A while back I made my own version of Paladin. It took into consideration the new changes Paizo made as well as a few changes I had made a long time ago. I hope it will spark some discussion as I am not even sure this thread is still going.
Paladin
I’ll be honest here, I love Paladins. The whole concept of the holy knight in shining armor really appeals to me. So I have played more Paladins than anything else. When you play a class that often you begin to understand it very intimately. When you understand a class that well you can see where it overpowered and where it is underpowered. Paladin has the unique distinction of being far overpowered at the same time it is very underpowered.
This contradiction stems from the Paladins Divine Grace, the ability to add his Charisma to all his saves; but his slightly wanting other abilities. In being a mix of two different ideas – melee combatant and divine caster- both ideas are somewhat diluted.
In this alternative I set out to put a reign on the Divine Grace ability, but to bolster others, finally making Paladin tempting through all its levels, not just the first two.
Class Features
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. Or a paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning its strength as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 2 extra points of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. At 4th level, and at every four levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level.
At 10th level a paladin gains Exalted Smite as a bonus feat.
At 14th level a paladin gains Improved Smite as a bonus feat.
At 18th level a paladin’s smites are considered to have the holy property. This overlaps (does not stack with) the Improved Smite feat and the holy weapon property.
Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin has learned to channel positive energy in a way that can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma bonus. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal one target a number of hit points equal to twice her level. Using lay on hands is a standard action, unless the paladin is using the ability on herself, then it is a swift action. Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of his gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus to his saving throws equal to her Charisma bonus, not to exceed half her paladin level, to a maximum of +10 at 20th level. For example a 3rd level paladin with a 16 Charisma would add +1 to all her saves. That same paladin, were he 6th level, could add her full +3 bonus to all her saves.
Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve him in his crusade against evil (see the sidebar). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for up to 24 hours; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action.
In addition, the paladins mount becomes a magical beast. The mount gains darkvision 60 ft., its attack bonus becomes equal to its hit dice and its hit dice are rerolled with d10’s.
The mount gains bonus hit dice equal to half the paladin’s level. The mount also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to 2 plus half the paladin’s level. The mounts intelligence score is equal to ¼ the paladin’s level (minimum 2) and it gains a bonus to strength equal to ¼ the paladin’s level as well. Despite the mount’s high intelligence, it does not speak any languages.
The mount also gains special abilities. At 5th level it gains empathic link, share saving throws, and share spells. At 10th level it gains improved speed, 15th Command creatures of its type, and 20th it gains SR = to paladin level +5.
Dazing Smite (Su): Starting at 6th level whenever a paladin successfully smites evil on an evil creature the creature must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the Paladins level + the Paladin’s Str modifier) or be Dazed for one round. At 20th level there is no save.
Panacea (Sp): At 7th level, a paladin can produce a panacea effect, as the spell, once a day. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every two levels after 7th (twice per week at 9th, three times at 11th, and so forth).
Aura of Resolve (Su): Beginning at 10th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Aura of Righteousness (Su): Beginning at 14th level, a paladin is immune to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities (including possession). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Aura of Sanctity (Su): Beginning at 18th level, a paladin is immune to death effects. Each ally within 10 feet of his gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against death effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if he is unconscious or dead.
Holy Champion: At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. She gains DR 10 vs. evil. Whenever she uses smite evil against an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment spell, using her paladin level as the caster level and Charisma as the relevant ability modifier (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition the paladin becomes immune to vile damage and taint.
Note: All other information is as standard paladin.
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
Lay on Hands, Divine Grace
Aura of Courage, Divine Health
Smite Evil 2/day, Turn Undead
Special Mount
Dazing Smite
Panacea 1/day
Smite Evil 3/day, Aura of Resolve
Panacea 2/day
Exalted Smite
Panacea 3/day
Smite Evil 4/day, Aura of Righteousness
Panacea 4/day
Improved Smite
Panacea 5/day
Smite Evil 5/day, Aura of Sanctity
Panacea 6/day
Holy Smite
Panacea 7/day
Smite Evil 6/day, Holy Champion
Douglas Mawhinney, could you define for us what Improved Smite, Exalted Smite and Panacea is?
Been away from the boards for a few days because of some training (fun stuff)....crazy to see we are finally over 1000 posts in this thread. This has to be the biggest thread on all the PF boards. That has to say something for the state of the class.
And while I'll concede that many spells that were considered uber:overpowered have been reduced in their overall potency, I will say that it is still a valid point that instead of just reducing all spells, it makes logical sense to argue that their always available unlimited options makes a new mindset for long-time D&D players that we need to forget about the 15 minute adventuring day and expect PCs to have 8, 9, or even 10 encounters in a day!
I think this is just another great example of why the paladin needs something to keep him in the fight. Having more fun out of one adventuring day is awesome and it should be that way. But with the current form the paladin is in, it wont take long before (as Robert and many others have said before) he is the NPC warrior trying to swing his sword with the big boys while they fight BBEG's and worse.
I just dont understand why the paladin can not be strong against evil all the time. This does not make these other classes "weaker" it just makes the paladin able to add something to the combat. All these other classes will still be doing what they do great. Just with a paladin standing next to them on the line, and actually doing something other than hoping the next spell gets cast at him because he can *probably* make the save.
I just want to see the paladin be relevant in all encounters. I want to see him *shine* when fighting evil. As Marty has said before, the Chaotic neutral street thug should think twice before coming up against a paladin in a dark ally, but right now the paladin in the dark ally against this same street thug is exact same as the NPC warrior (constable) in that situation. Now, this is not the the place where the paladin should really dominate, but he should be a threat.
When the party steps to the BBEG Lich King, it should be the paladin who stands in the front and gives this evil pause.
We have went over literally hundreds of ways to fix this, and I still contend that some form of always on mechanic is the way to do it. We have many great possibilities, we just need one that the majority of us can agree on and that Jason also sees as balanced and reasonable, yet actually useful.
A while back I made my own version of Paladin. It took into consideration the new changes Paizo made as well as a few changes I had made a long time ago.
Hi Douglas. It’s nice to see another paladin fan!
I can’t comment on Exalted Smite or Improved Smite (I don’t know what they are) other than to say that an “exalted” smite (10th level) sounds like it should be better than an “improved” smite (14th level). It's interesting that the only example of an overpowered paladin feature you give is Divine Grace. There was actually a nice fix for that already proposed on this thread by Zark, that makes the bonus equal to your paladin’s Charisma modifier or your paladin level, whichever is lower. Your version limits the bonus even more, and I think it goes too far. As has often been mentioned in this thread, a passive ability is not as good as an active ability, so I don’t see any need to limit Divine Grace beyond what Zark proposed (and most everyone liked), since it goes far enough to solve the level dipping problem without turning Divine Grace into a bummer.
I think you’re the first person ever to suggest that a paladin should actually get fewer smites per day. I know, 6/day at 20th is not significantly different from 7/day, but still it’s noteworthy for being an unexpected precedent :-)
I think the popular consensus on this thread is to get rid of the “pokemount” and say the paladin’s mount resides on the same plane as the paladin. I am personally not a fan of the celestial mount.
I noticed that you moved charm immunity from 8th level to 10th, but you moved compulsion immunity from 17th to 14th. I think abilities lose some relevance as they approach 20th level, so I’m in favor of lowering the level if the ability is not very powerful and feels like part of the standard paladin equipment. Since it’s a passive ability, I see no danger in using 8th level for charm immunity and 14th level for compulsion immunity. The Aura of Sanctity you proposed for 18th level giving immunity to death effects is a cool idea. I would also like the paladin to get some resistance to energy drain.
I like Dazing Smite. You might be interested in the Smite Effects thread (link here).
Finally, I noticed that you want the paladin's DR to be vs evil rather than DR beaten by attacks with the evil descriptor. Many who posted here agree with you.
EDIT: Oh, I also love the idea of immunity to vile damage and taint! Can we add these descriptors to Pathfinder?
Over in the Extra Smiting thread, I posted an alternate idea to hopefully encompass some of the proposals here.
The idea is for the paladin to have a small number of bonus feats slots, to be gained at 1st, 6th, 12th and 18th level. The divine might/always on damage could be one of these feat choices, and the extra smites equal to the paladin's charisma modifier could be another. Both could be gained at first level.
Rather than add new class features, these options would add a bit of flexibility to the paladin (Cavalier paladins could take Mounted Combat instead, for example). There are only a few feats, to avoid treading on the feat-chained toes of the fighter, and most of these are paladin-themed.
The sort of feats that I'd got down were:
Divine Might (some sort of always on damage against evil), Extra Lay on Hands, Extra Turning, Improved Smiting (Cha modifier bonus to the number of times per day you can smite), Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Turning Smite, Weapon Focus.
Just as an idea, what does everyone think? Apologies if anyone's posted this before, but at 1,000 posts plus the brain is starting to fade...
Chobbly
This has to be the biggest thread on all the PF boards.
Heh. Clearly you missed Erian_7's "Civil Religious Discussion" thread in the off-topic forum, which dwarfs this one in comparison (2,573 posts and counting).
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Also the addition of Divine might is a good idea, though I feel that should be a class feature, not a feat.
For what it's worth Vult, I agree, but I just wondered if it would be more salesworthy in a mechanic like this. It's a moot point for me, as most of my paladins would take it at first level, but at least the option is there, giving the paladin a little flexibility without stepping on the fighter's feat chains. Cavalier paladins could take the Mounted Combat feat, for example.
If there were ever cleric only feats, appropriate ones could also be drip-fed into the paladin class using this bonus feat structure too.
Chobbly
Here is what I responded to you Chobbly on the other thread.....
Is it your intention with your idea that these new feats that can be taken (Imp Smite, Divine Might), be feats that can be selected as a normal feat that a character gains at every odd level?
Regardless, I foresee both such feats being taken by 9 out of 10 paladins. This brings up the issue that "all paladins are built the same way and start to look the same."
Which then brings up a point: we've all heard and stated things like, "If a class absolutely NEEDS a feat in order to be functional, the the class needs to be modified." The 1000+ paladin thread is chok-full of these comments.
That all being said - I really like your idea, (as a compromise) and I can get behind it; thanks for sharing. However, if those are standard feats that can taken at any time, I can guarantee you that every paladin I make would have both such feats at 1st level! (and yours too by the sound of it.), and so would Vult's and LastKnights I'm sure.
So that brings us back to.... "....the class needs modified."
As for EXTRA SMITE. I'm not sure what Jason is doing with it, but regardless, if it remains a feature that is used as a "per day" ability (Like Lay on Hands, Rage, Channeling, Stun, etc) there should be a feat that adds 2 more uses in the same fashion.
Robert
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This has to be the biggest thread on all the PF boards.Heh. Clearly you missed Erian_7's "Civil Religious Discussion" thread in the off-topic forum, which dwarfs this one in comparison (2,573 posts and counting).
Tru dat - but I think he meant of the design posts...
Of course I could be mistaken - it's happened.
Robert
Tru dat - but I think he meant of the design posts...
I think you're right... but it never hurts to rib people a little -- as long as it's clear that it's all in good fun.
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This has to be the biggest thread on all the PF boards.
Heh. Clearly you missed Erian_7's "Civil Religious Discussion" thread in the off-topic forum, which dwarfs this one in comparison (2,573 posts and counting).
Heh. I was going to call him on that as well, till I saw the 'PF' reference. Heathy's pbp must be up to 5000 by now, too.
Also the addition of Divine might is a good idea, though I feel that should be a class feature, not a feat.
For what it's worth Vult, I agree, but I just wondered if it would be more salesworthy in a mechanic like this. It's a moot point for me, as most of my paladins would take it at first level, but at least the option is there, giving the paladin a little flexibility without stepping on the fighter's feat chains. Cavalier paladins could take the Mounted Combat feat, for example.
If there were ever cleric only feats, appropriate ones could also be drip-fed into the paladin class using this bonus feat structure too.
Chobbly
Is it your intention with your idea that these new feats that can be taken (Imp Smite, Divine Might), be feats that can be selected as a normal feat that a character gains at every odd level?
I guess the special feats would have a Special line that says something like 'This feat may only be chosen as a paladin bonus feat, as explained in the rules for the paladin base class'. The bonus feat list could have a mix of general paladin-esque feats and the 'special' ones.
Regardless, I foresee both such feats being taken by 9 out of 10 paladins. This brings up the issue that "all paladins are built the same way and start to look the same."Which then brings up a point: we've all heard and stated things like, "If a class absolutely NEEDS a feat in order to be functional, the the class needs to be modified." The 1000+ paladin thread is chok-full of these comments.
That all being said - I really like your idea, (as a compromise) and I can get behind it; thanks for sharing.
It is a compromise; I make no bones about it. There are many alternate and possibly better/richer ways this could be done, some as described in this thread. But with this approach, backwards compatibility is easier to ensure (more of an issue for some than others) and the bonus feat mechanics are already well known.
However, if those are standard feats that can taken at any time, I can guarantee you that every paladin I make would have both such feats at 1st level! (and yours too by the sound of it.), and so would Vult's and LastKnights I'm sure.So that brings us back to.... "....the class needs modified."
As for EXTRA SMITE. I'm not sure what Jason is doing with it, but regardless, if it remains a feature that is used as a "per day" ability (Like Lay on Hands, Rage, Channeling, Stun, etc) there should be a feat that adds 2 more uses in the same fashion.
Robert
My reading is that Extra Smiting is not OGL, it's in Complete Warrior. The official Extra Smiting gives 2 more uses, which is great, but a Pathfinder version might have to be carefully worded to avoid being seen as just 'lifting' the feat in that book.
Thanks for your thoughts and comments - much appreciated.
Chobbly
Only until we see what happens. No point beating a dead horse anymore than nessecary. Once we see Jason's changes then we'll be able to address any new problems.
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I think everyone on this thread, who has put forward the case for improvements to the paladin, should give themselves a round of applause, take a short break, then dive back into the other Design Focus topics, where the battles are still to be decided.
There's still an opportunity to improve the potential of the paladin, via stronger feats, especially if they improve, synergise with, or allow alternate uses of Smite, LOH, and Channel Energy.
After that, we push for improvements across the board in the combat chapter, to change the over-reliability of defensive casting/casting when damaged, and to remove the artificial restrictions on movement for melee types.
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I think everyone on this thread, who has put forward the case for improvements to the paladin, should give themselves a round of applause, take a short break, then dive back into the other Design Focus topics, where the battles are still to be decided.
[sounds of applause] clappity clappity clap [/applause]
You deserve applause just as much, Snorter. Thanks for sharing throughout.
As for the other: I am already involved in the feats and skills discussions. :-) (especially the need for Extra Smite).
Robert
I think we have basically said everything we can say until we were blue in the face. I know we covered tons of different ways to fix our issues, I just hope they were well received. There were so many good ideas thrown out in this thread....I just hope we see some portion of what we all want in the final rules.
I agree, the feats section will probably be a good place to fight another battle for the paladin, followed by the Combat section. Lets keep our fingers crossed.
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With the preupgrade Paladin, I was finding myself in a situation where I was in a pretty comfortable spot. My Paladin could take a beating and dish it out with some mild success. I had a high AC and decent enough will saves thanks to the bonus of Divine Grace. For me the Paladin has never been the battle hardened character that knew a thing or two about handling real combat. Rather, a Paladin should be a person who feels that doing their gods work is important and if need be, take up arms to defend their neighbors and their faith. As a bonus for doing their gods work, they got special divine gifts and an awesome pension plan. That being said, I know that I am never gonna be as great as a fighter and a real Paladin would probably never aspire to that level of battle prowess. Rather, I always saw my Paladin doing some incredible, awe inspiring things that bolstered their party through their faith rather than ability.
What does that mean for me? I play a Paladin like a tweener. I am in the front line but can easily drop into the middle line and rally the party if the casters or fighters need additional help. If you look closely at the way the character was originally designed, that is how he is SUPPOSED to be played.
With the post-upgrade Paladin, I see that they are building on that concept. The bonuses I get to hit when I smite I think are fair and the fact that I now can actually go into battle with even better AC is icing. Lay on Hands is now better than ever with the changes to casting time. I think that the randomness of healing is wrong and have always hated that I cant control how much to heal with my application of it. I liked having a pool and applying it however much and however often I wanted in 3.5. Our DM is allowing me to continue play testing these new changes but has already removed some of them. I dont have that random healing thing. I am also getting the feeling that he will probably remove my good will saves as well. We just fought 3 chaotic priests and they only got one spell on me and it was because I failed a fort save (sad I know).
All in all, I am happy with the way the Paladin is shaping up and I look forward to going all the way to level 20.
Are there PDFs for the other classes too?
am I the only one who thinks paladins should be open to any alignment? or at least let there be some sort of holy warrior in any alignment
I don't have the time to read through 1,000 posts on this topic, so I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but it seems that the Smite Evil ability might be a tad bit overpowered as it stands right now in the hands of a Paladin that is fully-specced for two-weapon fighting. A 20th level Paladin wielding two-weapons can get three rounds of slice n' dice in per use of this ability and will score +10D6 nonresistant damage per successful hit on any Undead or Evil creature. This seems like a recipe for turning an otherwise challenging monster encounter into a cloud of bloody vapor...
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I don't have the time to read through 1,000 posts on this topic, so I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but it seems that the Smite Evil ability might be a tad bit overpowered as it stands right now in the hands of a Paladin that is fully-specced for two-weapon fighting. A 20th level Paladin wielding two-weapons can get three rounds of slice n' dice in per use of this ability and will score +10D6 nonresistant damage per successful hit on any Undead or Evil creature. This seems like a recipe for turning an otherwise challenging monster encounter into a cloud of bloody vapor...
Yes people have brought it up that it encourages two weapon fighting. Personally I see it as yet another reason to drop the multiple round duration at higher levels, and instead have an extra attack at your highest attack bonus available at level 1.
This solves both the low level disparity of dice issue as a second hit makes up for poor damage rolls, helps mitigate the low level whiff factor by providing a second chance to hit, and ends the high level "I'm smiting every round in combat" people are reporting.
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I think we have basically said everything we can say until we were blue in the face. I know we covered tons of different ways to fix our issues, I just hope they were well received. There were so many good ideas thrown out in this thread....I just hope we see some portion of what we all want in the final rules.
I agree, the feats section will probably be a good place to fight another battle for the paladin, followed by the Combat section. Lets keep our fingers crossed.
Vult,
The fact that a handful of posters show persistence in posting 1000+ posts in a thread (even if it's about a "cause" they fervently believe in) is not really an indication of anything else than, well, their persistence. I could do that myself, if I wanted to (and had time to do), and could I still claim that "since this thread has over 1000+ posts, it speaks of something".
I'm *not* trying to put you guys down, but I've seen a lot of good and even some absolutely *BRILLIANT* ideas (some of which even gained some popularity among the posters) thrown around, and yet I'll surprised if even a small percentage of them end up in the final rules. The purpose of these playtest threads is not rewriting class abilities (or even whole classes) or "brainstorming" new ones -- unless you have found obvious "holes" in the rules, and have really good playtest feedback to back it on, and a large percentage of the posters (and Jason) agree with you. They're not looking for new ideas per se, and more profound the change, less likely it will be to appear in PF RPG.
One of the reasons why I can't stand behind most of the suggestions presented on this thread is that they're not "in balance" with the rest of the system. Let's say that the paladin gets hefty "always on" bonuses against *all* evil-aligned beings, e.g. his CHA bonus to attack or damage or AC (IIRC that is one of the suggestions made by you?). This would effectively mean that by maxing out his CHA is ALL he needs to be as effective (or even more effective) in melee than the fighter against *MOST* opponents in any given adventure. Throw in the original changes proposed by Jason in this thread, and there's no need to play a fighter anymore, unless for "role-playing reasons". I know a handful of powergamers who would invest in 18 STR and 18 CHA (at expense of the rest of the stats) and go completely wild with this -- to the extent and playing the other "martial" classes would probably feel like playing an expert or warrior in 3E.
I appreciate the fact that you guys love the game so much that you devote a *LOT* of time and energy into something like this, but I don't think it's very productive, in the end. Unless you wish to houserule the paladin according to the suggestions presented here.
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The purpose of these playtest threads is not rewriting class abilities (or even whole classes) or "brainstorming" new ones -- unless you have found obvious "holes" in the rules, and have really good playtest feedback to back it on, and a large percentage of the posters (and Jason) agree with you. They're not looking for new ideas per se, and more profound the change, less likely it will be to appear in PF RPG.
Your right, the playtest threads aren't, but this isn't a playtest thread, this is a design thread in the Design forums, so I think talking design is appropriate unless jason has said he doesn't want to hear it.
I do agree that the more profound the change the less likely the implementation, but to say that the purpose isn't to brainstorm I think is a diservice to the thread.
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The purpose of these playtest threads is not rewriting class abilities (or even whole classes) or "brainstorming" new ones -- unless you have found obvious "holes" in the rules, and have really good playtest feedback to back it on, and a large percentage of the posters (and Jason) agree with you. They're not looking for new ideas per se, and more profound the change, less likely it will be to appear in PF RPG.Your right, the playtest threads aren't, but this isn't a playtest thread, this is a design thread in the Design forums, so I think talking design is appropriate unless jason has said he doesn't want to hear it.
I do agree that the more profound the change the less likely the implementation, but to say that the purpose isn't to brainstorm I think is a diservice to the thread.
I believe *all* of these threads exist for one purpose mainly -- to give playtest feedback. If I recall correctly, Vic (Wertz) pretty clearly pointed that out (in another thread), saying that reliable feedback based on actual playtesting is what they want and need. Now, in theory, this is a design thread, but my understanding is that Jason didn't ask for completely rewritten class or list of new class abilities, but rather feedback and "tweaks" to his original changes.
I don't have the time to read through 1,000 posts on this topic, so I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but it seems that the Smite Evil ability might be a tad bit overpowered as it stands right now in the hands of a Paladin that is fully-specced for two-weapon fighting. A 20th level Paladin wielding two-weapons can get three rounds of slice n' dice in per use of this ability and will score +10D6 nonresistant damage per successful hit on any Undead or Evil creature. This seems like a recipe for turning an otherwise challenging monster encounter into a cloud of bloody vapor...
I disagree with this. The new version of the paladin did what it needed to, make the paladin the best against evil outsiders and undead. That is their bread and butter far above anyone else. They are average against all the rest of the creatures. The overcoming of the DR if a GREAT add since most paladins are sword and board characters and dont use the powerattack with 2 handed weapons and overhead chop. Instead of a set point of damage per level it is now a d6 variable per 2 levels so on average it is a little better. We have tested the new version and it works well. At least better then the previous rendition.
I would like to see some of the new shield feats that are fighter only become available to paladins as well. Other then fighters, it is paladins who mainly fight with shields. We are testing that as a house rule now.
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I disagree with this. The new version of the paladin did what it needed to, make the paladin the best against evil outsiders and undead. That is their bread and butter far above anyone else.
I just respectfully disagree with this. The paladins immunities and save gave it
an advantage when fighting devils but it never had any powers of text that said fighting devils is their bread and butter. Their bread and butter is fighting evil. Saying they should have their smite focused on those two types of creatures is saying that they should be weak when fighting anything else.
The purpose of these playtest threads is not rewriting class abilities (or even whole classes) or "brainstorming" new ones -- unless you have found obvious "holes" in the rules, and have really good playtest feedback to back it on, and a large percentage of the posters (and Jason) agree with you.
obvious holes: check!
good playtest feedback: check!many posters in agreement: check!
They're not looking for new ideas per se, and more profound the change, less likely it will be to appear in PF RPG.
Seems to me that Jason should not be surprised by what he finds in this thread. The premise in the original post is a cautious first pass at fixing the paladin. To do the job, the following is all we're given to work with:
Detect Evil
Smite Evil
Lay On Hands
Channel Positive Energy
Divine Bond
Holy Champion
Smite Evil in particular got a lot of attention and playtest data, not surprising since the paladin is underpowered and this is the most obvious thing on the table capable of addressing that. The fact that so much stress was being put on this ability to bring the paladin up to par, and that many of the ideas (including Jason's Smite Evil proposal) strained the ability to the point of breaking proved to me that what the paladin really needs is something new to complement (and take some stress off) smite evil.
Fortunately, Jason hinted that he is willing to consider new abilities if the cautious first pass taken in the original post doesn't do the job:
I would like to take this incrementally. Although I am not convinced that this solves all of the paladin's issues, I do not want to overshoot (hence the absence of brand new abilities). Lets take a look at these and see where they lead us. There is still plenty of time to get this right.
I was very impressed by the energy and depth of insight that many posters brought to this thread. The parting congratulations at what we managed to express deserves some respect, I think. Good job everyone.
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I would like to take this incrementally. Although I am not convinced that this solves all of the paladin's issues, I do not want to overshoot (hence the absence of brand new abilities). Lets take a look at these and see where they lead us. There is still plenty of time to get this right.
I was very impressed by the energy and depth of insight that many posters brought to this thread. The parting congratulations at what we managed to express deserves some respect, I think. Good job everyone.
If the design team do take on board the best ideas from this thread, then I shall be a very happy Khalkataur.
And this will be my Happy Dance!
Marty explained it elegantly. They adhere to a code or standard of conduct that places them above the common man (or woman).
I've been thinking on the Divine Feats issue, and I'm surprised I didn't think of this sooner.
Paladins, more than any other class, are likely to use divine feats. The cost for using them should likely be 1 point rather than 2; just make this a special rule and keep the rest the same. This should address most of the issues they have now with using their d. feats.
The other, to bring up when we do spells and spellcasting:
Many of the paladin's spells are now duplicated by class abilities. To name a few:
Magic Weapon (divine weapon spirit)
Holy Sword (divine weapon spirit)
Remove Disease
Remove Curse
Neutralize Poison
Cure Light/Moderate (channeling and better LoH)
Break Enchantment
Bless Weapon (Aura of Faith)
...now, not all of these were on the list to begin with, but they're very similar in theme to what was there.
The advantage to spellcasting, as I see it, provides a way to expand the class: each time a new supplement is published, there's the chance for new paladin spells, thus adding options and utility without altering the class, really.
The advantage to the abilities above is that some of them are aura effects. This is fantastic. Some of them, though, are more outright duplicates. Bluntly, I just see alot of duplication now between the spells and class abilities. :) I suspect the spell list is where the inspiration for some of these abilities came from, honestly.
What to do about it? Not entirely sure. I fairly well like the class as-is for the moment.
With, well, divine feats not costing double. Since paladins are their frequent users, it doesn't make sense to hurt this ability, when a tweak would take care of it.
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Bluntly, I just see alot of duplication now between the spells and class abilities. :) I suspect the spell list is where the inspiration for some of these abilities came from, honestly.
There is an advantage to having duplication on the spell list; namely that they can utilise wands and scrolls, for more uses/day.
It was suggested on another message forum that the most interesting way to fix the Paladin was to have Smite do more than just up the damage.
A to hit/damage bonus to Smite makes the Paladin temporarily better than the fighter at the fighter's job (doing damage) and then afterwards becoming worse again.
In the end - they end up doing the same thing.
What if the Paladin's smite did other things besides (or instead of) extra damage?
Smite abilities could be selected as the Paladin increases levels, and use a DC system similar to Stunning Fist except based on CHA.
A 5th level paladin perhaps could temporarily Deafen or Dazzle on a successful smite hit.
A 10th level paladin might blind or frighten
A 15th level paladin might stun or panick
A 20th level paladin might daze
Area of Effect options could be allowed as well. For a high level Paladin to dazzle evil creatures in say a 10' radius spread shouldn't be too powerful.
Most importantly, I think these kind of options add flavor and differentiate the Paladin from just any other tank. I can easily visualize a Paladin "Smiting" an evil-doer and a blight flash of light streams from the heaven's blinding the baddie for example...
good stuff
Yes, I think you're on to something
:-)I still like the ac boost, the attack boost and bypassing DR.
/ Zark
stuffThere is an advantage to having duplication on the spell list; namely that they can utilise wands and scrolls, for more uses/day.
right you are. Keep the spells.
right you are. Keep the spells.stuffThere is an advantage to having duplication on the spell list; namely that they can utilise wands and scrolls, for more uses/day.
Well, yes. I think the main question is posed just because the abilities are duplicated. This is and isn't a bad thing as Snorter pointed out so well. It just means you get more of them.
Re: smite doing more things. Sounds like an opening for feats, potentially. Hopefully we'll see a few more divine-tailored feats out there.
As it is, I hope eventually that the divine feat cost will go to taking 1 charge of LoH instead of 2. Paladins are their primary user, after all!
For a high level Paladin to dazzle evil creatures in say a 10' radius spread shouldn't be too powerful.
I'm all in for that one. The image of holy light bathing down upon the paladin as he swings his mighty avenger, causing all evil near him to cower or become dazzled by its light is just plain cool.
My perspective:
The paladin is perhaps the only class in PF that I do not like the changes.
I simply prefer the good old standard 3.5 paladin as it is, perhaps with a few changes to how many times/day the smite evil should work, and the final benefit for hitting lv 20.
Still, I playtested the changes recently in a 3-session adventure I set up for 3 of my players at lv 15. One of them played a paladin, the 2nd a barbarian, the 3d a fighter, using the revised rules for barbarian and paladin, and the standard rules for the fighter from the PF beta.
Here is what I gathered:
The paladin lay on hands ability now lasts longer than it did in 3.5 but it still does not hold the awesome power it did, being able to channel your full charge to someone immediately. sure enough, a 15th level paladin heals 7d6 hps which is a hefty chunk, but this forced the paladin (being the only healer) to use lay on hands almsot every round to keep the party alive, so in any major encounter the paladin was not showing his melee capabilities
In a similar situation with a 3.5e paladin, (who had a cha of 28) he could instantly heal 135 hps, he would wait until someone was majorly injured to heal him for most if not all of that ammount, giving him the rest of the rounds free to open the can of smiting - I liked that more.
Smite evil as an ability that lasts for more than one attack is something I was originally unsure about.
Seeing it in play, I liked it even less. True enough, the ability makes the paladin a lot more fierce in a fight against evil but I always liked the concept of smite as something that you use to boost a single attack - not something that just lasts through the round. The paladins I've played usually used smites after their first attack to make sure all attacks would hit, or only with the first two, adding full power attack for more damage - Strategies and smart playing like that becomes annuled with the new cookie-cutting smite.
It also does not feel like smiting to me anymore as much as activating some sort of holy power buff.
My thoughts about smite:
1) Leave it as it was in 3.5. Add a feat that adds double paladin level to damage if you feel its too weak. A non epic such feat, that is.
2) Bring Divine Power in PF. The feat that allows the paladin to expend a then-turn attempt now-channel energy to add his charisma modifier to damage for the round as a swift action, and make smite part of an attack, as ti was. This, stacking with smite makes up for lofty damage numbers that push the paladin back to what he should be, in my eyes: A burst-damage dealer vs evil.
3) Scrap the idea of including AC in smite. Name it something else. Don't involve defensive abilities into smite, or rename it. Smite evil has a very specific purpose: To smite evil. Giving it all these new parameters is taking its concept away and making it look like a full christmas tree. Just go with a new ability called Aegis of light x times/day, but leave smite alone.
There was a feat for this called Divine Shield or something, which existed in 2 versions, swift action and standard action. Both did the same thing, give the paladin a sacred bonus to ac equal to paladin's charisma modifier, the swift action was for 1 round, the standard action was for charisma modifier rounds.
Concluding on smite: I suggest instead of making all these changes to the paladin class abilities, just incorporate these feats into play or, if you do not like them as feats a paladin must take, put them in as class abilities but don't make smite a swiss knife that does everything at once and is cheap to boot.
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Back to the playtesting: To make for an interesting encounter that would check things up, I had the party run accross 3 mirrors of opposition. They each picked an enemy and fought with them. The real paladin was pitted against the mirror barbarian, the real fighter was pitted against the mirror paladin, and the real barbarian was pitted against the mirror fighter.
Conclusions:
The real paladin obliterated the mirror barbarian who, being evil could not survive the pounding of all those rounds of full smite combined with power attack.
The real fighter whopped the mirror paladin. He took the initiative, and trips/disarms/sunders put the evil side of the holy fighter out of commission. He did do a number on the fighter with smite fists (which, for flavor purposes were not considered unarmed attacks provoking an attack of opportunity, because I dislike the idea of a smite fist being something that would be considered an 'unarmed attack, but either way the paladin lost in the end so this is not important. with full rules he would have just lost faster.), but in the end the fighter prevailed by making good use of his feat array.
The real barbarian blew away the real fighter who, paniced by the barbarian's howl rage ability, dropped his shield and sword and was pinned to the floor by knockbacks and the like until he was dead, dead dead.
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Of course as DM I had a general suspicion that this is how things would have come out, which is why I arranged the pairings this way. All in all, what bothered me was the ease through which the paladin creamed the barbarian, but with smite lasting for a full attack and the paladin's sword through the celestial union being made a speed weapon, the damage combined with power attack was pretty far out there.
The ease with which the barbarian demolished the mirror fighter also surprised me but then again that was all in the intimidate check. Had he failed to intimidate the mirror fighter, he would have been able to harass the barb with his feats to criminal porportions,as fighters often do.
For fun and games, I ran the paladin vs barb fight again, this time using the 3.5 paladin. The result did not change, but the paladin had to play a bit smarter with his smites. He was out of smites after teh encounter unlike in the PF version, and he was wounded more, but he made use of his lay on hands to get out of it.
In the pathfinder fight, the paladin did not bother using lay on hands, knowing that the barb's damage output could easily wipe the 7d6 healing (averaging 24.5 hps) in one hit.
All in all it was a battle of who would roll their critical threat range more, since bless weapon for the paladin and a rage ability from the barbarian both automatically confirm their crits.
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Thats it for now, I hope it helps. Let me know if you found this of any use, and I'll run another.
The mirror of opposition encounter was courtesy of mr. halaster blackstaff and his wonderful undermountain. The mage grinned in paranoid delight watching this fight in the miniature set of his cute dungeon that he holds in his own very last level.
PS:
I always found the idea of teleporting horses funny. It kind of breaks the spirit of fantasy roleplaying to me, teleporting horses. That however is strictly point of view, and the reason I encouraged the paladin to take the other form of celestial bond.
Clarification: The paladin did not bother to lay on hands in the PF version of the fight also because that would mean not using smite.
Thinking about it, if lay on hands were to be a swift action for any healiing purposes, i could see it replacing the 3.5 version of lay on hands in my campaigns.
Otherwise, well. I'll wait for the next revision before switching it to teh PF one, in my official campaigns.
a little too long to read all of it, but I'll give my thoughts anyway and just hope I am not repeating someone in the portion I skipped.
-smite evil
I am not sold on it lasting a round and adding a deflection bonus, a deflection bonus seems out of place since it strikes me as a raw offensive ability.
The round duration .. I rather like the idea of a single devastating blow more at the end of a charge, rarely will the paladin use it after charging because it's a waste of a full attack round of smiting.
I rather see more uses than 'smiting rounds'.
The 1d6 per level on outsiders and undead, + 2 will be better, less rolling and it makes for truly memorable crits since + 2 damage dice is multiplied, unlike added damage dice.
- laying on hands and channeling
I like the combined pool for laying on hands and channeling, though I'd much rather see laying on hands a use of channeling, which could also be available to clerics. mass cure spells start at lvl 5 for a reason and I very much dislike channeling going even beyond that going offensive with damaging and turning, I think the dread inspiring undead are a thing of the past.
swift LoH, I think it has just become a fasthealing ability for a number of rounds per day. this seems unnecesary, get it done after the encounter.
-spells
I propose three changes,
1)allow the spells to be cast as if affected by the quicken spell feat and
2)make them usable as spell-like abilities, though maybe a divine focus is still required to cast them.
3)please change the caster level to paladin level -3
I think casting a spell should not take a round of combat away from the paladin as that would largely mean a wasted round with his relatively weak spells, neither should he/she be forced to put away his/her weapon or shield to cast a spell, also I feel casting spells in a conventional way makes the paladin seem a bit stuffy rather than the shining knight it is supposed to be.
- divine bond
I like most of it, but I like to note I think in non-epic play
(level 20 and lower) you should not be able to enchant a weapon to + 6 enhancement (thus making it an epic weapon) I am fine with it being put in other abilities just want it to top out at + 5 enhancement.
Also I don't see why flaming/flaming burst is added, it does not have any real link to the paladin, at least not anymore so than say.. a shock weapon. I would consider outsider and undead bane fair game though, but smite evil should be reduced to make this viable, it would be overkill otherwise.
oh right a mount, I really dont see a point in it, most of my campaigns the mount is traded in for a feat and surely it will not compete with a weapon bond.
It does not really have to be the God's chosen weapon does it ? I dont like the concept, though I could live with it if it was say any sword for the typical paladinish God, or any hammer or axe for a paladin of moradin.. I think a paladin should be free in his weapon choice basically.
-other suggestions:
ARMOR TRAINING
I know it is a fighter ability, but it seems so right for the archetype paladin, the Ultimate Wearer of Fullplate, so umm.. please ?
FAVORED ENEMY : EVIL
basically I like the concept, the added bonus on skills and the damage bonus against the vilest creatures of them all, maybe evil as a whole is a bit much, but some archetypes like evil dragons, evil outsiders, evil clerics and undead... a persistent bonus of some kind in some form would be nice to have to complement the smiting power.
Clarification: The paladin did not bother to lay on hands in the PF version of the fight also because that would mean not using smite.
Thinking about it, if lay on hands were to be a swift action for any healiing purposes, i could see it replacing the 3.5 version of lay on hands in my campaigns.[...]
"for any healiing purposes"? well yes it is if the target is the Paladin.
"Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin target’s herself, in which case it is a swift action. ":-)
and divine power and other feats you mention in your post. Sorry to say, but thay are not 'open game license', so they won't happen
:-(
Zark aka TomJohn
The only thing I have to add to this discussion is the special mount; I like the old school mount that was a mundane mount that was imbued with power and intelligence. Kind of like a druid's companion. I never liked (or used) 3rd edition's version of calling the mount from some place else.
It may seem minor, but if one thing is changed, I'd like to see a more "down to earth" mount. Like AD&D and AD&D 2E.
I disagree with this. The new version of the paladin did what it needed to, make the paladin the best against evil outsiders and undead. That is their bread and butter far above anyone else. They are average against all the rest of the creatures.
That's great, but a 16th level Paladin with the full TWF combat tree can liquify a Pit Fiend or a Balor in something like two rounds. That's insane. Frankly, I believe that both this ability AND Sneak Attack need to be nerfed something fierce.
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The only thing I have to add to this discussion is the special mount; I like the old school mount that was a mundane mount that was imbued with power and intelligence. Kind of like a druid's companion. I never liked (or used) 3rd edition's version of calling the mount from some place else.
It may seem minor, but if one thing is changed, I'd like to see a more "down to earth" mount. Like AD&D and AD&D 2E.
So the paladin can jump on a normal creature, and imbue it with holy power?
I could see that.A decision would have to be made if these improvements were to bring all stats up to the level in the table, or enhancements to the existing creature. IE, Would the paladin gain any benefit from mounting an existing furious warhorse, over a brokeback nag? Or would the final effect be the same for both?
Of course, now I have a mental image of Prince Adam and Cringer, becoming He-Man and Battlecat.