Ok I know this part is done over and a lot of the fouces was spent on the paladin, however I had this thought last night and worked on this a bit today.
What if we base it not off spells but more off the PHB2 version of shapeshift so with that in mind I worked on this
When you wild shape into a form other than your own, you gain natural weapons (and reach with those weapons) as described below.At 8th level and higher they are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The damage dice given are for Medium druids; smaller or larger druids should adjust those values. Also in all wild shaped forms the druid gains low light vision.
If knocked unconscious or slain in wild shaped form, you revert to your original form.
Hunter Form: At 4th level you can wild shape into a hunter form, traditionally that of a wolf, panther, or other predatory mammal, is one of the first forms a druid learns. While in hunter form, you gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. You have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Small or Medium). You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and your natural armor bonus improves by 4. Your base land speed becomes 50 feet.
At 4th level, you gain Mobility as a bonus feat whenever you are in hunter form (even if you don’t meet the prerequisites).
Aerial Form: At 4th level, you can wild shape into a flying creature. Traditionally resembling an eagle, vulture, or bat, the aerial form enables fast travel and the ability to soar out of harm’s way. While in aerial form, you gain a primary talon attack that deals 1d6 points of damage. You have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Small or Medium). You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus on Reflex saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 2. You gain a fl y speed of 40 feet (good maneuverability). At 8th level, you gain Flyby Attack as a bonus feat whenever you are in aerial form.
Predator Form: At 8th level, you can wild shape into a large and fierce predatory form, such as a tiger, brown bear ,or dire wolf. While in ferocious slayer form, you gain a primary bite attack that deals 1d8 points of damage and two secondary claw attacks that each deal 1d6 points of damage. Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal), and you have the reach of a long creature of your size (5 feet for Medium or Large). You gain a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 8. Your base land speed changes to 40 feet.
At 10th level, you gain Improved Critical (bite) and Improved Critical (claw) as bonus feats whenever you are in predator form.
Fey Form: At 12th level, you can take the form of a massive plantlike creature, similar to a shambling mound or a treant. While in fey form, you gain a pair of primary slam attacks that deal 1d8 points of damage each. Your size increases by one category (to a maximum of Colossal) and you have the reach of a tall creature of your size (5 feet for Medium, 10 feet for Large). You gain a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 12. Your base land speed becomes 20 feet. You gain damage reduction 5/slashing while in fey form. At 14th level, you gain Improved Overrun as a bonus feat while in fey form (even if you don’t meet the
normal prerequisites).
Elemental Form: At 16th level, you can wild shape into a giant form of air, earth, fire, or water (your choice each time you wild shape). While in elemental form, you gain a pair of primary slam attacks that deal 2d6 points of damage each. Your size increases by two categories (to a maximum of Colossal), and
you have the reach of a tall creature of your size (10 feet for Large, 15 feet for Huge). You gain a +16 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +4 enhancement bonus on Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves, and your natural armor bonus improves by 16. You do not gain any new modes of movement in elemental form, nor does your base land speed change you do move at normal moment rate. You gain immunity to extra damage from critical hits while in elemental form. You also gain immunity to an energy type related to the element chosen (air = electricity, earth = acid,]
Let me know what ya think
I like the spells as they are now - well, not quite, but they're an improvement. Personally, I'd use a size bonus for the spells, or a combination of size and enhancement.
But I also had the idea of a "combat shape" or "hybrid shape".
Combat shapes would get more effensive bonuses (i.e. more strength and the like) but would only last a couple of minutes. The current versions would be "utility shapes" or something like that (with a better name, obviously)
Hybrid shape would be like a werewolf's shape: You get some of the creature's features, and some ability boosts, but you can still use your equipment - or at least your weapons.
I'm not sure which to use, or whether it should be combined - combat shape being a bit more powerful, giving you a hybrid form, but with a short duration while the utility shape being the current animal shapes with longer duration
Myself I don't like the ideal of a hybrid form. Pretty much this was just an ideal I had. A way to simplify the class without a need to add on a dozen modify s and such. I found the shapeshift variant to be useful, so I had the ideal of why not replace wildshape with something more like it.
I'm a big fan of the PHBII wildshape. Personally I think it was a bit of a "WTF were we thinking" sort of moment. Wizards should have said "This version of WS replaces the previous one" and released it as part of the OGL version of the game. Cowards..
I think the wild shape changes are here to stay. Maybe in PF II...
Edit: Fixed due to below comment
Don't you mean the PHB II? I don't know if there are any wild shape rules in the DMG II.
Yeah I dont think it will change it was just a thought. To me as it stands wild shape is a shoe horned set of spells. Does it do the job? well ya. Is it the best way to do that job? not at all
As it stands now, wildshape is highly disappointing. The druid from the game I'm running finally wildshaped for the first time and it was just underwhelming for me as the GM. I know the rules were set up to make things easier to arbitrate and that the rules are set up to make wildshape scale gradually, do be able to more easily see the druid become more powerful in this respect, but I actually find myself yearning for the old days.
As it stands now, wildshape is highly disappointing. The druid from the game I'm running finally wildshaped for the first time and it was just underwhelming for me as the GM. I know the rules were set up to make things easier to arbitrate and that the rules are set up to make wildshape scale gradually, do be able to more easily see the druid become more powerful in this respect, but I actually find myself yearning for the old days.
It's true: The changes for wildshape went too far. If the ability bonuses it grants were size bonuses rather than enchantment, it wouldn't be overshadowed by druid spells.
Since I almost never have the time to actually post here but input for the playtest was wanted here I am. I've been playing a druid levels 1 to now 12 in the crimson throne campaign. Before this campaign I've been playing D&D for about 15 years.
Over the course of playing the druid my biggest disappointment was how the physical stat blocks were altered with the shape changing, largely due to the significant loss in versatility that caused to the druid's shape change ability. For example, in playing the druid if I'm going to engage in melee it would be logical to take the form of a polar bear or lion for the inherent strength those creatures have. In turn if I needed to move through tight spaces or fly away to escape, the snake or large bird/insect necessary to achieve those ends would not be as strong or combat capable due to their nature and what they are.
As I understand it, this change was put into place due to the confusion surrounding the polymorph and shape changing abilities in 3.5. As an alternative to what has been done, I would suggest a slightly different solution. In the Pathfinder monster manual (PMM), list the physical ability modifiers in each creature's profile and have those modifiers applied to the character's stats accordingly. Or it could simply be stated in the PMM and in the ability's description to subtract 10 from the physical abilities of the creature being changed into to get the necessary modifiers.
The modifiers themselves would constitute a "transmutation bonus/penalty" since the character's abilities would be modified by the transformation. Yes this means that other spells like bear's endurance or bulls strength would stack, but from a common sense perspective this is the logical way it would work. In turn this would also compensate for the druid's reduced abilities to overcome damage reduction that someone accurately noticed earler.
As for the supernatural/spell like/extraordinary abilities of the creature the druid changes themselves into, coordinating this ability/spell with the description of each critter in the PMM would go a long ways to addressing the problems this had in 3.0 and 3.5. Doing it this way would also make the writing of the PMM be better thought out in terms of preventing unforeseen consequences (like the flying Roper I liked to use when I though the encounter was too difficult for the level we were at).
Hi everybody,
I would like to add my voice to the people "not so happy" with the wild shape ability of the druid.
First, the system proposed is not making anything simpler. Before, the druid was taking the form as well as the physical attributes of the chosen animal, point. No calculation, no check needed to see what he is and what he is not gaining, etc. Way faster if you ask me.
Second, some points are still unclear: is the natural armor bonus gained in the spell description to be added to the AC of the character (minus his possible armor which does not work anymore when transformed) or to the AC of the chosen animal?
Third, if the character gains the natural attacks of the animal, why does he not gain also the special attacks (e.g. constrict, etc..)?
All in all, my druid is never shape-shifting anymore, he invokes the real animals with all their abilities and attacks, and goes on casting or attacking in his original form.
The same considerations apply also to Elemental Body (especially regarding the final AC).
A big disappointment, I would say...
Hi everybody,
I would like to add my voice to the people "not so happy" with the wild shape ability of the druid.
First, the system proposed is not making anything simpler. Before, the druid was taking the form as well as the physical attributes of the chosen animal, point. No calculation, no check needed to see what he is and what he is not gaining, etc. Way faster if you ask me.
Second, some points are still unclear: is the natural armor bonus gained in the spell description to be added to the AC of the character (minus his possible armor which does not work anymore when transformed) or to the AC of the chosen animal?
Third, if the character gains the natural attacks of the animal, why does he not gain also the special attacks (e.g. constrict, etc..)?
All in all, my druid is never shape-shifting anymore, he invokes the real animals with all their abilities and attacks, and goes on casting or attacking in his original form.
The same considerations apply also to Elemental Body (especially regarding the final AC).
A big disappointment, I would say...
I agree. I will soon be playing a druid in a new campaign and have found that I was not a combat god in 3.5 and will not be in pathfinder with or without the rule changes. In order to be real deadly you'd need to have enough Greater Magic Fang in order to take out/damage BBEGs, otherwise you are just a "thug killer".
First, the system proposed is not making anything simpler. Before, the druid was taking the form as well as the physical attributes of the chosen animal, point. No calculation, no check needed to see what he is and what he is not gaining, etc. Way faster if you ask me.
Totally agree. I could see making certain abilities available at higher levels (improved grab, poison, etc.) to keep people from becoming too powerful too early. But it was so much simpler dealing with shapeshifting when you could just refer to the page in the monster manuel and leave it at that.
If you could continue to use your items in wild shape, that might be different. As it stands, you need items with specific enchantments (or certain specific class features) to be able to keep using them. In most cases, a druid using the Pathfinder wild-shaping actually makes themselves weaker by using the ability in most cases.
As it stands right now, Wild Shape is a cute trick and not much more.
First, the system proposed is not making anything simpler.
I don't think the goal was to make it simpler; the goal was to make it weaker. I.e. no 6 Str gnomes turning into 31 Str dire bears.
Second, some points are still unclear: is the natural armor bonus gained in the spell description to be added to the AC of the character (minus his possible armor which does not work anymore when transformed) or to the AC of the chosen animal?
You get the natural armor bonus stated in the spell. Period. It doesn't say anything about the animal's natural armor bonus.
Third, if the character gains the natural attacks of the animal, why does he not gain also the special attacks (e.g. constrict, etc..)?
You get all of the animal's special attacks which are listed under the spell description. E.g. a level 6 druid's wild shape is like Beast Shape II, so he would get improved grab and/or pounce and/or trip when he wild shapes (as appropriate). Constrict is reserved for level 8 druids (or higher), when his wild shape functions as Beast Shape III.
In my opinion, the druid really needed nerfing. Maybe they went a little too far, but I hope they don't revert to the case where a druid can get a +25 bonus to Str that lasts all day.
It's true: The changes for wildshape went too far. If the ability bonuses it grants were size bonuses rather than enchantment, it wouldn't be overshadowed by druid spells.
There's another reason to change the bonuses from Beast Shape spells (and so, Wildshape as well) in Size bonus (at least partially):
the spell Enlarge Person (and all those related to it).Since the caster (the Druid) is not changing his type anymore (like in 3.x editions), and since most player characters are humanoids by definition, a Druid who Wildshapes into, let's say, a Huge animal, and is then subjected to an Enlarge Person would become a Gargantuan creature; this would change his natural attack damage by one step (let's say, from 2d6 to 3d6), worsen his AC and Attack Roll (by size increment), and boost his Strength as well (as per Enlarge Person, +2 Strength).
Unless the sentence "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." applies to the inceased size from Beast Shape/Wildshape.
IF, by chance, this would not be the case (since, technically, the Beast Shape/Wild Shape does not increase the size, but gives a new form with a fixed size), woe to the foe of an 8th-level Druid/9th-level Cleric with the Natural Spell feat, who wildshapes into a Megaraptor (Huge animal; +6 Enhancement Str, -4 Dex, +6 Natural Armor; Talons 2d8+ (Str bonus), 2 Foreclaws 1d4+(1/2 Str bonus), Bite 2d6+ (1/2 Str bonus)) AND THEN casts Righteous Might (+4 Size Str, +4 Size Con, -2 Dex; +2 Enhancement Natural Armor; Natural Weapons damage increase to Talons 3d8+ (Str bonus), 2 Foreclaws 1d6+(1/2 Str bonus), Bite 3d6+ (1/2 Str bonus)).
OUCH !...
How about giving us some special attacks with Beast Shape I? (I'm particularly looking for pounce & rake.) And/or let us use some magic items (let our headbands, belts, cloaks, rings work while in beast shape?)
Those types of magic items do work, as a rule. Here's what it says under the Polymorph subschool:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into
a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast,
plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be
activated continue to function while melded in this way (with
the exception of armor bonuses which cease to function).
Items that require activation cannot be used while you
maintain that form."
(emphasis mine)
I think one of the biggest concerns is a druid now has a lot of MAD (Mult-Attribute Dependant).
They now need lots of base STR to make their Wild shape useful.
They need CON to stay alive (since Wild shape generally puts them into the heat of combat)
They need WIS to access their high level spells
Their "dump stats" are:
CHA (which is arguable since they have to train their animal and most druids I've seen are fairly diplomatic vs war mongerers),
DEX (which again is arguable since it impacts their AC in wild shape form)
INT (which is essentially there for their skills).
If the bonuses from Wildshape were changed to Inherent, I think it would go a long way to fixing and balancing the druids. Sure that 8 strength gnome wont shoot up to a 30+ strength elemental, but it will give him an inherent bonus, and his belt of giant strength +6 will supplement the rest.
Just my thoughts anyways...
Adding to what the guy above me said, I liked the idea that when a druid wild shapes they gain the str, dex, and con of the animal they become while keeping their own int, wis, and cha.
I also wish that they could make the wildshape ability a little more "customizable" for the druid rather than just say it is identical to the "such and such" polymorph spell. In the game I am running I wanted to make my druid NPC take the huge form of the normally smaller animal, the fox. I think that it would be cool if instead of just saying they can turn in a Huge or Tiny animal just like Beast Form III it gave an option that druids can have the ability to also become a huge or tiny form of an 'animal' that normally isn't of that size, and they can use the chart for changes in monster size to modify the creatures speed, str, dex, con. They could only use this variant size with regular animals, not magical beasts. That way a player can be part of a Bear Tribe or something and not gimp themselves when they are a level 16 druid changing into a brown bear instead of a gray render or something.
I have run a game in 3.5 where a druid at lower levels with tiger form and pounce was VERY strong. However at higher levels going master of many forms and losing spell casting + the errata that con didn't effect hp his effectiveness dropped FAST. I let him have a magical item that allowed supernatural beast which I always thought the class should have versus aberrations anyway and he still in some cases seemed under powered. The exception to this was hydra form. I would like to see some kind of level based/size based options. These are of top of my head ideas as examples of what I am trying to say versus real thought through examples. I will add I like the add to stats option so your low str con dex druids are less effective than high stat casters. Lastly why would a sorcerer ever take beast for except to fly away from something seriously.
ie
lvl 6 druid
small form options
+2 dex +2 dodge bonus +2 perception eagle
+2 dex +2 damage bite attack +2 survival and scent hunting dog
medium form
+2 str +2 con +4 damage bite wolf
+2 dex +2 str +2 dodge hunting cat
lvl 15 druid
small form options
+6 dex +4 dodge +4 perception golden eagle or mythical bird level
+6 dex +6 damage bite +4 survival scent irish wolfhound or mythical dog
medium form options
+6 str +6 con +8 damage viscious timber wolf
+6dex +6 str +4 dodge spectral panther
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components, and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size."
Is it generally accepted that a +1 sword in your hand means that you have a +1 to your attack(s) when you Wild Shape? It is an item providing a constant bonus and does not need to be activated.
If that is true, does it modify all attacks in your Wild Shape form, or just one (if you have only one attack, then it adds to that. If you have multiple, it applies to the attack that you and your GM decided on)?
Now, let's say you have a +1 flaming sword. Once activated, the flaming quality is constant. Now you Wild Shape. Would your attack(s) gain both a +1 and flaming, or would you rule that, because the flaming is something that is activated, it falls under the "activated" rule and ceases functioning for as long as you are in a Wild Shape?
I don't think the goal was to make it simpler; the goal was to make it weaker. I.e. no 6 Str gnomes turning into 31 Str dire bears.Certainly this is a dramatic change in strength scores, but isn't that the point of the ability in this circumstance? (i.e. small, weak creature suddenly becomes large, strong creature [vs. large, weak creature]).
That's a +25 Untyped Bonus to one of a character's ability scores. That is not balanced in any way, shape, or form against any other stat boosting effect in the game system.
By way of rebuttal
That's a +25 Untyped Bonus to one of a character's ability scores.Mechanically, that is how it works out in this case, yes, but it's at least a little more complicated than that, isn't it? The druid is physically becoming another creature, a dire bear (a large animal with a documented strength score). The "bonus" is a calculation made in hindsight from reference to the creature and the caster, which is why it is "untyped." And if our hypothetical gnome had any other strength score, it would not be a +25 "bonus."
You're right. It's BETTER then a +25 bonus. You get nasty claws and teeth and can still cast spells if you have the proper form. And we haven't even started talking about the other ability score bonuses yet. It's broken as all hell.
Assuming that it is advisable to balance magical affects against one another in a game system, aren't there at least some "way[s], shape[s], or form[s]" of balance here? What about the limitation to self-only; the loss of the ability to speak; the loss of the ability to use wands, staves, scrolls, potions, etc; and the cumbersome new character size (especially in dungeons)? I don't mean to suggest that these would be sufficient (see my original post) but they are limitations which are not imposed by other "stat boosting" spells.
Those are all insufficient factors to balance the way Wild Shape used to work. Hence why it has been changed - thank god.
I don't mean to suggest that no change is needed from 3.5. Something should be done, but I don't think approaching it from a wholly meta-game perspective is the right move. Any rules change should be consistent with the concept which it purports to implement [wildshape = +x str, -x dex, +x con irrespective of the form taken within a given size category?]
Approaching it from a meta-game perspective is the only thing you can do when you have an ability that is so unbalanced.
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The original wildshape ability was overpowered. However these changes unfortunately make the druid both too weak and too boring as well as uunversatile.
The druid as before was built on 3 pillars. Wildshape for mellee and flexibility, animal companion to support the mellee, and spells for buffs and healing and some offense.
The changes in wildshape remove the mellee role of the druid for all intents and purposes and return them to a caster role with a pre summoned pet.
Compare them to other casters. They have fewer spells than either cleric or wizard. They are much worse at damage dealing or flexibility than arcane classes, worse at healing, mellee and versatility than clerics. They dont really get 'a bit of both' they are more like limited spell clerics in leather.
Wildshape was overpowered but it was at the heart of the druid. Without it the druid needs a lot of compensation. A lot more and more powerful spells or some other way to engage in mellee if that role is to be salvaged.
In short, by making the simple change to untyped attribute bonus' the overpowered 3.5 wildshape scenario is avoided (attributes are still not replaced by the new forms' values) but the druid is still able to see significant value in wildshaping to a stronger/larger form, even if they have say, a girdle of giant strength.
This would be the best idea , making the bonuses to the beast shape/elemental form/plant form just a natural bonus, then you can stack your spells/items (enhancement bonus) to buff you a bit further.