Hmmm I would really like your type to change to Dragon somewhere alone the way. The longer lifespan is a big plus for long term games and it great for role playing fluff!I was referring to getting the dragon type.
I'm not quite sure how getting the dragon type increases life span or adds role playing fluff any more than getting level 10 in dragon disciple currently does.
I'm not quite sure how getting the dragon type increases life span or adds role playing fluff any more than getting level 10 in dragon disciple currently does.Hmmm I would really like your type to change to Dragon somewhere alone the way. The longer lifespan is a big plus for long term games and it great for role playing fluff!I was referring to getting the dragon type.
If your type is dragon, that means you have the lifespan of a dragon, that means you ARE a dragon. There is a curtain feeling of coolness, power, and nobility that the charter has obtained by this.
So later on when your x-some age group older, your new PCs can seek out the might half dragon mage to help them in their quest. Or in your epic campaign you don't have to worry about extending your lifespan with feats and magical effects.
Your type being Dragon does not mean that you are a true dragon, with the multiple-century lifespan and all the rest, just like having the Outsider type does not make you a solar or a pit fiend.
If your type is dragon, that means you have the lifespan of a dragon, that means you ARE a dragon. There is a curtain feeling of coolness, power, and nobility that the charter has obtained by this.
So later on when your x-some age group older, your new PCs can seek out the might half dragon mage to help them in their quest. Or in your epic campaign you don't have to worry about extending your lifespan with feats and magical effects.
No, I don't think so. I pretty sure the true dragons have those age categories, but I don't think they apply to all dragons. The only place in the core books that I've seen the dragon life span chart is in the true dragon section.
I mean, the DM can certainly say what ever that they want about how half-dragons or dragon disciples age, but I don't think there is a rule in the core that says it is so.
OK, so I was mistaken about the age. Everything else was right though.
OK, so I was mistaken about the age. Everything else was right though.
It is just from that point of view that gaining the dragon type, by itself, has no effect to promote the fact that your character is now more awesome or cooler than before he had that type.
From my perspective adding the dragon type, by itself, has no perceivable effect to the entire world around you. The changes that it makes are hard to detect and don't even matter for almost the entire world around you. A handful of spells no longer effect you and now rangers with dragon as their favored enemy can see your weak points. This does not make me think that attaining this is anything special to the creatures that look at you.
That 10th level ability could be "Awesome (Ex): You are awesome," but if it doesn't have an effect on the people around you, it doesn't really make you awesome to them. You might say "look at my awesome class feature," to the fellow players, but to the characters there would be no significant change. The awesome class feature isn't really doing anything.
OK, so I was mistaken about the age. Everything else was right though.It is just from that point of view that gaining the dragon type, by itself, has no effect to promote the fact that your character is now more awesome or cooler than before he had that type.
From my perspective adding the dragon type, by itself, has no perceivable effect to the entire world around you. The changes that it makes are hard to detect and don't even matter for almost the entire world around you. A handful of spells no longer effect you and now rangers with dragon as their favored enemy can see your weak points. This does not make me think that attaining this is anything special to the creatures that look at you.
That 10th level ability could be "Awesome (Ex): You are awesome," but if it doesn't have an effect on the people around you, it doesn't really make you awesome to them. You might say "look at my awesome class feature," to the fellow players, but to the characters there would be no significant change. The awesome class feature isn't really doing anything.
Dude... my awesome just shines through the skin. Rangers take favored enemy "Awesome" to hunt me down so they can die at my feet.
OK, so I was mistaken about the age. Everything else was right though.It is just from that point of view that gaining the dragon type, by itself, has no effect to promote the fact that your character is now more awesome or cooler than before he had that type.
From my perspective adding the dragon type, by itself, has no perceivable effect to the entire world around you. The changes that it makes are hard to detect and don't even matter for almost the entire world around you. A handful of spells no longer effect you and now rangers with dragon as their favored enemy can see your weak points. This does not make me think that attaining this is anything special to the creatures that look at you.
That 10th level ability could be "Awesome (Ex): You are awesome," but if it doesn't have an effect on the people around you, it doesn't really make you awesome to them. You might say "look at my awesome class feature," to the fellow players, but to the characters there would be no significant change. The awesome class feature isn't really doing anything.
Wow, you have a serious problem about fluff. There is also PrCs, such as the one in the draconimicon that requires dragon as the type to enter.
Wow, you have a serious problem about fluff. There is also PrCs, such as the one in the draconimicon that requires dragon as the type to enter.
I don't have a serious problem with fluff. It is just that I'm not sure how this is a fluff ability.
I also don't believe that being able to access dragon prestige classes and feats is a fluff reason either.
It is just from that point of view that gaining the dragon type, by itself, has no effect to promote the fact that your character is now more awesome or cooler than before he had that type.
Well, except that you are now immune to Charm Person, Hold Person, Dominate Person and the like - since you are a Dragon, only Charm Monsters, Hold Monsters, etc. now would work on you.
Well, except that you are now immune to Charm Person, Hold Person, Dominate Person and the like - since you are a Dragon, only Charm Monsters, Hold Monsters, etc. now would work on you.It is just from that point of view that gaining the dragon type, by itself, has no effect to promote the fact that your character is now more awesome or cooler than before he had that type.
Not to mention that:
- half-dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects
- half-dragons get immunity to one energy type
- half-dragons get an extra +4 Str
- half-dragons qualify for a bunch of stuff out of the splatbooks "Races of the Dragon", "Draconomicon" and "Dragon Magic" (oh no! splatbooks = blasphemy!!!)
- creatures with the dragon type are affected by dragon bane weapons, rangers with favored enemy "dragon", arrows of dragon slaying, (etc., ad nauseam) instead of effects keyed to their original type
There's no one huge difference, but there are small differences. It's certainly not just saying "You are awesome".
Wow, you have a serious problem about fluff. There is also PrCs, such as the one in the draconimicon that requires dragon as the type to enter.I don't have a serious problem with fluff. It is just that I'm not sure how this is a fluff ability.
I also don't believe that being able to access dragon prestige classes and feats is a fluff reason either.
Now when did I say it was purely a fluff ability??? Also the PrCs are all epic last I check for dragons so they really don't get into game play much... You need to chill out a little.
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The class is going to stay... as our list is pretty much locked in right now due to art choices.
I am all for discussing some work on the dragon disciple, but this thread needs a better title if that is going to be its focus. I will adjust the title.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you very much, What it really comes down to is this.. and its simple, Don't like it? don't use it. QED.
Well, except that you are now immune to Charm Person, Hold Person, Dominate Person and the like - since you are a Dragon, only Charm Monsters, Hold Monsters, etc. now would work on you.It is just from that point of view that gaining the dragon type, by itself, has no effect to promote the fact that your character is now more awesome or cooler than before he had that type.
And you are also immune to enlarge person. Hooray?
But that doesn't really make it great for roleplaying fluff nor make it so your character is more awesome or cooler... I don't think the citizens of the world will marvel at your ability to ignore these spells, in the same way the characters won't marvel at a character's ability to ignore daze.Not to mention that:
- half-dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis effects
- half-dragons get immunity to one energy type
- half-dragons get an extra +4 Str
- half-dragons qualify for a bunch of stuff out of the splatbooks "Races of the Dragon", "Draconomicon" and "Dragon Magic" (oh no! splatbooks = blasphemy!!!)
- creatures with the dragon type are affected by dragon bane weapons, rangers with favored enemy "dragon", arrows of dragon slaying, (etc., ad nauseam) instead of effects keyed to their original type
There's no one huge difference, but there are small differences. It's certainly not just saying "You are awesome".
Not half-dragon. Dragon-type. Those first three items, and a portion of the fourth, are not granted just by getting that. And I'm not quite sure how the other two make it great for roleplaying fluff or makes you cooler. Should the characters be amazed that you now get beaten down by a dragon-slayer rather than an human-slayer? While qualifing for feats and prestige classes is certainly something, I'm not sure how qualifing for that is great for role-playing fluff.
I'm not sure what you are arguing against anymore... here is the quote I read.
Hmmm I would really like your type to change to Dragon somewhere alone the way. The longer lifespan is a big plus for long term games and it great for role playing fluff!I was referring to getting the dragon type.
Followed by...
If your type is dragon, that means you have the lifespan of a dragon, that means you ARE a dragon. There is a curtain feeling of coolness, power, and nobility that the charter has obtained by this.
So later on when your x-some age group older, your new PCs can seek out the might half dragon mage to help them in their quest. Or in your epic campaign you don't have to worry about extending your lifespan with feats and magical effects.
And then...
OK, so I was mistaken about the age. Everything else was right though.
I have not been arguing that getting the dragon type doesn't do stuff. I've been arguing against the "great for roleplaying fluff" and "certain feeling of coolness, power, and nobility."
Now when did I say it was purely a fluff ability??? Also the PrCs are all epic last I check for dragons so they really don't get into game play much... You need to chill out a little.
You didn't. However I'm still not sure how it is a great fluff ability since almost every creature that you will face is not effected by your type change and can't tell that anything is different.
To be honest, I believe a character might be able to qualify for Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis at 17th level and that there might be some combination to let a player character qualify for Sacred Watcher or Bahamut or Unholy Ravager of Tiamet a little before epic levels.
I have a sorcerer that I am testing out and my GM and I have a difference on leveling up. It says that a dragon desciple adds their level to the previous sorcerer levels for determining bloodline powers. If we read it corectly you only need level 2 in sorcerer [as long as you have know: arcana as a class skill] to qualify for the prestige class. At 3rd level you take DD and gain not only what is on the chart for that prestigue class [which includes a +1 natural armor bonus] but you also get your third level bloodline powers [whic also includes a +1 natural armor class].
Is it correct that all bloodline powers stack with the power and abilities that are granted by the dragon desciple? So at level 2 sorcerer/ level 1 Dragon desciple you actually get +2 armor class and everything else?
Dragons are know for spell casting as well as physical power are they not? I see the loss of spell level appropriate as is. If I have read the class right it does make the character a good front line man, which is what it does seem was intended. Especially being a sorcerer it should be magic spells and physical power emerging from his bloodline, not just physcial power.
There hasn't been a lot of clarification coming from Paizo on this sort of thing.
I try to read things literally.
Everything under the section that says "bloodline powers" including Claws, Draconic Resistances (including Natural Armor), Breath Weapon, etc... all of it advances.
In addition the class features of the dragon disciple advance as well.
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I have a sorcerer that I am testing out and my GM and I have a difference on leveling up. It says that a dragon desciple adds their level to the previous sorcerer levels for determining bloodline powers. If we read it corectly you only need level 2 in sorcerer [as long as you have know: arcana as a class skill] to qualify for the prestige class. At 3rd level you take DD and gain not only what is on the chart for that prestigue class [which includes a +1 natural armor bonus] but you also get your third level bloodline powers [whic also includes a +1 natural armor class].
Is it correct that all bloodline powers stack with the power and abilities that are granted by the dragon desciple? So at level 2 sorcerer/ level 1 Dragon desciple you actually get +2 armor class and everything else?
Dragons are know for spell casting as well as physical power are they not? I see the loss of spell level appropriate as is. If I have read the class right it does make the character a good front line man, which is what it does seem was intended. Especially being a sorcerer it should be magic spells and physical power emerging from his bloodline, not just physcial power.
Actually you only need one level of sorcerer (or bard) before taking DD, but you still need 5 levels (Knowledge arcana 5 ranks) before taking the class. My current character is a fighter2 rogue2 sorcerer1 dragon disciple1. I believe all the powers stack because "A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline" this is before the Prc powers. It took me two times reading the dragon blood section to realize that I still get access to the bloodline spells.
Actually, I'm not sure what is wrong with the class. It gives a nice advancement for people who want to be martial casters. It's a huge improvement over the previous incarnation of the class. About the biggest concern I have is the oddball d12 HD.
I agree completely. I like it overall though the hd does seem strange. But I am in the "keep it" coulmn myself
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Actually, I'm not sure what is wrong with the class. It gives a nice advancement for people who want to be martial casters. It's a huge improvement over the previous incarnation of the class. About the biggest concern I have is the oddball d12 HD.I agree completely. I like it overall though the hd does seem strange. But I am in the "keep it" coulmn myself
The d12 HD is because dragons have d12s the original prestige class (3.0) had steps up d6 then d8 then d12, making the PC reroll as they got better HD. With 3.5 they got rid of that clumsy mechanic making it d12 at all levels.
Here a simple new more melee oriented Dragon Deciple PrC
BAB F R W
1st +1 +1 +0 +1 Blood of Dragons, natural armor increase (+1)
2nd +2 +1 +1 +1 Ability boost (Str +2), bloodline feat —
3rd +3 +2 +1 +2 Breath weapon, Energy Resistance 15
4th +4 +2 +1 +2 Ability boost (Con +2), natural armor increase (+2)
5th +5 +3 +2 +3 Blindsense 30 ft., bloodline feat —
6th +6 +3 +2 +3 Ability boost (Int +2), Energy Resistance 30
7th +7 +4 +2 +4 natural armor increase (+3)
8th +8 +4 +3 +4 Wings, bloodline feat —
9th +9 +5 +3 +5 Blindsense 60 ft.
10th +10 +5 +3 +5 Dragon Apotheosis
Spells per Day: At 2nd levels and ever even level of dragon deciple then on, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane
spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Energy Resistance
At 3rd level, this ability grants a character limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types that is the same as your breath weapon. The subject gains energy resistance 15 against the that energy type. Each time the character is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 15 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points. The value of the energy resistance granted increases to 30 points at 6th level.
Dragon Apotheosis
At 9th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +6 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.
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However I would love to break this into a 14 level PrC and fit in a few of my other ideas. I know it is a little acward, but quite fankly I think this should be a 14 level prc.
I think what ticks me off the most here is the loss of the half dragon template. This gives us a lot and I think the 1/day spell like ability is the good old bait and switch.
Yeah you get great hights but if I am not mistaken the bonus from the spell is enhancment, while the template was on all the time and untyped.
Please, I understand it needed a change, probably just a flat increase in power. Could you please just give us 1/2 caster progression and the template back, and maybe give these spell like abilities at like level 12 and 14.
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And you are also immune to enlarge person. Hooray?
Actually I asked this to wizards years ago, and the official response back was that half-dragons still fit the wording of enlarge person if the base creature could have been affected by an enlarge person. The template makes him an augmented humanoid, so my player with a sor1/monk4/DD10 could still enlarge himself before entering battle.
Something else that may or may not mean much to everyone. Bards can still qualify for DD. While it may seem a no brainer statement I'm just trying to point out what this class does for the bard, everything that's good for the sorcerer out of DD works just as good if not better for the bard. Yes you give up advancing the bardic music, but the bonuses and boosts tend to result in a much more dynamic and powerful bard too.
Something else that may or may not mean much to everyone. Bards can still qualify for DD. While it may seem a no brainer statement I'm just trying to point out what this class does for the bard, everything that's good for the sorcerer out of DD works just as good if not better for the bard. Yes you give up advancing the bardic music, but the bonuses and boosts tend to result in a much more dynamic and powerful bard too.
This is true, plus you have a better BAB and the ability to cast in light armor which plays well with the melee aspects. The downside is the bard's casting is a little weaker IMO than the sorcerer.
Well the bard's casting is a lot weaker, and gets worse after several levels of DD because of the missing caster levels. But again it would come down to tastes. Looking at a level 15 build of bard 5 / DD 10 I would take it personally. Maybe not everytime but if I was looking for a more front line bard more than half the time.
I just wanted to make sure that if we adjust this prestige class we do remember that it has more than one way to enter it and a large pool of talents already. This is not the 3.0 weapon master class that you can only take if you are a fighter.
Well the bard's casting is a lot weaker, and gets worse after several levels of DD because of the missing caster levels. But again it would come down to tastes. Looking at a level 15 build of bard 5 / DD 10 I would take it personally. Maybe not everytime but if I was looking for a more front line bard more than half the time.
I just wanted to make sure that if we adjust this prestige class we do remember that it has more than one way to enter it and a large pool of talents already. This is not the 3.0 weapon master class that you can only take if you are a fighter.
Yeah, I like that bards can enter it. It's a nice option which didn't exist in 3.5
Well the bard's casting is a lot weaker, and gets worse after several levels of DD because of the missing caster levels. But again it would come down to tastes. Looking at a level 15 build of bard 5 / DD 10 I would take it personally. Maybe not everytime but if I was looking for a more front line bard more than half the time.
I just wanted to make sure that if we adjust this prestige class we do remember that it has more than one way to enter it and a large pool of talents already. This is not the 3.0 weapon master class that you can only take if you are a fighter.
Yeah, I like that bards can enter it. It's a nice option which didn't exist in 3.5
Well, actually they could in 3.5 (I don't remember in 3.0...)
From SRD, Dragon Disciple requirements:"Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation"
This includes Sorcerers and Bards...
In Neverwinter Nights 2, for example, it is a well-known 'tank-build' taking a 9th-level Fighter/1st-level Bard and making him an Half-Dragon with the Prestige Class.
I would try to make the following destinction:
1) The sorcerer bloodlines (in general) should alter some ways or give new options when casting. I would f.e. include some "channel" abilities: as a standard action you can convert a spell slot to ... (insert dragon breath for draconic bloodline here, etc.)
There shouldn't be physical transformations when going from sorc1 to sorc20.
2) That's where the prestige class kicks in!
I know it would be damn much to incorporate all bloodlines into one presitge class, but I think that's the nich it should get.
So while taking levels in Sorcerer means to develop your magical potential and some minor but not unimportant "special-tricks", taking levels in the "Bloodline Disciple" PrC means to fully embrase your bloodline and - over time - become one (or half) of your ancestors.
Spell Mastery [Special]
PrerequisiteWizard level 1st.
BenefitEach time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook.
NormalWithout this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic.
Also this feat should make the wizards qualify right?
I say no Bards, no Wizards. Only Sorcerers with the correct bloodline (if not changed to Bloodline Disciple -> Draconic BL)
There should be Dragonblood (or whatever blood - still refering to the Bloodine Disciple) in your veins - and not less - to become a Disciple.
Everything else feels like: "Wow! These Dragons are sooo cool, I wanna become one myself" is good enough and off you go.
Also this feat should make the wizards qualify right?Spell Mastery [Special]
PrerequisiteWizard level 1st.
BenefitEach time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook.
NormalWithout this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic.
Preparing spells without a spellbook is still preparing spells.
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Yes, I completely agree with you. The only spells that the Dragon Disciple doesn't gain are the Bonus Bloodline spells, since they are not - technically - part of the Bloodline Powers, much like the Bonus Bloodline Feats. A full Sorcerer, on the contrary, gains Bloodline Powers, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline Feats.
Otherwise, the header for Bloodline Feats gained by a Dragon Disciple would be extremely redundant at best (at worst,it could lead to a Dragon Disciple who gains DOUBLE the amount of Bloodline Feats...)
I will fully agree that a DD does not receive double the number of bloodline feats however it reads as follows under the Blood of the Dragons ability in the PrC:
"This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless
he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Lost bonus
spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell
slots of the spell’s level."
To me this would indicate that the DD does indeed gain bonus spells determined by his sorc level + his DD level to determine which bonus spells are gained. However that DD may not receive the bonus spells at the level indicated in the sorc class if he has yet to open a spell slot in the level of the bonus spell (Due to losing 3 spell casting levels over the course of the PrC.
In essence the DD PrC receives bloodline abilities, feats, and spells. The abilities and spells are gained by adding sorc and PrC levels together for determining eligibility and receives bloodline feats at a rate listed on the PrC level progression table...
I'm pretty sure I'm not crazy here. Can I get a clarification?
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Yes, I completely agree with you. The only spells that the Dragon Disciple doesn't gain are the Bonus Bloodline spells, since they are not - technically - part of the Bloodline Powers, much like the Bonus Bloodline Feats. A full Sorcerer, on the contrary, gains Bloodline Powers, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline Feats.
Otherwise, the header for Bloodline Feats gained by a Dragon Disciple would be extremely redundant at best (at worst,it could lead to a Dragon Disciple who gains DOUBLE the amount of Bloodline Feats...)I will fully agree that a DD does not receive double the number of bloodline feats however it reads as follows under the Blood of the Dragons ability in the PrC:
"This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless
he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Lost bonus
spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell
slots of the spell’s level."To me this would indicate that the DD does indeed gain bonus spells determined by his sorc level + his DD level to determine which bonus spells are gained. However that DD may not receive the bonus spells at the level indicated in the sorc class if he has yet to open a spell slot in the level of the bonus spell (Due to losing 3 spell casting levels over the course of the PrC.
In essence the DD PrC receives bloodline abilities, feats, and spells. The abilities and spells are gained by adding sorc and PrC levels together for determining eligibility and receives bloodline feats at a rate listed on the PrC level progression table...
I'm pretty sure I'm not crazy here. Can I get a clarification?
That's how I read it. I hope it's that was since my fighter/sorcerer took endure elements instead of mage armor since he'd be getting it at DD2.
I say no Bards, no Wizards. Only Sorcerers with the correct bloodline (if not changed to Bloodline Disciple -> Draconic BL)
There should be Dragonblood (or whatever blood - still refering to the Bloodine Disciple) in your veins - and not less - to become a Disciple.
Everything else feels like: "Wow! These Dragons are sooo cool, I wanna become one myself" is good enough and off you go.
Well you don't actually become a dragon. In this version, you don't actually even become a half dragon ether!
So your more of a pathetic want-a-be with a crappy spell like ability that can be dispessed at another person's whim.
I think that it's an awesome prestige. The problem is, it's too awesome. I can't see any draconic sorcerer in his or her right mind NOT taking it.
And when you have a prestige class that 99% of draconic sorcerers will want...something is wrong. The idea behind powering up the base classes was making it so that the decision between taking a prestige or going full base class was an even one, a difficult one to make. In this case, it's a no brainer. Why *wouldn't* you take it?
Well, I'd probably take it, especially if I knew that my GM was going to go into Epic levels. However, with no guarantee of Epic-ness, I might hesitate because of the loss of spell levels.
Well I guess I am out of luck. I just wish my GM will one day allow me to play a battle sorcerer with the draconic blood line.