Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Not that the title of this thread should be misleading or anything.
One of the gratuitous cheats of the druid is the ability to, with one single feat, eviscerate one of the primary limitations of being wild shaped - your inability to talk, use equipment, or cast spells.
This thread is primarily about the latter, so that's what I'll address quickly.
Natural Spell is like automatic free Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials for all spells. So a druid not only gets a free super-long-duration buff, which even after the scale-down in PF is pretty good stuff, but he also gets 2 free levels of metamagic on every spell while he's at it. That's a pretty sweet deal. In fact, no sane druid would ever be NOT wildshaped if he had any choice in the matter, which turns wild shape from a "neat ability I can use when I want to get physical or pick up useful abilities" into "absolute necessity that I realistically can't ever be without and always use all the time."
Which is, I think, icky.
So, a simple solution:
Since we are being backwards compatible, Natural Spell lets you do exactly what it says it does, but only ONCE PER WILD SHAPE. Still lets you do a surprise casting, or cast a spell in a pinch, but it puts WS back where it used to be - something a druid would use for utility or for combat, not to be a portable spellcasting hovertank.
You wanna cast another spell, use another Wild Shape and your Natural Spell feat resets. Otherwise, you want to cast spells with paws and slavering animal jaws, suck it up and take the same metamagic feats any other shapechanger needs to take, and pay the metamagic level tax any other shapechanger needs to pay.
(as a side note, elementals can talk, so if you WS into one you don't need Silent Spell).
As a final aside, I do have two brief rants on the first two subjects.
1. The first (talking) is easily remedied if someone in your party has telepathic bond, and you can still understand even if you can't talk.
2. As to wearing equipment, that problem has actually been made worse in PF, as a lot of your wearable magic STILL WORKS in wildshape. This is pretty ick to me.
I understand the argument from simplicity for the player (like if you polymorph into a giant you keep your stuff but a bear you don't, but what about a dragon? What can it wear? Bleah.), but it suddenly makes it hard for opponents to countermeasure equipment (rod of negation, dispel magic, other destructo-spells, the much-hated Sunder, or even rolling a natural 1 on a save). The druid still gets to use all of his stuff, but since it's on his insidey-parts it is essentially invulnerable to damage.
Add to this wild armor and shield, and you can have a druid in wild full plate, which is then absorbed into his body but he still gets the armor bonus, then has his buddy cast a mage armor on him (ick; a cheat anyway, but I could see some people allowing it) and in any case not having to worry about movement penalties or armor check penalties, blah blah.
Conclude nerdrage about wild armor.
Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while using wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while using wild shape.
So I'm looking at the feat and I don't read it the way you do. You say it gives you free silent spell, still spell, and eschew materials, I read "You substitute various noises...". So this makes me believe that all the verbal and somatic components are required just as they are with a non-wild shaped caster. Eschew Materials... well maybe. You certainly can't sunder the druids spell focus while she's wild shaped.
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Yes it's an automatic still and silent and eschew material except when I'm being grappled bind through whatever means that prevents somatic components I won't be able to cast it without using still spell. If under a silenced in some way I still suffer the penalties of being silenced. Oh not to mention if I don't have the material component on me when I wildshaped I still won't be able to cast the spell.
Natural Spell is like automatic free Silent Spell, Still Spell, Eschew Materials for all spells. So a druid not only gets a free super-long-duration buff, which even after the scale-down in PF is pretty good stuff, but he also gets 2 free levels of metamagic on every spell while he's at it. That's a pretty sweet deal. In fact, no sane druid would ever be NOT wildshaped if he had any choice in the matter, which turns wild shape from a "neat ability I can use when I want to get physical or pick up useful abilities" into "absolute necessity that I realistically can't ever be without and always use all the time."
Here is how the feat is currently written:
You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while using wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.
You can also use any material components of focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form.
So this basically allows you to cast spells while Wild Shaped and gives you a situational Eschew Materials. It does not allow someone to cast a spell as if it was Silent or Stilled - they still have to be able to move and make noise. And given the fact that all of your gear melds into your form whenever you Wild Shape and not all of your forms are capable of manipulating material components, I believe that this situational implementation of Eschew Materials is appropriate.
Since we are being backwards compatible, Natural Spell lets you do exactly what it says it does, but only ONCE PER WILD SHAPE. Still lets you do a surprise casting, or cast a spell in a pinch, but it puts WS back where it used to be - something a druid would use for utility or for combat, not to be a portable spellcasting hovertank.
Mages are capable of being portable spellcasting hovertanks. So is anyone else with Winged Boots or Wings of Flight. So why are Druids forbidden from being able to use their class abilities to do the same thing? Would it be any worse if they had magical items to accomplish the same goal? They can only Wild Shape so many times per day, and given the utility of the ability, not every Druid may wish to hold all of their Wild Shaping in reserve for aerial bombardment.
2. As to wearing equipment, that problem has actually been made worse in PF, as a lot of your wearable magic STILL WORKS in wildshape. This is pretty ick to me.
I understand the argument from simplicity for the player (like if you polymorph into a giant you keep your stuff but a bear you don't, but what about a dragon? What can it wear? Bleah.), but it suddenly makes it hard for opponents to countermeasure equipment (rod of negation, dispel magic, other destructo-spells, the much-hated Sunder, or even rolling a natural 1 on a save). The druid still gets to use all of his stuff, but since it's on his insidey-parts it is essentially invulnerable to damage.
Your equipment may meld into your form, and you may continue to benefit from items that grant you constant bonuses that are melded, but that doesn't mean that their effects can't be dispelled. Druids do have an advantage in that their items can't be Sundered while Wild Shaped, but for the purposes of this example, they are going to be airborne, so their equipment couldn't be Sundered by melee attacks anyway.
A Wild Shaped Druid wouldn't be able to activate any items melded into his/her form anyway. If you want to use that Rod of Negation, you'll have to drop it before you Wild Shape and then pick it up after you change shape. That may not be possible in all circumstances.
Add to this wild armor and shield, and you can have a druid in wild full plate, which is then absorbed into his body but he still gets the armor bonus
If a Druid is willing to shell out the cash for a suit of Wild Full Plate Armor & Shield, more power to them. Druids aren't gaining the kind of massive STR, DEX, CON, and HP bonuses that they used to in 3.5 (thank god). Morphing into a form that had a high CON allowed Druids to pretty much wade into battle without necessarily having much regard for their AC, but Pathfinder RPG Druids are going to need all the help that they can get if they want to be a Wild Shaped Brawler. There's no more of this using STR, DEX, and CON as dump stats that magically jump up from 08 to 32 when it's time for combat - any Druid that wants to melee while Wild Shaped will need to have a decent AC and will also need to put their highest ability scores into STR, CON, and DEX if they want to be on par with member of the "regular" melee classes.
then has his buddy cast a mage armor on him (ick; a cheat anyway, but I could see some people allowing it)
If someone DOES allow this in their game, they need to be slapped with a trout.
and in any case not having to worry about movement penalties or armor check penalties, blah blah.
I suggest that the description of the "Wild" special ability be amended to state that anyone gaining an armor bonus from the melded armor has to apply the regular armor check and movement penalties that the armor would normally convey.
The druid's wildshape has already been heavily nerfed. There's no need to crap on them further.
I suggest that the description of the "Wild" special ability be amended to state that anyone gaining an armor bonus from the melded armor has to apply the regular armor check and movement penalties that the armor would normally convey.
There's nothing in the current description to say it isn't already applied, but agreed it should be clear.
I really don't get the problem with natural spell.
It doesn't give still spell or silent spell AT ALL.
Eventually you don't have to have the material component in hand when you're grappled to cast the spell, but you still need your component pouch with you when you wild shape.
For the wild armor, if it can protect you when it is melded with you, it's because it's exposed in some way to exterior threats, so why shouldn't it be vulnerable to 1 rolled save ?
I also like Natural Spell as it is.
If you do not like flying spellcasting druids, ban Fly spell for arcane casters, Air Walk for Clerics, Boots of Flight for any kind of Archer characters or just use your head and do not allow a druid to use his animal's wings in the same round that he casts a spells. And if he is flying and tries this, he immediately starts falling and has to try to stop himself before hitting the floor hard, not to mention casting a spell during falling asking for a Spellcraft check to not lose the spell.
I saw an awful lot of abuse with it in 3.5, and wouldn't have minded some limitations in place then. That said, feelings seem to be very strongly in favor of keeping it as-is... possibly the nerf to wild shape is enough. I'll need to see our weekly playtest druid use it before making up my mind.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Our Druid, his party and the DM (Me) have no problem with natural spell, and we've actually used it in real play in both 3.5 and Pathfinder. My group isn't prone to abusing systems (I'm probably the second worst offender when it's my turn to be a player, after the player who prefers to focus his characters on a gimmick to the point of dysfunction) but it certainly hasn't caused us any problems that he's flying around the battlefield casting spells.
Like in all of these balance arguments, I wonder if the OP has actually come across this game-wrecking druid he's crusading against, or if this is all handwaving.
That would be me, and I have both come up against as a DM and have played as a player the game-wrecking druid with soopa-deluxe casting on top of soopa-deluxe wild shape.
I'm not one to really go off on infinite loops of theoretical crusading about the logic of the system for things that don't actually come up in real game play.
I also like Natural Spell as it is.
If you do not like flying spellcasting druids, ban Fly spell for arcane casters, Air Walk for Clerics, Boots of Flight for any kind of Archer characters or just use your head and do not allow a druid to use his animal's wings in the same round that he casts a spells. And if he is flying and tries this, he immediately starts falling and has to try to stop himself before hitting the floor hard, not to mention casting a spell during falling asking for a Spellcraft check to not lose the spell.
In my experience, the problem is not the fact of having a flying spellcaster. The problem of eagle shaped druid is that an eagle does not necessary raise much suspicion. At least, not as much as a flying wizard. Even if the eagle-shaped wizard does cast a spell, how long should it take, realistically speaking, for your NPC to realize that the spell is coming from that eagle? Nowhere is it said that you can't notice it right away, but it just creates another of those "oh come on!" moments. Many NPCs would just be as likely to waste a see invisibility spell before they realize their errors.
Also, the eagle has a good speed and maneuverability, often superior to those of mid level creatures, spells and magic items. Mobility is a huge asset for spellcaster, and Wild Shape + Natural spells gives the druid just that without spending time to change or cast a new spell. Since one can use the run action when flying, this means that your spellcaster can suddenly be 400 ft. away in a single round and cast any long range spell the following.
And unlike all the flying spells, wild shape cannot be dispelled nor necessitate the sacrifice of a carefully prepared spell from the druid.
Of course one can make house rules, but otherwise, it is not specified how spellcasting interact with flight. Also, facing must be taken in consideration when flying (unless you have perfect maneuverability). Should this also influence potential target acquisition?
All in all, it is a very powerful option for the druid. Whether it is too powerful or not may be questionable, but it is not merely comparable to a flying/airwalking.
'findel
I'm all for keeping it as is. I don't read any "free silent and still spell while utilizing this feat" clause, and I think that Druid's Wild Shape nerf is more than enough to bring it back in line with other casters.
In my experience, the problem is not the fact of having a flying spellcaster. The problem of eagle shaped druid is that an eagle does not necessary raise much suspicion. At least, not as much as a flying wizard. Even if the eagle-shaped wizard does cast a spell, how long should it take, realistically speaking, for your NPC to realize that the spell is coming from that eagle? Nowhere is it said that you can't notice it right away, but it just creates another of those "oh come on!" moments. Many NPCs would just be as likely to waste a see invisibility spell before they realize their errors.
Also, the eagle has a good speed and maneuverability, often superior to those of mid level creatures, spells and magic items. Mobility is a huge asset for spellcaster, and Wild Shape + Natural spells gives the druid just that without spending time to change or cast a new spell. Since one can use the run action when flying, this means that your spellcaster can suddenly be 400 ft. away in a single round and cast any long range spell the following.
And unlike all the flying spells, wild shape cannot be dispelled nor necessitate the sacrifice of a carefully prepared spell from the druid.
Of course one can make house rules, but otherwise, it is not specified how spellcasting interact with flight. Also, facing must be taken in consideration when flying (unless you have perfect maneuverability). Should this also influence potential target acquisition?
All in...
Well I had this argument a few months ago and the result is that a Spellcraft check can immediately reveal to anyone who succeeds that "Eagle" is the caster. The only thing preventing them is the distance of the Eagle and needed Spot/Listen check to see him casting.
And of course Wild shape can be dispelled, only Ex abilities cannot be dispelled and Wild shape is not that. Also a character with a really good perception can spot a druid inside the animal form if he passes a opposed check against the Disguise (and spends few rounds just observing the wild shaped druid).
And if it isn't specified who wild shaped spellcasting while flying works it does not mean it works like you want it to work. As you said, it is not specified. But then you go through existing rules that say you need at least one hand free to cast spells and Nature Spell feat says you use animal's movements to substitute for normal ones and it is pretty logical to say you need to use the birds wings to substitute for hands. You interpretation is as much a house rules as is mine. But do not complain about the overpoweredness of the feat then if you make these kind of house rules.
And yes, facing should be taken into consideration.
Oh, yea, unless they are fighting that druid on a flat tundra, that druid will only nerf himself if he flies 400 ft away since he will lose sight of his target. That gives the PCs a chance to hide and ready their actions when he comes around to find them.
Something about fighting a druid on a flat tundra
A little OT:
This sounds like an interesting encouter. ;)|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Well I had this argument a few months ago and the result is that a Spellcraft check can immediately reveal to anyone who succeeds that "Eagle" is the caster. The only thing preventing them is the distance of the Eagle and needed Spot/Listen check to see him casting.
And of course Wild shape can be dispelled, only Ex abilities cannot be dispelled and Wild shape is not that.
Actually, no. Courtesy of our old friend the SRD:
"Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic."
Also a character with a really good perception can spot a druid inside the animal form if he passes a opposed check against the Disguise (and spends few rounds just observing the wild shaped druid).
Since most druids aren't going to go high in Charisma or spend ranks on Disguise, this Spot check is really not that hard (and it just requires interacting with the druid; and having the druid cast a spell in your direction would count as interacting in my book), unless the druid is a good distance away, since Spot goes up 1 in DC for every 10 feet.
And if it isn't specified who wild shaped spellcasting while flying works it does not mean it works like you want it to work. As you said, it is not specified. But then you go through existing rules that say you need at least one hand free to cast spells and Nature Spell feat says you use animal's movements to substitute for normal ones and it is pretty logical to say you need to use the birds wings to substitute for hands. You interpretation is as much a house rules as is mine. But do not complain about the overpoweredness of the feat then if you make these kind of house rules.
It would be a good place to have a rule about exactly what "using the animal's movements" means. Are a bird's "hands" its wings or its claws? Given that its lower limbs (claws) are its manipulative limbs and its upper limbs (wings) are its movement limbs, it reverses the pattern of a human. In effect, its wings are its "legs" (in functional terms) even though they are in the anatomic location of a human's arms. You could make a logical case either way.
I wouldn't mind making druids land to flap their wings and cast a spell, but there is no clear rule on it.
And yes, facing should be taken into consideration.
Unfortunately, in 3rd Ed D&D it isn't. 1st and 2nd, absolutely. 3rd? Not.
Oh, yea, unless they are fighting that druid on a flat tundra, that druid will only nerf himself if he flies 400 ft away since he will lose sight of his target. That gives the PCs a chance to hide and ready their actions when he comes around to find them.
Indoors, not a big deal. Lots of buildings around, also helpful.
Outdoors, a druid 200 feet up casting Medium and Long-range spells is hard to spot. Of course you can take cover if there are trees and stuff around. This requires:
1. That you get to pick the battlefield, not the druid.
2. That you can tell the spells are coming from above you.
3. That you haven't been entangled or bogged down in a transmute rock to mud, plant growth, wall of thorns, soften earth and stone, or some such thing that impedes your ability to move to cover.
Yes, you have resources and your own countermeasures and you should darn well use them, but the druid's ability does give it the initial leg (wing?) up... :)
I was thinking this was the case when I wrote what did, but took my chance. Thanks for putting me straight. OK, druid Wildshape cannot be dispelled, I still do not see it a such a big problem.
I just read the Paizo version of Disguise skill for the 1st time and I must say I do not like it. My statement was based on previous versions of Disguise. This actually makes it even easier to spot the Druid (easier then the Spellcraft check) so it should soothe the other poster worries.[quote=]It would be a good place to have a rule about exactly what "using the animal's movements" means. Are a bird's "hands" its wings or its claws? Given that its lower limbs (claws) are its manipulative limbs and its upper limbs (wings) are its movement limbs, it reverses the pattern of a human. In effect, its wings are its "legs" (in functional terms) even though they are in the anatomic location of a human's arms. You could make a logical case either way.
I wouldn't mind making druids land to flap their wings and cast a spell, but there is no clear rule on it.
You are right, I never looked at it like that. I was always looking at it from a anatomic point.
Still, in my games wings=hands, and you cannot cast and fly at the same time.Some clearance of this would be appreciated.
Actually when flying your facing is still important and that is what we were talking about.[quote=]Indoors, not a big deal. Lots of buildings around, also helpful.
Outdoors, a druid 200 feet up casting Medium and Long-range spells is hard to spot. Of course you can take cover if there are trees and stuff around. This requires:
1. That you get to pick the battlefield, not the druid.
2. That you can tell the spells are coming from above you.
3. That you haven't been entangled or bogged down in a transmute rock to mud, plant growth, wall of thorns, soften earth and stone, or some such thing that impedes your ability to move to cover.
That Druid 200 feet up is just as easy to spot as are the people on the ground, he might even have more problems with flying, wind and all that.
1. How is this different from when fighting a wizard/sorcerer that comes prepared and attacks you?
2. Well, for some you will know, and for some you will not. But a successful Perception check should reveal the culprit (if nobody in the group has a maxed out Perception then that group deserves what is coming)
3. Druid is not the only one with these kind of spells.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I was thinking this was the case when I wrote what did, but took my chance. Thanks for putting me straight. OK, druid Wildshape cannot be dispelled, I still do not see it a such a big problem.
I just read the Paizo version of Disguise skill for the 1st time and I must say I do not like it. My statement was based on previous versions of Disguise. This actually makes it even easier to spot the Druid (easier then the Spellcraft check) so it should soothe the other poster worries.[quote=]It would be a good place to have a rule about exactly what "using the animal's movements" means. Are a bird's "hands" its wings or its claws? Given that its lower limbs (claws) are its manipulative limbs and its upper limbs (wings) are its movement limbs, it reverses the pattern of a human. In effect, its wings are its "legs" (in functional terms) even though they are in the anatomic location of a human's arms. You could make a logical case either way.
I wouldn't mind making druids land to flap their wings and cast a spell, but there is no clear rule on it.
You are right, I never looked at it like that. I was always looking at it from a anatomic point.
Still, in my games wings=hands, and you cannot cast and fly at the same time.Some clearance of this would be appreciated.
Actually when flying your facing is still important and that is what we were talking about.Nope. There's still no facing. There is direction of movement - some maneuverability classes don't allow you to reverse direction, flying effectively "forwards" and then "backwards" as you could on land. You have to spend a certain amount of movement to turn your move. However, at every point, you still see in all directions, your shield (if you have one) protects in all directions, and you, within your space, have no assumed facing.
It's a strange distinction, but essentially while your movement has something like facing, you yourself don't. Within the space you occupy as a creature, you face all directions at once.
wrote:
Indoors, not a big deal. Lots of buildings around, also helpful.Outdoors, a druid 200 feet up casting Medium and Long-range spells is hard to spot. Of course you can take cover if there are trees and stuff around. This requires:
1. That you get to pick the battlefield, not the druid.
2. That you can tell the spells are coming from above you.
3. That you haven't been entangled or bogged down in a transmute rock to mud, plant growth, wall of thorns, soften earth and stone, or some such thing that impedes your ability to move to cover.
That Druid 200 feet up is just as easy to spot as are the people on the ground, he might even have more problems with flying, wind and all that.
Actually, no.
The bird is most likely tiny or small, which gives a bonus to Hide/Stealth checks, and wearing no armor. The party is likely made up of mostly Medium humanoids (and possibly Large mounts), some of whom will be in armor. Some characters may be hard to spot, but the party as a whole will be easy to notice.
Also, while wind might affect his movement (though he has plenty of movement to spare, as well as magic to control winds and make them more favorable for himself in birdie form) it doesn't affect Perception (except for listening). Furthermore, a druid in bird form may gain a racial bonus to Perception checks; I'd have to look at PF; in 3.0/3.5 you would get Spot bonus for most birds.
Finally, the druid being in the appearance of a natural animal is not obviously a druid. True, a Perception vs. Disguise check can penetrate that, but the shapechange gives +10 to Disguise and the distance here gives another +20. Even if the druid has no Charisma bonus, if he takes 10 on his Diguise check, the DC to notice the druid at that distance being anything other than an ordinary bird is 40. DC 40. That means a PC would need a +20 Perception bonus to even have a chance to notice the bird = disguised druid ON A NATURAL 20.
Up close, it's not hard to see through a druid's disguise. At a distance, it's really hard. If there's only one bird in the sky, logical deduction would suggest a wildshaped druid as a possibility. If the druid has charmed a couple of local birds to fly around, or used a low-level SNA spell or two to whistle up some birds from nowhere, now you have a bunch of targets and no real way to tell which might be a druid and which might be normal wildlife.
1. How is this different from when fighting a wizard/sorcerer that comes prepared and attacks you?I was addressing your specific example (assuming that a flying druid wouldn't be able to do much against a party because they could easily take cover). The same could be said about any ranged attacker when you are caught in defilade.
My statement was simply to point out that your ability to "just take cover" depends entirely on the situation where the battle occurs. If you get to choose the battlefield, you can choose terrain that is to your advantage. If the druid attacks you in a place where there is no readily available cover... then you can't run to cover. Ditto for a squad of bandit archers, a sor/wiz, rock-throwing giants, or anything else.
2. Well, for some you will know, and for some you will not. But a successful Perception check should reveal the culprit (if nobody in the group has a maxed out Perception then that group deserves what is coming)Sure, but a druid bothering to be sneaky/stealthy won't cast spells that have an obvious point of origin (though none of those are really leaping to mind on the druid list).
Also, the PCs can certainly make a Perception check, and they'll perceive chipmunks bushes around them, and field mice in the grass, and a couple of birds flying in the sky, and any number of other ambient natural creatures, none of which is obviously a spellcasting druid but any of which could be.
Perception lets you notice stuff; it gives you perceptual information. It doesn't help you interpret stuff or make judgments based on the information you receive.
Actually, a sneaky rat-bastard druid would charm an animal or two and have it act a little funny, flapping its wings or waving its little paws strangely, whenever he was casting spells, so that the party would think it was the spellcasting druid.
3. Druid is not the only one with these kind of spells.Sure, but we were talking about druids, and those are some of the spells that a druid would use to prevent you from running to cover.
Do you really get to not need the material component? You still need to have them before changing shape and I'd rule that they're consumed so that you don't have them when you're changed back.
Natural Spell lets you use material components even if melded into the form. But you still have to have them, and they still get used up.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Do you really get to not need the material component? You still need to have them before changing shape and I'd rule that they're consumed so that you don't have them when you're changed back.Natural Spell lets you use material components even if melded into the form. But you still have to have them, and they still get used up.
Beat me to it!
Yeah, the advantage is just the hands/wings/paws free end of things.
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Natural Spell lets you use material components even if melded into the form. But you still have to have them, and they still get used up.
Yeah, that's what I thought, so why is it supposed to be like Eschew Materials? It's not like anyone cares about pulling the materials out when playing (they just require the somatic component when it's specified, but that's a different issue).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah, that's what I thought, so why is it supposed to be like Eschew Materials? It's not like anyone cares about pulling the materials out when playing (they just require the somatic component when it's specified, but that's a different issue).Natural Spell lets you use material components even if melded into the form. But you still have to have them, and they still get used up.
The only relevance (and it's a small one) is not needing a hand free to hold the stuff and not being able to have your component pouch or focus stolen, disarmed, sundered, or otherwise zapped.
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The only relevance (and it's a small one) is not needing a hand free to hold the stuff and not being able to have your component pouch or focus stolen, disarmed, sundered, or otherwise zapped.
Fair enough. I guess I haven't ever pulled those tricks (at least not until after the caster has already been defeated).
As I said, my mind is not set on whether or not Natural Spell is a broken feat and should thus be nerfed or banished. I do however consider spellcasting in wild shape a very powerful asset for the druid, and I continue to argue that the situation is not similar to an invisible flying wizard.
First, the fact that wild shape cannot be dispelled is a big advantage. Dispel Magic is a good weapon against annoyingly out-of-reach wizards. If you can't get to the wizard, bring the wizard back to where you can reach him...
Second, casting fly and invisibility involves spending two precious 3rd level spells (and two rounds). At mid levels when the druid gets the ability to change into small animals, two 3rd level spells count for a lot! Those spells had to be prepared, which imply that the wizard had to foresee its use over, lets say, a couple of fireballs.
That's excluding the metagaming factor that one is immediately looking to the skies instead of a tree-shaped druid or invisible wizard because there is an eagle figurine on the battlemap.
Hiding in plain sight is often more powerful than being invisible, for only higher level divination spells reveal a shapedchanged creature for what it is.
Again, I'm not sure whether this is too powerful or not, but it is definitively not comparable to an invisible flying wizard or sanctuary air walking cleric.
'findel
Yeah, that's what I thought, so why is it supposed to be like Eschew Materials? It's not like anyone cares about pulling the materials out when playing (they just require the somatic component when it's specified, but that's a different issue).Natural Spell lets you use material components even if melded into the form. But you still have to have them, and they still get used up.
It's not supposed to be like Eschew Materials. NS gives you the ability to access the components you possess while in wild form but EM lets you do without the 1gp or less ones altogether.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I was asking the question of the OP, who did say that it was like Eschew Materials.
It's not supposed to be like Eschew Materials. NS gives you the ability to access the components you possess while in wild form but EM lets you do without the 1gp or less ones altogether.
My hyperbole was lost in translation; hence my subsequent thread about "Natural Spell - Change! Change! Change!" or something like that.
Much less fun of a title, even if more factually accurate...
I was asking the question of the OP, who did say that it was like Eschew Materials.
It's not supposed to be like Eschew Materials. NS gives you the ability to access the components you possess while in wild form but EM lets you do without the 1gp or less ones altogether.
My bad. I thought you were replying to Repairman Jack.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to require Druids to choose whether they want to use Wildshape or have the ability to cast at any given time. I think spending a feat to let them do both at the same time is clearly much too powerful for a feat.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to require Druids to choose whether they want to use Wildshape or have the ability to cast at any given time. I think spending a feat to let them do both at the same time is clearly much too powerful for a feat.
But wildshape is not a feat. You're combining a limited (x/day) class ability and a feat. Also, Natural Spell (useless when not wildshaped)doesn't give them the ability to hide the somatic component, or make the spell silent. You see them acting. You hear them. Recognition is a different matter.
Yes, you may not notice that that wolf is acting strangely until you get blasted or that hawk is too far away to spot but those are based on circumstances.
Don't forget that wildshape has other possible negatives, such as AC reduction and loss of standard communication.
But wildshape is not a feat.
But Natural Spell is. I'm afraid I don't see your point.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to require Druids to choose whether they want to use Wildshape or have the ability to cast at any given time. I think spending a feat to let them do both at the same time is clearly much too powerful for a feat.
How do you feel about this feat. With the additional feats available in RPG this would be easy to incorporate.
NATURAL SPEECH FEAT
This feat allow a transformed creature to alter their transformation enough to allow rough speech. The included a druid's wild shape or a polymorphed creature. This feat does not allow the necessary vocalization to cast spells.
This feat could be a prerequisite for natural spell. Thereby bridging what many feel is too good of a feat.
Unless the druid is against non-spell casters, using the "have other critters wave their paws" trick doesn't really work. Any spell caster I've ever met has spell craft /maxed/. Identifying spells while they are being cast really isn't that difficult under the rules. Wildshape and Natural spell don't give any bonus to the druid when it comes to the SC check to tell they are casting a spell.
This would require the caster in question to have a good perception roll- but they should probably have that anyway.
It's very important to Not give "natural spell" anything extra than what the feat says it gives. We, as players of a game, like to introduce our real world logic into the game. We just can't do that. Natural spell gives them the ability to cast spells in animal form. Period. They still make noises, they still make movements, and the components are still required. Unless the feat says otherwise (and here, it doesn't), nothing else about spell casting is modified.
Being smaller modifies your spot check. Not being humanoid Does Not currently affect the rolls needed to check for spell casting. It just doesn't. Anyone allowing it to do so is actually adding a fairly substantial buff to the feat.
-S
I may be in the minority here, but I think druids shouldn't need to have a feat to do this. Honestly, material components are ignored so readily in most games that eschew seems unnecessary as well. Just let druids cast in wildshape form and be done with it.
But wildshape is not a feat.But Natural Spell is. I'm afraid I don't see your point.
The rest of my post says it.
It may be presumptuous but is your argument one that you can/should only be able to use one ability/feat at a time? If so, there are other cases for and against this as it applies to other feat combinations.
It may be presumptuous but is your argument one that you can/should only be able to use one ability/feat at a time? If so, there are other cases for and against this as it applies to other feat combinations.
I'd say it would depend on the ability/feat. For example,
I'm sure there are other examples as well.
It may be presumptuous but is your argument one that you can/should only be able to use one ability/feat at a time?I'd say it would depend on the ability/feat. For example,
Monks can move really fast OR flurry, but currently can't do both (although those are their two primary abilities).
In a broader sense, no one can move more than 5 ft. and get a full attack in (although spellcasters can take a full move and still cast a spell, making them dramatically more effective as mobile combatants than are any of the fighting-types -- and wild shaping into a fast-flying animal form exacerbates that discrepancy still more).
Most of the Combat feats are now swift-action activated, which of course means 1/round only.
Barbarians can't rage and use complex skills, although they get 4 skill points/level (and isn't there a rage power that lets them do other things while raging)? I'm sure there are other examples as well.
Oh yeah. I'm just trying to understand the argument better. There are lots of examples of feat combinations/exclusions.
Maybe if we had a clear outline of feat types, so that we could determine which ones could be combined; active versus passive? And include class abilities. Maybe this already exists and I just don't know it? Our DM never brought it up when I played 3.5, and I've just recently started DMing again with PF.
Maybe if we had a clear outline of feat types, so that we could determine which ones could be combined; active versus passive? And include class abilities. Maybe this already exists and I just don't know it?
That's a great idea; to the best of my knowledge, no such index exists. In the case of the monk (no flurry + movement) and fighter (1 combat feat/round) I do see a clear trend that says, if I interpret it correctly, "If a class has two major capabilities, it can't use them both at the same time." Spellcasting and wild shape seem like a prime example of that. The fact that Natural Spell breaks that rule and allows them to be used in tandem implies to me that either (a) Natural Spell is a "too good" anomaly, insofar as it removes this limitation only for druids, and not for anyone else; or else (b) monks should have an equivalent feat allowing them to move and flurry, and fighters should have a feat allowing them to use multiple combat feats simultaneously, or move and full attack, or whatever. Personally, I greatly prefer the latter (as I've probably made far too clear on other threads!).
Maybe if we had a clear outline of feat types, so that we could determine which ones could be combined; active versus passive? And include class abilities. Maybe this already exists and I just don't know it?That's a great idea; to the best of my knowledge, no such index exists. In the case of the monk (no flurry + movement) and fighter (1 combat feat/round) I do see a clear trend that says, if I interpret it correctly, "If a class has two major capabilities, it can't use them both at the same time." Spellcasting and wild shape seem like a prime example of that. The fact that Natural Spell breaks that rule and allows them to be used in tandem implies to me that either (a) Natural Spell is a "too good" anomaly, insofar as it removes this limitation only for druids, and not for anyone else; or else (b) monks should have an equivalent feat allowing them to move and flurry, and fighters should have a feat allowing them to use multiple combat feats simultaneously, or move and full attack, or whatever. Personally, I greatly prefer the latter (as I've probably made far too clear on other threads!).
I'm in favor of the latter as well, and that's what our 3.5 DM has gotten me used to. A druid choosing btwn spellcasting OR wildshaping pretty much nukes Natural Spell as a feat and I'm definitely against that. Again, basing this on personal experience, it was never a game breaker for our 3.5 campaign. It simply copied the flying spellcaster motif from the arcane schools.
Where are the fighter's feat combo limitations noted? As I've said before our 3.5 DM never restricted feat combinations unless they were specifically pointed out.
Where are the fighter's feat combo limitations noted? As I've said before our 3.5 DM never restricted feat combinations unless they were specifically pointed out.
It's a new nerf, kicking the fighter when he's down. In the Beta, Dodge (for example) is activated as a swift action each round. Ditto for Arcane Strike, and for many (if not most) of the other combat-oriented feats. Because, officially, you're limited to one swift action per round, that means that (according to the rules) it's impossible to use two of those "swift activation" feats in the same round.
Where are the fighter's feat combo limitations noted? As I've said before our 3.5 DM never restricted feat combinations unless they were specifically pointed out.It's a new nerf, kicking the fighter when he's down. In the Beta, Dodge (for example) is activated as a swift action each round. Ditto for Arcane Strike, and for many (if not most) of the other combat-oriented feats. Because, officially, you're limited to one swift action per round, that means that (according to the rules) it's impossible to use two of those "swift activation" feats in the same round.
So, if we started by listing the abilities and feats with swift action activation we could get a sense of how many are impacted. I'm guessing they'd be active type feats. crystalkeep.com had a feat index for 3.5. That'd be a starting point. Maybe I'll get some time later this week.
So, if we started by listing the abilities and feats with swift action activation we could get a sense of how many are impacted.
Feats specifically requiring a swift activation activation: Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Strike, Dodge.
Feats that don’t specify whether they have a free or swift or no-action activation: Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim, Power Attack, Selective Channeling, Stunning Fist, Turn Elemental, Turning Smite, Weapon Swap.
Feats that cause you to give up iterative attacks (in effect, a move-action activation in most cases): Cleave, Deadly Stroke, Devastating Blow, Gorgon’s Fist, Great Cleave, Overhand Chop, Scorpion Style, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike.
So, if we started by listing the abilities and feats with swift action activation we could get a sense of how many are impacted.Feats specifically requiring a swift activation activation: Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Armor Mastery, Arcane Strike, Dodge.
Feats that don’t specify whether they have a free or swift or no-action activation: Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim, Power Attack, Selective Channeling, Stunning Fist, Turn Elemental, Turning Smite, Weapon Swap.
Feats that cause you to give up iterative attacks (in effect, a move-action activation in most cases): Cleave, Deadly Stroke, Devastating Blow, Gorgon’s Fist, Great Cleave, Overhand Chop, Scorpion Style, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike.
Gorgon's Fist and Selective Channeling are Standard action, you do not lose any move action to activate it. I do not know about others on your list but I think none of them ask for a move action to activate.
I downloaded the list at crystalkeep. Since it's so huge I'll focus on OGL and Pathfinder feats. I'm going to add a column for Active/Passive and Activation.
Based on your lists it certainly does look like the fighter feats took a hit.