one to make. In this case, it's a no brainer. Why *wouldn't* you take it?
I agree, they need to cut down on some of the caster levels, give a better base attack, and give a con bonus like the old PrC.
I agree, they need to cut down on some of the caster levels, give a better base attack, and give a con bonus like the old PrC.
There's a Con bonus at level 6, same as before.
I think that it's an awesome prestige. The problem is, it's too awesome. I can't see any draconic sorcerer in his or her right mind NOT taking it.
And when you have a prestige class that 99% of draconic sorcerers will want...something is wrong. The idea behind powering up the base classes was making it so that the decision between taking a prestige or going full base class was an even one, a difficult one to make. In this case, it's a no brainer. Why *wouldn't* you take it?
I don't get this. The loss of 3 levels of casting is a huge downside. If a sorcerer wants to continue as a hybrid caster/ martial class then he will stick with Dragon Discipline. If the sorcerer wants to be a kick butt spellcaster he will not. Are you suggesting that 99% of sorcerers are interested in melee?
Compare this class to the Eldritch Knight. EK only loses 2 caster levels and has FULL BAB. Further the Knight is more likely to be based on the wizard so he's going to have higher level spells than the Dragon Discipline as well. Eldritch Knight also has more flexibility with weapons because of the level of Fighter.
The Dragon Discipline is going to have a higher strength than the Knight and eventually a higher CON. The Disciple also has a higher Natural Armor Bonus and better saves. Overall I think the two classes are about equal with the Knight being a little stronger offensively.
|
|
I wasn't necessarily implying that the whole ten levels is a must have, but it is pretty hard to turn down the first four at least. Only one lost level of casting in exchange for Str +4, Natural Armor +2, Blood of Dragons (just picks his type), a bonus Bloodline Feat, and a breath weapon.
All that, for just one lost level of casting.
I'd hit it.
I wasn't necessarily implying that the whole ten levels is a must have, but it is pretty hard to turn down the first four at least. Only one lost level of casting in exchange for Str +4, Natural Armor +2, Blood of Dragons (just picks his type), a bonus Bloodline Feat, and a breath weapon.
- Str +4 -- who cares, unless you're a melee fighter
- Natural armor +2 -- not bad
- Blood of dragons -- the draconic sorcerer gets this anyways
- Bonus bloodline feat -- you get this a little bit earlier than your usual sorcerer bloodline feat
- Breath weapon -- you get this a little bit earlier than with the sorcerer
So you lose a spellcasting level, and in exchange you get some natural armor and some stuff you would get eventually anyways, plus some better HP & BAB. That hardly seems like a "no-brainer" to me.
Don't forget the D12 hit dice and the good fort save (and good will save).
Sure, you get a couple of the things anyways, but to get them earlier, along with +2 nat armor, +2 str, d12 hit dice, and a higher fort...for one casting level. It's hard to turn away.
If you don't plan on being a melee character the value of that stuff is questionable...
- +2 Nat Armor is nice for anyone but not as important if you are staying out of combat and not so great that you won't still need mirror image or invisibility.
- +2 Fortitude save is equivalent to a feat.
- +2 STR - If you are a primary caster STR is a dump stat
- d12 HD = an average of 6.5 HP versus 3.5 for sorcerer or 12 HP. This is reduced to 8 HP with favored class sorcerer.
I think 1 level of DD is a no-brainer right now and wouldn't mind seeing the lost levels moved to 1st level, 4th level, and 7th. That would make the class much tougher to dip but preserve much of it's appeal for the appropriate people.
The 4 level dip you suggest? I think that's a tougher sell if you are planning on being a primary caster. Keep in mind the Sorcerer is already behind the wizard in spell progression this puts him a full spell level behind the wizard in pretty much sealing his fate as a secondary caster. Going for more than 4 levels you might as well stick it out because you are definitely a secondary caster now.
|
|
I may still be upset about the choice to keep the sorcerer's casting progression one lower than every other caster in the game, but I think wanting to use a sorcerer as a primary caster is just wishful thinking.
Though again, this is all about why this is a no brainer for a Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer to take this prestige class. As it is with the four-level dip, they lose one level of casting, gain a few things earlier, gain a couple things they wouldn't get at all (the higher hit dice and fort)...A one level dip is an absolute no brainer like you said, though I still think the four level dip is also pretty hard to turn down.
Remember, melee and str are likely at least somewhat important if you've already made the decision to go for the Dragon bloodline. Their 1st level ability IS two claw attacks after all.
I may still be upset about the choice to keep the sorcerer's casting progression one lower than every other caster in the game, but I think wanting to use a sorcerer as a primary caster is just wishful thinking.
Though again, this is all about why this is a no brainer for a Dragon-Blooded Sorcerer to take this prestige class. As it is with the four-level dip, they lose one level of casting, gain a few things earlier, gain a couple things they wouldn't get at all (the higher hit dice and fort)...A one level dip is an absolute no brainer like you said, though I still think the four level dip is also pretty hard to turn down.
Remember, melee and str are likely at least somewhat important if you've already made the decision to go for the Dragon bloodline. Their 1st level ability IS two claw attacks after all.
Seems to me that you are just dumping on the sorcerer and not talking about the Dragon Disciple at all.
The more important question here is does the class have an appropriate power level compared to other comparable classes in the game? I think it compares reasonably well to the Eldritch Knight. Both classes seem to have a decent mix of martial and casting. Both classes are somewhere in the middle of the road as far as total class power goes.
|
|
I did dump on him in the first sentence. The rest was a valid point. I'm glad you were able to see that.
Again, the problem is not if it is a comparable prestige class with other prestiges. The problem is why a sorcerer already invested in the dragon bloodline would not take it. As I mentioned above, a dragon bloodline sorcerer is already likely built with melee in mind (being as their first ability is claw attacks). To get some of their dragon bloodline abilities earlier (including a possible extra feat, since they could still get three from the sorcerer class), the higher hit points and fort save, and the bonus to str all in exchange for a single casting level seems to be a great choice. Like you even pointed out, a single level dip is already a no brainer.
The problem is not whether or not the prestige is 'balanced' with others. It's whether or not a player, when wondering if he should take it, goes 'hmmm. This class has good stuff, and this one does too...this is hard, mechanically, I'll go with whichever I like better thematically." In this case, the theme is barely changed. You get a little better dragon abilities earlier in exchange for a little less casting. Mechanically though, a 1 level dip is an obvious choice, and a 4 level dip is a pretty near obvious choice as well. Unless you really really want that full spellcasting progression as a sorcerer.
I have to grudgingly admit that the Dragon Disciple looks pretty balanced to continuing in Sorcerer to me (and I wretchedly hate the class).
Most Draconic Sorcerers probably *will* take this class, just for coolness sake, but that's okay. "Draconic Sorcerers" are a pretty small subsection of characters to begin with.
Edit: Oh, and keep Bards able to take it. Wouldn't want people whining about Deekin.
Hmmm I would really like your type to change to Dragon somewhere alone the way. The longer lifespan is a big plus for long term games and it great for role playing fluff!
Again, the problem is not if it is a comparable prestige class with other prestiges. The problem is why a sorcerer already invested in the dragon bloodline would not take it. As I mentioned above, a dragon bloodline sorcerer is already likely built with melee in mind (being as their first ability is claw attacks). To get some of their dragon bloodline abilities earlier (including a possible extra feat, since they could still get three from the sorcerer class), the higher hit points and fort save, and the bonus to str all in exchange for a single casting level seems to be a great choice. Like you even pointed out, a single level dip is already a no brainer.
The problem is not whether or not the prestige is 'balanced' with others. It's whether or not a player, when wondering if he should take it, goes 'hmmm. This class has good stuff, and this one does too...this is hard, mechanically, I'll go with whichever I like better thematically." In this case, the theme is barely changed. You get a little better dragon abilities earlier in exchange for a little less casting. Mechanically though, a 1 level dip is an obvious choice, and a 4 level dip is a pretty near obvious choice as well. Unless you really really want that full spellcasting progression as a sorcerer.
This is what we call an impasse. I don't agree with your assessment. Walking away from casting levels is never a no-brainer in my book and the payoffs don't really benefit casters.
How about making the dragon disciple an actual disciple and dropping the bloodline idea all together (leaving it to the sorcerer class)? The disciple could become more of a ranger or paladin/mounted combat prestige class. It would have to allow the character to use a longbow while mounted and require something like a lance proficiency along with ranks in ride. This would be the (only) path a ranger or paladin would have to follow to have a large dragon as a mount. Something to think about...
|
|
This is what we call an impasse. I don't agree with your assessment. Walking away from casting levels is never a no-brainer in my book and the payoffs don't really benefit casters.Again, the problem is not if it is a comparable prestige class with other prestiges. The problem is why a sorcerer already invested in the dragon bloodline would not take it. As I mentioned above, a dragon bloodline sorcerer is already likely built with melee in mind (being as their first ability is claw attacks). To get some of their dragon bloodline abilities earlier (including a possible extra feat, since they could still get three from the sorcerer class), the higher hit points and fort save, and the bonus to str all in exchange for a single casting level seems to be a great choice. Like you even pointed out, a single level dip is already a no brainer.
The problem is not whether or not the prestige is 'balanced' with others. It's whether or not a player, when wondering if he should take it, goes 'hmmm. This class has good stuff, and this one does too...this is hard, mechanically, I'll go with whichever I like better thematically." In this case, the theme is barely changed. You get a little better dragon abilities earlier in exchange for a little less casting. Mechanically though, a 1 level dip is an obvious choice, and a 4 level dip is a pretty near obvious choice as well. Unless you really really want that full spellcasting progression as a sorcerer.
Can you agree that a one-level dip is a no-brainer? There seems to be little to no downside there. I still believe that a PC already vested in the dragon bloodline for a sorcerer will have a hard time passing up 4 levels of this prestige for 1 lost casting level.
Can you agree that a one-level dip is a no-brainer? There seems to be little to no downside there. I still believe that a PC already vested in the dragon bloodline for a sorcerer will have a hard time passing up 4 levels of this prestige for 1 lost casting level.
Yes, I suggested above moving the caster level loss down by one level above. So caster level loss would be 1st, 4th, and 7th instead of 2nd, 5th, and 8th.
Hmmm I would really like your type to change to Dragon somewhere alone the way. The longer lifespan is a big plus for long term games and it great for role playing fluff!
I was referring to getting the dragon type.
I made a nice long post comparing Barbarian 14 to a Barb4/Sorc1/DD10 but the stupid boards ate it.
In summary, the Barb4/Sorc1/DD10 lost 3 points of BaB, a couple hit points and a few Rage Powers. It came out almost even on the combat side because of the stat boosts. Came out close because of Bonus Bloodline feats. And then came out way ahead because of 4th level spells.
For a pure Caster, losing ANY casting levels is really not worth it. But for any none pure casting build, the DD is a huge win as is.
I think the class looks good and should be left as is.
|
|
Since the DD doesn't gain spells known, it doesn't matter that at level 20 a 10 Sorc / 10 DD can cast up to 4 8th level spells a day because the highest level he can know will be level 5.
I cannot believe that is intentional. In all the other prestige classes that this PDF has the same text is used. Normally, when you take a level in a prestige that gives you +1 level of spellcasting, you get new spells known and spells per day, but no other benefits of the class (like familiar bonuses, bloodline progression, etc.). That a wizard in the Mystic Theurge class could theoretically not get new spells each level is ridiculous, and I am 99.9% sure that this is just an error in the description.
I cannot believe that is intentional. In all the other prestige classes that this PDF has the same text is used. Normally, when you take a level in a prestige that gives you +1 level of spellcasting, you get new spells known and spells per day, but no other benefits of the class (like familiar bonuses, bloodline progression, etc.). That a wizard in the Mystic Theurge class could theoretically not get new spells each level is ridiculous, and I am 99.9% sure that this is just an error in the description.
Since the DD doesn't gain spells known, it doesn't matter that at level 20 a 10 Sorc / 10 DD can cast up to 4 8th level spells a day because the highest level he can know will be level 5.
The wording is... vague with regards to spells known but the text of the spells per day section is essentially the same as it is for every other Arcane PrC and the same as it has been for other PrCs. Sorcerers gain spells known right along with their spells per day just as they do with every other Arcane PrC. There are 3 spell levels lost which means Sorc 10/ DD 10 is casting 8th level spells at 20th level.
The wording is... vague with regards to spells known but the text of the spells per day section is essentially the same as it is for every other Arcane PrC and the same as it has been for other PrCs. Sorcerers gain spells known right along with their spells per day just as they do with every other Arcane PrC. There are 3 spell levels lost which means Sorc 10/ DD 10 is casting 8th level spells at 20th level.
Yes, I completely agree with you. The only spells that the Dragon Disciple doesn't gain are the Bonus Bloodline spells, since they are not - technically - part of the Bloodline Powers, much like the Bonus Bloodline Feats. A full Sorcerer, on the contrary, gains Bloodline Powers, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline Feats.
Otherwise, the header for Bloodline Feats gained by a Dragon Disciple would be extremely redundant at best (at worst,it could lead to a Dragon Disciple who gains DOUBLE the amount of Bloodline Feats...)
The problem with the wording (I think) is that in the 3.5 SRD, the Eldritch Knight lists "From 2nd level on, when a new eldritch knight level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class." and doesn't say anything about new spells known. Also in the SRD, the Mystic Theurge says "When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. " and doesn't tell anything about spells known either. And the Thaumaturgist is exactly the same (no references to spells known added).
The only classes that speak about spells known are, incidentally, the Archmage and the Loremaster (I double-checked just 5 minutes ago), both legacies from 3.0. My strong suspect is that the guys at WOTC left the old references from existing classes when they wrote the 3.5 SRD, and wrote from a blank slate the new classes; since the "spells known are added" was a consolidated idea, they never wrote the new classes in the old, 3.0 way (but they DID copy-paste with the old, existing 3.0 classes).
This is, of course, a mere speculation, but I think that is not too far from the truth. Otherwise, ALL spellcasting classes from 3.5 (except from Archmage and Loremaster) would not have any extra spells known...
Looking at the book complete arcane the prestige classes that advance spell casting ability refer to both spells per day and spells known and thus such wording that includes reference to spells known can not be dismissed as a holdover from 3.0.
Well, either this (an holdover), or (as I stated before) both the 3.5 and the Pathfinder Arcane Trickster, Dragon Disciple, Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge and the 3.5 Thaumaturgist DO NOT have extra spells known - and that would be extremely lame, at best...
Advances only spells per day: arcane trickster, dragon disciple, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge
Advances spells per day and spells known: loremaster
Seems pretty clearly an errata issue. Unless Jason deliberately wanted to nerf Sorcerer's in prestige classes which does not seem to be the intent. I'm copying your post onto the errata thread.
Looking at the book complete arcane the prestige classes that advance spell casting ability refer to both spells per day and spells known and thus such wording that includes reference to spells known can not be dismissed as a holdover from 3.0.
The prestige class spell progression is the same as it was in 3.5. It could definitely be worded better and I'm not sure why Loremaster words it that way but none of the other classes do.
Read this way wizards also do not learn 2 spells per level when they level up either so they have to buy spells whenever they level up.
The problem of only advancing spells per day happened when this was changed in pathfinder and this is probably a mistake. However currently the dragon disciple only advances spells per day and not spells known.
No, this is not true. The wording in the SRD does not refer to spells known or spells learned (wizard) at all for most PrCs.
Seems pretty clearly an errata issue. Unless Jason deliberately wanted to nerf Sorcerer's in prestige classes which does not seem to be the intent. I'm copying your post onto the errata thread.
The 3.5 FAQ cleared up the issue; maybe Jason could integrate the clarification into the Pathfinder rules. In fact, that goes for just about everything in the 3.5 FAQ!
I think 1 level of DD is a no-brainer right now and wouldn't mind seeing the lost levels moved to 1st level, 4th level, and 7th. That would make the class much tougher to dip but preserve much of it's appeal for the appropriate people.The 4 level dip you suggest? I think that's a tougher sell if you are planning on being a primary caster. Keep in mind the Sorcerer is already behind the wizard in spell progression this puts him a full spell level behind the wizard in pretty much sealing his fate as a secondary caster. Going for more than 4 levels you might as well stick it out because you are definitely a secondary caster now.
Are we really talking about taking Dips already? Are we going to have an Optimization forum too?
Prestige Classes are for role-playing, not meta-gaming!
Imo, if you take a Prestige Class then that's a full-time commitment.
There'll be no dipping here.
Are we really talking about taking Dips already? Are we going to have an Optimization forum too?
Prestige Classes are for role-playing, not meta-gaming!
Imo, if you take a Prestige Class then that's a full-time commitment.
There'll be no dipping here.
I agree. It's not really relevant to discussion of this specific prestige class though.
There have been threads that talk about making a rule to prevent dipping. Personally I don't think it's a big issue but some folks do. I do feel there should never be a situation where a prestige class is identical to the core class but adds something else and that is exactly what the first level of Dragon Discipline does.
Poorly balanced prestige classes do not encourage role playing.
I agree. It's not really relevant to discussion of this specific prestige class though.Poorly balanced prestige classes do not encourage role playing.
Point taken.
and
Agreed.
Frankly I think this class has the capability to be a decent melee or melee caster class.
The original class was a horrifically underpowered melee type more than anything, this one is more of a caster really.
Could we go back to melee class?
The original class was a horrifically underpowered melee type more than anything, this one is more of a caster really.
I don't even think it was that underpowered compared to levels in other underpowered classes like monk, fighter, paladin, etc.
Could we go back to melee class?
Indeed. I think +1/2 spellcasting would be plenty, for instance. And I miss the half-dragon template as the capstone ability.
The original class was a horrifically underpowered melee type more than anything, this one is more of a caster really.I don't even think it was that underpowered compared to levels in other underpowered classes like monk, fighter, paladin, etc.
Well they are now. I think a full base attack minimum.
Maybe even cast with out problems in light armor at like level 5-6 of the PrC would be cool, maybe even medium at like 8-9; just a thought.
Could we go back to melee class?Indeed. I think +1/2 spellcasting would be plenty, for instance. And I miss the half-dragon template as the capstone ability.
DEAR GOD YES! Cut the caster levels, AND give us the template back please!
Maybe we should up that stat progression so the template is gained like level 6-7? Then give the current assume dragon form abilities at the current level? Perhaps this is all coming out to be too powerful for the PrC, but this is just a bunch of individual ideas.