Director of Games
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Hey there all,
Due to some trends in the recent Barbarian Rage design focus thread, I have put together an alternate system for barbarian rage for you to play with. Here are some caveats. First off, this is by no means complete, nor is it a decision on the direction we are taking. Second, this does not include any new rage powers. We will be adding some, but we want to get the system nailed down first (depending on the direction we take). It should be noted that under this system, the greater forms of rage cost the same to maintain as the base rage.
What do I want from you?
Simple. Use these rules and let me know how it goes. Is it simpler? Does it allow for the same level of customization? Is it as fun? More fun? Are there any parts of these rules that seem unclear or problematic? How about broken? How about underpowered?
Enjoy.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear’s endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day are renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
Rage Powers: As a barbarian gains experience, she learns to harness her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains one rage power. She gains an additional rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian can use her rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers are always active. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once. A barbarian can use the same power more than once during an individual rage. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions that must be performed on the barbarian’s turn.
Animal Fury (Ex): The barbarian may make a bite attack using her full base attack bonus plus her Strength modifier. If the bite hits, it deals 1d6 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d4 points of damage if Small) plus one half the barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can use this power while grappled. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
Clear Mind (Su): A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the save is failed. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex): The barbarian’s damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for 1 round. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire. This energy damage does not stack with energy damage dealt by special weapon abilities if it is of the same type. A barbarian must be at least 12th level before selecting this power.
Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against melee attacks for one round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
Intimidating Glare (Ex): The barbarian can make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe. If the barbarian successfully demoralizes her opponent, the foe is shaken for 1d4 rounds +1 round for 5 points she exceeds the DC.
Knockback (Ex): The barbarian can make one free bull rush attempt against one target hit in melee this round. The barbarian does not need to move back with the target if successful. This power is used as an immediate action after the attack roll is made.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gains low-light vision while raging.
Mighty Swing (Ex): The barbarian automatically confirms a critical hit. This power is used as an immediate action once a critical threat has been determined. A barbarian must be at least 12th level before selecting this power.
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day. This power can only be used once per minute.
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet for 1 round. A barbarian must have low-light vision as a rage power or a racial trait to select this rage power.
Powerful Blow (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 bonus to a single damage roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.
Quick Reflexes (Ex): The barbarian can make an additional attack of opportunity above the normal limit of one per round. This power is used as an immediate action when an opponent takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a standard action, the barbarian heals 1d8 points of damage + her Constitution modifier. For every four levels the barbarian has attained above 4th, this amount of damage healed increases by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 at 20th level. A barbarian must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per day.
Rolling Dodge (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against ranged attacks for 1 round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
Roused Anger (Ex): The barbarian may enter a rage even if fatigued. Once this rage ends, the barbarian is exhausted for a number of minutes equal to the number of rounds spent raging.
Strength Surge (Ex): The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check, or to her combat maneuver bonus when an opponent attempts a maneuver against her. This power is used as an immediate action. Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute.
Surprise Accuracy (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 morale bonus on one attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.
Swift Foot (Ex): The barbarian gains a 5-foot enhancement bonus to her speed. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack.
Terrifying Howl (Su): The barbarian unleashes a terrifying howl as a standard action. All shaken enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds. Once an enemy has made a save versus terrifying howl (successful or not) it is immune to this power for 24 hours. A barbarian must have the intimidating glare rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Unexpected Strike (Ex): The barbarian can make a free attack, at her highest attack bonus, against a foe that moves adjacent to the barbarian. Using this power is an immediate action that counts as an attack of opportunity. Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Jason,
On first glance, this looks extremely promising. It preserves the range and verstility of rage powers, and applies limitations to them (x/day, etc.) without the need for more elaborate record-keeping -- and using x rounds/day rather than y rounds z times/day (as in 3.5) actually simplifies things.
Well done indeed!
It should be noted that under this system, the greater forms of rage cost the same to maintain as the base rage.
A very welcome change indeed!
I'll let my players know of these alternate rules so they can be tested...
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Yes, I also really like this system. It manages to keep the feel of raging really well and doesn't have the per day limitation that always felt a bit off to me. I liked the reworking of the powers as well. I really like that there's less bookkeeping than the Rage Points iteration.
As for concerns, with 40+ rounds of rage at 20th level, it would be expected that a Barbarian is always raging at this point. I've never seen a Barbarian played at that level, but should he be able to rage all the time? This is not a complaint, I just want the input of how this might change the game at high levels for people who have played at these levels.
Also, have you given up on the Rage HP being Temporary hp? I really liked this idea. Particularly since it stops Barbarians from dropping dead if they ever reach 0 hp.
Particularly since it stops Barbarians from dropping dead if they ever reach 0 hp.
I like that they can die if they overdo it while raging -- it's beautifully true to the death of Kveldulf (the quintessential berserker) as described in Egil's Saga.
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I like that they can die if they overdo it while raging -- it's beautifully true to the death of Kveldulf (the quintessential berserker) as described in Egil's Saga.
Though I've no clue about this Egil's Saga, I see your point. It is kinda cool to have the Barbarian fighting until he's finally run through. It's like a free, more efficient Diehard feat. I just want some official closure on this matter other than the Sage saying that you somehow remain in a rage when you fall unconscious.
Must look up this Egil's Saga...
Must look up this Egil's Saga...
You can read it in translation (Icelandic to English) here.
"It is said of shape-strong men, or men with a fit of Berserk fury on them, that while the fit lasted they were so strong that nought could withstand them; but when it passed off, then they were weaker than their wont. Even so it was with Kveldulf. When the shape-strong fit went from him, then he felt exhaustion from the onset he had made, and became so utterly weak that he lay in bed... Shortly after this Kveldulf died."
Looks good.
I'll have to playtest it to give more feedback on how it actually plays, with 1 minute cooldown on more powerful ones,
and "free" usage of the rest... (perhaps my DM will let me switch Rage Powers around to test as many as possible)
BTW, How much time do we have remaining in this phase, to get play-test feedback in?
But just from reading the 'experimental' new rules, I noticed a few things:
Animal Fury/ Unexpected Strike:
Guarded Stance/ Rolling Dodge:
(I don't think +1/4 levels, or +5 @20th level is overpowered, certainly if it remains a Swift Action)
Powerful Blow/ Surprise Accuracy:
Strength Surge:
Of course if it did, it would seem much better than Powerful Blow/ Surprise Attack, especially if they are also limited to one attack.
I think this one could be both weakened and improved:
Allow it to apply to ONE regular damage attack, both to-hit and damage
(this would be contingent on improving Powerful Blow/ Surprise Accuracy in both size of bonus and applying to all attacks)
But instead of applying the FULL Barbarian Level to the ROLL, instead increase the Barbarian's STRENGTH by the full Level, effectively applying HALF the Barbarian's Level to one Attack/ CMB/ Strength check (while also giving an extra utility use of lifting very heavy items.) Having the 1 minute cool-down on this ability is a good limiter, and if Powerful Blow/ Surprise Accuracy can apply to ALL attacks for the Round, I think they would feel balanced amongst themselves.
Intimidating Glare/ Terrifying Howl:
Terrifying Howl now only applies to opponents who are ALREADY Shaken. Given that Intimidating Glare only applies to ONE opponent per Round, you are thus much more limited in the number of opponents you are likely to affect. I don't know if I like that. Perhaps Intimidating Glare should allow the number of opponents you affect to scale based on your Level, or perhaps the NUMBER OF HD you affect scales by Level.
I feel that Terrifying Howl should also apply a Shaken effect to those who aren't already Shaken... Probably either with NO Save/Check, or at a higher difficulty than normal Intimidate. To prevent characters from simply using this 2 rounds in a row to Howl->Shaken->Panicked, perhaps Terrifying Howl should be given a 1 minute cool-down.
I notice that Intimidating Glare is based on your Intimidate Skill, but Terrifying Howl is not. This could probably be unified more...???
Quick Reflexes:
...Or else (if still an Immediate Action), allow an extra effect such as taking a 5' move as an Immediate Action along with the extra AoO.
(that extra 5' step could also be taken DURING your regular turn, if you wish...?)
Roused Anger:
The (Rage Length) minutes of Exhaustion IS very effective at preventing you from using this Ability non-stop. You don't want to use this if you think there's any way you'll make it thru the encounter WITHOUT Rage, or if you think you might need to Rage AGAIN shortly after the second Rage... Although harsh, I also like the "Minutes of Exhaustion" because it's consistent with the "Minute Cool-Down" of the other stronger Powers.
Swift Foot:
This seems like option 2a. For clarification purposes, is animal fury in addition to your normal attacks?
Simple, but gives a lot of options. I like it!
What the Saga describes would be better modeled by STR damage and a penalty to Fortitude Saves.
Good news: Overall, this looks to be very promising.
Bad news: There are still some weak spots.
Animal Fury: EDIT, I'm functionally illiterate and misread the ability.
Guarded Stance/Rolling Dodge: Yay on being toned down, boo on them being separate. Mash ‘em together and you’ve got a rage power worth taking.
Increased DR: Too weak. DR 3/-- just ain’t cutting it. Make it increase the barbarian’s damage reduction by DR 1/--, and have it improve by DR 1/-- for every four barbarian levels the character has.
Elemental Rage: Still too weak. Converting half of the barbarian’s damage to energy damage would be better. At the very least, it needs to scale beyond +1d6. Twelfth level is too late for this ability—it needs to be selectable at around sixth level. Then you could have it improve by +1d6 for every additional four levels the barbarian has. (+4d6 damage per attack isn’t going to break the barbarian, especially if he’s smart and he trades out his other attacks for Vital Strike.
Low-Light Vision/Night Vision: Weak. Combine them into one ability, and then spice it up by giving the barbarian the ability to see through magical darkness at around eighth level.
Swift Foot: Very “meh.” It’d be better as a single ability that automatically improved.
Renewed Vigor: Scaling good, but still weak. If you’re going to leave it at a 1/day, it needs to be something with more “oomph”—like 1d8 + Con bonus + 2 HP/level. If you’re going to leave it weakened, it needs to be usable multiple times per day—perhaps 1/day at 4th level and then +1 time/day for every four levels thereafter.
Other than that, the barbarian’s abilities seem to be heading in the right direction.
Animal Fury: Why do they add only half their Strength modifier?
Probably because secondary attack forms always use 1/2 Str modifier, and they wanted to be consistent with that.
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Good news: Overall, this looks to be very promising.
Bad news: There are still some weak spots.
Animal Fury: Good. However, small barbarians get the shaft with this. Why do they add only half their Strength modifier?
Guarded Stance/Rolling Dodge: Yay on being toned down, boo on them being separate. Mash ‘em together and you’ve got a rage power worth taking.
Increased DR: Too weak. DR 3/-- just ain’t cutting it. Make it increase the barbarian’s damage reduction by DR 1/--, and have it improve by DR 1/-- for every four barbarian levels the character has.
Elemental Rage: Still too weak. Converting half of the barbarian’s damage to energy damage would be better. At the very least, it needs to scale beyond +1d6. Twelfth level is too late for this ability—it needs to be selectable at around sixth level. Then you could have it improve by +1d6 for every additional four levels the barbarian has. (+4d6 damage per attack isn’t going to break the barbarian, especially if he’s smart and he trades out his other attacks for Vital Strike.
Low-Light Vision/Night Vision: Weak. Combine them into one ability, and then spice it up by giving the barbarian the ability to see through magical darkness at around eighth level.
Swift Foot: Very “meh.” It’d be better as a single ability that automatically improved.
Renewed Vigor: Scaling good, but still weak. If you’re going to leave it at a 1/day, it needs to be something with more “oomph”—like 1d8 + Con bonus + 2 HP/level. If you’re going to leave it weakened, it needs to be usable multiple times per day—perhaps 1/day at 4th level and then +1 time/day for every four levels thereafter.
Other than that, the barbarian’s abilities seem to be heading in the right direction.
I was going to post my own assessment, but I find myself agreeing with most of P_R's points. My only changes in regards to his comments are: I think the DR is probably fine, and having the vision powers combined makes them attractive options for those with different types of vision (there should be a scent and blindsight/tremorsense version as well).
Finally: Having roused anger without a points cost is the best option - it makes long combats more viable for barbarians that select this power. Otherwise using it was too punitive.
Overall, I love the point-less system. Much easier to navigate, but the same effect. I'll have to get my players to modify their barbarians to playtest!
Love it!
Probably because secondary attack forms always use 1/2 Str modifier, and they wanted to be consistent with that.
Disregard; I'm retarded. I misread the ability.
Elemental Rage: Still too weak.
I agree this could SOMEHOW be improved, probably thru "shifting" some of the regular damage to Elemental, rather than adding more Elemental damage dice... It obviously works best with Greater 2 Weapon Fighting...
Low-Light Vision/Night Vision: Weak. Combine them into one ability, and then spice it up by giving the barbarian the ability to see through magical darkness at around eighth level.
Well, I would definitely like to see the "next level" of these, either as Tremor Sense or Improved Scent.
I think these Powers themselves could probably be improved by also reducing Miss Chance by 20% or something(Miss Chances higher than 20% would subtact 20%, Partial Concealment would be Nullified)
Swift Foot: Very “meh.” It’d be better as a single ability that automatically improved.
Even if it did, it would still be kindof "meh" given that Boots of Speed and the like exist. It would actually be very nice if it reduced Terrain Penalties in addition to the Speed Boost (and I agree automatically scaling with Barb. Level up to +15' wouldn't be OP, IMHO) Perhaps this one would work better by making it somewhat stronger, but keeping it as a Swift Action, rather than "always on during Rage"...?
Having Roused Anger without a points cost is the best option - it makes long combats more viable for barbarians that select this power. Otherwise using it was too punitive.
Well, there's no longer any Points Cost for the Roused Anger Rage, but now that it causes EXHAUSTION for (Rounds of Rage) MINUTES, it now very effectively cuts the Barbarian off from Raging for quite some time after this 2nd Rage. Since none of the other Powers increase the Fatigue Length anymore (with Point Cost removed), this is now the only thing that would give the Barbarian multi-minute Fatigues (Exhaustion),
which I think is a good thing.
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Overall, I think this is a big improvement. Definitely makes me more willing to run barbarians again (as a DM), and I don't think it takes anything away as a barbarian player. Some comments, pre-playtesting, below. Note if I don't comment on something, it means I like it just fine.
Rage (Ex): [...] A barbarian can enter rage as a free action.
Is this a deliberate change? (In 3.5, rage had to be entered on the barbarian's turn. With the flexibility (and vagueness, frankly) of free actions, a DM might allow the barbarian to rage at literally any time. I'd firm it up to match your intent. "A free action on the barbarian's turn"? "A immediate action?" Those are both very different from just a "free action."
Animal Fury (Ex)
This is much more reasonable, with the half-Strength bonus change. I still think this will be one of the most popular rage powers, however. A barbarian's combat role, after all, is damage-dealing, and this adds significantly to that.
Clear Mind (Ex)
Does this really need to be limited to 8th level? It seems like it would scale fine, going upward.
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex)
This might be a little too weak, now. I'd make it DR 1/- per 6 levels. (And of course it can't be selected more than once.)
Guarded Stance (Ex)
I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's probably too weak now. (By the time a barbarian has +4 to AC, +4 to AC is going to mean very little.) I'd change it to +1 per 5 or even +1 per 4 levels. Same with Rolling Dodge, BTW.
Knockback (Ex)
I like the use of Bull Rush, but I'm really not sure it needed to be changed to one target. It was a self-limiting power ... at some point, the barbarian would lose attacks by knocking foes away.
Powerful Blow (Ex)
Compare this to Animal Fury. It is significantly weaker. (Personally, I'd like to see them meet somewhere in the middle.)
Renewed Vigor (Ex)
This power is much, much too weak. With only one use per day, make its use a free or swift action. (Or even immediate.) Then you've got something that can save the barbarian's life in combat, rather than just being a little (compared to a barbarian's HPs) healing at the cost of being irrelevant in combat for a round.
Roused Anger (Ex)
I'd still like to see it clarified whether the fatigue penalties go away. (As written, they don't. For simplicity, I'd like them to. That way the player or DM can keep using his "raging" stats without stopping to recalculate stuff.
Terrifying Howl (Su)
This is a great change. Not only is it not too powerful for the barbarian (though it will still be a very popular power), it also encourages teamwork. The wizard gets one or two shaken with spells, the fighter does it with Intimidate or Dazzling Display, and the barbarian sends the knock-kneeds foes running for the hills. Very nice.
Unexpected Strike (Ex)
The languages needs clarifying, first. Is it "moves to be adjacent"? "Moves while adjacent"? Personally, why not "moves into one of the barbarian's threatened squares"? Can a longspear-wielding barbarian not use the power?
Again, I think this system is a winner. You've got round-by-round raging, which I think is great, but you've got simplified book-keeping, which I think is a necessity. Kick ass.
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A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. Is this a deliberate change? (In 3.5, rage had to be entered on the barbarian's turn. With the flexibility (and vagueness, frankly) of free actions, a DM might allow the barbarian to rage at literally any time. I'd firm it up to match your intent. "A free action on the barbarian's turn"? "A immediate action?" Those are both very different from just a "free action."
Free actions can only be taken when you can normally act, which means not during another's turn.
If Animal Fury uses the rules for natural secondary attacks, that can be misleading. The ability says you only bite, but some may mistake it to allow the bite as a second attack at -5. And would this qualify as a natural weapon, allowing the barbarian to take feats to improve it?
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Jason
Wow! Just... Wow!
If this is an example of option 2a, count me in!
While some have noted that more "tweaking" may be necessary, I feel this is definately on the right track! Can't wait to present it to my Rage Point hating test group to see how it plays. As a DM though, this simplfies alot of bookeeping issues I had with the points mechanic.
Now about that Ki point pool...
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If Animal Fury uses the rules for natural secondary attacks, that can be misleading. The ability says you only bite, but some may mistake it to allow the bite as a second attack at -5.
I don't understand. I don't read anything in the ability that makes it an exclusive attack (i.e., "instead of" rather than "in addition to" other attacks. Nor is it at -5, since it specifically says at full bonus. If the intent is that it be "instead of" other attacks, that needs to be clarified. (It should probably be clarified either way.)
And, BTW, if it is "instead of" other attacks, full Strength bonus to damage is fine.
And would this qualify as a natural weapon, allowing the barbarian to take feats to improve it?
Why not?
--Jeff
Yeah, it specifically said it was at full BAB...
It basically reads as: using this Swift Action, you may Bite Attack for X at full BAB.
Swift Actions don't otherwise have any effect on the rest of your actions, so there's no reason to expect this would, though it COULD be clarified to say that. It's not just in addition to your normal attacks though, this could be in addition to a Double Move, or (before starting) a Full-Round Casting Time Spell - Hell, I think you can even take a Swift Action in the same round as a Full Defense Action. A Swift Action doesn't impede anything else you might want to do in a round (unless that's a specific effect of a specific Swift Action.)
The main question for me is actually:
could you use this bite attack EXTRA times as part of a 2WF/ Greater 2WF attack? (say, if you don't have a 2nd weapon)
RAW, It doesn't necessarily support that, but logically, you'd think you COULD.
Likewise, if the Barbarian is otherwise "Unarmed", and an enemy provokes an AoO, would he be "Armed" with the Bite until the next Round?
Same thing applies to the Sorceror Bloodlines with Claws:
If they gain iterative attacks (say, multi-class Fighter/Sorceror), can they use them with the claws, even INSTEAD of 2 attacks at full BAB?
Unfortunately, I won't be able to playtest it for now, so my comments on it must be taken with that caveat in mind, but I read through the alternate rage system once and I must say that I like what I am seeing. I think this removes many of the problems that people have been complaining about, mainly the issue of tracking separate durations of rage powers and of rage points. Actually, I like it a lot (though I liked the point-based system too - this alternate one is even better) and it is a return to the root of the class, but still gives it something new with the rage powers. Kudos on this one.
Two comments on what I would like to see changed though:
1) Please add even more rage powers with out of combat uses, to make the Barbarian more interesting to play out of combat
2) Please remove the supernatural rage powers - they just don't fit the Barbarian
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The main question for me is actually:
could you use this bite attack EXTRA times as part of a 2WF/ Greater 2WF attack? [...] Same thing applies to the Sorceror Bloodlines with Claws:
If they gain iterative attacks (say, multi-class Fighter/Sorceror), can they use them with the claws, even INSTEAD of 2 attacks at full BAB?
Generally speaking, natural attacks work differently from iterative attacks; a natural attack doesn't get iterative attacks. (That's why, for example, a dire shark (+13 BAB) only has one attack.)
Likewise, if the Barbarian is otherwise "Unarmed", and an enemy provokes an AoO, would he be "Armed" with the Bite until the next Round?
Good point. The duration of the powers should be specified. (My guess is that most of them will end up "1 round," meaning the power will end just before the barbarian's next turn.)
--Jeff
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Consider me a dissenter on this.
These changes would gut my character. At ninth level I will be able to rage for a total of 26 rounds in a day, down from an average of about 30 or so with rage powers used.
I'll just go through the powers that Ogrhel has:
About the same. I have no quibble here.
Yet another die roll? seems more complicated than it need to be.
Sorry, but I like the feel of that huge burst of speed that tires you out a bit. I would never pick this ability as presented here.
This is too limiting. A few rage points and I can do this when I wish, instead of using up my AoO. Then you have to keep track of the 5 rounds it takes to recharge. I'd rather track my rage points and have more freedom to act as I see fit.
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I really like the rage points system, but this appears to be an improvement at first glance. I will test it out in my game before I can say anything for certain, but I give it a tentative thumbs up. Some of the powers still make me scratch my head (Elemental Rage and Guarded Stance, I'm looking at you), but those are minor gripes.
I do not like the Animal Fury as it is. It does not make any sense as a Ex ability. If it was made Supernatural and a description was given that fangs grow from the Barbarian's mouth than it would be OK.
ATM, the only image I get is this blood-eyed crazy muscle guy jumping on full-plated warriors trying to bite through their armor and breaking every single tooth they have. Same for any kind of creature that has good natural armor (like elephants).
As written, Animal Fury does not give the Barbarian a natural attack, but a one time special attack as a Swift Action.Good point. The duration of the powers should be specified. (My guess is that most of them will end up "1 round," meaning the power will end just before the barbarian's next turn.)
But like Freesword notes, Animal Fury's duration (as written) would LIKELY seem to be only for that Swift Action:
you don't necessarily gain a "Natural Attack" for the Round. This is really probably in the best interest of simplicity, so this stuff doesn't have to be worried about. In the final book, it'd just be nice to have 10% tighter wording so debates like this aren't needed. :-)Knockback: Yet another die roll? seems more complicated than it need to be.
This is just provisional wording, but as a "free" Bullrush, I'd guess it would work like the Shield Bash Feat, and use the same attack roll as the normal attack that triggers it. It's pretty reasonable IMHO, you shouldn't be able to Knockback Titans or Elder Dragons that you otherwise wouldn't be able to Bullrush, just by exploiting this one little Power.
Unexpected Strike:This is too limiting. A few rage points and I can do this when I wish, instead of using up my AoO. Then you have to keep track of the 5 rounds it takes to recharge.
I agree it should be disambiguated from Attacks of Opportunity, though I'm OK with it USING UP an AoO, I'd just rather it not be limited to an opponent MOVING adjacent to you, or moving at all. And actually, 1 Round = 6 seconds, I think it would take 10 Rounds to 'recharge' (that may be worse in your book :-)), but IS long enough that I almost wouldn't worry about tracking it precisely...
I definitely don't like this system. I'm the first one to say it? That's bad. :P
The majority of powers can now be used at will during a rage. The barbarian doesn't have to worry about dosing his strenght. He knows that whatever he does, he'll have that many rage rounds per day. Where's the roleplaying? Where's the unpredictability of a rage? Rage powers now grant long lasting bonus just like a spell does.
I liked this mechanic on the spot.
There is still a versatility but it is more simple than the Point System. And that suits the Babarian well.
I will playtest this version in the CotC Campaign over the next weeks.
It looks ok but seems to lack the flexibility of the current system.
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Rage Powers: As a barbarian gains experience, she learns to harness her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains one rage power. She gains an additional rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian can use her rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers are always active. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once. A barbarian can use the same power more than once during an individual rage. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions that must be performed on the barbarian’s turn.
I'm a little confused by this. I think it is good that powers can be used more than once during a rage - for example, in a grapple being able to bite more than once is probably a good thing.
But the way it is described, I almost wonder if you meant to say 'cannot'.
I guess since only one could be used each round (swift action) that might be what you meant - you could use the same power every round but then you couldn't choose to use a different one as well. Could you clarify that point?
Also, I'd really like to see the hit points as temporary hit points. If we want the character dying at the end of the rage they can take Die Hard and get the effect as a character choice, not a class feature. It will also help remove a tax on the cleric in terms of additional healing.
I'll offer it as an option to my player who is currently playing a barbarian in our Beta rules RoTRL.
I doubt he will go for it as he loves the current Beta system and he has no problem at all with the book keeping part, but I can see how this could satisfy the people who are not happy with the "rage points".
I like this different system even more than I do the original! Low-light and Night Vision could be combined and I still have no idea why the barbarian can make his weapons catch light etc., but other than that, it's a great idea!
This is much better than the current Beta version, but I still don't like the flavor of a barbarian doing elemental damage with his weapons. Please remove the Elemental Rage power.
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This is much better than the current Beta version, but I still don't like the flavor of a barbarian doing elemental damage with his weapons. Please remove the Elemental Rage power.
I, on the other hand, think that there are flavors of barbarian for which the power is absolutely perfect, and I would very much like to see it remain.
Rage Powers: Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once.
What about allowing them to take a rage power a second time to gain an additional use?
Animal Fury (Ex): If the bite hits, it deals 1d6 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d4 points of damage if Small) plus one half the barbarian’s Strength modifier.
That’s as much as a club or short sword, which is an awfully big mouth. Maybe it should be dropped down a step.
Clear Mind (Su):
I like the ability, but I’m not sure of the name; “clear mind” brings to mind an image of a serene barbarian. I’m thinking tenacious mind or something similar.
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for 1 round. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire.
Do they get any resistance to the same energy? What about 1d4 damage and resistance 5 to the same energy type?
Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against melee attacks for one round.
Rolling Dodge (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against ranged attacks for 1 round.
I don’t like these two. The barbarian takes an AC penalty because they’re swinging wildly to do more damage. It doesn’t make thematic sense to me that they can somehow increase their AC while raging.
Intimidating Glare (Ex): The barbarian can make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe.
Intimidate checks inevitably lead to looking up rules because they aren’t used much. What about a will save DC 10 + ½ barbarian level + Con modifier instead?
Low-Light Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gains low-light vision while raging.
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round.
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet for 1 round.
Not sure about these three. It seems too much like a task that requires concentration to use, which barbarians can’t do in a rage.
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a standard action, the barbarian heals 1d8 points of damage + her Constitution modifier.
I think it’s a little strange that they would actually heal themselves, but I like the intent. What about temporary hit points that go away at the end of the rage instead?
Terrifying Howl (Su): All shaken enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds.
Maybe Con instead of Str?
Unexpected Strike (Ex): The barbarian can make a free attack, at her highest attack bonus, against a foe that moves adjacent to the barbarian. Using this power is an immediate action that counts as an attack of opportunity.
I can see this one getting complicated in a fight. Maybe it could just be an additional attack of opportunity?
We went with the UA Barbarian Totem variant class abilities and subbed them right in for rage points.
Which closely resembled what we got coming from up top there. =P
We're still striking out the "supernatural" rage powers because they seem silly.
"Follow Thor! He can see in the dark."
"Really? How? He's human, right?"
"Yeah, but he can see in infrared as a rage ability."
"Why is he so angry that he is using rage?"
"He hates the dark"
Which also leads to if the barbarian already had lowlight as a racial they wouldnt need to pick it as a rage power for reasons of getting darkvision later.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I definitely don't like this system. I'm the first one to say it? That's bad. :P
The majority of powers can now be used at will during a rage. The barbarian doesn't have to worry about dosing his strenght. He knows that whatever he does, he'll have that many rage rounds per day. Where's the roleplaying? Where's the unpredictability of a rage? Rage powers now grant long lasting bonus just like a spell does.
1. Personally, I would consider this a feature, not a bug.
2. Role-playing is unaffected by this mechanic, or rage points, or rages per day.
3. The barbarian still has to dose his strength, since most powers can be used only once per round or (effectively, because of the cooldown period) once during a rage. Do you use your 1/minute power now or later? Do you use this swift action or that one? Use it now and you can't use it later or use another alternative.
This system isn't perfect. Some of the powers are still too weak (DR and healing) or too not-barbarian-y (elemental rage). Overall, though, I like it by far the best of the options I've seen for PF barbarians. A few tweaks and a few more rage powers (scent, natural armor, jumping, smashing magical barriers, and perhaps even a size increase if we want to get really freaky) and I think it'll be just about right.
2. Role-playing is unaffected by this mechanic, or rage points, or rages per day.
If a power doesn't consume rage points, you don't have to worry about the strenght you consume. I see a lot of roleplaying in keeping track of your resistance to hard exertion. It should be logic too: a normal rage taxes your strenght less than one with a guarded stance. Or dodging enemy attacks while raging is not more energy consuming than simply raging?
3. The barbarian still has to dose his strength, since most powers can be used only once per round or (effectively, because of the cooldown period) once during a rage. Do you use your 1/minute power now or later? Do you use this swift action or that one? Use it now and you can't use it later or use another alternative.
Most of the powers can be used once per round, yes, but... you can use them every round. Or did I miss something? :O
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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2. Role-playing is unaffected by this mechanic, or rage points, or rages per day.If a power doesn't consume rage points, you don't have to worry about the strenght you consume. I see a lot of roleplaying in keeping track of your resistance to hard exertion. It should be logic too: a normal rage taxes your strenght less than one with a guarded stance. Or dodging enemy attacks while raging is not more energy consuming than simply raging?
The role-playing of resource management, whether it be rounds of rage or which powers you use or when, doesn't seem to me to be that different whether your accounting is based on points, rounds, of duration, or uses of powers. YMMV.
3. The barbarian still has to dose his strength, since most powers can be used only once per round or (effectively, because of the cooldown period) once during a rage. Do you use your 1/minute power now or later? Do you use this swift action or that one? Use it now and you can't use it later or use another alternative.Most of the powers can be used once per round, yes, but... you can use them every round. Or did I miss something? :O
Some are one per round - but only one of them. You have to choose which it will be. Some are one per minute, so you have to choose in vs. the alternatives and also vs. use it now or later.
So you can use ONE power every round (as long as it's not a 1/min power), but you can't use EVERY power every round. I guess I still see that as resource management, assuming you have more than one power.
This is much better than the current Beta version, but I still don't like the flavor of a barbarian doing elemental damage with his weapons. Please remove the Elemental Rage power.
I agree that Elemental Rage does feel very different from all other powers. Barbarians are usually top of the list in low-fantasy settings, and giving them high fantasy powers seems an odd choice. While I don't have a problem with the core barbarian to be high-fantasy, maybe an inserted sidenote stating that this power may not be available in all campaigns could help. That or make a feat out of it.
Other than that, love the new mechanic. This system also open opportunities for new rage-oriented feat. Thumbs-up!
'findel
If a power doesn't consume rage points, you don't have to worry about the strenght you consume. I see a lot of roleplaying in keeping track of your resistance to hard exertion. It should be logic too: a normal rage taxes your strenght less than one with a guarded stance. Or dodging enemy attacks while raging is not more energy consuming than simply raging?
I see your point, but I partially disagree. I see roleplay opportunities in ability management, but character management does not necessarily equal roleplaying in itself.
Being looser, this system offers more theatrics. I see that as opportunities for roleplaying just as well.
'findel