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There is no class skill for any other class that is required in order to do the very class features of the class. Perception with trapfinding of the rogue is the only close example - but even it doesn't have a "minimum ranks" clause in the ability.
Bards and their performances is the ONLY example where a skill MUST be taken in order to be able to do their very class features.
This is not only unfair, but completely irrational.
The bard is listed as getting 6 skill points per level - but seeing as though you have a minimum requirement for each of the bard performances, the bard really only has 5 skill points - one is already guaranteed to be allocated to perform (unless the player doesn't really want to do what the bard is suppose to do).
Not only do they have to maintain the highest possible ranks in Perform to be optimally effective, but there are multiple facets of the skill requiring multiple skill ranks to be good at all of them. (music, and acting for instance).
If the bard is going to have class feature performances, then he should be granted them without making him pay for it with skill ranks.
That being said - i think we and Paizo can think of other ways to make Perform skill useful, without hamstringing the bard if he doesn't want to take it.
My suggestions: make the bardic performances class features seperate of the skill - the skill would be superfluous.
Perhaps the skill allows
1) bards earn twice the money when using the perform skill to earn money. (1st level)
2) Allow the Perform skill to replace Concentration checks for the bard (or Spellcraft checks used for the purpose of Concentration) (3rd level)
3) Allow the Perform skill to substitute Diplomacy. (5th level)
These ideas are just brain-droppings and not at all well-thought out yet or playtested - but its a start. Regardless, the bard needs to be divorced from the essential expenditure of ranks on that skill just to be able to use their class features.
Robert
I guess I'm not sure about this. It seems like many classes have built in skill requirments. Spellcasters must take Spellcraft to be effective, and are expected to take Knowledge (Arcane) or (Religion) or both. Rangers need track. Druids are wise to take Fly. Most rogues I've known need tumble.
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I guess I'm not sure about this. It seems like many classes have built in skill requirments. Spellcasters must take Spellcraft to be effective, and are expected to take Knowledge (Arcane) or (Religion) or both. Rangers need track. Druids are wise to take Fly. Most rogues I've known need tumble.
Those are not required. They HELP, but are not required. A wizard could theoretically choose to allocate 5 ranks to Knowledge Arcane and consider that to be enough. A rogue could put 5 ranks to Tumble and say thats enough.
A bard as written must maintain a full rank complement to that skill in order to even be able to USE the ability; not be better at it, or be optimally effective with it - just to USE it.
Arguing that certain classes are wise to allocate certain classes are valid points and in all pragmatism, you are correct - but again, it isn't required.
A fighter/rogue who intends to be a heavily armored combatant, need not put ranks in Tumble. An aquatic druid may not ever intend to take on the form of an avian. A ranger may be an urban version and not intending to track in the city-streets. These are all character option/player choices. These skills do not force the hand of the player to allocate his skill points a certain way - barring general pragmatism for optimal effectiveness of a classes role in the party.
Robert
I see your point, Robert. Maybe this should be looked at. I'm generally in favor of optimum flexibilty. I do think, however, that in practice spellcasters without Spellcraft are nearly as hindered as a bard without Perform, even if it doesn't look that way on paper.
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I see your point, Robert. Maybe this should be looked at. I'm generally in favor of optimum flexibilty. I do think, however, that in practice spellcasters without Spellcraft are nearly as hindered as a bard without Perform, even if it doesn't look that way on paper.
Fair enough; I'll admit it's nearly a must - but it doesnt have to be maxed out every level per se.
Also - so long as Perform skill has other class-related 'benefits' - not restrictions and requirements, then it its still kept as a lucrative skill worth investing in - like Spellcraft is for Wizards. I'm not advocating removing the skill from ever being needed or invested in - just the imperative allocation to it.
If the skill can provide other benefits that synergizes with the bard and his talents, then its' once again a viable skill - and many if not most bard players will invest a modicum amount of their skill ranks into that skill.
Robert
I'd be in favour of alternative bard abilities. Bards aren't just minstrels.
Perhaps offering somthing similier to the Archeivists "Dark Knowledge" ability, which would give the option of a class feature based on knowledge skills instead. This could allow bards the option to act as scholers rather than musicians.
Or perhaps even somthing like an artist ability, such as drawing a creature on parchment and brining that creature to life, allowing the bard to take on a dramatically different role than normal (in this case a summoner-esc character) and rely on yet another skill outwith perform (in this case it would probably be somthing like "Craft - Sketch/Painting").
In any case, I think the bard should get free ranks in the skill used, since no other class requires ranks in a skill to have a class feature function.
Robert, would it be enough for you if Jason just cut the rank requirments for Bardic Music effects and made them soly level-based? Then a bard could risk having fewer ranks.
I'd be in favour of alternative bard abilities. Bards aren't just minstrels.
You should weigh in on brotherwilli's excellent post on this topic, Nero. The Bard As A Dilettante, Not A Musician
A bard as written must maintain a full rank complement to that skill in order to even be able to USE the ability; not be better at it, or be optimally effective with it - just to USE it.
So ... just a thought: Bardic music is tied to a Perform check rather than Perform ranks. In order to use the different varieties of music, require a Perform check, with the DC going appropriately higher for the higher levels of music (say, DC = 10+2*level where the bard gains access). Allow a bonus of bard level to the check.
For instance, a Level 1 ability could have a DC of 12. A lvl 1 bard with max ranks in perform, Cha 16 and no feats benefiting Perform would make that 80% of the time. A lvl 1 bard with no ranks in perform, Cha 16 and no applicable feats would make it 60% of the time.
For a Level 5 ability (DC 20), Level 5 bards under the same training would have 80% (no change, this one is keeping up with training) and 40% chances of making it work.
If you want to make it an auto-success for the one with max ranks, make the DC = 6+2*Level, instead.
I think this could work. Yes, it might allow access to higher level bardic music earlier on, but it also allows a chance of using the music without forcing putting ranks in Perform. As level progress, the one that doesn't put ranks in Perform will be less likely to use higher abilities. This makes sense ... if you don't train your performance, you shouldn't get great effects from your music.
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Robert, would it be enough for you if Jason just cut the rank requirments for Bardic Music effects and made them soly level-based? Then a bard could risk having fewer ranks.
Yes, thats exactly as I see it. The performances need a min level requirement (only), not a minimum skill rank requirement.
If the latter was removed, freeing up that skill point, I think thats a step in the right direction.
I applaud what Paizo has already done in making the DCs of their abilities hinged on level as opposed to ranks. This is just the final step in that direction needed IMO to be commensurate with the other classes and the mechanics for their class features.
And this is coming from someone who has NEVER played a bard - so I'm not even a bard enthusiast - but as DM I see players who play them, and I see it as something that needs changed.
To add to this: I still will advocate that the bard get some synergized benefit for those who DO want to spend skill points/ranks in perform - like those tumble for rogue, spellcraft for wizard, etc; like the suggestions I made originally:
A class feature to substitute Perform Ranks for Concentration based Spellcraft checks (consider that the bard can "sing" and "dance" his songs as opposed to casts them somatically), or substitute perform skill for Diplomacy - say he's trying to alter NPC attitude by serenading, or acting goofy comical etc. And finally earn 2x money for perform skill checks than other classes would.
Thanks for the thread referral - I'll check it out.
Robert
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A bard as written must maintain a full rank complement to that skill in order to even be able to USE the ability; not be better at it, or be optimally effective with it - just to USE it.So ... just a thought: Bardic music is tied to a Perform check rather than Perform ranks. In order to use the different varieties of music, require a Perform check, with the DC going appropriately higher for the higher levels of music (say, DC = 10+2*level where the bard gains access). Allow a bonus of bard level to the check.
For instance, a Level 1 ability could have a DC of 12. A lvl 1 bard with max ranks in perform, Cha 16 and no feats benefiting Perform would make that 80% of the time. A lvl 1 bard with no ranks in perform, Cha 16 and no applicable feats would make it 60% of the time.
For a Level 5 ability (DC 20), Level 5 bards under the same training would have 80% (no change, this one is keeping up with training) and 40% chances of making it work.
If you want to make it an auto-success for the one with max ranks, make the DC = 6+2*Level, instead.
I think this could work. Yes, it might allow access to higher level bardic music earlier on, but it also allows a chance of using the music without forcing putting ranks in Perform. As level progress, the one that doesn't put ranks in Perform will be less likely to use higher abilities. This makes sense ... if you don't train your performance, you shouldn't get great effects from your music.
No, thats not what I'm advocating at all! Do Rogues have to make a check to use their uncanny dodge? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can successfully cast Divine Favor? These are bards class abilities. You either have them, or you do not have them. The bardic performances still have a chance of success/failure if used against a target (just as a spell), but neither spells, or bardic performances require a check just to see if you can DO it!
If these are the bard's class abilities, then they should get to use them.
Barbarian Player: I'm going to rage and charge that dragon.
DM: roll your Intimidate check to see if you successfully psyche yourself up for your rage or not......
Robert
It's great to see so much active interest from someone who isn't even a bard enthusiast. I like the idea of some kind of skill synergy.
Bards used to have an ability to improve people's attitudes through performing. I don't know where that went, but it was a lot like what you're talking about with diplomacy.
As for Performance for Spellcraft, I'm leery. Many of us would like to see the bard escape from his artsy shackles and go back to being the jack-of-all-trades. Not to be the guy who continually redirects everybody to other threads, but my post on that is here: Bring back the Old School bard
Here, here Robert!
The problem is actually somewhat worse in PfRPG because of the fact that now some bard songs require different performance types. Thus, we bard lovers are taxed on multiple different fronts.
For my campaign, I declared that there is now only a single Perform skill. For every 2 ranks you take in it, you become proficient in an additional type of performance. In this way, there is still some customization involved without getting too ridiculous on the details.
In addition to changing the Perform skill like this, I'm considering granting the Bard an automatic 1 skill point per level in Perform.
To me, the combination of these two fixes accomplishes what we're seeking without a lot of new overhead being introduced. In fact, it would save space in the class description since we'd no longer need to mention the number of perform ranks needed for each ability, only the performance types.
Whatcha think?
I never liked bards in 3rd Ed, because they seemed spread far too thinly and had been given the illogical arcane healing spells. With all the knowledge boosts, I think they're actually more worthwhile.
No, thats not what I'm advocating at all! Do Rogues have to make a check to use their uncanny dodge? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can successfully cast Divine Favor?
I wasn't meaning to suggest that was your advocation ... it was mine.
Perhaps better questions would be: Do Rogues have to make a check to use their trapfinding? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can turn undead? (I honestly don't know on the last one. I haven't looked at the PF rules for channeling, yet.)
My suggestion was a middle road between always-on abilities and ranks-required abilities. It doesn't make sense to me to allow an effect that is performance based to work without involving performance somehow. Of course, if things were reflavored as per the trend in Fendin's Bring Back the Old School Bard thread, I'd have less of a problem with it.
Things shouldn't be immune to skills just be cause they are class features.
No, thats not what I'm advocating at all! Do Rogues have to make a check to use their uncanny dodge? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can successfully cast Divine Favor?I wasn't meaning to suggest that was your advocation ... it was mine.
Perhaps better questions would be: Do Rogues have to make a check to use their trapfinding? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can turn undead? (I honestly don't know on the last one. I haven't looked at the PF rules for channeling, yet.)
My suggestion was a middle road between always-on abilities and ranks-required abilities. It doesn't make sense to me to allow an effect that is performance based to work without involving performance somehow. Of course, if things were reflavored as per the trend in Fendin's Bring Back the Old School Bard thread, I'd have less of a problem with it.
Things shouldn't be immune to skills just be cause they are class features.
While the mechanics for channeling energy have been changed, a number of very relevant class features do use skills as a base. Rangers and Survival go hand in hand. Rogues can't find traps without Perception. Countering spells generally requires Spellcraft. The same is true of combat manuevers and certain feats, like Leaping Charge, Improved Feint, and Dazzling Display.
Removing all of a character's mechanics from skills is unnecessary, many characters have skills they use a lot. Gaiwecoor had some excellent math on how to make Perform relevant to the Bardic Music abilities. If Perform is going to to be relevant to what Bardic Music abilities can be used, this is not a bad way to go about it.
On top of this, the bard still has static abilities like spell-casting that don't require rolls. Nor is a bard truly required to keep maxing out Perform. They can stop putting ranks into it if they don't want the future abilities. Not a smart idea, but still an option.
Frankly, I think that the Bard needs additional class abilities to make themselves useful to a party. I've suggested a mechanic for this in another thread (Fendin linked for me already). Bardic music is a nice ability, linked to perform or otherwise, but it shouldn't be the Bard's only option.
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Perhaps better questions would be: Do Rogues have to make a check to use their trapfinding? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can turn undead? (I honestly don't know on the last one. I haven't looked at the PF rules for channeling, yet.)
They have to roll for their level of success; not IF they can activate it. Your suggestion was implying that a skill check be done first to see if the bard can actually activate his ability - which THEN most of them requires some other form of saving throw etc that may void the attempt. It's double-jeapordy.
A figther must roll his attack roll to hit his opponents' AC, but he doesn't have to roll a skill first to see IF he can swing his sword before he bothers with the attack roll....
Robert
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While the mechanics for channeling energy have been changed, a number of very relevant class features do use skills as a base. Rangers and Survival go hand in hand. Rogues can't find traps without Perception. Countering spells generally requires Spellcraft. The same is true of combat manuevers and certain feats, like Leaping Charge, Improved Feint, and Dazzling Display.
Removing all of a character's mechanics from skills is unnecessary, many characters have skills they use a lot. Gaiwecoor had some excellent math on how to make Perform relevant to the Bardic Music abilities. If Perform is going to to be relevant to what Bardic Music abilities can be used, this is not a bad way to go about it.
But most of these options for other classes have other options available to the player, in order to facilitate making these abilities more effective - that doens't force them to spend max ranks on them.
There are feats: Skill focus, or the many feats that grant bonus to two skills, there are magic items such as Lens of Detection, etc; and there are other racial mods, spells like heroism, etc, all can affect a skill positivel to make a person more apt to succeed while not forcing the person to allocate max ranks.
Sure you're going to get better chances of success with continued allocation of ranks to a particular skill - but in the bard's case there is no option other than - "put 1 rank here at every level, or you can't even utilize your class features!"
I can, for instance, make a halfling rogue of say 6th level, with an excellent Stealth score.....and spend but 2 ranks in it.
I feel that forcing the bard into having to put ranks into a skill just to use their class features is essentially robbing them of a skill rank each level.
Either divorce the prereq of the skill rank for each class feature and make the skill something else for bards (as I have suggested various means of that) OR have a class feature at first level that reads:
Elite Performer (Ex): A bard never needs to spend skill points in Perform skill. Treat his bard level as the number of ranks he has invested in this skill.
(caveat: the skill should no long require more than one kind of perform.)
Robert
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Here, here Robert!
The problem is actually somewhat worse in PfRPG because of the fact that now some bard songs require different performance types. Thus, we bard lovers are taxed on multiple different fronts.
For my campaign, I declared that there is now only a single Perform skill. For every 2 ranks you take in it, you become proficient in an additional type of performance. In this way, there is still some customization involved without getting too ridiculous on the details.
I actually touched on that in my original post - about the fact that there are more than one type of perform now - each needed to be invested seperately.
Robert
But most of these options for other classes have other options available to the player, in order to facilitate making these abilities more effective - that doens't force them to spend max ranks on them.
There are feats: Skill focus, or the many feats that grant bonus to two skills, there are magic items such as Lens of Detection, etc; and there are other racial mods, spells like heroism, etc, all can affect a skill positivel to make a person more apt to succeed while not forcing the person to allocate max ranks.
Sure you're going to get better chances of success with continued allocation of ranks to a particular skill - but in the bard's case there is no option other than - "put 1 rank here at every level, or you can't even utilize your class features!"
I can, for instance, make a halfling rogue of say 6th level, with an excellent Stealth score.....and spend but 2 ranks in it.
I feel that forcing the bard into having to put ranks into a skill just to use their class features is essentially robbing them of a skill rank each level.
I believe you have misinterpreted Gaiwecoor's suggestion. He was advocating making Bardic music dependant on a skill check, rather than having a required number of ranks. This is much more in keeping with Track, Trapfinding, Concentration, (as well as Psionic classes who use Autohypnosis, Truenamers who use Truespeech, etc. etc.)
I agree with you that having required ranks in perform is rather unfair, and a mechanic not really found anywhere else. If the ability is to be related to a skill, it should be a skill check.
Following that thought, the DC mechanic for the skill checks should incorporate whether or not something allows a saving throw. Truenamers are a good cautionary tale: A truenamer could almost never harm an enemy because they had to not only beat a high skill DC to affect them, but then the enemy would get a saving throw with a ridicuously low save DC.
At some point, Bardic Music needs to be related to the Perform Skill. It doesn't make sense for a bard with one rank in perform being able to slay enemies with a song. Not that the slaying enemies with a song makes much sense to begin with.
I don't like the idea of giving bards ranks in the skill for free, because that's the same thing as removing the need for ranks in perform entirely.
Instead, let it be DC based, give the bard the option of boosting perform with feats and ability scores, and sooner rather than later they can reach a point where they autosucceed on their peform checks. It lets those who want to max out perform go to town, but also allows bards to use those precious skill points elsewhere.
But most of these options for other classes have other options available to the player, in order to facilitate making these abilities more effective - that doens't force them to spend max ranks on them.
There are feats: Skill focus, or the many feats that grant bonus to two skills, there are magic items such as Lens of Detection, etc; and there are other racial mods, spells like heroism, etc, all can affect a skill positivel to make a person more apt to succeed while not forcing the person to allocate max ranks.
Sure you're going to get better chances of success with continued allocation of ranks to a particular skill - but in the bard's case there is no option other than - "put 1 rank here at every level, or you can't even utilize your class features!"
I can, for instance, make a halfling rogue of say 6th level, with an excellent Stealth score.....and spend but 2 ranks in it.
I feel that forcing the bard into having to put ranks into a skill just to use their class features is essentially robbing them of a skill rank each level.
I believe you have misinterpreted Gaiwecoor's suggestion. He was advocating making Bardic music dependant on a skill check, rather than having a required number of ranks. This is much more in keeping with Track, Trapfinding, Concentration, (as well as Psionic classes who use Autohypnosis, Truenamers who use Truespeech, etc. etc.)
I agree with you that having required ranks in perform is rather unfair, and a mechanic not really found anywhere else. If the ability is to be related to a skill, it should be a skill check.
***
This is precisely what I was saying. I don't think the ability should be related to the number of ranks a character has in perform. I do think it should be Perform-related; via a skill check. As Brother Willi said, this is in keeping with trapfinding, tracking and a number of other class features. The check can be modified by several things, including not only ranks, but ability modifiers, feats and magic items. This should help separate the "must always max the skill" feeling, but keep the tie to the performance.
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This is precisely what I was saying. I don't think the ability should be related to the number of ranks a character has in perform. I do think it should be Perform-related; via a skill check. As Brother Willi said, this is in keeping with trapfinding, tracking and a number of other class features. The check can be modified by several things, including not...But most of these options for other classes have other options available to the player, in order to facilitate making these abilities more effective - that doens't force them to spend max ranks on them.
There are feats: Skill focus, or the many feats that grant bonus to two skills, there are magic items such as Lens of Detection, etc; and there are other racial mods, spells like heroism, etc, all can affect a skill positivel to make a person more apt to succeed while not forcing the person to allocate max ranks.
Sure you're going to get better chances of success with continued allocation of ranks to a particular skill - but in the bard's case there is no option other than - "put 1 rank here at every level, or you can't even utilize your class features!"
I can, for instance, make a halfling rogue of say 6th level, with an excellent Stealth score.....and spend but 2 ranks in it.
I feel that forcing the bard into having to put ranks into a skill just to use their class features is essentially robbing them of a skill rank each level.
I believe you have misinterpreted Gaiwecoor's suggestion. He was advocating making Bardic music dependant on a skill check, rather than having a required number of ranks. This is much more in keeping with Track, Trapfinding, Concentration, (as well as Psionic classes who use Autohypnosis, Truenamers who use Truespeech, etc. etc.)
I agree with you that having required ranks in perform is rather unfair, and a mechanic not really found anywhere else. If the ability is to be related to a skill, it should be a skill check.
***
I will admit that there is logic in what you're saying - and there are instances in other classes repertoires of having similar mechanics (having a skill check to determine the success of a class feature), but USUALLY those skill-driven class features are not the central focus of the class abilities.
Rogues main ability is the sneak attack. Most of the time skills aren't the main factor in that. Clerics is their turning and spells, Barbarians is their rage, Rangers their combat styles and favored enemy, Druids their wildshape, Paladins their smite evil and immunities etc.
In the case of the bard, the perform-based class features are pretty much their MAIN repertoire.
I would be on-board with your suggestions if the skill-driven abilities were their "secondary" or ancillary abilities - such as Trapfinding is for rogues, tracking is for rangers, or casting defensively/spellcraft is for wizards. But not to determine the effectiveness of the main and core features of a class.
Robert
I will admit that there is logic in what you're saying - and there are instances in other classes repertoires of having similar mechanics (having a skill check to determine the success of a class feature), but USUALLY those skill-driven class features are not the central focus of the class abilities.
Rogues main ability is the sneak attack. Most of the time skills aren't the main factor in that. Clerics is their turning and spells, Barbarians is their rage, Rangers their combat styles and favored enemy, Druids their wildshape, Paladins their smite evil and immunities etc.
In the case of the bard, the perform-based class features are pretty much their MAIN repertoire.
...
I think I see what you're getting at a bit more clearly, now. This makes me think about a concept I have seen in several other threads, recently - namely, the thought that the bard should be the jack of all trades, master of none. While bardic music is certainly a prominent feature of the bard, I don't know if I would call it their Main feature. (Definitely one of the top two, don't get me wrong, here.) They also have decent spellcasting. They also have fairly high skill points and class skills along with it. It seems to me that the bard is intended to be a skilled character, and I do not see a problem with involving those skills in one of their primary class features.
Certainly, there are styles of play that make the bardic music the primary feature. There are also styles that make spellcasting the primary feature. Whenever a person decides to focus on one particular aspect of a character, another is sure to falter somewhat.
I am not trying to say that we need a limiting mechanic to harm the bard's versatility ... I am merely saying that I think a use of bardic music tied to use of a skill would fit the concept of the class.
... but YES to bringing perform as it was in 3.0... where every new rank give you a new type of performance... we have 'Linguistics' already as an example
I could definitely get behind this. It makes some existing 3.5 feats obsolete (Versatile Performer, for example), but I wouldn't worry about that.
Creative Director
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Bards are more than "bardic performance," though. A bard who doesn't take Perform ranks can still use his bardic knowledge and his spells and his weapon and armor stuff. He won't be as well-rounded and number-crunched as a bard who DOES take perform, but I put it to you that if you're playing a bard who hates the Perform skill... maybe you should look into playing a sorcerer or a rogue or an illusionist.
Sure, tying the bard's performance abilities to the Perform skill STRONGLY encourages a bard character to take ranks in Perform, but that's what a bard character should WANT to do.
A variant bard that doesn't build off the Perform skill could be cool; maybe a diplomacy-based bard whose "bardic performance" is based on Diplomacy, or a circus performer type bard whose "bardic performance" is based on Acrobatics. But those should be variants. Their place is in another book down the road after the PF RPG is out, a book like "The Pathfinder Bard' or "Pathfinder Scoundrels" or something like that. A splat book type product. The core game isn't the place to drastically rebuild the focus and niche of an established character class; it's the place to establish that baseline. And that means a bard that uses the Perform skill to do stuff, in my opinion.
I have a hard time understanding why you'd want to separate bards from perform. Just look at the definition of bard:
1. One of an ancient Celtic order of minstrel poets who composed and recited verses celebrating the legendary exploits of chieftains and heroes.
2. A poet, especially a lyric poet.
The bard, by definition, should never divorce from that concept. IMO
if you're playing a bard who hates the Perform skill... maybe you should look into playing a sorcerer or a rogue or an illusionist.
Taken from Five Relevant Bard Issues:
Having to take Perform isn't so much of a problem as the fact that the Perform skill doesn't actually do anything. It doesn't change disposition, it doesn't impress an audience, it doesn't gain glory, all it actually does is replicate a Profession skill.
If the Perform skill meant something, or if Bards simply received bonus skill points to spend on Perform, it would be more digestible.
As Pathfinder Beta stands, the Perform requirement makes the bard go from a 6+Int skill class into a 4+Int skill class. That's not right.
-Matt
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Might as well hit all the bard threads while I'm riled up...
I agree that bard's should have options other than taking perform. The 2e bard was my favorite class because it was the red mage of D&D - a great generalist class that could do a little bit of everything. These classes are great fifth men or for solo games. The 3e bard struck me as a step back from what I liked about the bard - it put the emphasis back on the goofier elements that never appealed to me. While I do think the singing/dancing bard should be available, every bard I've ever seen has been of the "inspiring oratory" type because my players find that to be interesting and heroic (at least when compared with the singing and dancing bard, which we find to be silly and obnoxious).
Anyway, while I think there is justification for saying the bard should be only about singing/dancing/performing, I think narrowing the focus that far does injustice to the possibilities of the class. The jack of all trades character class is a fun class to play, and I'd really like to be able to choose that without having to drag a harp through the dungeon. Open the bard up a little, provide players the option to do away with perform if they want the toolkit class without the song and dance flavor.
I guess the question is: what type of player chooses the bard class? I don't think the combat-optimization crew is going to choose the bard because it is a generalist class. So, that leaves two groups of people, those who want the roleplaying aspects of the bard and those who want to play a generalist but could care less about the flavor. I think it's possible to open the class up some more for that second group of people, and that means allowing for a viable build that does not require singing and dancing. I suppose the inspiring oratory version of the Perform skill gets you most of the way there, but I still wouldn't mind having a bardic path that allows for a good solid generalist character class that doesn't require the performing arts.
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Bards are more than "bardic performance," though. A bard who doesn't take Perform ranks can still use his bardic knowledge and his spells and his weapon and armor stuff. He won't be as well-rounded and number-crunched as a bard who DOES take perform, but I put it to you that if you're playing a bard who hates the Perform skill... maybe you should look into playing a sorcerer or a rogue or an illusionist.
Sure, tying the bard's performance abilities to the Perform skill STRONGLY encourages a bard character to take ranks in Perform, but that's what a bard character should WANT to do.
With all due respect, James, STRONGLY is unstated even.
I'm not advocating that a bard NOT take perform skill - just that the class features not have a minimum amount needed to use them.
If the skill actually did something worth spending those skill points on, it would be easier to swallow.
What I have been suggesting and advocating is having the skill do something that augments or enhances the abilities that the bard would get, just from being a bard; so as to still reward those bards who spend more in that skill. But that the bard as a general nature of the class be already capable of "magical performances" unrelated to the skill itself - so as to not marry the two.
In other words - just be being a bard - he knows how to perform these magical performances. Just like a cleric automatically knows how to cast spells just by being a cleric - spellcraft, knowledge religions/arcance etc can give him benefits during his spellcasting, but the ability to use the spells is not mutually inclusive.
As written, the class features of the bard dwindles his 6 skill points per level to 5 or even 4 - for a class skill that really doesn't do anything except create a benchmark.
Robert
Bards are more than "bardic performance," though. A bard who doesn't take Perform ranks can still use his bardic knowledge and his spells and his weapon and armor stuff. He won't be as well-rounded and number-crunched as a bard who DOES take perform, but I put it to you that if you're playing a bard who hates the Perform skill... maybe you should look into playing a sorcerer or a rogue or an illusionist.
Sure, tying the bard's performance abilities to the Perform skill STRONGLY encourages a bard character to take ranks in Perform, but that's what a bard character should WANT to do.
A variant bard that doesn't build off the Perform skill could be cool; maybe a diplomacy-based bard whose "bardic performance" is based on Diplomacy, or a circus performer type bard whose "bardic performance" is based on Acrobatics. But those should be variants. Their place is in another book down the road after the PF RPG is out, a book like "The Pathfinder Bard' or "Pathfinder Scoundrels" or something like that. A splat book type product. The core game isn't the place to drastically rebuild the focus and niche of an established character class; it's the place to establish that baseline. And that means a bard that uses the Perform skill to do stuff, in my opinion.
I agree with the notion of the bard being tied into perform. But I would like to add that currently the bard is the only class I know of where their class abilities are directly tied to the number of ranks that they have in the skill. This is an oddity that doesn't sit well with me, I'd rather see it as a "make a check to cause the effect," as I argued above.
So the problem here isn't with the bard class needing perform as much as it is the Perform skill needing to have more stuff to do?
Correct.
As of Beta, the skill Perform does nothing except drain skill points from a Bard, nothing that Profession(Performer) replicates. So either the Perform skill needs to actually do something, or the skill requirement really needs to go away, assuming the design intention is not to give the Bard less skill points than the Ranger.
-Matt
For my campaign, I declared that there is now only a single Perform skill. For every 2 ranks you take in it, you become proficient in an additional type of performance. In this way, there is still some customization involved without getting too ridiculous on the details.
I'm not a big fan of a lot of the other suggestions here but this one makes a lot of sense. One perform skill, as you add ranks you add types of performances. At 1 rank you choose then every 2 ranks after you choose another talent: (orate, dance, sing, percussion, string... etc).
Forcing bards to take 1 perform skill I can deal with, forcing them to take 2 or three? Not so much. Give them some ranks for knowledge checks and rogue type skills.
In addition to changing the Perform skill like this, I'm considering granting the Bard an automatic 1 skill point per level in Perform.
I would say this would be a good alternate, instead of the first suggestion. Then bards would be guaranteed to be good at one type of performance but would have to invest to get good at others.
So the problem here isn't with the bard class needing perform as much as it is the Perform skill needing to have more stuff to do?
That would be sweet, Perform actually being legit useful.
So the problem here isn't with the bard class needing perform as much as it is the Perform skill needing to have more stuff to do?
Correct. I'd also advocate something that pathfinder started, in which various perform skills give different abilities. So your singing bard can do one thing, your dancing bard can do another, and your singing-dancing bard can do both. This gives players some options.
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So the problem here isn't with the bard class needing perform as much as it is the Perform skill needing to have more stuff to do?
yes, indeed!
For my campaign, I declared that there is now only a single Perform skill. For every 2 ranks you take in it, you become proficient in an additional type of performance. In this way, there is still some customization involved without getting too ridiculous on the details.I'm not a big fan of a lot of the other suggestions here but this one makes a lot of sense. One perform skill, as you add ranks you add types of performances. At 1 rank you choose then every 2 ranks after you choose another talent: (orate, dance, sing, percussion, string... etc).
Forcing bards to take 1 perform skill I can deal with, forcing them to take 2 or three? Not so much. Give them some ranks for knowledge checks and rogue type skills.
In addition to changing the Perform skill like this, I'm considering granting the Bard an automatic 1 skill point per level in Perform.I would say this would be a good alternate, instead of the first suggestion. Then bards would be guaranteed to be good at one type of performance but would have to invest to get good at others.
any of this 2 solutions work well for me
the problem that giving something ELSE to do to Perform() or Professio(performer) will need to balance it in such a way that not because other characters have perform they are able to do the same things than a bard...
that is the thing what give you a high skill lets say in dancing or singing...
in a Campaign using a variant rule in Alternity, my character has lots of Dancing skill... so the DM allows her to have an easier time dodging, making acrobacies, etc; she alsohas ahigh number in singing so she has a easier time mymicring people and using social skill where her beautiful voice might be involved...
this existed in 3.x inthe form of synergies... now it exist no more...so we need something different without taking away the Bardic Perform from the Bard (this just because it has been mentioned that Pathfinder intendsto leave this as the central characteristic for the Bard)
Thanks for the support Dennis & Montalve.
Since Bardic Performance no longer sets the save DC via the Perform skill, it seems like an odd hold-over to require a specific number of ranks to use the class abilities. Furthermore, all Bards gain the same exact performance effects. If there were different song talent-trees to select from, I could see the higher-powered effects having a requirement in order to take them, but presently that's not the case.
With this in mind, I have a 3rd idea:
Remove the rank requirements for the various performances. Have only a single Perform skill with ranks determining the number of performance types in which you are proficient (i.e. 1 per 2 ranks).
In this way, Bards will still have a good reason to take the Perform skill since it will give them a broader range of ways in which to employ their effects. However, they will not absolutely have to keep it maxed.
Along with this, we would need for Perform to actually DO something beyond just making money (Profession already covers that). My suggestion is that just as Diplomacy can adjust the attitude of others, Perform could be used to adjust the mood of others. Performance types that are not strictly language-based might even be able to affect non-intelligent creatures (i.e. Music soothes the savage beast).
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I definitely like the idea of Perform being able to do something (if nothing else, serve as a profession check), but I'm kind of against the idea of using Skill DCs intead of Perform ranks to determine Bardic Music abilities.
I definitely don't like the idea that a Bard with a higher Charisma score, or Skill Focus (Perform), or Masterwork Lute, or Magic Item of +10 to Perform, will be gaining Class Abilities faster than a Bard without.
With a Pathfinder Human Bard, blowing a bunch of his point-buy into Charisma, a 20 Charisma, Skill Focus (Perform) and a Trait that gives another +1 Perform, is not out of the question, allowing that Bard to start with +13 to his Perform check. Normally, this wouldn't be an optimal use of point-buy or the human bonus feat, but if this Bard is able to use music that a non-optimized Bard wouldn't get until 6th to 8th level, it seems like a potential issue.
Additionally, having it based on a skill check means that a Bard becomes saddled with the possibility of *failing* to activate his Class Ability, by rolling crappy! The possible complication of botched rolls of 1 or 'critical success' rolls of 20 also could rise up for those who are fans of critical systems.
I much prefer Ranks, or just flat out level requirements, to the idea of basing it on Skill DC, because DC is far too easy to jack up. "Yeah, the Rogue, Cleric and Sorcerer all spent one point on Perform, and took 10 on Aid Other attempts at my Perform check. So this round I can do a Bardic Music that I normally wouldn't be able to use for four more levels... Thanks talentless newbs!"
The requirement to know two different types of Perform? Phooey on that noise.
I'll add something from the rule book to add in Robert Brambley's defense.
Rangers get the ability: Track at first level, which adds 1/2 their character level to survival skill checks to follow or identify tracks. In other words, they don't have to have a single rank in survival to have at least an average chance in using this skill.
At the very least, Bards should gain something that resembles this model in terms of their bardic music ability, allowing them to be mediocre in performance checks or exceptional if they choose to invest skill points into perform.
Correct James. I think making it do something like 3E did would be wonderful (as someone else pointed out). Maybe not exactly what 3E did, but PF could take a cue from it.
Keep the 3.5 bard abilities open for all perform skills (countersong with dance? Why not, you perform an arythmic dance against the mesmerizing song of a harpy or something...) and just add some stylisch and usefull songs/abilities for different perform skills. As the player can only use one perform ability at the time, this would mean options, but should not be too overpowering. *shrugs*
A short table witch ability works with a specific perform skill would be useful, anyway.
EDIT: Just realized, there are only two groups of performance as is... silly me. Still, additional performance related abilities would be nifty and would make the cost for a second (or even third) performance skill worthwhile.
What if the bardic performance abilities became ONLY level dependent (like barbarian rage powers). The perform skill determines the performance requirements (line of sight, understand language, able to hear).
And then we use the perform skill like the spellcraft skill?
Most bardic performances continue over several rounds. If the bard takes damage or is effected by some non-damaging effect (like being blinded or deafened) they need to make a perform check to continue the performance.
It makes the selection and upkeep of perform skill important (since it determines if the bard needs to be up front dancing or in the back singing and how rough a crowd they can maintain their composure in front of) but not required (or no more required then spellcraft for a cleric or wizard) especially since perform is an untrained skill and bards will have a good CHA, some CHA enhancing items.
No change to the basic perform skill required.
Just a thought.
Cheers
And then we use the perform skill like the spellcraft skill?
Most bardic performances continue over several rounds. If the bard takes damage or is effected by some non-damaging effect (like being blinded or deafened) they need to make a perform check to continue the performance.
On the limited issue of fixing the fact that Bards generally must concentrate to maintain a song, this is an elegant solution. We've already touched on the contration to maintain Inspire Courage, for example, is barely worth it.
Instead, have the effect end when the song ends, let the song continue without the need for concentration, and if the bard takes damages, casts a spell with verbal or somatic components (depending on their perform type), uses another bardic music ability, or is otherwise interrupted. Perform can be used like spellcraft to ignore damage or overcome harsh effects. Suddenly the bard has more use in combat, and there's a reason for opponents to target a singing bard.
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And then we use the perform skill like the spellcraft skill?
Most bardic performances continue over several rounds. If the bard takes damage or is effected by some non-damaging effect (like being blinded or deafened) they need to make a perform check to continue the performance.
On the limited issue of fixing the fact that Bards generally must concentrate to maintain a song, this is an elegant solution. We've already touched on the contration to maintain Inspire Courage, for example, is barely worth it.
Instead, have the effect end when the song ends, let the song continue without the need for concentration, and if the bard takes damages, casts a spell with verbal or somatic components (depending on their perform type), uses another bardic music ability, or is otherwise interrupted. Perform can be used like spellcraft to ignore damage or overcome harsh effects. Suddenly the bard has more use in combat, and there's a reason for opponents to target a singing bard.
Yes, that was exactly my suggestion per se - along with Laith's emphasis that Perform could be used like Diplomacy to alter the attitude of an NCP.
Both that and the substitution for a concentration check when damaged (to continue performing) are options I suggested in my original post - to give the skill some substance, and bards will often times opt to invest in the skill - but not be forced to just to activate their abilities.
And bards earning double gold value for perform skills used for such purposes was the last of my three practical uses of the skill interaction with the class.
Thanks for the support, guys..
Robert
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I'll add something from the rule book to add in Robert Brambley's defense.
Rangers get the ability: Track at first level, which adds 1/2 their character level to survival skill checks to follow or identify tracks. In other words, they don't have to have a single rank in survival to have at least an average chance in using this skill.
At the very least, Bards should gain something that resembles this model in terms of their bardic music ability, allowing them to be mediocre in performance checks or exceptional if they choose to invest skill points into perform.
Thanks Anthony. Very true observation. I appreciate the support.
Robert
I'll add something from the rule book to add in Robert Brambley's defense.
Rangers get the ability: Track at first level, which adds 1/2 their character level to survival skill checks to follow or identify tracks. In other words, they don't have to have a single rank in survival to have at least an average chance in using this skill.
At the very least, Bards should gain something that resembles this model in terms of their bardic music ability, allowing them to be mediocre in performance checks or exceptional if they choose to invest skill points into perform.
Thanks Anthony. Very true observation. I appreciate the support.
Robert
Doing this, coupled with making the Perform skill meaningful on some level, would be a very simple step toward making the bard class appeal to players who want a bard who doesn't focus almost exclusively on the the class' musical ability.
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mmmm
i like how the bardic performances are divided, but certainly the need to have at least 2 performs (which not always are congruent one with another) is what hits me...
actually thebard gets a bit more freedom, that says the barbarian or the rogue who get rage powers and talents but they NEED to CHOOSE which rage power or talent they get
Bard canget both powers of his level, she just need to spent the double of skills...
he other option of course is go like the rogue and the barbarian, where bards would earn one bardic perform or the other when reaching the level, no perform needed... but only one, they can use it however they like, if they want to have one of the earlir level powers they didn't can decide to use have it instead of tone of the more powerful options...
gah! suddenly i am with Jason on how it works and understand why... so... i LIKE how bardic performance works... i just want more options for the price of the Perform Skill... or as a few of us have mentioned... a few more performs as we grow in ranks
that will make this captain-bard happy enough?
I definitely like the idea of Perform being able to do something (if nothing else, serve as a profession check), but I'm kind of against the idea of using Skill DCs intead of Perform ranks to determine Bardic Music abilities.
I definitely don't like the idea that a Bard with a higher Charisma score, or Skill Focus (Perform), or Masterwork Lute, or Magic Item of +10 to Perform, will be gaining Class Abilities faster than a Bard without.
Was this in response to what I said? If so, then perhaps I need to clarify because that's not at all what I was suggesting:
In addition to whatever we make Perform actually DO (i.e. mood-adjustment, concentration-type skill, etc.), I was suggesting that with my solution, having lots of ranks in Perform would simply open up the ability to use more instruments or performance types (i.e. acting, oratory, stringed, vocals, etc.).
I was not suggesting that ranks in Perform should give access to bardic performance class features. In fact, I said such class features should be based solely off of level requirements unless we form bardic talent trees (in which case I could see a case for having a level requirement and a perform rank requirement).