Giving the monk the ability to inflict damage in top of his maneuver will make him a better fighter than giving him good bab progression.
He already has the equivalent of good bab for combat maneuvers. It's like giving him the best of both worlds.
I have a player who play a monk in a regular campaign, and it really becomes very good by tripping all the time, and making a lot of opportunity attacks. With Pathfinder RPG, his chances of tripping have improved, with almost no chances no be tripped himself (5 or 10%). And this by tripping melee npc... Imagine what he could do on enemies with lesser bab...
My suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack."
That one small change makes a world of difference: the monk's medium BAB is no longer holding him back; he can just damage opponents by performing combat maneuvers, which ignore AC. This makes his attacks more likely to hit; gives him a reasonable, more reliable damage output; and even gives him a clear party role (combat maneuver guy, since he has little reason not to perform combat maneuvers at every available opportunity).
As an added bonus, the proposed change allows monks to perform classic wuxia-type stunts that resemble combat maneuvers, but sound as though they should also inflict some sort of damage: bull rushing by kicking the opponent in the chest; disarming by violently twisting an arm; overrunning by climbing someone like a ladder, kicking off on their face to jump clear to the other side; tripping by smashing a kneecap with a powerful kick; etc.
All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.
Now that is a good suggestion.
I like.
My suggestion for a fix that leaves BAB intact is to append the following text to maneuver training: "In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack."
That one small change makes a world of difference: the monk's medium BAB is no longer holding him back; he can just damage opponents by performing combat maneuvers, which ignore AC. This makes his attacks more likely to hit; gives him a reasonable, more reliable damage output; and even gives him a clear party role (combat maneuver guy, since he has little reason not to perform combat maneuvers at every available opportunity).
As an added bonus, the proposed change allows monks to perform classic wuxia-type stunts that resemble combat maneuvers, but sound as though they should also inflict some sort of damage: bull rushing by kicking the opponent in the chest; disarming by violently twisting an arm; overrunning by climbing someone like a ladder, kicking off on their face to jump clear to the other side; tripping by smashing a kneecap with a powerful kick; etc.
All benefits of adding that one single sentence to the maneuver training ability.
Now that is a good suggestion.
I like.
Did anything ever come of this idea ???
I think the monk with a fullbase attack bonus would be a fighter with better powers and the ability to fight without a weapon. Giving them a full attack would be too powerful. As for their flurry of blows it is optional. And if you would like their chance to hit to go up focus on feats and magic that do that.
It's not suggesting full BA.
It's suggesting doing unarmed damage with combat maneuvers.
|
I think the monk with a fullbase attack bonus would be a fighter with better powers and the ability to fight without a weapon. Giving them a full attack would be too powerful. As for their flurry of blows it is optional. And if you would like their chance to hit to go up focus on feats and magic that do that.It's not suggesting full BA.
It's suggesting doing unarmed damage with combat maneuvers.
Seeing has how I was NOT responsible for the necromancy...
I love the concepts of a monk. Ever since I got turned onto the concept of D&D by randomly picking up Neverwinter Nights. Unfortunatly, that game gave me the (wrong) impression that monks are beasts :) Id just like to see the monk be a VIABLE class, not a joke, or something that can be duplicated (or even improved upon) by an unarmed fighter with feats. That being said, Meepo's idea of adding unarmed damage on a successful CMB is genius, assuming the math for CMB works out properly. Monks need a niche aside from being Brave Sir Robin and being able to run away, and why not let it be trip/grapple/CMB masters? Fits in well with the fluff of a Monk IMO. Also, they need to actually be able to USE that mobility. Maybe they can spend (2,3,4,5?) ki points to get a move action after taking a full attack action? Or spend (2,3,4?) ki points to take 1 extra attack as part of a standard action. This would help solidfy the monk's mobility no? As I have not actually gotten to play PFRPG or its monk, I cant say if this is overpowering or not. Anyone with more insight able to comment?
Sorry to keep editing this, but a thought accord to me along the lines of mobility. Along the lines of spending ki points to take a move action after a full-attack, maybe spend 4 ki points on top of that (for a total of 6-10 ki points) to allow you to break up that movement so you can attack this guy, move attack this guy, move, trip this guy, move etc etc. The high ki point cost makes it so its not game breaking in that you can't do it with impudence, but if you need that option its there. Personally on a whole, I think there is a LOT of potential in the ki pool, as many many maneuvers can be added by way of feats to allow for some serious customization of the monk.
|
|
What if you gave the Monk a mechanic similar to the sniping mechanic in many games. Basically, for every round the spend focusing and meditating and channeling their chi, etc. . ., they get a +1 to attack rolls. They can do so a max of three rounds for a +3 to all attacks, (unlike snipping this lasts the entire fight).
So whilethe Cleric and Fighter draw their weapons and move to position, the Monk can do their inner calm for a +1 and step up too.
In addition, whenever the monk successfully performs a combat maneuver, he may choose to deal damage as though he had hit his target with an unarmed strike attack."
This idea is basically interesting, but there is a balance problem when the CMB defense of the opponent is equal or even lower than its AC. Than it's easier to attack the CMB than the AC and you gain the benefit of the maneuver in addition to the damage with more ease.
Well, the frequency for such occasions must be proofed. Monsters with high natural armor seem most likely to be more vulnerable to combat maneuvers. If there's only little chance for such things happening it seems ok to give the monk his really shiny moments. Just guessing I think those events are quite rare, since AC increases slower than BAB usually.
Though full unarmed damage seems a little too much to me. Damage equal to WIS bonus (maybe 1,5 times the amount) I'd prefer at first glance.
Wisdom is Strength
Your years of training and innate wisdom provide you with an insight into the weaknesses of your opponents style.Prerequisites: Wis 13+. Improved Unarmed Strike,
Benefit: You can add your wisdom bonus to your strength bonus in calculating your damage.
Special: This feat can be taken as a monk bonus feat.
Zen Strike
Your years of training and innate wisdom provide you with an insight into the weaknesses of your opponents style.Prerequisites: Wis 13+. Improved Unarmed Strike,
Benefit: You can add your 1/2 wisdom bonus to your when calculating your attack bonus.
Special: This feat can be taken as a monk bonus feat.
These feats would go a long way toward fixing the horrific mess that is the monk. The largest problem with the class is it has no purpose. It isn't a sneaker, god, god2, or beat stick. It's a 3rd wheel.
Even with those bonuses the fighter will probably still hit more often and twice as hard.
Just something I wanted to point out...
Something else:
A monk at 20th level can have an attack routine of:+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
It blows the fighters +20/+15/+10/+5 out of the water.
One point of clarity I would like to see is how monk's unarmed strike/ flurry of blows interacts with two weapon fighting.
This doesn't take into account that the Fighter is likely getting his Weapon Training/Mastery bonus, and has access to the Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization feats, that the Monk doesn't get.
These are "class abilities" for the Fighter, just like Flurry.
Really, comparitively, the Fighter has a +25/+20/+15/+10 vs the Monk's +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5.
When you get into a 10 point difference on the attacks, you start to see where the Monk's ability is considered "flurry of misses". Anything that might challenge the Fighter, shuts down the Monk.
And regarding damage...
2d10 is nice, but it's on a 20/x2 crit spread, and the Monk's ability score dependency kind of pushes focus away from Strength for damage.
A Fighter using a Twohanded weapon has no reason to not max his Strength score.
At 20th level, the Fighter having Weapon Training, Mastery and Specialization feats, uses his Greatsword at 2d6+8 (avg 15) 19-20/x3 plus 1.5x maxed Strength... vs the Monk's 2d10 (avg 11) 20/x2 plus neglected Strength.
...
The Monk is no where near set up to be a combat powerhouse. In 3.5e, his Flurry ability is completely out of place (low attack bonus, movement abilities conflicting with full attack requirement of flurry, etc).
With allowing CMB to use Monk level instead of BAB, he's got a niche of being a CMB character.
What I'd like to see personally, is to have feats like the Improved Grab monster feat/ability, or the old 3e Improved Trip.
Basically, like Epic Meepo's suggestion of adding damage to Maneuvers... except making it a feat that you can get at the end of a feat chain.
Then, you can allow Monks to automatically gain access to these feats without needing the prerequisites (but limited like his AC and movement, etc).
So a Fighter can learn how to grapple and damage, and maybe even Trip and damage. The Monk though, knows how to do it with his unarmed strikes on all maneuvers, earlier.
Seriously - the Monk having a moderate BAB does make them a bit of a joke right now. I've read the comments about the monk's being flankers, Combat Manouver specialists, etc - and therefore not needing a high BAB, though I'm seeing Rogues fill these roles better, with the same BAB, and significantly more skills and damage.
The Monk's limitations largely build on themselves. You are not only dealing with a lower BAB, also, you are dealing with a signficantly lower attack-stat than the majority of other non-casters due to requirements to Wisdom, Str, Con and Dex creating some serious MAD issues.
Flurry of misses becomes a ho-hum ability when the Monk misses with most of those attacks - and deals low to moderate damage with those he does. Stunning fist as well suffers from missing too often.
Some of the stuff mentioned here could really help make the monk a more viable option:
1) Use wisdom instead of Strength for To Hit/Damage. This could be a feat option (Zen melee?) or simply a class ability. This would really allow Monk's to optimize wisdom without giving up melee options.
2) A significant bonus to Combat Manouvers. Monk's are supposed to be good at these - but tend to fall significantly behind the other melee classes due to inferior stats where it matters.
3) Full attack + Movement. Allow the Monk to be a true skirmisher by allowing them to make full attacks with movement in a round.
4) More Movement Options: Have Monk's not grant AoO when moving, or maybe swift action dimension doors - something to make manouverability superior for a Monk.
5) Better Combat Manouver options - Improved Grab or Trip (from MM) etc would be quite a help.
These are some options - the other possibility is to leave the Monk as a throwaway class. Currently - they are about as useful in melee as a Cleric without spells. This is not a good thing...
The monk is a front line combat character. All other front line fighters have d10 HD and best BAB progression, why doesn't the monk? Is the monk supposed to be only a "support" fighter?
The monk has one main purpose, to do melee damage. Yes they get nifty abilities here and there, but giving them d10 HD and good BAB would not in any way imbalance them, when you compare them to fighters who get a lot of feats.
Although many monk builds are around agility and avoiding getting hit -- those are only to compensate for the fact that they wear no armor.
They are constantly over shadowed by the weapon weilding fighter -- whose weapons will in the very least be masterwork, but will usually be magical and eventually have special weapon properties that do even more damage. Giving the monk the good BAB still would not make them better than a fighter but would give them a better shot at being more balanced with the other fighting classes. (They are aleady halfway near having the good BAB as their Maneuver Training adds their monk level to their CMB instead of BAB -- so why not just give them the good BAB).
Paizo please give the monk the 10 HD and good BAB they deserve.
Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
No offense, but this, like several other statements about classes such as your absolute refusal to even consider bumping the sorcerer to a normal casting rate, is really offensive to me.
What's the purpose of having these beta tests if you aren't willing to play with the rules a bit to see what works. You don't know full base attack for the monk will fail. You are assuming it is and pigeonholing the class without any play testing. Ruling out changes even before you get any additional input on them is poor design style.
Hey there all,
I am going to be spending some time looking deeply into some of the math behind the monk. Specifically, I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB. This will not be happening.
I am open to thoughts on how to make them work without this change. Let me hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
No offense, but this, like several other statements about classes such as your absolute refusal to even consider bumping the sorcerer to a normal casting rate, is really offensive to me.
What's the purpose of having these beta tests if you aren't willing to play with the rules a bit to see what works. You don't know full base attack for the monk will fail. You are assuming it is and pigeonholing the class without any play testing. Ruling out changes even before you get any additional input on them is poor design style.
Peter, I am glad you wrote this. I have the highest respect for Jason Bulmahn and the direction the design team has undertaken in crunching out revised rules. I must say though that the above statement you quoted does also raise some similar concerns with me. The game is after-all being made for "US". Why are "WE" so dang important? Because we will be the ones paying the money for the game!
I find that most of the folks at this message Board arn't your typical whiners you would find at others, who just want to optimize and front load their characters. Most of the posters here are genuinely interested in making a good balanced game system.
The plethora of "Fix the Monk" posts for the last 10 years, should more than be sufficient to keep the design team's eyes and ears open. Such comments do not bode well for Pathfinder. Fix the Monk! A good step towards that is to give them full BAB & d10 HD! I remember reading a similar statement about CMB too... well DC 15 is too high!!! Fix it, don't cross your arms and shake your head. Please listen to us... we are trying to help you balance the system too.
Spoiler:+1 vote for Meepo's idea.I've got this in another thread, but since this one is more active right now, I'll post it here too.
Gained at 1st level.
Martial Arts (Ex): You gain a +1 competence bonus to attack rolls with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 17th level. This bonus may not exceed your Wisdom modifier (minimum of +1).
Benefits of a full BAB that this adds:
Accuracy. For the most part, we advocates of the Monk's full BAB don't want that last iterative attack, we just want to be able to hit.
Alleged problems of a full BAB that this avoids:
3rd iterative attack. You still only gain iterative attacks according to a medium BAB (meaning no more than two. Flurry of Blows covers for this anyway.
Applying BAB to Sense Motive to avoid Bluff. As a Monk, you've got a good Wis, a medium BAB, and Sense Motive as a class skill, so you're still covered.
Gaining BAB prerequisites too early. You don't start off with a BAB of +1 at 1st level, so feats like Weapon Finesse still have to wait. You qualify for feats with BAB of +8 no earlier than anyone else with medium BAB. And you don't qualify for feats with BAB +16 earlier than Epic levels.
Additional notes about this ability:
Wisdom Dependent. Your Wisdom modifier determines how much of a competence bonus you get to add. Ergo, a Wisdom-draining effect works on both your defenses (AC and Will saves) and your ability to attack.
Nonstacking Competence bonuses. As a competence bonus, the Martial Arts ability wouldn't stack with other competence bonuses. It can represent the Monk's perfection of self, which is what the Monk's journey to self-perfection is all about, right? Furthermore, it represents his reliance on himself, so when the Cleric comes over and offers a spell with a competence bonus, he says, "No, your god may be able to help others perform better, but my talents are my own and only I can improve them."
Just...
This is the Monk I created in Alpha, I don't know if Jason Ever looked at it since he never commented on the build. It's fully backwards compatible with the 3.5 Monk...but it needs to be massaged still
Monk v1.1
Notes of change.
added magic pluses to monk’s unarmed combat, removed qualities.
Removed critical multiplier, increased crit threat ranges. 20th level monk now equal to improved critical scimitar for threat range. Added 3 Qi powers that boost stats. Added Monk's wisdom.
1 Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Monk training, Monk's Wisdom
2 Evasion, Monk training
3 Maneuver training, Evasion
4 Qi pool, Slow fall, Unarmed Strike (+1,19-20)
5 Leap of the Heavens, Purity of Body
6 Monk training
7 Qi Power
8 Unarmed Strike (+2, 18-20)
9 Improved Evasion, Monk's Stride (10ft)
10 Qi power, Monk training,
11 Diamond Body
12 Qi Power, Unarmed Strike (+3, 17-20)
13 Diamond Soul
14 Monk training
15 Monk training
16 Qi Power, Unarmed Strike (+4, 16-20), Monk's Stride (15ft)
17 Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun & Moon
18 Monk training
19 Empty Body
20 Perfect self, Fall from the Heavens, Unarmed Strike (+5,15-20)
Monk’s Wisdom The monk uses wisdom in place of Str for attacks.
Slow Fall safe distance 5'/level. At level 20 this increases to any distance (fall from the heavens).
Unarmed Strike A monk becomes more deadly as he increases in level.
Leap of the Heavens - renamed High Jump.
Monk's Stride A monk's ability to move quickly is transferred to his ability to move in combat. At level 9, a monk may make a 10ft step instead of a 5ft step, this increases to 15ft at level 16. In addition a monk has full control of his body, and is allowed to move in any direction during a charge.
Monk Training this replaces the monk bonus feats, by adding special monk powers in addition to feats.
1st:
Feats: Caught off-guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist, Throw Anything, Wise not Strong.
Abilities: Spear Hand, Manriki Gusari Training, Tao of the Blade, Monk Spear/Staff training, Quick stand, Trap Sense.
Quick stand: as rogue’s stand up ability
Trap Sense: as rogue.
Manriki Gusari Training:
Add Chain to monk weapons. The monk gains the ability to untangle his chain on a failed trip attack, preventing a counter-trip. The monk may also use the chain to gain a +4 bonus to deflect arrows and to AC as a deflection bonus.
Spear Hand - Unarmed strikes are considered piercing weapons, in addition to blunt.
Wise not strong – Use your WIS bonus in place of STR bonus for attack and damage rolls.
Tao of the Blade - add the following weapons to the list of monk weapons. Scimitar, short sword, long sword, falchion.
Monk Spear/staff Training: Add Long Spear to the list of monk weapons, in addition, you gain a +4 to disarm, trip and deflect arrows attack rolls when using quarterstaff or long spear.
6th:
Feats: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Mobility,
Abilities: Crouching Tiger Paw, Dragon Tail Sweep, Eagle's Claw, Flying Double Kick, Grappling strike, Qi power, Uncanny Dodge
Crouching Tiger Paw - The target must make a Reflex Save or have its movement restricted to 5' in all modes. (Flying creatures with maneuverability less than perfect may stall and fall and will need to make an appropriate Fly check to stay airborn). (Squirrelloid)
Dragon Tail Sweep: A Strong kick to the lower leg. The attack has a chance to knock your opponent prone in addition to damage. The damage from the kick is added to the DC to resist the trip.
Eagle’s Talons – Unarmed attacks considered blunt and slashing. On a critical causes 1 point bleed damage, bleeding stacks until healed.
Flying Double Kick - At the end of a charge, you may make two attacks with double STR bonus.
Grappling Strike – A monk with this ability may initiate a grapple after a successful unarmed strike.
Qi power – choose a Qi power in lieu of a Martial power
Uncanny dodge: as Rogue ability
10th:
Feats: Improved Critical (not unarmed), Medusa's wrath, Snatch arrows, spring attack. Abilities: Bend like the reeds, Dragon’s Claws, Drunken Rabbit Defense, Iron Broom Sweep, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Bend like the reeds: as rogue’s Defensive roll ability.
Dragon's Claws - During a Flurry of Blows, 2 consecutive strikes allow the monk to rend his opponent, causing maximum damage.
Drunken Rabbit Defense - Until the start of his next turn all attacks against him which miss cause the creature who attacked him to become fatigued. Fatigued creatures who become fatigued become exhausted as normal. This must be used as a standard action with full defense(Squirrelloid)
Improved Uncanny Dodge: As Rogue ability
Iron Broom Sweep: The monk is ability to make a trip attack against 3 adjacent opponents.
14th: Feats: Vital Strike.
Abilities: Crashing Wave Strike
Crashing Wave Strike: This devastating full round action consists of two attacks, if both attacks hit, the opponent must save versus trip with a DC=CMB+damage inflicted.
18th: Feats: Improved Vital Strike.
Abilities:
Qi Powers Qi Pool = Monk level + wisdom (sorry 1/2 monk level was too low)
Unless otherwise noted, each ki maneuver is activated as a swift action after dealing damage to a foe with an unarmed strike or monk's weapon and requires 1 ki to activate. The DC for all saves is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Wis Mod
4th Agility of the Mantis, Coiled Viper Strike, Strength of the Bull, Ring the Bell, Rising Sun Strike, Monkey Breaks the Melon, Strength of the Tiger, Tough as the Rat, Wholeness of Body.
Coiled Viper Strike - The target must make a Fortitude Save or be nauseated until the end of the Monk's next turn.
Monkey Breaks the Melon- If the monk connects and deals damage with 2 or more attacks against one opponent he may activate Monkey Breaks the Melon as a swift action against that opponent at the cost of 1 ki. The opponent must make a fortitude save or be Confused until the end of the Monk's next turn. Creatures immune to criticals are immune to this extra damage.
Ring the Bell - Use a Qi point to make a reach attack as a full round action. This attack has a reach of 10 @ level 6. 20 @10. 30@15 and 40@ 20.
Rising Sun Strike - The target must make a Reflex Save or be dazed for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's wisdom modifier.
Strength of the Tiger – This allows a monk to use Qi to increase his strength for 1 round. 1 ki/+2 strength. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Agility of the Mantis – This allows a monk to use Qi to increase his dexterity for 1 round. 1 ki/+2 dexterity. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Tough as the Rat – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his CON for 1 turn. 1 ki/+2 CON. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Wholeness of body: As written, it just becomes an optional choice.
12th Abundant Step, Crippling Strike, Iron Body ,Part the Moon's Veil.
Abundant Step: As written, just become a Qi ability
Crippling Strike – Use Qi to cause Str dmg when you connect with an unarmed attack as a swift action. (costs 1 Qi to inflict 1d6 STR) Fort save to resist.
Iron Body – gain DR5/- for 1 turn as a swift action using 1 Qi.
Part the Moon's Veil - As a swift action, immediately after moving due to a teleportation effect the monk may spend a Qi point to gain one attack, which must be taken immediately.
15th: Adamantine Body, Deadly Venom Strike, Halves Become Whole, Quivering Palm.
Adamantine Body - gain DR 10/- for 1 round as a swift action using 2 Qi.
Deadly Venom Strike – After a successful unarmed attack, as a swift action, may use 2 Qi to inflict d6 CON dmg. Fort save to resist.
Halves Become Whole - The monk receives a second swift action each round, which may only be used to activate Qi maneuvers. The monk may never activate the same Qi maneuver more than once in a given round, but may activate two different ones.
Quivering Palm: As written except it drains the monk of all Qi when he performs it
All other monk attributes remain the same.
AC from Wisdom
AC Bonus
SAVES
BAB and HD
Extra movement
Other addendums I had put in.
Fist of the Elements: 12th level
1 Qi - imbue unarmed attacks with an elemental quality (flaming, frost, acid, or shock) for 1 round/2 monk levels.
3 Qi - imbue unarmed attacks with an elemental burst quality (flaming, frost, acid, or shock) for 1 round/2 monk levels.
Strike the unseen:12th level
2 Qi - Imbue unarmed attacks with the ghost touch quality for 1 round/2 monk levels.
Masters Training
Prerequisite: 16th level monk
This feat brings the monks Base Attack bonus into the Warrior's Bracket. (This does not affect Flurry of blows, whose progression is still at the basic monk level.)
My fluff needs work this is the rough draft. This feat brings the monk into the realm of the actual fighter. No longer would the monk be considered inferior to the Fighter in combat. This feat also allows the monk to be brought in line as a front line combatant, while maintaining backwards compatibility.
NOTE, if you wnt to drop the Qi (ki) ability changes, the Monk training would be a great improvement anyway.
So anyone gonna check out my monk?
(spoiler above)
Director of Brand Strategy
|
So anyone gonna check out my monk?
(spoiler above)
I think what we need are not redesigned monk suggestions from the board but a redesign from Jason that we can all playtest and give unified feedback on. As long as everyone is touting their own suggestions and rebuilds, and possibly even playtesting them, we're still all doing different things. When changes to the monk are posted as a Design Focus of otherwise by Jason, I'll gladly pitch in and tell you how it worked, but until then, playtesting every suggestion from every other poster is both inefficient and a total waste of time if the things being playtested aren't actually in consideration for the book.
I'm not trying to direct this at you specifically, Xaaon, it's just a trend that's been popular since day one of the playtest and while I'm a little frustrated at the small amount of changes we've been able to test out (Paladins, new feats, animal companions, etc) I'm more frustrated with the countless other stuff that's getting in the way of the discussions about what might make it into the book. Maybe I'm off base here, but that's my take on what playtesting is and I think that the OP's intention with the thread is what I'd like to see more of, and less of "try this that I did."
So Jason, will there be a monk revision that I can try out?
|
Jason already said there probably wouldn't be one, he had to move on to the next section. Which means the next time we see the monk might be in full release, and it might suck...
I did this monk build during alpha, I got some positive response, it's compatible with 3.5, if you make X, Y and Z choices. It eliminates the (adamantine, lawful and other DR eliminating ki powers) by making the fists magical in and of themselves, thus gaining the new DR eliminating capabilities of magic weapons.
I never got any feedback from Jason, so hopefully by reinvigorating some interest it just might. Or maybe he'll just take some of the ideas.
There's no reason for them not to have it. I understand the whole "HD tied to BAB" thing, but it's just ridiculous to have someone who is supposed to be a front-line combatant having difficulty in keeping up with attacks because he's got 3/4 BAB. It is so much simpler to give the monk full BAB and leave him at a d8 HD than to make class features that are work-arounds to this.
People have been asking for monks to have full BAB for years. Let's be nice and give it to them.
You're joking, right? Monks are already super powerful, the last thing they need is the fighter's BAB. Especially at high levels...
You're joking, right? Monks are already super powerful, the last thing they need is the fighter's BAB. Especially at high levels...
What he said, I have seen high level monks make the rest of the party just a support group. If your looking for a wizard slayer look no farther.
Wizards can have higher ACs than fighters and monks are notorious for missing with melee attacks in any case...
Look, every class has its cons. What you are suggesting is that we remove the cons of the monk. You can do this in your own game, but it's unfair to other classes.
I have seen a few monks played they dont miss all that much. Hitting ac isnt a big issue really as you need to keep him busy more then kill outright, good saves mean they rarely even fall prey to area spells, or will saves and they can have damned high ac as well. Monks are hit and run hurrasers not tanks they move about the battlefield doing as much damage as they can and keeping the enemy off guard. They should not be played as a fighter, if you play them like that your just asking to be hurt.
<snip>
I am going to be looking for solutions that do not raise the monk up to a full BAB.
why does the monk need to overcome the full AC?
with all this nifty training and whatnot, the unarmed damage might as well also hurt when the monk hits the armor[I'm thinking 'Bloodsport' Dim-Mak here (take one of the bottom bricks)]
let the monk ignore all non-magical armor bonus for the purpose of hitting
then give half the non-magical armor bomus as damage reduction
i.e.
Base ___________ 10
Dex ____________+ 1 (max)
+2 full plate _____+10
heavy shield _____+ 2
normal AC = 23
of this the nonmagical armor bomus is 10
if the Monk hits a 23, damage is applied as normal
if she hits a 13, the armor blocks 5 points of damage (which still gives a good enough %% of no damage to not raise the overall damage to ridiculous numbers)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Look, every class has its cons. What you are suggesting is that we remove the cons of the monk. You can do this in your own game, but it's unfair to other classes.
No, it's my opinion that the monk has too many cons. The lack of full BAB is compounded by the fact that they have to pay three times as much for to-hit enhancement for their unarmed attacks and combat manoeuvres are now harder than they were, the monk has the worst case of Multiple Attribute Dependence, and their damage doesn't go up fast enough. The also have the same problem that other meleers do that they can't move and make full attacks (so the monk's vaunted movement often means they get their faster before doing little even if they do hit, which they often won't). Really, though the MAD hurts them most, at root. They might be OK against wizards, but how many of your combats have an enemy wizard or sorc in? 10%? 15% I also don't think that "running around being a pain in the arse, sometimes" is that exciting a role.
I have seen a few monks played they dont miss all that much.
To be fair, they aren't any worse at hitting than a (TWF) rogue is. But a rogue does more damage, generally.
Hitting ac isnt a big issue really as you need to keep him busy more then kill outright
I think this boils down to what tactics the monk's opponent uses. If a monk isn't good at "killing outright", then you might as well ignore him in favour of targets who can "kill outright". In that case, the monk isn't really keeping anyone "busy".
good saves mean they rarely even fall prey to area spells, or will saves and they can have damned high ac as well. Monks are hit and run hurrasers not tanks they move about the battlefield doing as much damage as they can and keeping the enemy off guard.
Running around with good saves and good AC is overrated in terms of winning fights, though.
I would probably prefer not to see monks with full BAB, but I hope monks end up with a better niche than "the class that`s good at running around and making saves". (I'd rather see monks be the masters of tripping, grappling, stunning, etc.)
'nother idea to enhance the attacks without raising the BAB
if monks where allowed to move during the flurry (5ft between hits)
at higher levels they could do their own flanking:
.
grid referrence:
123
4X6
789
1) monk starts at 2: 1st hit on X
2) 5' step to 6: 2nd hit to X,
3) 5' step to 8: 3rd hit on X, with X being denied DEX bonus to AC due to being threatened from 2 sides in the same round
4) 5' step to 4: 4th hit on X, with X being denied DEX bonus to AC due to being threatened from 2 sides in the same round
5) 5' step to 2: 4th hit on X, with X being denied DEX bonus to AC due to being threatened from 2 sides in the same round
makes full use of the unarmored speed bonus and tumble to avoid AoOs
should be fun to play too
You're joking, right? Monks are already super powerful, the last thing they need is the fighter's BAB. Especially at high levels...What he said, I have seen high level monks make the rest of the party just a support group. If your looking for a wizard slayer look no farther.
I've never seen a better Wizard Slayer than a wizard built for slaying other wizards.
For non-casters - I'm still not convinced of the effectiveness of Monk's at wizard killing (though I suppose they can get to them first). With the plethora of ways wizards have to escape grappling and win initiative - the monk tactics to kill wizards can be circumvented fairly easily.
Rogues are probably better at the job I would think because of the high damage output they can bring forth...
Monk's have great manouverability, fair skills, good saves, and some decent special abilities. However - the "Con" of the class is bigger than the Con of any other core class in the game. Monk's lack effective offensive options.
- CMB - worse than 3.5 since everything now is tied to BAB
- To hit with Melee attacks - With a secondary strength attribute and medium BAB - hitting is a huge problem for monks. At least the Rogue is using a superior stat (since he's using weapon finesse and Dex is his primary attribute) for to hit rolls.
- Damage - The worst of any non-caster on average.
I have yet to see another PHB class with that kind of "con".
- CMB - worse than 3.5 since everything now is tied to BAB
- To hit with Melee attacks - With a secondary strength attribute and medium BAB - hitting is a huge problem for monks. At least the Rogue is using a superior stat (since he's using weapon finesse and Dex is his primary attribute) for to hit rolls.
- Damage - The worst of any non-caster on average.I have yet to see another PHB class with that kind of "con".
Well, a bit of a clarification:
1. CMB - 3rd lvl+ they have the equivalent of the Fighter's BAB (uses Monk level, not BAB for CMB).
2. Many Monks I see use Dex and Weapon Finesse.
3. 2d10 has some stacking benefits, but otherwise yes, worst damage capability.
The problem is they get a few nice "perks", but otherwise spend the rest of their special abilities trying to make up for their limitations.
Bonuses to AC? Can't wear armor and limited in magical armor enhancements.
Bonuses to Unarmed Damage? Too bad it costs an arm and a leg to enhance it, and capped at +5. Oh, but you have Monk weapons? Shame they are simple weapon damage at best (none of a decent crit multiplier).
Want to approach a Rogue's AC and Damage output? You better have rolled well, you'll need stellar Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom.
...
About all they get that isn't strictly making up for some deficiency is a decent defense against a Wizard's spells. Killer Saves and Spell Resistance.
That doesn't make them a Wizard killer. Maybe a Wizard Survivor?
It's a great benefit... but you need a bit more of a niche than just "can last longer against spellcasters and getting into positions fairly quickly".
I dont know guys i can make a monk with ac's in the low 30's and damaged good damage with gauntlets or handwraps or such.
They often in the games i have seen are outdamging the melee classes by a good amount.
The wizards spells seem to slide off high level ones, they ac is no worse then anyone else with the right items
And gods help you if ya allow a few non ogl feats...ring the bell comes to mind
Monk AC is highly dependant on having a good ability score spread. In regular powered games, the Monk has to focus pretty hard to get a decent AC (usually giving up damage from Strength, and such).
When you start tacking on non-core stuff (handwraps and feats), you go beyond what the Pathfinder Monk will be balanced against.
Perhaps it's time to make the Core Monk have handwraps and such as a standard, instead of something a DM has to decide to allow or not.
every class goes into no core, I myself am all for taking away all classes need to have magic just to keep up. Magic items should be a nice extra not a have to have
|
|
Monk AC is highly dependant on having a good ability score spread. In regular powered games, the Monk has to focus pretty hard to get a decent AC (usually giving up damage from Strength, and such).
When you start tacking on non-core stuff (handwraps and feats), you go beyond what the Pathfinder Monk will be balanced against.
Perhaps it's time to make the Core Monk have handwraps and such as a standard, instead of something a DM has to decide to allow or not.
Or better yet, my monk has no need of handwraps, his hands become magical weapons as he levels.
My monk also starts with Monk's Wisdom at level 1, replacing the need for strength as a MAD score, since atk/dmg is based on Wisdom instead of Strength
The CMB being set at 15 is what really hurts everyone, if you're attacking anything with a CMB score higher than you, you're pretty much screwed with a 20% of less chance to hit, I lowered it in my games to 12+
These changes mean the Monk MAD becomes WIS#1, DEX#2, CON#3, INT#4(for skills only) STR no longer needed at all, have you ever seen some of the true kung fu grandmasters, little old men, good luck touching them.
I reworked my monk into a more simple version, toned down the threat range...here it is.
1 Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Monk training, Monk's Wisdom
2 Monk training
3 Evasion
4 Monk training, Slow fall, Unarmed Strike (+1,19-20)
5 Leap of the Heavens, Monk training
6 Monk training
7 Monk training
8 Unarmed Strike (+2)
9 Improved Evasion, Monk's Stride (10ft)
10 Monk training,
11 Monk training
12 Monk training, Unarmed Strike (+3, 18-20)
13 Monk training
14 Monk training
15 Monk training
16 Monk training, Unarmed Strike (+4), Monk's Stride (15ft)
17 Monk training, Tongue of the Sun & Moon
18 Monk training
19 Empty Body
20 Perfect self, Fall from the Heavens, Unarmed Strike (+5,17-20)
Monk’s Wisdom The monk uses wisdom in place of Str for attacks and Combat Maneuvers.
Monk Training this replaces the monk bonus feats, by adding special monk powers in addition to feats. Ki Powers may also be chosen with Monk Training.
Slow Fall safe distance 5'/level. At level 20 this increases to any distance (fall from the heavens).
Unarmed Strike A monk becomes more deadly as he increases in level. His unarmed attacks gain an enhancement bonus and he becomes more accurate at delivering critical strikes.
Leap of the Heavens - renamed High Jump.
Monk's Stride A monk's ability to move quickly is transferred to his ability to move in combat. At level 9, a monk may make a 10ft step instead of a 5ft step, this increases to 15ft at level 16. In addition a monk has full control of his body, and is allowed to move in any direction during a charge.
1st:
Feats: Caught off-guard, Combat Reflexes, Dazzling Display, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist, Throw Anything.
Abilities: Spear Hand, Manriki Gusari Training, Tao of the Blade, Monk Spear/Staff training, Quick stand, Trap Sense.
Quick stand: as rogue’s stand up ability
Trap Sense: as rogue.
Manriki Gusari Training:
Add Chain to monk weapons. The monk gains the ability to untangle his chain on a failed trip attack, preventing a counter-trip. The monk may also use the chain to gain a +4 bonus to deflect arrows and to AC as a deflection bonus while in a defensive stance.
Purity of the Body (5th) as current monk ability
Spear Hand - Unarmed strikes are considered piercing weapons, in addition to blunt.
Tao of the Blade - add the following weapons to the list of monk weapons. Scimitar, short sword, long sword, falchion.
Monk Spear/staff Training: Add Long Spear to the list of monk weapons, in addition, you gain a +4 to disarm, trip and deflect arrows attack rolls when using quarterstaff or long spear.
6th:
Feats: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Mobility
Abilities: Crouching Tiger Paw, Dragon Tail Sweep, Eagle's Claw, Flying Double Kick, Grappling strike, Uncanny Dodge
Crouching Tiger Paw - The target must make a Reflex Save or have its movement restricted to 5' in all modes. (Flying creatures with maneuverability less than perfect may stall and fall and will need to make an appropriate Fly check to stay airborn).(Idea from Squirrelloid’s monk)
Dragon Tail Sweep: A Strong kick to the lower leg. The attack has a chance to knock your opponent prone in addition to damage. The damage from the kick is added to the DC to resist the trip.
Eagle’s Talons – Unarmed attacks considered blunt and slashing. On a critical causes 1 point bleed damage, bleeding stacks until healed.
Flying Double Kick - At the end of a charge, you may make two attacks with double Wis bonus.
Grappling Strike – A monk with this ability may initiate a grapple after a successful unarmed strike.
Uncanny dodge: as Rogue ability
10th:
Feats: Improved Critical (not unarmed), Medusa's wrath, Snatch arrows, spring attack. Abilities: Bend like the reeds, Dragon’s Claws, Drunken Rabbit Defense, Iron Broom Sweep, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Bend like the reeds: as rogue’s Defensive roll ability.
Diamond Body (11th) as current monk ability
Diamond Soul(13th) as current monk ability
Dragon's Claws - During a Flurry of Blows, 2 consecutive strikes allow the monk to rend his opponent, causing maximum damage.
Drunken Rabbit Defense - Until the start of his next turn all attacks against him which miss cause the creature who attacked him to become fatigued. Fatigued creatures that become fatigued become exhausted as normal. This must be used as a standard action with full defense (Squirrelloid)
Improved Uncanny Dodge: As Rogue ability
Iron Broom Sweep: The monk is ability to make a trip attack against 3 adjacent opponents.
Strike the unseen:12th level
2 Ki - Imbue unarmed attacks with the ghost touch quality for 1 round/2 monk levels.
14th: Feats: Vital Strike.
Abilities: Crashing Wave Strike
Crashing Wave Strike: This devastating full round action consists of two attacks, if both attacks hit, initiate a trip maneuver with CMB+dmg
18th: Feats: Improved Vital Strike.
Abilities: Timeless Body – as current monk ability
Ki Powers Ki Pool = Monk level + wisdom (sorry 1/2 monk level was too low)
Unless otherwise noted, each ki maneuver is activated as a swift action after dealing damage to a foe with an unarmed strike or monk's weapon and requires 1 ki to activate. The DC for all saves is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Wis Mod
4th Agility of the Mantis, Coiled Viper Strike, Strength of the Bull, Ring the Bell, Rising Sun Strike, Monkey Breaks the Melon, Strength of the Tiger, Tough as the Rat, Wholeness of Body.
Coiled Viper Strike - The target must make a Fortitude Save or be nauseated until the end of the Monk's next turn.
Monkey Breaks the Melon- If the monk connects and deals damage with 2 or more attacks against one opponent he may activate Monkey Breaks the Melon as a swift action against that opponent at the cost of 1 ki. The opponent must make a fortitude save or be Confused until the end of the Monk's next turn. Creatures immune to criticals are immune to this extra damage.
Ring the Bell - Use a Ki point to make a reach attack as a full round action. This attack has a reach of 10 @ level 6. 20 @10. 30@15 and 40@ 20.
Focused Strike: 1 ki As a Standard action, make a single attack or maneuver at double wisdom bonus.
Rising Sun Strike - The target must make a Reflex Save or be dazed for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's wisdom modifier.
Strength of the Tiger – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his strength for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 strength. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Agility of the Mantis – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his dexterity for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 dexterity. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Tough as the Rat – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his CON for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 CON. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Clever as the Monkey – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his INT for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 INT. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Wise as the Dragon – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his WIS for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 WIS. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Charming as the XXXXX-This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his CHA for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 CHA. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Wholeness of body: As written, it just becomes an optional choice.
12th: Abundant Step, Crippling Strike, Iron Body,
Fist of the Elements.
Abundant Step: As written, just becomes a Ki ability, and becomes a move action.
Crippling Strike – Use Ki to cause Str or Dex dmg when you connect with an unarmed attack as a swift action. (costs 1 Ki to inflict 1d6 STR or Dex) Fort save to resist.
Fist of the Elements: 12th level
1 Ki - imbue unarmed attacks with an elemental quality (flaming, frost, acid, or shock) for 1 round/2 monk levels.
3 Ki - imbue unarmed attacks with an elemental burst quality (flaming, frost, acid, or shock) for 1 round/2 monk levels.
Iron Body – gain DR5/- for 1 round as a swift action per Ki spent.
15th: Adamantine Body, Deadly Venom Strike, Halves Become Whole, Quivering Palm
Adamantine Body - gain DR 10/- for 1 round as a swift action using 2 Ki.
Deadly Venom Strike – After a successful unarmed attack, as a swift action, may use 2 Ki to inflict d6 CON dmg. Fort save to resist.
Halves Become Whole - The monk receives a second swift action each round, which may only be used to activate Ki maneuvers. The monk may never activate the same Ki maneuver more than once in a given round, but may activate two different ones.
Quivering Palm: As written except it drains the monk of all Ki when he performs it.
All other monk attributes remain the same.
AC from Wisdom
AC Bonus
SAVES
BAB and HD
Extra movement
|
|
Incidentally, I don't care whether or not the solution is full BAB. I just think that there's a problem that needs to be solved.
Jason already said multiple times, NO Full BAB for monks, not gonna happen, I'm sure he just ignores these threads anyway. he fixed one problem from Alpha to Beta, making abundant step a move action.
And obviously I think it needs to be fixed also.
does the flurry count as TWF for the sake of qualifying for Two Weapon Defense?
One way of making the 'flurry of misses' useful would be to allow the monk to trade the last attack(s) of the flurry each for +1 dodge bonus to AC.
This would put monks past 15th level one point of AC (or one attack) ahead of the total defense action.
Don't you have to be holding a weapon in each hand for two-weapon defense?
EDIT: Yes, natural weapons and unarmed strike are specifically excluded in PFRPG, at least.
well, the monk can hold two (special monk) weapons in the hands and still use the flurry and do unarmed damage.
So holding two non-magical sai would suffice for the use of two-weapon defense, even when the damage is done with ki enhanced unarmed strikes.
Edit: could even be holding any two weapons and do unarmed damage, just not interchangable with those weapons during a flurry
Here's my take on how to "fix" the monk. Firstly, I am going to assume that Full BAB + d10 Hit Die are not going to happen, despite my support for same).
#1 - no penalty to flurry of blows at early levels.
#2 - do they really need insane speed? Change the increments to: 2nd (+10), 8th (+20), 14th (+30), 20 (+40). Okay, I realize this is "nerfing" the monk, but it helps to balance my further suggestions.
#3 - Give them some ability such as "Smart Blow" or "Wise Strike" where-in they use their wisdom to determine the most vital of areas to hit, allowing them to add their Wisdom bonus to attack and damage rolls instead of Strength. (This should remove the need to allocate stats to Str). Because of this, monks should be hitting more often.
#4 - Start the AC bonuses at +1, not +0.
#5 - As an option (I haven't decided if this would be over-kill), due to their combined mental and physical discipline training, give them the ability to gain additional hit points equal to 1/2 their Wis modifier, when they progress in a monk level.
#6 - I realize this is the topic of another thread, but change CMB to DC 12.
There, fixed?
These minor fixes not only improve the monk's combat ability, they reinforce the idea that he receives actual supernatural abilities/immunities because of his discipline.
This means most vulnerable to chaos, which may make sense but it's a liability for someone fighting the forces of chaos.
Not a liability, just less of an asset. And unless he's fighting slaadi from 1st - 20th level, it's unlikely to come up overwhelmingly often. (How many axiomatic swords are there?) I picked it because (a) it nicely foreshadows the whole "I'm becoming a lawful outsider" thing (demons and devils have DR/good, celestials DR/evil, etc.); and (b) DR/chaotic is infrequent enough, even for a lawful character, that he'll still get a lot of mileage out of it (well, unless he's playing in the Savage Tide AP).
That aside, I do believe the monk needs full BAB. Let's face it, if you Improved Grapple to a mid BAB class, it doesn't bode well for them.
To be fair, Pathfinder monks are as good at grappling as any full BAB class (i.e., not very) because of their Maneuver Training ability. It's just every other aspect of melee that they're worse at.
To me, the biggest thing the monk suffers from is a lack of synergy. Most of its abilities don't correlate well with the class's other abilities.
I've noticed that, too. The ability to move really fast, and the ability to make a lot of attacks if you don't move, don't really mesh well.
To me, the biggest thing the monk suffers from is a lack of synergy. Most of its abilities don't correlate well with the class's other abilities.I've noticed that, too. The ability to move really fast, and the ability to make a lot of attacks if you don't move, don't really mesh well.
Well this falls hand in hand with the combat/movement rules everyone has been talking with respect to the fighter.
If thats fixed in general for combat.. then the idea of the monk begin able to make 5 ft steps and be his own flanker (or even harrier) is a reality.I personally like that fix right there.
And I for oe say a monk making a flurry of blows aganst a single target should count as that target being harried.