Gaiwecoor's page

... but YES to bringing perform as it was in 3.0... where every new rank give you a new type of performance... we have 'Linguistics' already as an example

I could definitely get behind this. It makes some existing 3.5 feats obsolete (Versatile Performer, for example), but I wouldn't worry about that.

I will admit that there is logic in what you're saying - and there are instances in other classes repertoires of having similar mechanics (having a skill check to determine the success of a class feature), but USUALLY those skill-driven class features are not the central focus of the class abilities.

Rogues main ability is the sneak attack. Most of the time skills aren't the main factor in that. Clerics is their turning and spells, Barbarians is their rage, Rangers their combat styles and favored enemy, Druids their wildshape, Paladins their smite evil and immunities etc.

In the case of the bard, the perform-based class features are pretty much their MAIN repertoire.

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I think I see what you're getting at a bit more clearly, now. This makes me think about a concept I have seen in several other threads, recently - namely, the thought that the bard should be the jack of all trades, master of none. While bardic music is certainly a prominent feature of the bard, I don't know if I would call it their Main feature. (Definitely one of the top two, don't get me wrong, here.) They also have decent spellcasting. They also have fairly high skill points and class skills along with it. It seems to me that the bard is intended to be a skilled character, and I do not see a problem with involving those skills in one of their primary class features.

Certainly, there are styles of play that make the bardic music the primary feature. There are also styles that make spellcasting the primary feature. Whenever a person decides to focus on one particular aspect of a character, another is sure to falter somewhat.

I am not trying to say that we need a limiting mechanic to harm the bard's versatility ... I am merely saying that I think a use of bardic music tied to use of a skill would fit the concept of the class.

Robert Brambley wrote:

But most of these options for other classes have other options available to the player, in order to facilitate making these abilities more effective - that doens't force them to spend max ranks on them.

There are feats: Skill focus, or the many feats that grant bonus to two skills, there are magic items such as Lens of Detection, etc; and there are other racial mods, spells like heroism, etc, all can affect a skill positivel to make a person more apt to succeed while not forcing the person to allocate max ranks.

Sure you're going to get better chances of success with continued allocation of ranks to a particular skill - but in the bard's case there is no option other than - "put 1 rank here at every level, or you can't even utilize your class features!"

I can, for instance, make a halfling rogue of say 6th level, with an excellent Stealth score.....and spend but 2 ranks in it.

I feel that forcing the bard into having to put ranks into a skill just to use their class features is essentially robbing them of a skill rank each level.

I believe you have misinterpreted Gaiwecoor's suggestion. He was advocating making Bardic music dependant on a skill check, rather than having a required number of ranks. This is much more in keeping with Track, Trapfinding, Concentration, (as well as Psionic classes who use Autohypnosis, Truenamers who use Truespeech, etc. etc.)

I agree with you that having required ranks in perform is rather unfair, and a mechanic not really found anywhere else. If the ability is to be related to a skill, it should be a skill check.

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This is precisely what I was saying. I don't think the ability should be related to the number of ranks a character has in perform. I do think it should be Perform-related; via a skill check. As Brother Willi said, this is in keeping with trapfinding, tracking and a number of other class features. The check can be modified by several things, including not only ranks, but ability modifiers, feats and magic items. This should help separate the "must always max the skill" feeling, but keep the tie to the performance.

Varthanna wrote:

I would just like to say that Im strongly in favor of anything that increases the "jack of all trades, master of none" feel of the bard, and less of the "Brave, brave Sir Robin" minstrel feel, if that is where this discussion is going to go.

That is exactly where I hope it will go! I would love to hear suggestions on how to improve the list or tweak the mechanic. I think there's a lot of good ways we can boost up our favorite Dungeon Handyman.

This is exactly where I thought it was going from the first post, as well. You are presenting a few more options. Nothing huge, just minor additions that can help the versatility of a class that's meant to be versatile. As far as I can tell, it's looking like a good start.

No, thats not what I'm advocating at all! Do Rogues have to make a check to use their uncanny dodge? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can successfully cast Divine Favor?

I wasn't meaning to suggest that was your advocation ... it was mine.

Perhaps better questions would be: Do Rogues have to make a check to use their trapfinding? Do clerics have to roll to see if they can turn undead? (I honestly don't know on the last one. I haven't looked at the PF rules for channeling, yet.)

My suggestion was a middle road between always-on abilities and ranks-required abilities. It doesn't make sense to me to allow an effect that is performance based to work without involving performance somehow. Of course, if things were reflavored as per the trend in Fendin's Bring Back the Old School Bard thread, I'd have less of a problem with it.

Things shouldn't be immune to skills just be cause they are class features.

A bard as written must maintain a full rank complement to that skill in order to even be able to USE the ability; not be better at it, or be optimally effective with it - just to USE it.

So ... just a thought: Bardic music is tied to a Perform check rather than Perform ranks. In order to use the different varieties of music, require a Perform check, with the DC going appropriately higher for the higher levels of music (say, DC = 10+2*level where the bard gains access). Allow a bonus of bard level to the check.

For instance, a Level 1 ability could have a DC of 12. A lvl 1 bard with max ranks in perform, Cha 16 and no feats benefiting Perform would make that 80% of the time. A lvl 1 bard with no ranks in perform, Cha 16 and no applicable feats would make it 60% of the time.

For a Level 5 ability (DC 20), Level 5 bards under the same training would have 80% (no change, this one is keeping up with training) and 40% chances of making it work.

If you want to make it an auto-success for the one with max ranks, make the DC = 6+2*Level, instead.

I think this could work. Yes, it might allow access to higher level bardic music earlier on, but it also allows a chance of using the music without forcing putting ranks in Perform. As level progress, the one that doesn't put ranks in Perform will be less likely to use higher abilities. This makes sense ... if you don't train your performance, you shouldn't get great effects from your music.

Stripping down the Bard's flavor text is a good idea. The less flavor that the rules dictate, the more room there is left for originality and personalization.

This is a tricky point. There is always room for originality, but there are those that do not have the framework for that originality. I have some nephews I intend to introduce to the game, through Pathfinder. If I hand them a book without much flavor text and say "be creative," I'm making it very difficult for them to understand what all of those tables mean. We need a solid framework - the flavor - for people to build from. Once they get to the point where they can come up with their own flavor, a reasonable DM will allow the flavor to be adjusted accordingly.

That said, I think some of the ideas presented here do that fairly well. It even encourages coming up with your own flavor. Brother Willi's suggestion that the bard has a focus does this; the wandering minstrel has his lute, the sage has the book of poetic saga, the arcane dabbler has a spellbook.

... it's just that, in that balance, it never becomes great at anything. And that's ok. I always tell people considering playing bards that they will never be 'awesome/cool/fantastic', the way a rogue or wizard might, but that they will always be useful. And in this regard, some players LIKE the bard a great deal. Right now, it's a great utility/support character. I don't see why everything has to be 'badass' in order to be playable.

I don't think that's what Brother Willi is suggesting at all. The bard should be the master of versatility. 1d6 of sneak attack dice or rage 1/day wouldn't throw the bard into the 'awesome/cool/fantastic,' as far as sneak attack goes. It does, however, add to the versatility of the class. You know ... the one area where the bard actually should be awesome/cool/fantastic. The bard would never come close to meeting the other classes with respect to these abilities, but it lets the bard have a little bit of skill in various areas, whereas right now the bard can ... inspire courage.

Im not entirely sure about the perception bonus, even though I like it, but I am absolutely positive on the automatic perception check for traps nearby.

The really tricky bit about the perception bonus comes in with backward compatibility. In 3.5, a lvl 10 rogue with maxed ranks in search/disable device and INT 14 would have +15 to the check (barring skill focus and the like). In Pathfinder, the same rogue would have +20. That means either the trap is ludicrously easy, or it needs to have a higher DC. Either way, it doesn't flow quite right. That's when you have to prioritize what's important in the game: fitting in with other 3.5 material, "fixing" the system (whether or not it's a fix/needs fixing is up for debate), of finding some middle ground.

I'm not pushing any major mechanical change here, just a change in flavor.

This.

I wouldn't take it quite as far as you have, though. Personally, I like the concept of music as magic. Go pick up your copy of the Silmarillion (you know you have one). Middle Earth was created by music. There are cultures where the elders bless their people by chanting song. I have yet to find a good reference to magic streaming forth while somebody strums a harp and primps himself, however.

If we remove the stigma of the bard as the embodiment of all that is "corny," as you said (and I agree ... that is where it currently stands), there are some great concepts that come out of the class. I even see the jack-of-all-trades as being part of this. By melding with the harmonies surrounding the character, they are able to utilize abilities that others would never be able to attempt.

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I'd say let the Trapfinding we know now go the way of Track. Let everyone discover and disarm any trap he likes (and is skilled enough to discover and disarm).

To let rogues stay the masters of traps, change Trapfinding. I see two possibilities:

Half your rogue level to perception checks to find traps as well as disable device checks to disarm them.

Give rogues an automatic check if they get within 10 feet of a trap, just like elves and secret doors.
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Absolutely. It's never made sense to me that a Ranger (who is supposedly skilled to search for things on the ground) would never be able to notice a trap set in the floor. Why shouldn't they? The bonus to the skills for a Rogue keeps it as the supreme trapfinder in the group, but doesn't oust others from the possibility.